|
Post by CherieKropp on Jul 6, 2013 16:40:27 GMT -5
They're all there? As I've pointed out earlier, I dont find:
Fern Strouse's letter in the letters or stories
Lisa's story isnt in BTS in the CSA Story board
Marge Reynolds story isnt there
Likely, these some of these omissions are just an oversight, or lack of time...and others are deliberate.
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Jul 6, 2013 16:55:33 GMT -5
No, you just can't be anti 2x2 to write in a story to Wings. That is what this thread is about. So, if a worker or one of the friends or even your dad sexually assaulted you as a member of the 2x2s, and you submit your story to Wings, and tell them that the workers lied like dogs to cover for the fellowship, because the image of the fellowship is all that matters, then even though what you wrote is true and factual, Wings current policy is probably not to publish it because it will likely be deemed anti 2x2. But, if you can write in a sweet letter, saying that the poor misunderstood workers were just products of their time, and absolve the fellowship of all responsibility, and blame the issue on family dysfunction, then that letter will in all likely hood be published. Sac, do you realise you could do a lot of damage spreading lies like that? I think all the letters that relate to CSA within the fellowship are currently available here: wingsfortruth.info/breaking-the-silence-2/victim-stories/They're also here: wingsbts.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=storiesWhich ones fit your ridiculous criteria? ...a sweet letter, saying that the poor misunderstood workers were just products of their time, and absolve the fellowship of all responsibility, and blame the issue on family dysfunction, then that letter will in all likely hood be published.WINGS shouldn't be bullied into keeping all these stories there indefinitely, but for now at least they are there and what you're saying is a lie. Here are the offenders: wingsfortruth.info/breaking-the-silence-2/convicted-csa-offenders/As usual, more stuff made up out of thin air. Sac and a few others could keep half a dozen people busy just answering their speculations. Come to think of it, they are. The problem is that it takes much less time to make a sweeping statement than to refute it.
|
|
|
Post by emy on Jul 6, 2013 17:11:15 GMT -5
This seems inflammatory AND less than truthful to me:
sacerdotal said:
Any reason this might not be the truth, part of the time?
I don't think anyone is willing to absolve the fellowship of all responsibility. And descriptives like "poor misunderstood" are clearly intended to stir up negative emotion in that context.
|
|
|
Post by sacerdotal on Jul 6, 2013 17:20:04 GMT -5
No, you just can't be anti 2x2 to write in a story to Wings. That is what this thread is about. So, if a worker or one of the friends or even your dad sexually assaulted you as a member of the 2x2s, and you submit your story to Wings, and tell them that the workers lied like dogs to cover for the fellowship, because the image of the fellowship is all that matters, then even though what you wrote is true and factual, Wings current policy is probably not to publish it because it will likely be deemed anti 2x2. But, if you can write in a sweet letter, saying that the poor misunderstood workers were just products of their time, and absolve the fellowship of all responsibility, and blame the issue on family dysfunction, then that letter will in all likely hood be published. Sac, do you realise you could do a lot of damage spreading lies like that? I think all the letters that relate to CSA within the fellowship are currently available here: wingsfortruth.info/breaking-the-silence-2/victim-stories/They're also here: wingsbts.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=storiesWhich ones fit your ridiculous criteria? ...a sweet letter, saying that the poor misunderstood workers were just products of their time, and absolve the fellowship of all responsibility, and blame the issue on family dysfunction, then that letter will in all likely hood be published.WINGS shouldn't be bullied into keeping all these stories there indefinitely, but for now at least they are there and what you're saying is a lie. Here are the offenders: wingsfortruth.info/breaking-the-silence-2/convicted-csa-offenders/Sorry, I will write with a bigger font next time, sort of like someone shouting to a person that doesn't understand English, and hope that they will understand what is being said. Those that call me liars lose creditability with those that know me and understand that I would rather cut off a finger than knowingly or purposefully lie. I respect your right to censor the victim letters. By all means, go for it. And I don't really care if you respect my position that censoring the victim letters to cover for the fellowship is like you taking the knife that you censor with and cut them all over again. But, calling me a liar is not only out of bounds, it proves to me, as I tell my kids, that your pen has ran out of ink. Now, where did I do this so called prevaricating?
|
|
|
Post by sacerdotal on Jul 6, 2013 17:21:12 GMT -5
As usual, more stuff made up out of thin air. Sac and a few others could keep half a dozen people busy just answering their speculations. Come to think of it, they are. The problem is that it takes much less time to make a sweeping statement than to refute it. Mr. Hat, you might want to brush up on your reading before choosing a horse to ride. Just sayin.
|
|
|
Post by sacerdotal on Jul 6, 2013 17:55:52 GMT -5
No, you just can't be anti 2x2 to write in a story to Wings. That is what this thread is about. So, if a worker or one of the friends or even your dad sexually assaulted you as a member of the 2x2s, and you submit your story to Wings, and tell them that the workers lied like dogs to cover for the fellowship, because the image of the fellowship is all that matters, then even though what you wrote is true and factual, Wings current policy is probably not to publish it because it will likely be deemed anti 2x2. But, if you can write in a sweet letter, saying that the poor misunderstood workers were just products of their time, and absolve the fellowship of all responsibility, and blame the issue on family dysfunction, then that letter will in all likely hood be published. Sac, do you realise you could do a lot of damage spreading lies like that? I think all the letters that relate to CSA within the fellowship are currently available here: wingsfortruth.info/breaking-the-silence-2/victim-stories/They're also here: wingsbts.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=storiesWhich ones fit your ridiculous criteria? ...a sweet letter, saying that the poor misunderstood workers were just products of their time, and absolve the fellowship of all responsibility, and blame the issue on family dysfunction, then that letter will in all likely hood be published.WINGS shouldn't be bullied into keeping all these stories there indefinitely, but for now at least they are there and what you're saying is a lie. Here are the offenders: wingsfortruth.info/breaking-the-silence-2/convicted-csa-offenders/Hi Fixit, So, let me get this straight, since you tell me that I am lying. Can a person or can a person not have an anti-2x2 letter written in and published? All of this is much ado about nothing? Those links to Brad's site are OK, or to Cherie's site are OK? I was just misunderstanding your position that you weren't trying to make the place more 2x2 friendly- something that Scott had suggested was part of the reason for moving the victim stories. So, if a victim writes in saying that the workers are hellspawn that cover for one another like they did when he was fondled by a worker, and if it were up to him, the whole cult should be investigated by the FBI, you would publish that letter? What if I were to help a victim write a letter, and openly tell you that I was helping a victim write a letter, would you publish it? I have heard that many professing people were quite mad that Jean's letter was published because Cherie helped write it. That is what I said, ANTI 2x2 letters ARE NOT WELCOME on Wings. If I am wrong, please call me a liar again, and I will try and figure out what you are trying to say. By the way, are you a member of the Wings board that helps make these decisions?
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Jul 6, 2013 18:21:28 GMT -5
Hi Fixit, So, let me get this straight, since you tell me that I am lying. Can a person or can a person not have an anti-2x2 letter written in and published? All of this is much ado about nothing? Those links to Brad's site are OK, or to Cherie's site are OK? I was just misunderstanding your position that you weren't trying to make the place more 2x2 friendly- something that Scott had suggested was part of the reason for moving the victim stories. So, if a victim writes in saying that the workers are hellspawn that cover for one another like they did when he was fondled by a worker, and if it were up to him, the whole cult should be investigated by the FBI, you would publish that letter? What if I were to help a victim write a letter, and openly tell you that I was helping a victim write a letter, would you publish it? I have heard that many professing people were quite mad that Jean's letter was published because Cherie helped write it. That is what I said, ANTI 2x2 letters ARE NOT WELCOME on Wings. If I am wrong, please call me a liar again, and I will try and figure out what you are trying to say. By the way, are you a member of the Wings board that helps make these decisions? I think most people realize that several of the letters have already been edited. Those that had help writing them, obviously had them edited by the one who helped them write their story. Others were written by the individual, and then had some names edited out and some other details in order to comply with libel issues. If a person writes an anti 2x2 letter, then no, we won't include it on WINGS. The way you worded that question means that the whole purpose would be about the church, and not abuse. We will probably contact the writers of the current letters for permission to keep them posted, as there are some we have no permission on file with WINGS currently. However, as Cherie and others have pointed out, most letters are posted elsewhere, and judging by the reactions of some here, WINGS isn't a credible place for the letters anyhow.....
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Jul 6, 2013 18:26:59 GMT -5
It should be pointed out that there is an appropriate place on the BTS board where people can post their experiences in their own words, as long as they post within the guidelines of proboards in regard to libel. In fact, there ARE stories written there by people which are not included in the group of lstories everyone is making a fuss about. Marie's story is one of those, and another got us a warning from proboards because the alleged perp contacted them and complained.
|
|
|
Post by sacerdotal on Jul 6, 2013 18:28:03 GMT -5
Hi Fixit, So, let me get this straight, since you tell me that I am lying. Can a person or can a person not have an anti-2x2 letter written in and published? All of this is much ado about nothing? Those links to Brad's site are OK, or to Cherie's site are OK? I was just misunderstanding your position that you weren't trying to make the place more 2x2 friendly- something that Scott had suggested was part of the reason for moving the victim stories. So, if a victim writes in saying that the workers are hellspawn that cover for one another like they did when he was fondled by a worker, and if it were up to him, the whole cult should be investigated by the FBI, you would publish that letter? What if I were to help a victim write a letter, and openly tell you that I was helping a victim write a letter, would you publish it? I have heard that many professing people were quite mad that Jean's letter was published because Cherie helped write it. That is what I said, ANTI 2x2 letters ARE NOT WELCOME on Wings. If I am wrong, please call me a liar again, and I will try and figure out what you are trying to say. By the way, are you a member of the Wings board that helps make these decisions? I think most people realize that several of the letters have already been edited. Those that had help writing them, obviously had them edited by the one who helped them write their story. Others were written by the individual, and then had some names edited out and some other details in order to comply with libel issues. If anperson writes an anti 2x2 letter, then no, we won't include it on WINGS. The way you worded that question means that the whole purpose would be about the church, and not abuse. We will probably contact the writers of the current letters for permission to keep them posted, as there are some we have no permission on file with WINGS currently. However, as Cherie and others have pointed out, most letters are posted elsewhere, and judging by the reactions of some here, WINGS isn't a credible place for the letters anyhow..... Thank you, Scott. I appreciate honesty, even if I don't agree with the policy. So, as I wrote before, ANTI 2x2 Letters from Victims ARE NOT WELCOME ON WINGS. But, if a victim writes in and is nice about how they word their victimization, then their letter will more than likely be published. Can you let me know which stories currently do not meet Wings standards. I could help the victim re-write the story to be more 2x2 palatable. "The workers were very nice when they lied to me. They smiled, and said, just pray that the Lord will lead you to a place to where you can forgive your brother, and then your healing can begin. I love the workers and friends. Even though they covered up the abuse, and didn't believe me when I told them my story, it isn't their fault. It was all family dysfunction in my own family, the 2x2s didn't have anything to do with it. Even the worker that crept into my room and fondled me always seemed to have a good word in the Gospel meeting the next night. I know that he was just a troubled Godly man- very much like David. They say you always remember the one that brought you the gospel- I certainly remember him. How beautiful are the feet of those that carry the gospel. Thank you Wings for publishing my story. I don't want any of the friends to think ill of the fellowship, and I hope that my story can be an inspiration to other victims to come forward openly and honestly and tell their story. I know that it will be very much like mine."
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Jul 6, 2013 19:09:02 GMT -5
Are you pro-2x2 or anti-2x2? ** Does a person have to be either one? No, you just can't be anti 2x2 to write in a story to Wings. That is what this thread is about. So, if a worker or one of the friends or even your dad sexually assaulted you as a member of the 2x2s, and you submit your story to Wings, and tell them that the workers lied like dogs to cover for the fellowship, because the image of the fellowship is all that matters, then even though what you wrote is true and factual, Wings current policy is probably not to publish it because it will likely be deemed anti 2x2. Sac, I'm not sure whether me calling it a lie was helpful but I wish you would think about what you're saying. To suggest that a victim has to be pro-2x2 is ridiculous, not right, not true, misleading to say the least. WINGS is neither pro-2x2 nor anti-2x2. WINGS is very much anti-CSA. There are plenty of other websites that are anti-2x2. To further its objectives WINGS needs to be neither anti-2x2 nor pro-2x2. Check out the stories currently posted: www.wingsfortruth.info/breaking-the-silence-2/victim-stories/They're also here: www.wingsbts.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=stories
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Jul 6, 2013 19:23:59 GMT -5
Scott wrote: Marie's story is one of those...
I read Marie's letter, but I didnt see find her story - not all in one piece, that is...could you provide a link to it? Maybe its in the private board?
I've encouraged her to write her story, and she's never mentioned that she already has written it, so I'm confused.
|
|
|
Post by sacerdotal on Jul 6, 2013 19:24:50 GMT -5
No, you just can't be anti 2x2 to write in a story to Wings. That is what this thread is about. So, if a worker or one of the friends or even your dad sexually assaulted you as a member of the 2x2s, and you submit your story to Wings, and tell them that the workers lied like dogs to cover for the fellowship, because the image of the fellowship is all that matters, then even though what you wrote is true and factual, Wings current policy is probably not to publish it because it will likely be deemed anti 2x2. But, if you can write in a sweet letter, saying that the poor misunderstood workers were just products of their time, and absolve the fellowship of all responsibility, and blame the issue on family dysfunction, then that letter will in all likely hood be published. Sac, do you realise you could do a lot of damage spreading lies like that? I think all the letters that relate to CSA within the fellowship are currently available here: wingsfortruth.info/breaking-the-silence-2/victim-stories/They're also here: wingsbts.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=storiesWhich ones fit your ridiculous criteria? ...a sweet letter, saying that the poor misunderstood workers were just products of their time, and absolve the fellowship of all responsibility, and blame the issue on family dysfunction, then that letter will in all likely hood be published.WINGS shouldn't be bullied into keeping all these stories there indefinitely, but for now at least they are there and what you're saying is a lie. Here are the offenders: wingsfortruth.info/breaking-the-silence-2/convicted-csa-offenders/Thank you for the grace shown in your post. I appreciate it. I understand Wings position. I do. I was just showing how preposterous it is to expect some victims to have to play nice about what they say about the 2x2s to have their letters published. If they want to call it a cult, so be it. It doesn't make it a cult. If Wings won't publish their story, they will take it elsewhere and then write that Wings wouldn't accept their story. I understand Wings position- try and make the site more palatable to the 2x2s as the goal of the site is to help foster an environment of change within the 2x2s- and some of the victim letters were seen as a hindering that goal. I just have a differing opinion. I will try and hit my hands with a hammer the next time I want to comment on this subject so as not to keep beating this dead horse.
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Jul 6, 2013 19:58:24 GMT -5
I think most people realize that several of the letters have already been edited. Those that had help writing them, obviously had them edited by the one who helped them write their story. Others were written by the individual, and then had some names edited out and some other details in order to comply with libel issues. If anperson writes an anti 2x2 letter, then no, we won't include it on WINGS. The way you worded that question means that the whole purpose would be about the church, and not abuse. We will probably contact the writers of the current letters for permission to keep them posted, as there are some we have no permission on file with WINGS currently. However, as Cherie and others have pointed out, most letters are posted elsewhere, and judging by the reactions of some here, WINGS isn't a credible place for the letters anyhow..... Thank you, Scott. I appreciate honesty, even if I don't agree with the policy. So, as I wrote before, ANTI 2x2 Letters from Victims ARE NOT WELCOME ON WINGS. But, if a victim writes in and is nice about how they word their victimization, then their letter will more than likely be published. Can you let me know which stories currently do not meet Wings standards. I could help the victim re-write the story to be more 2x2 palatable. "The workers were very nice when they lied to me. They smiled, and said, just pray that the Lord will lead you to a place to where you can forgive your brother, and then your healing can begin. I love the workers and friends. Even though they covered up the abuse, and didn't believe me when I told them my story, it isn't their fault. It was all family dysfunction in my own family, the 2x2s didn't have anything to do with it. Even the worker that crept into my room and fondled me always seemed to have a good word in the Gospel meeting the next night. I know that he was just a troubled Godly man- very much like David. They say you always remember the one that brought you the gospel- I certainly remember him. How beautiful are the feet of those that carry the gospel. Thank you Wings for publishing my story. I don't want any of the friends to think ill of the fellowship, and I hope that my story can be an inspiration to other victims to come forward openly and honestly and tell their story. I know that it will be very much like mine."
I responded to your question: about whether an anti 2x2 letter would be included in letters we have posted and listed on WINGS. Your question had nothing to do with abuse. Would you consider Bob's letters to be anti 2x2? I don't. I think they are very well written, they explain his experiences in detail, and they also include descriptions of the atmosphere that promotes abuse within the fellowship. However, they don't talk about the history, the doctrine etc. They also list names of workers involved, but not in a way that would be considered libel. His abuser is dead, and in his other letter he listed the names of people involved (which is fine as they don't accuse anyone of illegal activity. Here is an excerpt from one of his letters. And no..... I don't consider this to be bashing the 2x2's, but rather explaining just how abuse is allowed to continue: This inadequacy of the ministry in dealing with CSA has for generations enabled child molestation to persist unchecked in this fellowship, and by so doing the ministry has also not acceptably contributed to the health of the core human relationship they profess to promote and support – marriage. I perceive that in the minds of many workers (probably all who fancy themselves capable of counseling couples), marriage is a contractual arrangement which lends morality to one of man’s most basic and primal needs – without any regard for and scarce knowledge of human sexuality. This is reprehensible. It matters not what scripture they find to remedy a troubled marriage – if the problem stems from unrecognized fallout from CSA they will offer nothing but window-dressing to the problem. That is unacceptable for a generation that expects marriage to be the most comfortable and intimate relationship of their lives – for the rest of their lives. Human beings are not machines that can be wound up and made to tick like a clock to deliver someone else’s message – they are individuals with sensitivities that can be traumatized and psyches that can be destroyed, and they need to be cared for so they can reflect the sensitivities necessary to sustain comfortable intimacy. Intimate relationships cannot be directed by outsiders and the dynamics of the relationship cannot be legislated. Unfortunately most workers who counsel seem to believe that advising, directing, and even legislating is counseling. Professional counseling is none of that.
I am sixty years old and I feel greatly blessed today with my position in life. I am a very comfortably adjusted individual, and I modestly claim that I am very highly thought of and respected by my family and my close friends. My resolution of the problems occurring from that past experience have proven valuable to me in recent years when I found myself confronted with another equally traumatizing situation – but that is another story. Importantly, it has taken me at least forty years to articulate the insights I have mentioned here. If anyone wants to help others, I implore you to be patient with them – you are not a professional counselor but you can provide empathy. Chances are the person you want to help does not fully understand his own problem, so you are not in any position to wind him up and send him on his way.
I sometimes wonder what happened to the guys my age who stopped coming to conventions before the time when I could talk to them about this. I know of at least 30 boys within 5-years of my age from my home town who have been at that convention as adolescents, and there are as many as fifteen other fields of workers in that region of Canada whose families have all attended conventions Harold was known to frequent. There is no telling how many boys a brazen man like Harold had molested over his lifetime.
I also become extremely annoyed with people who, because of predators like Harold who molest young males, advocate that homosexuals be singled out for censure and segregation because of their danger to children. My experience with Harold did absolutely nothing to influence my sexual orientation – we are hardwired with our sexuality at birth and no one knows what to do to change anything in that respect. Furthermore, I don’t even know for sure that Harold confined himself to male victims – child predators have been known target both sexes. Harold did have one known incident with his mature adult companion. Today I understand that my incident with Harold was not primarily a homosexual experience – it was a child molestation experience. In any case, the vast majority of homosexuals I know are not interested in children of either sex and they are not inclined to sexual assault. What we can do something about is protect our children from the people who want to molest them – child predators specifically. We have an obligation to both educate and protect all our children, including any who find themselves to be homosexual, from child molestation of any sexual bent. It is the abuse and molestation that damages lives. I want to lend my voice to any who are involved in taking child predators out of circulation and providing proper care for those who have been violated.
Read more: wingsbts.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=stories&action=display&thread=249#ixzz2YJf7dmp6And.... no..... I don't want you to try to rewrite anyone's story for them. I prefer it to be in their own words, with their own thoughts and feelings about what happened to them. Some people need help with punctuation and spelling, and perhaps sentence structure, but their message in their own words is what is important. For now, all this hoopla is for nothing. None of the stories have been removed, and unless we can't locate the authors for permission to share their stories (and we currently have some of their permission to do so, but may contact them as a courtesy and update) the stories quite probably will stay as they are. However, as with any website content, changes may take place in the future as determined by the WINGS group.
|
|
|
Post by sacerdotal on Jul 6, 2013 20:20:48 GMT -5
I responded to your question: about whether an anti 2x2 letter would be included in letters we have posted and listed on WINGS. Your question had nothing to do with abuse. What the heck did you think that it was referring to then, Scott? So, just when I was going to let the issue drop, someone from Wings sends out a conflicting statement. Why the backtracking from what you originally wrote? Do you or do you not publish ALL ABUSE STORIES, even if they aren't NICE to the 2x2 fellowship? If not, which seems to be the case going forward, then I stand by what I wrote, if victims tell the truth about their experiences with the fellowship, and state opinions like "it is a cult" or other opinions, then they need NOT send their stories into Wings as Wings will not publish them. I get it. I understand it. I think that it is a foolish, cruel policy, but I get it. It is your site. Do with it what you want. But, I have every right to point out how cruel of a policy that it is to the victims. And I will.
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Jul 6, 2013 20:30:22 GMT -5
Scott wrote: Marie's story is one of those... I read Marie's letter, but I didnt see find her story - not all in one piece, that is...could you provide a link to it? Maybe its in the private board? I've encouraged her to write her story, and she's never mentioned that she already has written it, so I'm confused. I was referring to her letter. It is posted on the BTS board. wingsbts.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=lounge&action=display&thread=138
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Jul 6, 2013 20:40:15 GMT -5
As usual, more stuff made up out of thin air. Sac and a few others could keep half a dozen people busy just answering their speculations. Come to think of it, they are. The problem is that it takes much less time to make a sweeping statement than to refute it. Mr. Hat, you might want to brush up on your reading before choosing a horse to ride. Just sayin. You would do better sticking to specifics.
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Jul 6, 2013 20:46:30 GMT -5
I responded to your question: about whether an anti 2x2 letter would be included in letters we have posted and listed on WINGS. Your question had nothing to do with abuse. What the heck did you think that it was referring to then, Scott? So, just when I was going to let the issue drop, someone from Wings sends out a conflicting statement. Why the backtracking from what you originally wrote? Do you or do you not publish ALL ABUSE STORIES, even if they aren't NICE to the 2x2 fellowship? If not, which seems to be the case going forward, then I stand by what I wrote, if victims tell the truth about their experiences with the fellowship, and state opinions like "it is a cult" or other opinions, then they need NOT send their stories into Wings as Wings will not publish them. I get it. I understand it. I think that it is a foolish, cruel policy, but I get it. It is your site. Do with it what you want. But, I have every right to point out how cruel of a policy that it is to the victims. And I will. Is there actually any letter where you have a problem with WINGS handling?
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Jul 6, 2013 21:42:51 GMT -5
I responded to your question: about whether an anti 2x2 letter would be included in letters we have posted and listed on WINGS. Your question had nothing to do with abuse. What the heck did you think that it was referring to then, Scott? So, just when I was going to let the issue drop, someone from Wings sends out a conflicting statement. Why the backtracking from what you originally wrote? Do you or do you not publish ALL ABUSE STORIES, even if they aren't NICE to the 2x2 fellowship? If not, which seems to be the case going forward, then I stand by what I wrote, if victims tell the truth about their experiences with the fellowship, and state opinions like "it is a cult" or other opinions, then they need NOT send their stories into Wings as Wings will not publish them. I get it. I understand it. I think that it is a foolish, cruel policy, but I get it. It is your site. Do with it what you want. But, I have every right to point out how cruel of a policy that it is to the victims. And I will. No, we don't post all abuse stories. Not everyone wants their story posted. However, I think we have posted all the stories that were sent to us that were meant to be posted I have several 'stories' of abuse in emails I have received. Stories of abuse that have gotten workers charged and convicted, stories that have gotten workers removed from the work, stories of abuse that happened to people decades ago when they were children..... Most stories do not show the good side of the fellowship, and such stories rarely will. The point of those stories is that they focus on those responsible for what took place Usually perpetrator, the reaction of family, the reaction of the overseer/workers/friends notified and the result of all that. They are simply a chronological order of events, and don't include anything about the history of the church, the actions of workers in other areas in other decades, but simply focus on the 'who, what. when, where, how', and the outcome of it all. Incidentally, if you have read on the Survivor Stories page on WINGS, you will see that now there are excerpts from various stories we have posted which show the effect of abuse on victims. Every word of every survivor’s story is precious to them and reflects the complex circumstances of their abuse. The stories involve immediate and distant family, close friends, friends and workers in the fellowship and authorities. Many times some or all of those parties have failed in their duty to prevent abuse and to react properly to allegations of abuse. Although some of these stories occurred many years ago in circumstances that we might think no longer exist, they should be used as a warning to guard against any possibility of future CSA criminal activity.
Some stories canvas a spectrum of family disorder including emotional, physical, sexual and spiritual abuse. It is not possible or necessary to determine the root cause of such disorder; it is just necessary to work to support survivors and to prevent further abuse. This web site is focused purely on child sexual abuse but recognizes the importance of also dealing with all types of abuse.
Without intending to detract from the full stories that survivors have written, the following brief extracts from various survivor stories illustrate some of the life-long anguish and harm that is caused by child sexual abuse. The extracts are meant to alert every reader to the need to be alert, to believe victims and show empathy to them.
No one who has been sexually molested as a child will ever get well. They may get help but they won’t ever be completely healed. The things that you have done or do to get attention stay with you forever; memories of the people that you hurt stays with you forever. Your shame is always with you. You do things that you never would have done if the abuse never happened. It changes who you are. It confuses you and you do things without knowing why you do them or knowing what the damage could be to other people. Smells, thoughts, songs, even touch may trigger a bad memory and all at once consume you and leave you paralyzed both mentally and physically. Sometimes to the point where you can’t leave the house for days. I don’t care what anybody says—-a sexually abused child is never completely healed. The regrets almost consume me at times. There is always a part of you who hates who you are and wished you had lived differently. The guilt plagues you and you try to compensate for it by overdoing for others, just to make them like you. It’s so hard to trust anyone.
My whole life has been affected by what this Perpetrator did to me. I have absolutely nothing to gain by lying, and I risk much to lose by telling the truth.
I can honestly say that the abuse has affected me at all stages of my life. It is something that is always there and continually has an effect on the way I think about myself, my relationships to others, how I see myself as a parent, a person. The dynamics of this abuse are overwhelming. I wonder what my family – my relationships would have been like without its presence.
I’ve kept this a secret until the past year, but it has affected me negatively in many ways throughout my life.
I urge other parents to listen to their children and be aware that little children DO NOT make these allegations up!
my study of abuse issues has convinced me that sympathy is not enough – abuse victims need empathy to give them the strength to heal. Hopefully what I can say here will encourage more people to show the needed empathy for victims.
I didn’t know who to tell, and what to tell to whichever person I told. My instincts told me that the risks involved with telling someone were greater and less manageable than saying nothing and dealing with it myself, so that’s what I did.
I began to think it was my fault. I am still working on that issue in my counseling sessions.
I still feel some shame, I still have anger which I am working on through counseling, and at times I do get suicidal. So as I get free, I feel they have less control over me.
God was and is everything to me. By the time I was 10 years old I put words to what I had always felt – I wish I was never born. By the time I was 12 I knew I could do something about it. At that point I always had a plan and always had access to the plan. The only reason I never committed suicide is because I believed in God and God was the only reason to live. Even today there are times when I deal with these feelings, and still the only reason I live is God. My whole life was about surviving from one day to the next. And sometimes from one moment to the next. With rage running rampant and not knowing when it will be next – Always this state of fear – Always a state of torment.
Growing up never once did I feel loved. I learned to hate myself and feel I was the worst horrible person there was. I began to believe that no matter what I did or any friends I had that I would make the situation bad. I felt that this hate and badness was an intrinsic part of me. I hated myself for being a strong person – my child reasoning was that if I wasn’t strong that I wouldn’t have to deal with the horrible things that happened. I grew up feeling less than, inadequate, bad, hopeless. Always saying I am sorry to everyone for everything. Feeling that it is ALL my fault. I am to blame and I am responsible.
Once I started therapy nearly 15 years ago, my therapist asked if I wanted to report the abuse. I didn’t at that time because of how emotionally fragile I was and I could not face the abusers. It was a horrendous deal just to begin to talk about what really happened as a child in the setting of a therapist’s office – Let alone facing those who hurt me so terribly and being raised in absolute fear.
I still am in therapy and will be for a while yet. I wish it didn’t take so long – there have been twists and turns in my life some helpful to my healing and others not. I have come a long ways and I am not the person I was at the beginning – and yet I am not at the end of this journey. I know God will keep me through it and it is He who has brought the people in my life to help me when He has.
In common with most victims of sexual assault, I suffered feelings of guilt. A number of questions bothered me – for example: Why did I allow it to happen? Why did I not immediately tell my parents? It has only been in the past few years that I have realised that I was in no way to blame and I now feel absolutely free to talk about the abuse, without any shame or guilt.
I told her the whole story & they got help for me straight away with counseling. To Mom & Dad’s credit they never questioned my word…. the intuition of parents! They had seen changes in me in those three years & there were challenges with me that they couldn’t understand. I could not even begin to imagine how to explain to my parents at the age of 13 why I was lashing out at my family and so difficult to be around…
There is uniqueness to the violation of a child’s sexuality. There is a subtle difference in the way that violation changes a child that is like nothing else.
I had to express my thoughts to break these spiritual chains of bondage that has been affecting me over the past 25-30 years. I was hoping by just sharing this story it would help me heal and maybe someone else would step forward with their story as well? I feel a lot better since I shared this story with everyone.
[/i]
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Jul 6, 2013 21:58:51 GMT -5
I responded to your question: about whether an anti 2x2 letter would be included in letters we have posted and listed on WINGS. Your question had nothing to do with abuse. What the heck did you think that it was referring to then, Scott? So, just when I was going to let the issue drop, someone from Wings sends out a conflicting statement. Why the backtracking from what you originally wrote? Do you or do you not publish ALL ABUSE STORIES, even if they aren't NICE to the 2x2 fellowship? If not, which seems to be the case going forward, then I stand by what I wrote, if victims tell the truth about their experiences with the fellowship, and state opinions like "it is a cult" or other opinions, then they need NOT send their stories into Wings as Wings will not publish them. I get it. I understand it. I think that it is a foolish, cruel policy, but I get it. It is your site. Do with it what you want. But, I have every right to point out how cruel of a policy that it is to the victims. And I will. Nope. You never said anything about a letter/story of abuse. You stated 'an anti 2x2' letter. I responded to your question. It seems as if I am not specifically responding to specific questions then I end up having to continue to respond to the same question...... such as now...... Again, no, WINGS does NOT publish all abuse stories. See my above post.
|
|
|
Post by ts on Jul 6, 2013 22:25:57 GMT -5
The other 70% of her story deals directly with the abuse. I see no sense to censor the letter as it makes it appear that Wings is covering for the 2x2s, and I didn't think that was something that Wings was obligated to do. That's something I find sad about this story - it has a great deal to contribute to the cause of ridding the fellowship of CSA yet it descents into anti-2x2 propaganda which spoils it IMO. If you want to "harden up" friends and workers, take them to Brad's site or VOT or something. WINGS is not there to convince friends and workers that their church is an evil cult that they all should walk away from. "Propaganda" is a pretty hard word for an individual's personal story. You think of propaganda as an concerted effort by a group. The Workers are a group that work together. The victims are individuals who were hurt by the group. They are just telling their stories. Not heading up some "anti 2x2" campaign. If anyone is going to use propaganda, it is the Workers.
|
|
|
Post by emy on Jul 6, 2013 22:54:11 GMT -5
Sorry, I will write with a bigger font next time, sort of like someone shouting to a person that doesn't understand English, and hope that they will understand what is being said. Those that call me liars lose creditability with those that know me and understand that I would rather cut off a finger than knowingly or purposefully lie. I respect your right to censor the victim letters. By all means, go for it. And I don't really care if you respect my position that censoring the victim letters to cover for the fellowship is like you taking the knife that you censor with and cut them all over again. But, calling me a liar is not only out of bounds, it proves to me, as I tell my kids, that your pen has ran out of ink. Now, where did I do this so called prevaricating? IMO, this is not true. Does that make it a lie? No, you just can't be anti 2x2 to write in a story to Wings.Have you bothered to read all the stories that are linked on WINGS?
|
|
|
Post by sacerdotal on Jul 7, 2013 10:24:41 GMT -5
What the heck did you think that it was referring to then, Scott? So, just when I was going to let the issue drop, someone from Wings sends out a conflicting statement. Why the backtracking from what you originally wrote? Do you or do you not publish ALL ABUSE STORIES, even if they aren't NICE to the 2x2 fellowship? If not, which seems to be the case going forward, then I stand by what I wrote, if victims tell the truth about their experiences with the fellowship, and state opinions like "it is a cult" or other opinions, then they need NOT send their stories into Wings as Wings will not publish them. I get it. I understand it. I think that it is a foolish, cruel policy, but I get it. It is your site. Do with it what you want. But, I have every right to point out how cruel of a policy that it is to the victims. And I will. Is there actually any letter where you have a problem with WINGS handling? I don't. But Jesse Lackman has posted an example of one that he has a problem with, and Fixit has posted one that he has a problem with. And Cherie has posted a few that are missing. And Scott has made it plain that if the abuse letter is ALSO anti 2x2, it will not be posted.
|
|
|
Post by sacerdotal on Jul 7, 2013 10:25:41 GMT -5
Sorry, I will write with a bigger font next time, sort of like someone shouting to a person that doesn't understand English, and hope that they will understand what is being said. Those that call me liars lose creditability with those that know me and understand that I would rather cut off a finger than knowingly or purposefully lie. I respect your right to censor the victim letters. By all means, go for it. And I don't really care if you respect my position that censoring the victim letters to cover for the fellowship is like you taking the knife that you censor with and cut them all over again. But, calling me a liar is not only out of bounds, it proves to me, as I tell my kids, that your pen has ran out of ink. Now, where did I do this so called prevaricating? IMO, this is not true. Does that make it a lie? No, you just can't be anti 2x2 to write in a story to Wings.Have you bothered to read all the stories that are linked on WINGS? I am only going on what Scott and Fixit wrote. They are the experts. If they didn't mean what they wrote, then they need to be more clear.
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Jul 7, 2013 10:30:51 GMT -5
IMO, this is not true. Does that make it a lie? No, you just can't be anti 2x2 to write in a story to Wings.Have you bothered to read all the stories that are linked on WINGS? I am only going on what Scott and Fixit wrote. They are the experts. If they didn't mean what they wrote, then they need to be more clear. Perhaps you need to define what you would define as 'anti 2x2' in regard to a letter. Did you think that Bob's story (or at least the portion I copied here) is 'anti 2x2'?
|
|
|
Post by sacerdotal on Jul 7, 2013 10:41:35 GMT -5
They're all there? As I've pointed out earlier, I dont find: Fern Strouse's letter in the letters or stories Lisa's story isnt in BTS in the CSA Story board Marge Reynolds story isnt there Likely, these some of these omissions are just an oversight, or lack of time...and others are deliberate. Hi Cherie, is there another website to where these letters are posted?
|
|
|
Post by sacerdotal on Jul 7, 2013 10:52:39 GMT -5
I am only going on what Scott and Fixit wrote. They are the experts. If they didn't mean what they wrote, then they need to be more clear. Perhaps you need to define what you would define as 'anti 2x2' in regard to a letter. Did you think that Bob's story (or at least the portion I copied here) is 'anti 2x2'? FixIt has posted what he considered to be anti 2x2. I am not the ones defining the terms or the contents, that is you guys. Jesse Lackman also submitted linked to a letter that he considered to be anti 2x2. I personally think that if the friends and workers can't figure out that a person that has been traumatized by a worker or a system of cover up is probably not going to speak glowingly of the fellowship, then that just speaks more to the delusions of the fellowship. Fixit posted the following SNIPPET from a victim letter earlier- in another post where he/she posted it I noted that the part being posted was only 30% of the overall letter. 70% dealt directly with the abuse. But, here is the 30% that he/she felt disqualified the letter for being published: (note, the following 30% of the letter was after the victim had written that the worker would sneak into her room at night and fondle her. And over the course of the following months continue to sexually abuse her and sing the song "Maneater" to her. Do you think they would publish the following story on their website?
Do you think workers would encourage anyone to read the following story?
In the last few years I have researched this "religion/cult" on the Internet & there's some REALLY good information available. I STRONGLY ENCOURAGE ANYONE WHO IS CURRENTLY INVOLVED OR IS THINKING ABOUT GETTING INVOLVED TO REALLY CHECK IT OUT! Seriously, BUYER BEWARE!
This thing they call the "Truth" is not as it appears & there's a lot of information available that will give additional perspectives. God gave us a brain to question things with and a heart to have faith with. Use both!!!
Here's just a FEW of the websites that have provided some eye opening answers and how the religion really works. My story is just one of MANY but the fact of the matter is that there are many perspectives on this religion and many TRUTHS that you will never be told about while you're involved in it. I know after being indoctrinated by it for 17 years as a kid and being told this is the ONLY way to get to heaven, that this is a guilt driven church made up of mans rules. The "man" being William Irvine, who is documented in creating this religion. Per the documentation he started the religion in 1897 in Ireland. Check it out for yourself. I suggest researching it for unbiased answers as it's quite hard to get clear, straight forward, honest answers from someone submersed in the religion. That's speaking from experience!!!
www.veteransoftruth.com/ www.thelyingtruth.info/vot/home_splash.php caic.org.au/zcoonies.htm www.thelyingtruth.info/ www.tellingthetruth.info/home/
By the way, where in the bible does it say it's okay to go see a play but not go to a movie? Where does it say to watch movies, You Tube or TV shows on the Internet but don't have a TV? Just a few of their "hidden rules"! Why do the workers take money but not pay taxes? I know in my home we pay taxes on our income! Why is giving money to their church a hush-hush thing when it's a Biblical principal to tithe with a joyous heart??? Why does this church not believe in helping the needy and downtrodden? Why do they not teach about serving others less fortunate? Which is another biblical principal! When my cousin came home from open heart surgery and had to move his family where were the "friends" to help??? Isn't it what the bible to teaches to love and help each other? Why does this church teach that the only way to get to heaven is through this "religion" and that ALL other churches are "false religions"? Do you really thin k that God would create such a wonderful Universe & send everyone to hell that doesn't talk to a "worker"? Refer to the beginning of this email about the character and integrity of some of the workers and the leadership in the religion!! "They" refer to all other religions as "false religions" even if they ARE bible based Churches. They look down on religions that meet in buildings. Then why in the world is convention held in a building? What is the difference except that it's another one of their "unsaid and not to be challenged rules". Again, after being subjected to this religion for the entire time I lived in my parents home, this was & is the messages that were & are currently taught. Think about it!!!!!!
I must ask you who told me that the church was NOT founded by William Irvine, have YOU ever REALLY researched it yourself on the Internet where there is so much info readily available? (You know who you are!) Or have you just listened to what others in that religion told you & just followed blindly instead of finding out for yourself? Don't question the "workers" and loose position with them right? I thought it was about worshiping God, NOT the WORKERS as is done in that religion. What "they" say goes doesn't it?! No questions asked if you want to remain in their favor.
All this being said, don't take my word for it! Check it our for yourselves if you're brave enough too. I realize that for many of you this may be scary. What may be scarier is knowing that your daughters or sons maybe being molested right NOW by a "worker" in your home. Please parents above all else protect the innocence of your kids! You would not let any other stranger come into your home & sleep in the room next to your son or daughter would you?
We all make decisions. I encourage you to not make them on a guilt driven basis (which is what this religion encourages) but to look at the FACTS and perspectives of others who have gotten out of the forest so they can see the trees.
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Jul 7, 2013 10:56:11 GMT -5
They're all there? As I've pointed out earlier, I dont find: Fern Strouse's letter in the letters or stories Lisa's story isnt in BTS in the CSA Story board Marge Reynolds story isnt there Likely, these some of these omissions are just an oversight, or lack of time...and others are deliberate. Hi Cherie, is there another website to where these letters are posted? Yes, all except for Lisa's story are posted here: thelibertyconnection.info/I have a copy of Lisa's story, but do not have contact information to request permission to post it on the above website.
|
|
|
Post by sacerdotal on Jul 7, 2013 11:01:04 GMT -5
Hi Cherie, is there another website to where these letters are posted? Yes, all except for Lisa's story are posted here: thelibertyconnection.info/I have a copy of Lisa's story, but do not have contact information to request permission to post it on the above website. Had all of those stories once been on Wings?
|
|