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Post by fixit on Jan 13, 2013 23:18:02 GMT -5
A worker in South Australia was recently fired from the work for reporting child sexual abuse to an overseer.
How should we as believers follow Paul's advise regarding sexually immoral brethren?
1 Corinthians 59 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—
10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.
11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2013 23:57:47 GMT -5
Not sure if I believe you, Mr. Fixit. Folk on the TTT and TMB don't worry too much about what Paul wrote, believe or how he lived. So don't quote him.  ps what's on tele' tonight? Desperate Housewives? Sex in the City? Gossip Girl? Work Out? Melrose Place? Tudors? Northern Exposure? The L-Word? Moonlighting? This stuff would have been banned 30 years ago. But wouldn't it be more titillating for you? |
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Post by Grant on Jan 14, 2013 1:25:56 GMT -5
You might not believe much of what is written in the Bible Bert, omitting parts that do not suit you, but there are many on here who do, unlike you and the workers who only take a few verses out of context to back up their theory and their own idea of what they feel Jesus ministry was like.
You have been watching too much TV, Bert. I have never heard of most of those programmes you mentioned. TV was banned by the workers when I went. My,.....,,,,, God's unchanging way is certainly changing.
Seems as if fixit and a few others know more of what is happening amongst the workers than you do, Bert. Seems as if you are on the outside - a fringe saint.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2013 1:29:39 GMT -5
I'm less concerned that Bert doesn't know what is going on in his local church than the fact that he makes TV watching into something worse than a worker getting fired for reporting CSA of a fellow worker. I presume it is a survival mechanism.
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Post by Grant on Jan 14, 2013 1:31:50 GMT -5
A survival mechanism or denial mechanism. Likely both survival and denial.
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Post by Greg on Jan 14, 2013 3:03:36 GMT -5
Not to make light of the topic, but I wonder about the current use of "ps" by bert after years of "nb".
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Post by fixit on Jan 14, 2013 5:19:38 GMT -5
Not sure if I believe you, Mr. Fixit. Folk on the TTT and TMB don't worry too much about what Paul wrote, believe or how he lived. So don't quote him. ps what's on tele' tonight? Desperate Housewives? Sex in the City? Gossip Girl? Work Out? Melrose Place? Tudors? Northern Exposure? The L-Word? Moonlighting? This stuff would have been banned 30 years ago. But wouldn't it be more titillating for you? Bert, can you help me understand why workers: 1. Speak against TV 2. Insist on modest apparel 3. Attend lots of meetings .....yet have a lower moral standard than the average "worldly" citizen of Australia? |
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Post by kencoolidge on Jan 14, 2013 6:35:44 GMT -5
Not sure if I believe you, Mr. Fixit. Folk on the TTT and TMB don't worry too much about what Paul wrote, believe or how he lived. So don't quote him. ps what's on tele' tonight? Desperate Housewives? Sex in the City? Gossip Girl? Work Out? Melrose Place? Tudors? Northern Exposure? The L-Word? Moonlighting? This stuff would have been banned 30 years ago. But wouldn't it be more titillating for you? Bert, can you help me understand why workers: 1. Speak against TV 2. Insist on modest apparel 3. Attend lots of meetings .....yet have a lower moral standard than the average "worldly" citizen of Australia? Examining scripture you don't have to go far to find appropriate applicable verses. These are hard words for those in power to follow especially when at odds with what they themselves do. Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. ken |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2013 7:15:43 GMT -5
A worker in South Australia was recently fired from the work for reporting child sexual abuse to an overseer.
This whole thread depends on the authenticity of this statement. Is the statement correct or is it a distortion or a fabrication of what really happened?
Something about it does not come across as the full story.That overseer would have to be a very unreasonable and unfair person, IMO.
One should not just grab it and run with it, without knowing the full story. I think that there is more in the mortar than the pestle.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2013 7:40:23 GMT -5
Not to make light of the topic, but I wonder about the current use of "ps" by bert after years of "nb". AH!! I was puzzled for a moment. P.S.- "post script', and N.B. - "note well."  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2013 9:15:00 GMT -5
A worker in South Australia was recently fired from the work for reporting child sexual abuse to an overseer.This whole thread depends on the authenticity of this statement. Is the statement correct or is it a distortion or a fabrication of what really happened? Something about it does not come across as the full story.That overseer would have to be a very unreasonable and unfair person, IMO. One should not just grab it and run with it, without knowing the full story. I think that there is more in the mortar than the pestle. I'm not sure how much more you need to feel authenticated. Do you mean you want names and dates, more detail....or....? Last week a brother worker originally from Victoria Aust. preaching in SA was advancing a complaint in SA against a fellow worker in Victoria of CSA of victims close to him. The SA overseer had him driven to the overseer of Victoria who met with him and promptly dismissed him from the work on the basis it was a false allegation, having allegedly investigated it and found it false. Does that sound more authentic? I think a lot of the F&Ws, particularly elders, in these states will know a bit about this and all should agree with the statement of facts above, whether they agree with the outcome or not. Confirmation should be pretty easy if you know people there. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2013 10:58:50 GMT -5
A worker in South Australia was recently fired from the work for reporting child sexual abuse to an overseer.This whole thread depends on the authenticity of this statement. Is the statement correct or is it a distortion or a fabrication of what really happened? Something about it does not come across as the full story.That overseer would have to be a very unreasonable and unfair person, IMO. One should not just grab it and run with it, without knowing the full story. I think that there is more in the mortar than the pestle. I'm not sure how much more you need to feel authenticated. Do you mean you want names and dates, more detail....or....? Last week a brother worker originally from Victoria Aust. preaching in SA was advancing a complaint in SA against a fellow worker in Victoria of CSA of victims close to him. The SA overseer had him driven to the overseer of Victoria who met with him and promptly dismissed him from the work on the basis it was a false allegation, having allegedly investigated it and found it false. Does that sound more authentic? I think a lot of the Confirmation should be pretty easy if you know people there. Yes CD, your example has a bit more body to it and would sound more plausible and acceptable to me. The original statement is more suitable as a headline that needed an expanded explanation or background. You must appreciate that I, and many others on here, are not F&Ws, particularly elders, in these states who would know a bit about this and we all should agree with the statement of facts above, whether we agree with the outcome or not. Some of us are hearing about it (this case) for the first time. Perhaps the original posting was meant for folks in that area who were already "in the know." |
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Post by jondough on Jan 14, 2013 11:03:26 GMT -5
None of us still can judge this case knowing only the above information.
As I have stated before, I have been witness to a witch-hunt. You can imagine how the victim's life, and his wife's life was turned upside down. He could have, however, prevented this from happening had he heeded warnings.
I would never allow myself to be put in a position to be accused of such an atrocious thing, but I can tell you, if I ever was. The first thing I would do is pay for my own polygraph test, and IMMEDIATELY take one. This would at least prove to others that you have nothing to hide, and you want the truth to be shown. I know these test are not 100 percent, and people can beat them. I also know that they are invalid in court.
Why do not people use this avenue more, just as a way to clear their own name? - Of course, that is assuming they are not guilty..
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Post by quizzer on Jan 14, 2013 11:17:50 GMT -5
A worker in South Australia was recently fired from the work for reporting child sexual abuse to an overseer.This whole thread depends on the authenticity of this statement. Is the statement correct or is it a distortion or a fabrication of what really happened? Something about it does not come across as the full story.That overseer would have to be a very unreasonable and unfair person, IMO. One should not just grab it and run with it, without knowing the full story. I think that there is more in the mortar than the pestle. I'm not sure how much more you need to feel authenticated. Do you mean you want names and dates, more detail....or....? Last week a brother worker originally from Victoria Aust. preaching in SA was advancing a complaint in SA against a fellow worker in Victoria of CSA of victims close to him. The SA overseer had him driven to the overseer of Victoria who met with him and promptly dismissed him from the work on the basis it was a false allegation, having allegedly investigated it and found it false. Does that sound more authentic? I think a lot of the F&Ws, particularly elders, in these states will know a bit about this and all should agree with the statement of facts above, whether they agree with the outcome or not. Confirmation should be pretty easy if you know people there. Where are the CSA laws in SA? This is usually the place to begin with a CSA case. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2013 11:52:12 GMT -5
None of us still can judge this case knowing only the above information. While no one can judge the guilt of the accused on the basis of that information, valid comments could be made on how it was handled. Anyone who knows a bit about how CSA should be handled in any institution will have some strong comments on this. What is the difference between a witch-hunt and an investigation? I note you have used the term witch-hunt before and I am curious as to what you see as the difference. Absolutely. You are vulnerable to a false accusation, everyone is no matter how careful you are, that's part of life especially if you tick off someone. You are right, an innocent person should respond strongly to a false accusation and demand that the authorities come in to investigate it. Polygraph isn't perfect so an innocent person is at risk of a false reading, especially if they are a nervous sort of person. It could be part of a professional investigation though. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2013 11:55:08 GMT -5
I'm not sure how much more you need to feel authenticated. Do you mean you want names and dates, more detail....or....? Last week a brother worker originally from Victoria Aust. preaching in SA was advancing a complaint in SA against a fellow worker in Victoria of CSA of victims close to him. The SA overseer had him driven to the overseer of Victoria who met with him and promptly dismissed him from the work on the basis it was a false allegation, having allegedly investigated it and found it false. Does that sound more authentic? I think a lot of the F&Ws, particularly elders, in these states will know a bit about this and all should agree with the statement of facts above, whether they agree with the outcome or not. Confirmation should be pretty easy if you know people there. Where are the CSA laws in SA? This is usually the place to begin with a CSA case. That is the ONLY place to begin with a serious allegation of a CSA case. These are horrific crimes, not just a case of someone not being polite, which is level of offense that the workers should be dealing with, not crimes. |
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Post by Greg on Jan 14, 2013 12:04:18 GMT -5
Where are the CSA laws in SA? This is usually the place to begin with a CSA case. That is the ONLY place to begin with a serious allegation of a CSA case. These are horrific crimes, not just a case of someone not being polite, which is level of offense that the workers should be dealing with, not crimes. Now that he is fired, will he go to the authorities as he probably should have immediately? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2013 12:12:33 GMT -5
That is the ONLY place to begin with a serious allegation of a CSA case. These are horrific crimes, not just a case of someone not being polite, which is level of offense that the workers should be dealing with, not crimes. Now that he is fired, will he go to the authorities as he probably should have immediately? Good question. There is a huge desire to protect the reputation of the ministry, which is why they do their own criminal investigations in secret, then cover it all up. That is changing in some parts of the world, but remains the standard protocol in Victoria. Whether this worker stays of the same mind as the others about protecting the One True Ministry remains to be seen. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2013 12:13:56 GMT -5
Please tell us how a worker can be fired? They collect no wages. Kicked out of the work, meeting, left on the side of the road?  |
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Post by Greg on Jan 14, 2013 12:20:59 GMT -5
Please tell us how a worker can be fired? They collect no wages. Kicked out of the work, meeting, left on the side of the road? A fired worker is simply removed from the work. I suppose the first thing they need to do is call someone for a lift and/or a place to stay. |
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Post by jondough on Jan 14, 2013 12:27:37 GMT -5
CD
While no one can judge the guilt of the accused on the basis of that information, valid comments could be made on how it was handled. Anyone who knows a bit about how CSA should be handled in any institution will have some strong comments on this.
My point was, most of us only know what was posted here (above). By this information we know almost nothing except that there was an accusation, an alleged investigation, and a firing. There is certainly much more to this, that probably most that are involved with the case have knowledge of. How the alleged investigation was handled, who was interviewed, why the worker was accused, what exactly he was accused of, why he was accused of it, who the original accuser was, etc....So my point is, without even knowing this information, we shouldn't even begin to jump to any conclusions.
What is the difference between a witch-hunt and an investigation? I note you have used the term witch-hunt before and I am curious as to what you see as the difference.
The difference is there were no children accusing this man of anything. There were a couple of adults that didn't like the way this man played with children (in front of adults). Nothing was ever done in private. They warned him to keep his distance. When he didn't, they x-ed him. They even were able to coerce one of the girls to falsely agree to something she later withdrew. That is much different than an accusation from someone, then investigating the accusation.
Absolutely. You are vulnerable to a false accusation, everyone is no matter how careful you are, that's part of life especially if you tick off someone. You are right, an innocent person should respond strongly to a false accusation and demand that the authorities come in to investigate it.
This is so true. How a person responds to an accusation tells a lot. If someone falsely accused me, I would be all over it. I would immediately get everyone and anyone involved with it together, push forward with the investigation, do it in the open, and want to come to a conclusion immediately. Anyone innocent would want the same.
Polygraph isn't perfect so an innocent person is at risk of a false reading, especially if they are a nervous sort of person. It could be part of a professional investigation though.
I could be wrong, I'm sure there are others on the board that know more about this than I do (which isn't much), but normally the failure rate (about 15%) is due to those that re guilty being found innocent, not vice-versa. A nervous person will have the needle bouncing all over the place, so when the questions are asked, that may be a lie, it just continues to bounce in the same way, and the lie is not identified. A person like LW likely believes his own lies and therefore would pass the test even though they may be guilty.
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Post by Greg on Jan 14, 2013 12:31:30 GMT -5
The one "if" allowable, I think is, "if this be true, the parents should go to the authorities."
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Post by sacerdotal on Jan 14, 2013 12:38:25 GMT -5
Please tell us how a worker can be fired? They collect no wages. Kicked out of the work, meeting, left on the side of the road? I recall a saying that some workers would use from time to time, "the friends didn't hire me, so they can't fire me." I have wondered why it is that the workers' say that the Lord called them into the ministry but overlook the fact that workers' have been sent home over the years mostly via overseer insecurity to their "authority" being questioned. If the Lord does call the workers to be His servants, then how dare a mere man overrule the Lord's calling? Where is the faith? This seems to have been a simple "power play", no different than any other worldly institution. So much for being as little children and the least. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2013 12:50:26 GMT -5
Please tell us how a worker can be fired? They collect no wages. Kicked out of the work, meeting, left on the side of the road? In order to understand the firing process, you have to understand the hiring process. Basically, no worker becomes a worker without their application and acceptance by an overseer. That overseer decides to hire them (without a regular guaranteed wage), assigns them a companion and a field in which the friends provide their wage in the form of home hospitality, a means of transportation and cash donations as they see fit. In the firing process, the worker has his companion and field removed from him, and therefore his means to continue his worker career. If workers actually went out on "faith lines", none of the above would be relevant. They would continue to preach the gospel on faith. Very few do, although there are examples such as Eddie Cooney. |
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Post by sacerdotal on Jan 14, 2013 12:54:45 GMT -5
Please tell us how a worker can be fired? They collect no wages. Kicked out of the work, meeting, left on the side of the road? In order to understand the firing process, you have to understand the hiring process. Basically, no worker becomes a worker without their application and acceptance by an overseer. That overseer decides to hire them (without a regular guaranteed wage), assigns them a companion and a field in which the friends provide their wage in the form of home hospitality, a means of transportation and cash donations as they see fit. In the firing process, the worker has his companion and field removed from him, and therefore his means to continue his worker career. If workers actually went out on "faith lines", none of the above would be relevant. They would continue to preach the gospel on faith. Very few do, although there are examples such as Eddie Cooney. What would happen if the worker did continue as the Lord called him, do you think that any friends that would continue to support him would be excommunicated as has happened on multiple occasions in the past? Are the friends allowed, through faith and love, to continue supporting the worker? Nope- this would be an affront to the overseer's "authority" and would not be tolerated. God doesn't enter into these decisions. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2013 13:05:24 GMT -5
CD While no one can judge the guilt of the accused on the basis of that information, valid comments could be made on how it was handled. Anyone who knows a bit about how CSA should be handled in any institution will have some strong comments on this.My point was, most of us only know what was posted here (above). By this information we know almost nothing except that there was an accusation, an alleged investigation, and a firing. There is certainly much more to this, that probably most that are involved with the case have knowledge of. How the alleged investigation was handled, who was interviewed, why the worker was accused, what exactly he was accused of, why he was accused of it, who was the original accuser, etc....So my point is, without even knowing this information, we shouldn't even begin to jump to any conclusions. Surprisingly, I don't think there is a whole lot more to this. Even if you had the full story from each side of the story, you will still be unable to determine the guilt or innocence of the accused. That's why this is always required to be put forward to professional investigators. That is the main comment we can make about this based on the summary of facts. This is a matter for the authorities. No worker should be involved in a criminal investigation whatsoever. The worker and the overseer should have registered their information with the authorities and let them decide on how to proceed from there. More can be done from a church standpoint, it would depend on what and how many complaints were known and the risks associated with the case. I am still not quite clear on what the difference is between a witch-hunt and an investigation. It sounds like some sort of investigation was performed in the above, and a judgment made. Based on your information, it is not necessarily a witch-hunt in the way I would think of one. My view of a witch-hunt is that there is a pretext involved behind a campaign or an investigation. That is, the person in your example is known not to be danger to kids but is not wanted for some other reason, but the danger to children is used as a pretext to get rid of him. 85% accuracy is not very high when you consider what is at stake. Personally, I wouldn't submit to one as the sole determinant for guilt or innocence, the risk of a false reading is far too high. However, it could be a good tool to use along with other evidence. |
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Post by fixit on Jan 14, 2013 13:57:53 GMT -5
Where are the CSA laws in SA? This is usually the place to begin with a CSA case. When witnesses are vilified and potential witnesses intimidated by the ministry, the CSA may never be brought to the attention of child protection authorities. |
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Post by fixit on Jan 14, 2013 14:00:58 GMT -5
The one "if" allowable, I think is, "if this be true, the parents should go to the authorities." If parents think the ministry holds their salvation in its hands they may be too terrified to go to the authorities. |
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