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Post by kittens on Feb 17, 2018 1:25:18 GMT -5
What's so bad about the other people that you wouldn't want your children with them, but you feel comfortable with a man who is charged with molesting children, being with your children? It must be something pretty horrendous if that man is the 'lessor evil'. Yes, if you read what I wrote and it's not something I'll divulge because it won't really matter to you either way.....most that it will matter to already know
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Post by snow on Feb 17, 2018 11:46:28 GMT -5
Yes, if you read what I wrote and it's not something I'll divulge because it won't really matter to you either way.....most that it will matter to already know I don't know the victim in this case but I know the man who went to court and his extended family. I would not let any of my children enter any of their homes with or without me. Howitis - you are either blind or not privy to historical facts about him and the extended family. Thank you for giving us the other side of the story too. Obviously someone is being deluded. But that's exactly how these things keep happening. The whole story doesn't get revealed and leaves people uninformed to the point where it's dangerous.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2018 12:09:07 GMT -5
I wish I could have confronted my rapist, but he was a stranger and I never knew him. I too would love to be able to ask him his reasons, what led him to do something so abusive! I take it from your post that you did confront your abuser and did find out why. How I wish I could do that as I think it might just help me understand. We all ask, why me, what did I do, what was there about me that I was chosen etc. I will never get the answer. Your post triggered so many thoughts, which I guess is good... Anyway... your term CONFROT... was like a blow, to me. And I really couldn't get beyond it. It's not the way I wanted to go. I knew there was something wrong about it. At least from my teachings, and considering's. To use a Star Wars analogy, and imo, it is the dark side of the force. I don't think I would have gotten an honest answer, either. I don't think I have much in common with folks who feel they are scared for life. I do feel that feeling you are a victim, is a way of keeping you in bondage. It hurts me to see this way continuing to go on. And motivating people, to use another movie analogy, as a license to kill. There is no satisfactory answer. None that will make sense in a perfect and just world, among perfect and just people. Even when it can be articulated. Imo, feeling the victim has it's place, such as sorting out feelings of what could I have done to prevent, mourning, and it IS liberating,... just to name a few, but eventually I found it be a hollow dead end.
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Post by magpie on Feb 17, 2018 16:53:57 GMT -5
Antinomian Priests and workers!!! Antinomian---persons who believe that christians are released by grace from the obligation of observing the moral law.
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Post by snow on Feb 17, 2018 17:29:29 GMT -5
I wish I could have confronted my rapist, but he was a stranger and I never knew him. I too would love to be able to ask him his reasons, what led him to do something so abusive! I take it from your post that you did confront your abuser and did find out why. How I wish I could do that as I think it might just help me understand. We all ask, why me, what did I do, what was there about me that I was chosen etc. I will never get the answer. Your post triggered so many thoughts, which I guess is good... Anyway... your term CONFROT... was like a blow, to me. And I really couldn't get beyond it. It's not the way I wanted to go. I knew there was something wrong about it. At least from my teachings, and considering's. To use a Star Wars analogy, and imo, it is the dark side of the force. I don't think I would have gotten an honest answer, either. I don't think I have much in common with folks who feel they are scared for life. I do feel that feeling you are a victim, is a way of keeping you in bondage. It hurts me to see this way continuing to go on. And motivating people, to use another movie analogy, as a license to kill. There is no satisfactory answer. None that will make sense in a perfect and just world, among perfect and just people. Even when it can be articulated. Imo, feeling the victim has it's place, such as sorting out feelings of what could I have done to prevent, mourning, and it IS liberating,... just to name a few, but eventually I found it be a hollow dead end. I'm glad I have pretty much got over mine years ago. It's always there of course when we hear about others, but for me the impact isn't great. I have always thought of myself and others that have been sexually abused as survivors. I always refer to myself that way and anyone else. I don't go for the victim mentality. I would love to know why, but I am a survivor, and much stronger for the experience. I feel bad for those who do think of themselves and others as victims, because I think it's too easy to get stuck in a victim mindset and I just don't think that's a healthy place to be. I'm glad you have come to terms with it. I thought you said that you did ask your abuser why? I must have misunderstood you.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2018 19:35:33 GMT -5
Thanks Dennis, I agree with the 1st part. Could you expand on the last sentence? Regards, I think Dennis Echoes a sentiment of several here, including myself. He'll correct me if I'm mistaken. There are perhaps a majority of workers who see professing in the truth as equivalent to Salvation*. I know that this doesn't include all workers, and I suspect that it's kind of the same situation with the friends. When all together, it's easy to go along with the "Salvation via professing through the workers" and " this is the one true way" line, but it's much harder to believe it in your mind and heart. I was in that situation for several years before we left meetings, and the more I listened carefully, the more that the unspoken Assumption of were the only saved people would be apparent in the words and deeds of the friends and workers. Again not all believe it, and I don't condemn those who stay in. I do appreciate people who are in it and who are actively taking a stand for what's right though. Including, in reference to the OP, child abuse. * I had asked this of a worker who had been put out of the work after several decades just this last year, and although he didn't believe it to be, and still likes the friends and the workers, he was under the impression that the majority of the workers believe it to be the one true way. Thanks ipsedixit, Dennis's was just too cryptic for me to be certain.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2018 21:53:05 GMT -5
For being as I am ( cryptic) may I deeply appogize? Even now, I find nothing cryptic in my response. I just am what I am, and am hardly able to even post here, my end is just that close. Where I have hurt, offended any, please, please accept my apology.
My responses here are discussed with the natural love in my life at this time. She has no desire to even meet or talk with workers by what she has read and knows of them. Nor is she the only one to perceive them in this way. It is both embarrassing and shameful for me to have to confess once I was in near lock step agreement with them. However, I surely was which brings me grief now. Not with the ideals, but with the reality.
Are there simply none here that can understand. If not, then it is way passed time for me to even post here..
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Post by howitis on Feb 18, 2018 2:42:55 GMT -5
I don't know the victim in this case but I know the man who went to court and his extended family. I would not let any of my children enter any of their homes with or without me. Howitis - you are either blind or not privy to historical facts about him and the extended family. Thank you for giving us the other side of the story too. Obviously someone is being deluded. But that's exactly how these things keep happening. The whole story doesn't get revealed and leaves people uninformed to the point where it's dangerous. Very sad when we judge according to who our family is and what they've done! Whilst I agree there are "historical facts" and I do happen to know of certain truths about extended family members I still maintain my children would be safe visiting this mans home. I certainly hope there are no skeletons in either of your family's closets....lest you be judged by them.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Feb 18, 2018 5:35:12 GMT -5
Howtis & snow, I've read a bit of your recent exchange here. Thank you. And Ross too. My question has been, how does one "reach" an offender, in an effective way. And in a Godly way as well. My presumption is, it is as a friend. They are the only ones that are likely to be effective. Unfortunately, many ex's have burned or damaged those kind of bridges. So that can make it rough from the get go, in spite of good, justified, one might even say holy desires. It is a matter of meaningful communication we wrestle with. How do you approach a perpetrator as a friend, when you have been the victim. As a victim, with that desire, I realized the start of that process began with me. I can't explain how that process worked exactly. But I have found it can happen. Call it God, I don't know. The odd thing is, and maybe you know this, is that once that inside transformation starts to take hold, your outlook changes too, and you want to know, genuinely, with curiosity, what went on in their mind, in the dynamic? The answer I got was it seemed so right!? How could something that seems so right (such natural God given desires I guess) be so wrong? Didn't you want to know, ... experience? Too? No, I didn't want to. I went along, because I didn't have a whole lot of choice. It is confusing. It is amazing what you can deal with as a kid. I don't want to go on. but anyway... I think it was effective, and I think it helped us both. I know I'm at peace. I wish I could have confronted my rapist, but he was a stranger and I never knew him. I too would love to be able to ask him his reasons, what led him to do something so abusive! I take it from your post that you did confront your abuser and did find out why. How I wish I could do that as I think it might just help me understand. We all ask, why me, what did I do, what was there about me that I was chosen etc. I will never get the answer. Rape isn't about sexual needs, might be about sexual frustrations and not necessarily with the victim. Most times it's about being in control. Sad part is, that's when they have the least control.
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Post by snow on Feb 18, 2018 12:10:18 GMT -5
Thank you for giving us the other side of the story too. Obviously someone is being deluded. But that's exactly how these things keep happening. The whole story doesn't get revealed and leaves people uninformed to the point where it's dangerous. Very sad when we judge according to who our family is and what they've done! Whilst I agree there are "historical facts" and I do happen to know of certain truths about extended family members I still maintain my children would be safe visiting this mans home. I certainly hope there are no skeletons in either of your family's closets....lest you be judged by them. It's not me that said anything about the families. I know nothing about any of them and I specifically talked about the abuser. Not their family. You were the one that said you would rather have your children in the homes of his family vs the homes of the victims family. Not me. I'm not the one judging anything. I was asking for opinions. And you know that's true. We have two different opinions yours and Kittens. I merely said that when there is two different opinions that one side is deluded. I never said which because I don't know.
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Post by howitis on Feb 18, 2018 20:20:37 GMT -5
Very sad when we judge according to who our family is and what they've done! Whilst I agree there are "historical facts" and I do happen to know of certain truths about extended family members I still maintain my children would be safe visiting this mans home. I certainly hope there are no skeletons in either of your family's closets....lest you be judged by them. It's not me that said anything about the families. I know nothing about any of them and I specifically talked about the abuser. Not their family. You were the one that said you would rather have your children in the homes of his family vs the homes of the victims family. Not me. I'm not the one judging anything. I was asking for opinions. And you know that's true. We have two different opinions yours and Kittens. I merely said that when there is two different opinions that one side is deluded. I never said which because I don't know. I think I said his home not that of his extended family
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Post by snow on Feb 18, 2018 21:46:09 GMT -5
It's not me that said anything about the families. I know nothing about any of them and I specifically talked about the abuser. Not their family. You were the one that said you would rather have your children in the homes of his family vs the homes of the victims family. Not me. I'm not the one judging anything. I was asking for opinions. And you know that's true. We have two different opinions yours and Kittens. I merely said that when there is two different opinions that one side is deluded. I never said which because I don't know. I think I said his home not that of his extended family I have gone back over the whole conversation and no where did I mention family or judge the family. I think you may be thinking of what kittens said and they did bring up the extended family and the history of the man involved and his family. You did say home, as you state here. But I never said anything about family or judging them. I did ask you why you wouldn't want your children in the victims home, vs the abusers home. No where did I judge the family or anyone for that matter. I asked questions.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2018 22:32:42 GMT -5
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Post by howitis on Feb 19, 2018 0:32:10 GMT -5
I think I said his home not that of his extended family I have gone back over the whole conversation and no where did I mention family or judge the family. I think you may be thinking of what kittens said and they did bring up the extended family and the history of the man involved and his family. You did say home, as you state here. But I never said anything about family or judging them. I did ask you why you wouldn't want your children in the victims home, vs the abusers home. No where did I judge the family or anyone for that matter. I asked questions. Yes snow so did I, I know I'm sorry I actually pushed the quote button that included yours and kittens writings I did this in the hope of clarifying the situation to you both
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2018 14:58:51 GMT -5
For being as I am ( cryptic) may I deeply appogize? Even now, I find nothing cryptic in my response. I just am what I am, and am hardly able to even post here, my end is just that close. Where I have hurt, offended any, please, please accept my apology.
My responses here are discussed with the natural love in my life at this time. She has no desire to even meet or talk with workers by what she has read and knows of them. Nor is she the only one to perceive them in this way. It is both embarrassing and shameful for me to have to confess once I was in near lock step agreement with them. However, I surely was which brings me grief now. Not with the ideals, but with the reality.
Are there simply none here that can understand. If not, then it is way passed time for me to even post here.. Dear fellow warrior, Thank you for yours. "...cryptic..." I'm just not as bright as some. So wanted to be sure. Maybe I didn't even use the right word? Have I felt offended? Hurt? Betrayed? Probably, here and there along the way. C'est la vie It is of no matter. for me at least toward you. I trust that you have been honest all along, as I have tried to be too. That's enough for me. Regarding your service in "the truth"; Perhaps I had the good fortune to see early so many of the ideals that you and many others do. Starting in my teens with, it's not the denomination you're in, its your relationship with God. This all happened for me "under the sound of the Gospel", and, all the rest. So perhaps I've had a different outlook of, and graciousness toward the friends and workers. You and your fellow workers, and the friends, did me no harm,(mostly). I thank God for every moment I had in what is referred to, merely as a convenience, as the 2x2's. Your apology I'm sure is appreciated by any who feel they were led astray. Hopefully they will appreciate some day it was all part of a good journey, and then, that none is any longer needed. Thanks for looking for an opportunity between us here, My Best Regards, Keith
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2018 13:11:02 GMT -5
Yes Jesus does put people's children in danger of criminal child sexual abuse. I mean it in this way. Jesus, as has been long argued here, is God, they are, as Jesus Christ himself said in his prayer in John, one and the same. As you know, and as we are coming to know better and better these days, God has been allowing this to go on for a long long time. Including not just by high ups, but actually inside many Christian churches. Why do you think he's been allowing this to go on? I can't explain it. Evil exists and selfishness exists and all is not perfection and these things happen wherever people exist and I think we all accept that - but where it goes off the rails is to pretend it doesn't exist or rationalize it away as is now becoming more difficult to do. God didn't make a perfect robot-world of stunting sameness and free of challenges but thats no reason to excuse evil in others or in ourselves or in our organizations. True, So, you are excusing the all powerful, all seeing, all knowing God. Should born again Christians, who are now part of the body of Christ, act like God has. to me, either the answer is no we shouldn't, God has been wrong to have done nothing, or very little. or there's something we don't understand, as to why inaction is and has been acceptable.
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Post by blandie on Feb 20, 2018 13:34:40 GMT -5
True, So, you are excusing the all powerful, all seeing, all knowing God. Should born again Christians, who are now part of the body of Christ, act like God has. to me, either the answer is no we shouldn't, God has been wrong to have done nothing, or very little. or there's something we don't understand, as to why inaction is and has been acceptable. Putting the blame where it lies is not excusing god. Its as ridiculous to blame god for what men do as it is to blame the government for actions committed by criminals or for me to blame you because your daughter shoplifted - how dare you not have kept her locked away from birth so that she would never have any opportunity to harm shop owners? God set up a perfect world but it was man who rebelled and god could have solved the problem right there and then by killing off man permanently and populating eden with angels with no free will.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2018 19:59:14 GMT -5
Ah yes, where to draw the line for blame... How we deal with that question among ourselves is I think, what God is the most interested in.
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