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Post by What Hat on Jul 8, 2013 11:38:18 GMT -5
what wrote: My main role on WINGS is in the area of advocacy Could you explain what you mean by "the area of advocacy"? I'm interested in helping create awareness of the issue, and also, change within the f&w movement. That includes general knowledge of the problem, and implementation of the guidelines created by WINGS, but also other areas. I don't see myself helping victims, per se, for various reasons.
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Post by jondough on Jul 8, 2013 12:28:12 GMT -5
what wrote: My main role on WINGS is in the area of advocacy Could you explain what you mean by "the area of advocacy"? I'm interested in helping create awareness of the issue, and also, change within the f&w movement. That includes general knowledge of the problem, and implementation of the guidelines created by WINGS, but also other areas. I don't see myself helping victims, per se, for various reasons. This is a monumental task Mr. Hat. Not only that, but may become frustrating. What steps do you intend to take to create "awareness" which would be the first step in implementing change within the F&W fellowship?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 12:33:20 GMT -5
I'm interested in helping create awareness of the issue, and also, change within the f&w movement. That includes general knowledge of the problem, and implementation of the guidelines created by WINGS, but also other areas. I don't see myself helping victims, per se, for various reasons. This is a monumental task Mr. Hat. Not only that, but may become frustrating. What steps do you intend to take to create "awareness" which would be the first step in implementing change within the F&W fellowship? That is a monumental task. Just ask anyone whose tried to raise awareness of the fellowships real beginnings....raising awareness in this fellowship on any subject is not for the faint of heart.
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Post by What Hat on Jul 8, 2013 12:49:27 GMT -5
I'm interested in helping create awareness of the issue, and also, change within the f&w movement. That includes general knowledge of the problem, and implementation of the guidelines created by WINGS, but also other areas. I don't see myself helping victims, per se, for various reasons. This is a monumental task Mr. Hat. Not only that, but may become frustrating. What steps do you intend to take to create "awareness" which would be the first step in implementing change within the F&W fellowship? LOL. Did you see the word "helping"? I think it's a 10 to 20 year timetable. I have discussed the issue with those friends, mainly men, who I still see. I think it's going to stay at that level until I can determine how to get past a couple of points of resistance - like, we're not an organization so we don't need guidelines. But then I am working on something a bit more visible, which will be discussed with WINGS before I do anything so I'm not going to say too much. I think the WINGS web site is the key though.
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Post by What Hat on Jul 8, 2013 13:33:10 GMT -5
What Hat asked: It's mainly an issue as to whether the writer stays on topic or not. The more problematic texts have little or nothing to do with CSA. If the writer digresses into William Irvine, the Trinity and other things, what does that have to do with CSA.
As I wrote earlier on another thread: It has a lot to do with it. Learning about the short 2x2 history which leads to the realization that the F&W Fellowship is not God's ONLY true church has helped some victims find healing, as noted in some of the victims stories. The 2x2 history IS inextricably tied to the healing of those CSA victims who were B&R, which Jean was. Allow me to explain. Many victims were raised to believe they were part of God’s only true way on earth. Along comes a nice, friendly respected worker who befriends you, courts you, talks pretty to you--and then sexually abuses you. He further betrays you by letting you take unwarranted blame and suffer shame and sometimes punishment. He doesn’t apologize. You are left with the effects of CSA which permeates and utterly ruins your life. Your Abuser is an authority in God's only true church that is alleged to be “perfect,” and yet he has done this atrocity to you. Further some people recognize this child molester as a “Man of God,” and highly revere him. The “justice” of it all is mind boggling. It makes no sense. For you to get to heaven, you believe you MUST be in this way. That means you must submit to his authority and that of others like him. Authority figures you DO NOT & CANNOT TRUST. Its an endless cycle of despair and depression. You don’t want to go to hell. You cringe in fear at the thought; have nightmares about it. You are depressed—yet you cannot make yourself be a part of a church that allows and enables men like him to do this and to continue to do it to others. You live in agony that you will die at any moment and go to hell. A CSA victim believing the church is “God’s only way” has MAJOR COGNITIVE DISSONANCE! Due to this, you require medication and counseling just to function physically and go on living every day of your life. WHY? All because you believe the lie that that church is “God’s only true way.” You have no way to deal with your emotions toward this man. You hate him. You cannot begin to think of forgiving him. Yet workers and family tell you the Bible says that you MUST forgive him or you will go to hell. They also tell you that you must come back to the church you ran away from to get away from your abuser because it’s God's only true way. If/When the Victim discovers that the F&W church wasnt started with Jesus on the shores of Galilee, but rather was started by a man a little over 110 years ago—they usually realize that means it is not God’s only way on earth—Jesus is "the only way." They don’t have to be or stay inside that particular church to get to heaven. They realize they wont go to hell for refusing to be a part of a religious system that enabled men to abuse them, a system that cares more about the Abuser than the Victims. Learning the F&W church isn’t “God’s only way,” and finding out that the workers do not have a franchise on God lets the prisoner go free if s/he chooses. Now you finally have is peace in an area where there had been much pain, agony, guilt, etc. There is a gentle ebbing away of some of the cognitive dissonance…they no longer feel they have to be a part of something their Abuser is a part of, and they don’t have to submit to him and/or others like him to get to Heaven. For B&R adult victims of CSA—learning that the workers’ church is not God’s only way (thru the history) can play a HUGE part in their healing and finding peace. This historical truth becomes a door that allows the CSA Victim to pass thru and escape their cognitive dissonance. They are no longer trapped. They can even worship in another church if they choose, once they realize God is not found only in this one particular church. Sure most victims may still have a long way to go to recover, if they ever do, but the trap has been sprung. History opens doors that were previously closed to them. IMO, that's why learning about the F&W history is important to some CSA victims...and some on here want to edit that part of the victim's experience out of their stories!!! Why? I suggest the reason could be so the abused person who read the CSA stories won't see leaving meetings as a viable option. What hat -- Neither I nor my wife are first hand survivors of CSA -- but we both work with the issue daily -- I am employed by Social services in a little city close to us --- My wife works for the justice department as a social worker in a locked institution for teenage girls (the vast majority are CSA victims in some way) . In all the information we get on the subject of helping victims one principle is basic. I am aware that there are certain differences in national approaches to the issue, but a basic principles in our country in CSA damage control, is the will and capacity to unconditionally listen to the the unabridged feelings and emotions of victims. This freedom of expression is basic respect for the problem -- and it is NOT unusual that feelings go off on different tangents. Although I doubt if American principles differ on this principle, it seems to me that Wings has expressed a purposefull disregard of this basic principle our country regards as paramount. Another principle regarded as basic is the need of building up basic trust and and confidence in the genuine will to support.. Disregard for this is also a major failing in my opinion. Asking victims to trust anonymous unidentifiable people just because they are capable of writing well sounding pages of writings is unrealistic. In folks that have experienced a betrayal of trust -- outward promises of good will are not all that significant I don't know the extent to which WINGS attempts to assist victims. Is it a counselling role, or just a facilitation role? Your advice seems to be pointed to a counselling/ healing effort and I don't know the extent to which that is WINGS mandate. I feel WINGS role is necessarily very limited in victim support, and you point out some of the obvious reasons as to why.
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Post by fixit on Jul 8, 2013 18:20:27 GMT -5
This is a monumental task Mr. Hat. Not only that, but may become frustrating. What steps do you intend to take to create "awareness" which would be the first step in implementing change within the F&W fellowship? LOL. Did you see the word "helping"? I think it's a 10 to 20 year timetable. I have discussed the issue with those friends, mainly men, who I still see. I think it's going to stay at that level until I can determine how to get past a couple of points of resistance - like, we're not an organization so we don't need guidelines. But then I am working on something a bit more visible, which will be discussed with WINGS before I do anything so I'm not going to say too much. I think the WINGS web site is the key though. I agree that the WINGS website is the key. It needs to convince friends and workers that CSA is a problem in the church that can be and must be fixed. The WINGS website should not try to convince anyone their church is an evil cult. There are other websites set up for that purpose.
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Post by fixit on Jul 8, 2013 18:25:57 GMT -5
I don't know the extent to which WINGS attempts to assist victims. Is it a counselling role, or just a facilitation role? Your advice seems to be pointed to a counselling/ healing effort and I don't know the extent to which that is WINGS mandate. I feel WINGS role is necessarily very limited in victim support, and you point out some of the obvious reasons as to why. Has WINGS ever claimed to fill a counselling role? I don't think so. Here's what the website says: Our objective is to provide information, support and guidance on every aspect of CSA and to support victims of CSA. Our ultimate hope is to encourage change within the fellowship in order to protect others from the devastation that occurs through CSA, especially when its impact is trivialized or ignored.wingsfortruth.info/about/
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Post by What Hat on Jul 8, 2013 18:56:21 GMT -5
I don't know the extent to which WINGS attempts to assist victims. Is it a counselling role, or just a facilitation role? Your advice seems to be pointed to a counselling/ healing effort and I don't know the extent to which that is WINGS mandate. I feel WINGS role is necessarily very limited in victim support, and you point out some of the obvious reasons as to why. Has WINGS ever claimed to fill a counselling role? I don't think so. Here's what the website says: Our objective is to provide information, support and guidance on every aspect of CSA and to support victims of CSA. Our ultimate hope is to encourage change within the fellowship in order to protect others from the devastation that occurs through CSA, especially when its impact is trivialized or ignored.wingsfortruth.info/about/It's a completely neutral question, and FYI, in discussion with board members I was told clearly that WINGS' role is only to provide information, and co-ordinate or facilitate support for victims. The support itself would come from community agencies, professional counsellors, legal counsel or law enforcement agencies as appropriate.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 23:49:27 GMT -5
Then as I understand it Wings is now a site claiming dedication to seriously deal with the problems of CSA -- but has chosen to ignore and reject the issue of victims , because of the uncomfortable aspects of their stories and feelings??
What hat --- is there a CSA issue, if you remove the interests of the victims?
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Post by fixit on Jul 9, 2013 2:11:59 GMT -5
Then as I understand it Wings is now a site claiming dedication to seriously deal with the problems of CSA -- but has chosen to ignore and reject the issue of victims , because of the uncomfortable aspects of their stories and feelings?? If that's a question, the answer is an emphatic "no". Who have you been discussing this with? Why don't you try reading the website? wingsfortruth.info/about/Our objective is to provide information, support and guidance on every aspect of CSA and to support victims of CSA. Our ultimate hope is to encourage change within the fellowship in order to protect others from the devastation that occurs through CSA, especially when its impact is trivialized or ignored.What is it about "support victims of CSA" that you don't understand?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2013 3:28:44 GMT -5
Then as I understand it Wings is now a site claiming dedication to seriously deal with the problems of CSA -- but has chosen to ignore and reject the issue of victims , because of the uncomfortable aspects of their stories and feelings?? If that's a question, the answer is an emphatic "no". Who have you been discussing this with? Why don't you try reading the website? wingsfortruth.info/about/Our objective is to provide information, support and guidance on every aspect of CSA and to support victims of CSA. Our ultimate hope is to encourage change within the fellowship in order to protect others from the devastation that occurs through CSA, especially when its impact is trivialized or ignored.What is it about "support victims of CSA" that you don't understand?[/b] There is much lack of understanding and misunderstanding yet. We are still in our infancy with much of this. Yes progress has been made, but still we are far short of the mark. Take yourself Fixit. I am only using you as an example, not in a personal way. I too can fit into this in many ways. You have been very defensive and posting remarks in which you clearly identify many exes as vehement anti-2x2's and using other perjorative language. More and more researchers are seeing a link between spiritual abuse and some cases of csa and other forms of abuse. Reading up on spiritual abuse, one soon learns that many of the symptoms, damage and reactions from spiritual abuse are actually very similar to those produced by csa. I reckon that "most" of those people whom you (and others) identify with being anti 2x2, bitter, truth haters, etc., are actually people who are suffering or recovering from spiritual abuse at the least and are venting their emotions. They are behaving in ways similar to those who have suffered from csa, physical abuse, etc. One counselor I read recently stated that in his opinion that every person who had suffered spiritual abuse needs counseling to recover fully from it and that full recovery with the right help can take up to five years. Without counseling, it can be a lifelong battle. First we need to acknowledge that spiritual abuse is/was endemic in the F&W's church. It was a very effective controlling tool. It had damaged very many people over the years. It has killed off the spiritual life of many children before they could develop such a life in adulthood. Now, if we appreciate the effects of spiritual abuse are often very similar to those produced by other forms of abuse, we must exercise caution. Do we treat those exes whom we perceive as being anti 2x2, bitter, lost out, truth haters, according to these perceptions, or do we sit down and think to ourselves; "A high percentage of these people are victims of spiritual abuse to some degree. They are victims in need of help and proper recovery. We must find out more about this and see if there is anything we can do to help. We had better stop blaming them or putting them down. After all, we now know that we should not do this with victims of csa. That is the wrong approach. We must be more understanding. We must recognise what has made them the way they are, not just look for convenient excuses to explain them away and satisfy ourselves with our own ignorance."From henceforth, any remark condemning any previous member of the sect expressing anti-2x2 sentiments, should be regarded as potentially aggravating their wounds from spiritual abuse. We have learned (hopefully) from CSA not to do this. This lesson must be carried over to those who may have suffered from other forms of abuse. Venting anger and frustration is a well recognised "necessary" reaction in the recovery process, according to some counselors. If we are indeed serious about making a difference with regards to CSA, then it must start on a broader platform by recognising all other forms of abuse, their causes and effects, etc.
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Post by fixit on Jul 9, 2013 3:41:38 GMT -5
I agree that spiritual abuse is a serious issue, but have any studies shown that CSA in church groups is more prevalent in non-church groups?
Would telling someone their church is a dangerous cult amount to spiritual abuse?
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Post by ts on Jul 9, 2013 3:44:44 GMT -5
I agree that spiritual abuse is a serious issue, but have any studies shown that CSA in church groups is more prevalent in non-church groups? Would telling someone their church is a dangerous cult amount to spiritual abuse? Not if the church were a dangerous cult.
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Post by holdmyhand on Jul 9, 2013 4:18:03 GMT -5
This is a monumental task Mr. Hat. Not only that, but may become frustrating. What steps do you intend to take to create "awareness" which would be the first step in implementing change within the F&W fellowship? LOL. Did you see the word "helping"? I think it's a 10 to 20 year timetable. I have discussed the issue with those friends, mainly men, who I still see. I think it's going to stay at that level until I can determine how to get past a couple of points of resistance - like, we're not an organization so we don't need guidelines. But then I am working on something a bit more visible, which will be discussed with WINGS before I do anything so I'm not going to say too much. I think the WINGS web site is the key though. This expectation that nothing is going to happen quickly, and we need to wait until the overseers die to get change concerns me, I have heard it mentioned locally and don't hear the up coming bosses having any intention of changing, I also feel the responsibility of creating a positive atmosphere should not be forced onto victims/survivors We need to acknowledge anti 2x2 comments don’t just come out of the blue, something caused them, they are a sign or symptom something is wrong, suppressing them isn’t the cure, we need to get to the root cause and make changes there, With that thought in mind it seems simple enough to create a more positive/less negative environment, bearing in mind a lot of the anti feeling is caused by leaderships failure to act properly. If the leadership doesn’t like the negative content of the CSA letters they should, take action, Immediately remove every known CSA offender still in the work, evaluate the letters with honesty and identify and correct any misunderstandings, apologize to all concerned, inform the friends what to look for and who to speak to in future (CSA guidelines), Have a group of elders in every area that people can go to if they are being stonewalled by workers, including all abuse issues not confined to CSA only As long as known offenders are allowed to continue protected in the work, they are making a mockery of their words and their calling. Some younger workers don’t agree with the way their overseers are handling things, they see the damage incurred in prolonging the process of cleaning up and setting in order, but they to sit back with the excuse "Eli was left in power until God raised up Samuel", now that was OLD TESTIMENT today it’s no longer all about one man being in charge, we are now in the NEW testament, so it’s time to apply new testament teachings such as Matt chapters 18 and 23 if only they were practiced fully, we wouldn’t need this thread. Please, please everyone but especially workers read the bible and pray for discernment. Correcting each other is the right thing to do Gal 2:11. We need you to demonstrate strong spiritual and moral understanding and leadership todayIt appears the workers biggest worry, is fear of losing control, but we are weary of the bullying and standover tactics, are no longer impressed with promises that are not kept, we see through the charade and are losing respect for the ministry, we (many workers included ) have been let down by the whole system, so please don’t tell us we shouldn’t have any negative thoughts toward it. Until CSA is properly dealt with, it will keep festering. Words need to be backed with action, covering up and insisting everyone shuts up, pretends everything is wonderful and looks the other way is pretty immature, To the ministry, I ask please take full responsibility for the mistakes and make positive changes now, then people that think logically will see any future anti 2x2 comments as nothing more than raking up old offences that really have been dealt with and belong in the past. Now I realise some will read this as bashing, its not intended, I mean it as a wake up, look at what is happening and try and see it from a victims perspective,
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Post by fixit on Jul 9, 2013 4:43:45 GMT -5
I appreciate your post HMH, but I'm not sure that you have the correct perception of WINGS.
Victim stories can't be expected to put the church in a good light.
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Post by holdmyhand on Jul 9, 2013 4:58:37 GMT -5
that's good FIXIT we agree
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Post by fixit on Jul 9, 2013 5:23:35 GMT -5
that's good FIXIT we agree I think we probably do agree. The confusion lies in the erroneous perception of some on TMB who think WINGS is trying to be pro-2x2. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact WINGS is neither pro-2x2 not anti-2x2. It can't afford to be anything but neutral to progress its objectives. Anyone who has actually read the WINGS site will realize there's much there that is an embarrassment to the church. The WINGS site in no way attempts to cover up the hard cold facts. Quite the opposite. CSA offenders thrive where there's ignorance and a lack of openness. The way to eradicate CSA is through education, openness and accountability.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2013 5:40:31 GMT -5
I agree that spiritual abuse is a serious issue, but have any studies shown that CSA in church groups is more prevalent in non-church groups? If spiritual abuse is a serious issue in the church it should be recognised as such and properly addressed. Likewise, with CSA. Comparative studies, though having some value, are largely a separate issue. Would telling someone their church is a dangerous cult amount to spiritual abuse? If the claim was properly explained, why would it be regarded as abusive? The reverse seems to be the case.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2013 5:43:12 GMT -5
I appreciate your post HMH, but I'm not sure that you have the correct perception of WINGS. Victim stories can't be expected to put the church in a good light. The only thing that will put the church in a good light is properly addressing the plight of the victims.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2013 5:45:34 GMT -5
that's good FIXIT we agree I think we probably do agree. The confusion lies in the erroneous perception of some on TMB who think WINGS is trying to be pro-2x2. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact WINGS is neither pro-2x2 not anti-2x2. It can't afford to be anything but neutral to progress its objectives. Anyone who has actually read the WINGS site will realize there's much there that is an embarrassment to the church. The WINGS site in no way attempts to cover up the hard cold facts. Quite the opposite. CSA offenders thrive where there's ignorance and a lack of openness. The way to eradicate CSA is through education, openness and accountability.
AND adopting reasonable, preventative measures.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2013 13:40:07 GMT -5
Then as I understand it Wings is now a site claiming dedication to seriously deal with the problems of CSA -- but has chosen to ignore and reject the issue of victims , because of the uncomfortable aspects of their stories and feelings?? If that's a question, the answer is an emphatic "no". Who have you been discussing this with? Why don't you try reading the website? wingsfortruth.info/about/Our objective is to provide information, support and guidance on every aspect of CSA and to support victims of CSA. Our ultimate hope is to encourage change within the fellowship in order to protect others from the devastation that occurs through CSA, especially when its impact is trivialized or ignored.What is it about "support victims of CSA" that you don't understand? Just wondering fixit if you are a Wings representative? or representative of the Wings perspective of CSA. Is it this that you answer a responding 'No' to. Then as I understand it Wings is now a site claiming dedication to seriously deal with the problems of CSA -- but has chosen to ignore and reject the issue of victims , because of the uncomfortable aspects of their stories and feelings?? [/quote] By reading the info on the site I get the feeling that Wings claims dedication to seriously dealing with the problems of CSA within the 2x2 context -- Regarding victims, I think this thread and a few other threads have clarified that Wings has chosen to remove all victims stories from the Wings domain to proboards, because of the 2x2 feeling they were excessively negative to 2x2ism and that 2x2 representatives have complained. And then amongst the available stories of victims feelings, some were censored completely because of 'unsuitable 2x2 sentiment. In justifying these decisions, it was explained that supporting victims was outside the basic interest of Wings, and that this was a field they didn't feel was their responsibility. (This was in response to the thought that a basic principle in dealing with CSA victims was be a to allow them to express their feelings unabridged regardless the anger and frustration them may feel -- this freedom to express eventual anger and frustration is an important professionally accepted ingredient in the healing process) Fixit what are you saying no to???
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Post by fixit on Jul 9, 2013 13:51:52 GMT -5
Fixit what are you saying no to??? This is what I am saying "no" to: Wings......has chosen to ignore and reject the issue of victims , because of the uncomfortable aspects of their stories and feelings??You've come to a rather foolish conclusion Edgar. Where did you get that from?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2013 14:12:13 GMT -5
Fixit this is what I have based this on!! I don't know the extent to which WINGS attempts to assist victims. Is it a counselling role, or just a facilitation role? Your advice seems to be pointed to a counselling/ healing effort and I don't know the extent to which that is WINGS mandate. I feel WINGS role is necessarily very limited in victim support, and you point out some of the obvious reasons as to why.
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Post by What Hat on Jul 9, 2013 15:01:28 GMT -5
Fixit this is what I have based this on!! I don't know the extent to which WINGS attempts to assist victims. Is it a counselling role, or just a facilitation role? Your advice seems to be pointed to a counselling/ healing effort and I don't know the extent to which that is WINGS mandate. I feel WINGS role is necessarily very limited in victim support, and you point out some of the obvious reasons as to why. And given your penchant for running off in several directions at once, what did you take "limited" to mean? Hint: the answer is in the preceding sentence.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2013 15:27:11 GMT -5
Fixit this is what I have based this on!! And given your penchant for running off in several directions at once, what did you take "limited" to mean? Hint: the answer is in the preceding sentence. What hat -- I took 'limited' to mean as you wrote "very limited" -- And I had no reason to doubt the correctness of this, because of the explanation of Wings reasoning behind the critisizm of victims stories -- in the downplaying of the integrity of writers -- and in the fact that Wings had openly chosen to take action on this unsuitablity of victims stories, because of the 2x2 critisism of these stories being placed on Wings domain. I will restate my feelings that the continued expressions of disregard for, and the discredit shown in the open questioning of the integrity of victims feelings on the CSA that they have experienced --- makes the claim of serious interest in the issues of CSA within 2x2ism a complete farse. --- breaking the most basic principles in dealing with the concern. By removing the validity of the victims from the Wings CSA equation, basic credibility in it being a problem at all effectively vanishes.
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Post by sacerdotal on Jul 9, 2013 16:03:14 GMT -5
And given your penchant for running off in several directions at once, what did you take "limited" to mean? Hint: the answer is in the preceding sentence. What hat -- I took 'limited' to mean as you wrote "very limited" -- And I had no reason to doubt the correctness of this, because of the explanation of Wings reasoning behind the critisizm of victims stories -- in the downplaying of the integrity of writers -- and in the fact that Wings had openly chosen to take action on this unsuitablity of victims stories, because of the 2x2 critisism of these stories being placed on Wings domain. I will restate my feelings that the continued expressions of disregard for, and the discredit shown in the open questioning of the integrity of victims feelings on the CSA that they have experienced --- makes the claim of serious interest in the issues of CSA within 2x2ism a complete farse. --- breaking the most basic principles in dealing with the concern. By removing the validity of the victims from the Wings CSA equation, basic credibility in it being a problem at all effectively vanishes. Right. Wings does not needs to be in the business of judging the motives of victims. I'll say it again- if the victims want to throw rocks at the 2x2 house, then let them throw rocks. Watch both clips back to back to see what I mean. I don't think that it is fair to characterize harsh criticism of the 2x2s in a victim's letter as "advocacy". I think advocacy is what Wings is doing by becoming a judge of what is proper or allowable for a victim to say. It is condescending, really.
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Post by fixit on Jul 9, 2013 16:26:47 GMT -5
What hat -- I took 'limited' to mean as you wrote "very limited" -- And I had no reason to doubt the correctness of this, because of the explanation of Wings reasoning behind the critisizm of victims stories -- in the downplaying of the integrity of writers -- and in the fact that Wings had openly chosen to take action on this unsuitablity of victims stories, because of the 2x2 critisism of these stories being placed on Wings domain. I will restate my feelings that the continued expressions of disregard for, and the discredit shown in the open questioning of the integrity of victims feelings on the CSA that they have experienced --- makes the claim of serious interest in the issues of CSA within 2x2ism a complete farse. --- breaking the most basic principles in dealing with the concern. By removing the validity of the victims from the Wings CSA equation, basic credibility in it being a problem at all effectively vanishes. Right. Wings does not needs to be in the business of judging the motives of victims. I'll say it again- if the victims want to throw rocks at the 2x2 house, then let them throw rocks. Watch both clips back to back to see what I mean. I don't think that it is fair to characterize harsh criticism of the 2x2s in a victim's letter as "advocacy". I think advocacy is what Wings is doing by becoming a judge of what is proper and not for a victim to say. It is condescending, really. Yes, let them throw rocks. But its more appropriate to throw rocks within the TLC site where throwing rocks is expected, than to throw rocks on an advocacy site where they will potentially damage more survivors and damage the educational and abuse-prevention functions of WINGS. I defend the right of professing victims to come to a website focused on CSA, without being confronted by rocks hurled at their church and belief system. The church is to be blamed for failing to deal appropriately with CSA, but the church is not the cause of CSA. To suggest the church is the cause is to let the abusers off the hook. Here's a question for you Sac: Who is to blame for CSA - the church or the perpetrator?
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Post by quizzer on Jul 9, 2013 17:26:58 GMT -5
Right. Wings does not needs to be in the business of judging the motives of victims. I'll say it again- if the victims want to throw rocks at the 2x2 house, then let them throw rocks. Watch both clips back to back to see what I mean. I don't think that it is fair to characterize harsh criticism of the 2x2s in a victim's letter as "advocacy". I think advocacy is what Wings is doing by becoming a judge of what is proper and not for a victim to say. It is condescending, really. Yes, let them throw rocks. But its more appropriate to throw rocks within the TLC site where throwing rocks is expected, than to throw rocks on an advocacy site where they will potentially damage more survivors and damage the educational and abuse-prevention functions of WINGS. I defend the right of professing victims to come to a website focused on CSA, without being confronted by rocks hurled at their church and belief system. The church is to be blamed for failing to deal appropriately with CSA, but the church is not the cause of CSA. To suggest the church is the cause is to let the abusers off the hook. Here's a question for you Sac: Who is to blame for CSA - the church or the perpetrator?The answer could be both the church and the perpetrator could be to blame. The perpetrator is definitely to blame because the perpetrator caused the abuse. How the church handles this offense and the perpetrator determines whether the church is to blame. If the church supports the victims, turns the perpetrator over to the authorities, and spends time and discussion in determining if such future events can be prevented, then I'd say the church is doing its best. Churches can't be expected to be perfect, but Christian churches usually want to protect the weak and vulnerable in society and in their church body. On the other hand, if the church stifles the victims, knowingly places predators among children, and pretends that they're above caring for the victims, then...yeah, the church is to blame. You see this differently?
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