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Post by fixit on Jan 16, 2013 16:50:55 GMT -5
It takes a lot of courage for child sexual abuse victims to come forward, but that's essential for this evil to be purged from the church.
Those who resist the efforts of the folks who seek justice for victims are making it harder for them to come forward.
Many times in the Bible, Israel was reminded of the need to seek justice for the widows and fatherless.
Perhaps the equivalent in our church would be the sexually abused.
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Post by rational on Jan 16, 2013 16:52:55 GMT -5
What do you think of the following scripture Rational? Matt 20:24 A good example to support what you stated. On the other hand Jesus did raise his hand against those he believed were in error. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2013 16:54:39 GMT -5
There are far more effective ways of defending our children than by identifying all the possible perpetrators. Let's hear about your solutions Edgar. Details please. Nothing complicated!! The exact same things that are wise in every other social situation for your children. Be very careful who you give access to your children without your presence... and be very careful of the folks that you teach your children to regard as trust worthy. Likely the major problem with CSA in 2x2ism is not the workers themselves, it is the completely unreasonable trust that workers demand (and get) - and the unlimited unmonitored access that they are given to homes and families. Getting rid of all the folks in your community who may have ulterior motives is a completely hopeless and unreasonable task. You will NEVER be sure that all the bad workers are out of the work --- and you can NEVER be sure that any other environment is 100% free from risks either. Teaching your children how to live safely in a very imperfect and dangerous world is basic in every other social situation as well. This is a task that is not reserved to CSA!!! and not to 2x2ism either. It takes a lot of courage for child sexual abuse victims to come forward, but that's essential for this evil to be purged from the church. Don't hold your breath!!!! -- its not going to happen-- and our kids have to grow up anyways -- Waiting for the world to change (or even for 2x2ism to change) is not an option for most of us. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2013 19:38:39 GMT -5
Let's hear about your solutions Edgar. Details please. Nothing complicated!! The exact same things that are wise in every other social situation for your children. Be very careful who you give access to your children without your presence... and be very careful of the folks that you teach your children to regard as trust worthy. Likely the major problem with CSA in 2x2ism is not the workers themselves, it is the completely unreasonable trust that workers demand (and get) - and the unlimited unmonitored access that they are given to homes and families. Unguarded trust is certainly one element of the problem, but how do you propose that parents teach their child this when the parents themselves can't discern who to trust and give 100% trust to workers and certain family members? If the parents don't know, who is going to teach the parents? You suggested your solution was far easier than reporting criminals. I disagree with that. There is no way to train the parents for one thing. And for the other is that CSA offenders are almost always the least likely-seeming people to be sex criminals. Even the most discerning of people will get fooled. Kids need much more information. I haven't heard anyone propose "Getting rid of all the folks in your community who may have ulterior motives". That would be foolish and impossible to try. You are the first to suggest that to my knowledge. What is most commonly proposed is dealing with people who actually offend. That alone will spur parents to get educated on this. As long as you allow cover ups, parents remain naive, trusting, and very vulnerable. A lot of F&Ws think there are no offenders out there among them.....or don't want to think about it at all. Even though we can't get all offenders out of the work or other trusted places, when we do, there is one less risky offender out there. It's simple arithmetic: identify 50% of the offenders, reduce the crimes by 50%, more or less. Allowing offenders to float around unsuspecting parents and children is as despicable as the crime itself. Completely true. Now who is going to teach the teachers? That's the big problem here. [/quote] Waiting for the world to change should not be an option for anyone. Everyone should engage in important issues where they can be part of the change, and not wait for anything. |
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Post by kiwi on Jan 16, 2013 21:01:12 GMT -5
So Mr Fixit, you aren't into worker bashing, just protecting childrenNo one should be against worker bashing whenever they ignore very serious risks to the most vulnerable within the fellowship and where workers are involved or could be involved. No one who is a Christian will be into bashing anyone spiritually or physically. |
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Post by fixit on Jan 16, 2013 21:25:54 GMT -5
Everyone who is a Christian will defend and support the weak and vulnerable.
The Master himself did, and the abusers may have felt "bashed" as a result.
Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
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Post by nsis on Jan 16, 2013 23:03:53 GMT -5
As a professing person myself, I truly question the motive of those that would not want to rid our fellowship of evil. If it were within your home, would you react the same? Maybe you do this out of ignorance. For myself, I want it exposed and cleaned up, due to my love for the fellowship. I'm sorry folks, but it HAS to be brought to light, in order for it to be cleaned up and purged. It can be done no other way. I'll ask it another way. If your child was in a classroom of a teacher that was suspected on more than one occasion of sexual abuse of children. What would your reaction be? Would you again attack the accusers? Would you attack the ones that wanted it exposed, and purged out of your school? What if another teacher with less tenure brought it to the attention of the Principle, so the Principle fires the teacher that brought it to him. What would your reaction be? Please pull your head out of the sand. I do understand that the motives of some on this board is simply to bash our fellowship. That's their problem, not mine. Jesus said, " If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away." " if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away." You don't think this happens without some pain do you? If you think this kind of things do not happen within our fellowship, just check out the Wings website of those that HAVE been CONVICTED of CSA. One of the most atrocious ones was in our home while a couple of my children were just the age that this person loved. I know for sure that our child was never left alone with this man (FORTUNATELY!!!!). I can tell you for sure though that I wouldn't have even began to suspect this person would even think of the things he was convicted of (multiple convictions on multiple children). In fact, at the time, I wouldn't have hesitated for a second to leave my children alone this man. He was an elder worker. Super nice guy! Even to this day, I feel sorry for him. We completely trusted this man. I hardly believed it when I heard what he was accused of. Let me tell you...If what happened to multiple other children, had happened to my son by this man - and I found out that allegations had been brought to an overseer and he was still allowed in my home?!! Or even worse, that someone was kicked out of the work for trying to bring it to light....There would have been some serious consequences. So when there is an allegation (even one), it MUST be taken seriously. Those that bring it to light MUST not be punished! The first step in cleaning up any problem is admitting to the problem. The opposite of this is denial. I guess the collateral damage of cleaning and purging of this evil is that others might have to know about it. Maybe even some "fellowship bashers" might be able to use it for bashing our fellowship. So I ask you, Is this too high of a price to pay for this purging? Should everyone just remain quiet? Sorry, I have more love for my fellowship than to do this. THANK YOU to the People at Wings for love and caring enough about our fellowship, that you are unselfishly giving of your time to do what you can to help! And right there is a message that deserves repeating. Over and over and over. Until justice is obtained. Appreciate the above words. They are just, and right, and good. And very appropriate. |
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Post by kiwi on Jan 16, 2013 23:44:39 GMT -5
Everyone who is a Christian will defend and support the weak and vulnerable. The Master himself did, and the abusers may have felt "bashed" as a result. Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Did He give you permission to do the same? I know He gave permission for all to love their enemies. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2013 0:22:14 GMT -5
Everyone who is a Christian will defend and support the weak and vulnerable. The Master himself did, and the abusers may have felt "bashed" as a result. Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Did He give you permission to do the same? I know He gave permission for all to love their enemies. Can telling the truth ever be called bashing? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2013 1:28:07 GMT -5
Did He give you permission to do the same? I know He gave permission for all to love their enemies. Can telling the truth ever be called bashing? The story of the woman taken in adultery is good example of 'the truth' being used in a unsuitable way ... unsuitable 'bashing' according to Jesus. 2x2ism is the best example in the world of partial truth exploited for selfish motives. 2x2ism has refined the art of bashing to include everything in every other group in the world. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2013 3:54:02 GMT -5
So Mr Fixit, you aren't into worker bashing, just protecting childrenNo one should be against worker bashing whenever they ignore very serious risks to the most vulnerable within the fellowship and where workers are involved or could be involved. No one who is a Christian will be into bashing anyone spiritually or physically. This isn't about being a Christian. It is about knocking some common sense into some self serving individuals who purport to be the true servants of God but who blatantly refuse to do the right things to protect the most vulnerable members within their group and who will form their future support base. Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and render unto God that which is God's. If they won't do the right thing from a Christian standpoint then they need "bashing" to force them to do it from a worldly standpoint. Even Jesus has told them to do it from a worldly standpoint, if they don't believe it is of God! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2013 8:14:12 GMT -5
Have we got the right spiritually or morally to rebuke, condemn, censure, chastise anyone for engaging in something that we perceive to be wrong and unacceptable behavior? I think that we do, or at least we have the right to express our opinions in the matter. I have been looking at the two words chastening and chastisement and here is what I came up with: www.biblestudytools.com/encyclopedias/isbe/chastening-chastisement.htmlI have found this rather interesting and thought that I would post it here for anyone who is interested in these things. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2013 8:54:53 GMT -5
The example of Jesus is your example partaker. As long as we have the right motives and are willing for such chastisement ourselves.
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Post by jondough on Jan 17, 2013 9:14:53 GMT -5
Can telling the truth ever be called bashing? The story of the woman taken in adultery is good example of 'the truth' being used in a unsuitable way ... unsuitable 'bashing' according to Jesus. 2x2ism is the best example in the world of partial truth exploited for selfish motives. 2x2ism has refined the art of bashing to include everything in every other group in the world. Edgar, Read post 59 of CD's; Here it is so you dont haver to look it up; |
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Post by sharonw on Jan 17, 2013 9:54:36 GMT -5
The story of the woman taken in adultery is good example of 'the truth' being used in a unsuitable way ... unsuitable 'bashing' according to Jesus. 2x2ism is the best example in the world of partial truth exploited for selfish motives. 2x2ism has refined the art of bashing to include everything in every other group in the world. Edgar, Read post 59 of CD's; Here it is so you dont haver to look it up; I think in order to do away with those who are perpetually sinful even unto crimes, the whole fellowship which would be friends AND workers need to strive to restore moral standards within the walls and tenets of the 2x2 faith! This alone will bring to light the criminals who have been perpetually hidden by those in power....and it will also show just how willing those in power are to changing things themselves, instead of living in gross fear that the workership has to be defended even unto the last criminal living within the walls of that fellowship! Quit fighting to keep the reputation of the workers, but start fighting to restore(ir it ever was there) the equality of loving our neighbors as ourselves and more then that, loving our Lord our God with all our hearts, minds, spirits and strength. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2013 10:28:17 GMT -5
The example of Jesus is your example partaker. As long as we have the right motives and are willing for such chastisement ourselves. I agree, no argument on that one. |
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Post by fixit on Jan 17, 2013 13:52:06 GMT -5
Have we got the right spiritually or morally to rebuke, condemn, censure, chastise anyone for engaging in something that we perceive to be wrong and unacceptable behavior? I think that we do, or at least we have the right to express our opinions in the matter. Paul taught the Corinthian believers to judge those inside the church. 1 Corinthians 59 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—
10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.
11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2013 16:23:05 GMT -5
I suggest that anyone with the slightest hope of changing 2x2ism should save their breath to cool their porridge! The ONLY plan of safety is keep clear of the whole organization -- trying to put a new patch on this old and filty garment is nothing but a clear excersize in futility.
Countless folks far more capable than any of us here, have tried, and tried (and failed)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2013 16:32:21 GMT -5
I suggest that anyone with the slightest hope of changing 2x2ism should save their breath to cool their porridge! The ONLY plan of safety is keep clear of the whole organization -- trying to put a new patch on this old and filty garment is nothing but a clear excersize in futility. Countless folks far more capable than any of us here, have tried, and tried (and failed) Now this I agree with 100%. I learned the hard way. 1-2 years ago I was in contact with the Faith Mission, Police, Children's charities and church child protection organisations about dealing with csa in the 2x2 sect. Although most of these, but not all, had never heard of the group, they had experience with other like minded groups. The gist of their advice? "Don't get involved. You are wasting your time. They will only stress you out!" I looked at myself and yes the whole thing was indeed stressing me out. I backed away. Now I can have my porridge at the right temperature. |
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Post by fixit on Jan 17, 2013 18:43:41 GMT -5
I can understand where you're coming from RAM, leaving them to their folly is one option.
What about friends and family and the many good sincere people in the church?
Perhaps by remaining in our place we can help them in their relationship with God in spite of the error of the leadership?
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Post by kiwi on Jan 17, 2013 21:05:40 GMT -5
Did He give you permission to do the same? I know He gave permission for all to love their enemies. Can telling the truth ever be called bashing? Who knows truth? only God, that is why He has said that His thoughts are higher than ours. It is impossible for a human to know the absolute truth about others or the intents of their hearts, so calling it telling the truth is a bit of a stretch. So asking for bashing and calling it telling the truth is a bit happy. |
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Post by kiwi on Jan 17, 2013 21:08:48 GMT -5
No one who is a Christian will be into bashing anyone spiritually or physically. This isn't about being a Christian. It is about knocking some common sense into some self serving individuals who purport to be the true servants of God but who blatantly refuse to do the right things to protect the most vulnerable members within their group and who will form their future support base. Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and render unto God that which is God's. If they won't do the right thing from a Christian standpoint then they need "bashing" to force them to do it from a worldly standpoint. Even Jesus has told them to do it from a worldly standpoint, if they don't believe it is of God! And you of course know the absolute truth of those people you pro-port bashing of? Let me tell you that you have not got the brain power to act as a God. |
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Post by kiwi on Jan 17, 2013 21:10:22 GMT -5
Have we got the right spiritually or morally to rebuke, condemn, censure, chastise anyone for engaging in something that we perceive to be wrong and unacceptable behavior? I think that we do, or at least we have the right to express our opinions in the matter. I have been looking at the two words chastening and chastisement and here is what I came up with: www.biblestudytools.com/encyclopedias/isbe/chastening-chastisement.htmlI have found this rather interesting and thought that I would post it here for anyone who is interested in these things. One thinking they have is not good enough, what if what you think is wrong? |
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Post by fixit on Jan 17, 2013 21:23:42 GMT -5
Kiwi, I wonder if you'd recognize evil even if it was right in front of you.
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Post by kiwi on Jan 17, 2013 21:59:53 GMT -5
Kiwi, I wonder if you'd recognize evil even if it was right in front of you. Why would I need to recognize evil when all we need to see is Jesus and know the promise of being kept from evil? But then again you might feel that you have the power to know all men's hearts. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2013 22:02:05 GMT -5
Kiwi, I wonder if you'd recognize evil even if it was right in front of you. Why would I need to recognize evil when all we need to see is Jesus and know the promise of being kept from evil?  |
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Post by kiwi on Jan 17, 2013 22:03:02 GMT -5
Why would I need to recognize evil when all we need to see is Jesus and know the promise of being kept from evil? And so you stoop. |
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Post by rational on Jan 17, 2013 22:06:05 GMT -5
Nothing complicated!! The exact same things that are wise in every other social situation for your children. Be very careful who you give access to your children without your presence... and be very careful of the folks that you teach your children to regard as trust worthy. Likely the major problem with CSA in 2x2ism is not the workers themselves, it is the completely unreasonable trust that workers demand (and get) Getting rid of all the folks in your community who may have ulterior motives is a completely hopeless task. You will NEVER be sure that all the bad workers are out of the work --- and you can NEVER be sure that any other environment is 100% free from risks either. Teaching your children how to live safely in a very imperfect world is basic in every other danger situation as well. This is a task that is not reserved to CSA!!! This certainly sounds like a plan! I am also in favor of better education for both children and parents. |
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