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Post by fixit on Jan 17, 2013 22:12:54 GMT -5
I am also in favor of better education for both children and parents. The challenge is - how do you educate the friends? Workers are in a position to do it, but they lack the wisdom and courage to make it happen. Anyone have any suggestions for how to educate the friends on child sexual abuse? |
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Post by rational on Jan 17, 2013 22:27:09 GMT -5
I am also in favor of better education for both children and parents. The challenge is - how do you educate the friends? Workers are in a position to do it, but they lack the wisdom and courage to make it happen. Anyone have any suggestions for how to educate the friends on child sexual abuse? I don't see this as a F&W issue but as an issue for society at large. It is apparent that parents, for the most part, are unable/unwilling to provide the education regarding sexuality to their children. Perhaps it is time to leave the education to educators and keep the people opposing the teaching out of the way. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2013 22:31:43 GMT -5
I am also in favor of better education for both children and parents. The challenge is - how do you educate the friends? Workers are in a position to do it, but they lack the wisdom and courage to make it happen. Anyone have any suggestions for how to educate the friends on child sexual abuse? The solution comes from two directions: education and enforcement. For education, what is happening at best is that the children are educating the parents from what they learn at school. It shouldn't work that way. How to change that? It is nearly impossible in a closed system which has no process to change for the better. Why is there no process to change? It is believed that the way is already perfect and all needs are being met by meeting attendance. |
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Post by fixit on Jan 17, 2013 22:36:50 GMT -5
The challenge is - how do you educate the friends? Workers are in a position to do it, but they lack the wisdom and courage to make it happen. Anyone have any suggestions for how to educate the friends on child sexual abuse? I don't see this as a F&W issue but as an issue for society at large. It is apparent that parents, for the most part, are unable/unwilling to provide the education regarding sexuality to their children. Perhaps it is time to leave the education to educators and keep the people opposing the teaching out of the way. This board is for members and ex-members of one particular church. If you want to discuss child sexual abuse within society at large there are more appropriate forums. Those who care about the church and the people in it will want to get child sex offenders off the platform and out of children's homes. Saying that child sexual abuse within the church is no worse than outside of the church is a cop-out. Some of us want better than that for the church. |
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Post by rational on Jan 17, 2013 23:11:51 GMT -5
This board is for members and ex-members of one particular church. As an ex member I qualify. The F&W are indistinguishable from society at large. The problems and solutions for one and the same. Those who care about humans in general will want to protect the children from criminals. Methods that protect children in general will also protect children within the F&W. Call it what you wish but without any facts to show it is different does it matter? Child abuse is a problem that needs to be addressed. Some of us set our sights just a bit higher. |
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 17, 2013 23:17:16 GMT -5
This board is for members and ex-members of one particular church. As an ex member I qualify. The F&W are indistinguishable from society at large. The problems and solutions for one and the same. Those who care about humans in general will want to protect the children from criminals. Methods that protect children in general will also protect children within the F&W. Call it what you wish but without any facts to show it is different does it matter? Child abuse is a problem that needs to be addressed. Some of us set our sights just a bit higher. |
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Post by kiwi on Jan 18, 2013 0:52:33 GMT -5
I am also in favor of better education for both children and parents. The challenge is - how do you educate the friends? Workers are in a position to do it, but they lack the wisdom and courage to make it happen. Anyone have any suggestions for how to educate the friends on child sexual abuse? Ever heard of God? Could any on this earth teach as well as He? Seems to me by the answers in this thread that some only want to rely on man teaching them. |
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Post by kiwi on Jan 18, 2013 0:55:20 GMT -5
I don't see this as a F&W issue but as an issue for society at large. It is apparent that parents, for the most part, are unable/unwilling to provide the education regarding sexuality to their children. Perhaps it is time to leave the education to educators and keep the people opposing the teaching out of the way. This board is for members and ex-members of one particular church. If you want to discuss child sexual abuse within society at large there are more appropriate forums. Those who care about the church and the people in it will want to get child sex offenders off the platform and out of children's homes. Saying that child sexual abuse within the church is no worse than outside of the church is a cop-out. Some of us want better than that for the church. Just cause someone brings up something a little different than what you perceive should be discussed you dump on them, you slip is showing sweetie  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2013 1:25:53 GMT -5
I am also in favor of better education for both children and parents. The challenge is - how do you educate the friends? Workers are in a position to do it, but they lack the wisdom and courage to make it happen. Anyone have any suggestions for how to educate the friends on child sexual abuse? The educational aspect is simple -- Nothing complicated!! The exact same things that are wise in every other social situation for your children. Be very careful who you give access to your children without your presence... and be very careful of the folks that you teach your children to regard as trust worthy.Likely the major problem with CSA in 2x2ism is not the workers themselves, it is the completely unreasonable trust that workers demand (and get) - and the unlimited unmonitored access that they are given to homes and families. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2013 1:29:52 GMT -5
The challenge is - how do you educate the friends? Workers are in a position to do it, but they lack the wisdom and courage to make it happen. Anyone have any suggestions for how to educate the friends on child sexual abuse? The educational aspect is simple -- Nothing complicated!! The exact same things that are wise in every other social situation for your children. Be very careful who you give access to your children without your presence... and be very careful of the folks that you teach your children to regard as trust worthy.Likely the major problem with CSA in 2x2ism is not the workers themselves, it is the completely unreasonable trust that workers demand (and get) - and the unlimited unmonitored access that they are given to homes and families. I'll ask a question similar to before. How do you teach your children to identify who is trustworthy and who are the child sexual abusers? What characteristics do they have such that you can predict who is going to attempt to assault them? Who is going to teach the parents how to do this? You say it's not complicated. Well, not complicated on paper anyway! |
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 18, 2013 1:51:51 GMT -5
The challenge is - how do you educate the friends? Workers are in a position to do it, but they lack the wisdom and courage to make it happen. Anyone have any suggestions for how to educate the friends on child sexual abuse?
Could any on this earth teach as well as He?.
If God is the one doing the education, he's done a lousy job of it so far!
I'm beginning to think you just like to kick up the dust & don't care where it lands! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2013 2:01:25 GMT -5
The educational aspect is simple -- Nothing complicated!! The exact same things that are wise in every other social situation for your children. Be very careful who you give access to your children without your presence... and be very careful of the folks that you teach your children to regard as trust worthy.Likely the major problem with CSA in 2x2ism is not the workers themselves, it is the completely unreasonable trust that workers demand (and get) - and the unlimited unmonitored access that they are given to homes and families. I'll ask a question similar to before. How do you teach your children to identify who is trustworthy and who are the child sexual abusers? What characteristics do they have such that you can predict who is going to attempt to assault them? Who is going to teach the parents how to do this? You say it's not complicated. Well, not complicated on paper anyway! My experience is that by default, most loving parents have an effective built in spirit of protection for their children -- and in most cases it is sufficient. 2x2ism with its doctrinal demand of unquestioning moral trust for workers, effectively disengages this natural protection and leaves children wide open for danger. Within 2x2ism, the right to question the moral superiority of 'the work' is completly off limits and clearly punishable - (ask us about it!!!) Taking a class in 'pedophile recognition' isn't going to be a big help in this case, in my opinion. Of course 2x2ism isn't the only danger -- but stress, and lack of time with ones children can also open the door to danger.  |
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Post by fixit on Jan 18, 2013 2:21:39 GMT -5
2x2ism with its doctrinal demand of unquestioning moral trust for workers, effectively disengages this natural protection and leaves children wide open for danger. Within 2x2ism, the right to question the moral superiority of 'the work' is completly off limits and clearly punishable - (ask us about it!!!) Taking a class in 'pedophile recognition' isn't going to be a big help in this case, in my opinion. So far you've defined the problem. What can you suggest to prevent further child sexual abuse in the church and help past victims heal? I think we need to get child sex offenders off of the platform and out of children's homes. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2013 5:45:11 GMT -5
I can understand where you're coming from RAM, leaving them to their folly is one option. What about friends and family and the many good sincere people in the church? Perhaps by remaining in our place we can help them in their relationship with God in spite of the error of the leadership? You mean concentrate on a relationship with God and leave things as they are with the serious wayward problems? What did Jesus say about doing one thing and leaving the other undone? When Jesus said "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and render unto God that which is God's," I NOW believe that was a much further reaching instruction than just paying taxes. It is advice regarding a very necessary two-pronged approach towards life. The things of this life and the things of the next life are often two separate issues and need to be addressed with this understanding, RATHER THAN LEAVING EVERYTHING TO GOD which is very often a cop out! |
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Post by rational on Jan 18, 2013 7:48:18 GMT -5
Ever heard of God? Could any on this earth teach as well as He? Seems to me by the answers in this thread that some only want to rely on man teaching them. I think everyone here has heard of god. But for the last 6,000 years how has his/her record been on preventing child abuse? Does your god care when a child is being tortured and/or killed? As an omnipotent and omniscient being has s/he ever stepped in and stopped the abuse? This is a criminal issue, not a spiritual issue. |
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Post by rational on Jan 18, 2013 7:53:39 GMT -5
My experience is that by default, most loving parents have an effective built in spirit of protection for their children -- and in most cases it is sufficient. And a little open and honest communication. Or any help since it may well install a feeling of false ability. In most cases pedophiles are recognized at the time of their first offense. They are good at what they do (gaining the confidence of others) and that is what makes prevention so difficult. |
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Post by rational on Jan 18, 2013 8:02:28 GMT -5
I'll ask a question similar to before. How do you teach your children to identify who is trustworthy and who are the child sexual abusers? You can't. If the criminals could be identified they could be stopped. You don't have to teach identification. Just have the children know that they can always report identified behaviors to their parents. If they tell you that Uncle Bob likes them to sit on his lap it may be that Bob just likes to read children's books but if the behavior is noted the parents can assess the situation. Children need to be empowered to say "No!" to any adult and any behavior with which they are uncomfortable. They need to know the boundaries and their bodies well enough to be able to describe in unquestionable detail what they experienced. It isn't. It will not happen overnight but there has to be a starting point or it will never happen. |
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Post by philsmiley on Jan 18, 2013 8:58:52 GMT -5
I agree with Edgar on this.
Within our fellowship people are afraid to challenge a worker, even when it comes to illegal offences such as child sex abuse. The problem is, if this problems are hidden - people are still under the mindset that "a worker would never do that".
The case in Australia is most worrying because it tells the friends & workers "don't report", it tells the victims "don't report" and it tells the abuser "carry on - but be a bit more careful" - it is a shambles.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2013 9:08:26 GMT -5
2x2ism with its doctrinal demand of unquestioning moral trust for workers, effectively disengages this natural protection and leaves children wide open for danger. Within 2x2ism, the right to question the moral superiority of 'the work' is completly off limits and clearly punishable - (ask us about it!!!) Taking a class in 'pedophile recognition' isn't going to be a big help in this case, in my opinion. So far you've defined the problem. What can you suggest to prevent further child sexual abuse in the church and help past victims heal? I think we need to get child sex offenders off of the platform and out of children's homes. Fixing 2x2ism is a hopeless task -- like I have said, many have tried and failed. The organizational doctine has made itself completely immune from the defence against obvious failing that normal organizations have. Every suggestion of change is warded off by the 'perfect way in Jesus' argument that they claim 100% monopoly on. You won't get sex offenders off the platform -- so get yourself out of the pews in front of it!!! Taking care of victims is another issue --an important one .. understanding is an important issue here -- and it won't be found inside 2x2ism. There are countless examples of this. Don't ignore them -- Healing won't start until the environment that caused the problem is left behind!! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2013 9:25:50 GMT -5
Fixing 2x2ism is a hopeless task -- like I have said, many have tried and failed. The organizational doctine has made itself completely immune from the defence against obvious failing that normal organizations have. Every suggestion of change is warded off by the 'perfect way in Jesus' argument that they claim 100% monopoly on.
Please don't overlook the power of God, He works in mysterious ways and in His own time; with God all things are possible.
It is said that a thousand years in our sight are but one day in God's sight.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2013 9:39:52 GMT -5
Fixing 2x2ism is a hopeless task -- like I have said, many have tried and failed. The organizational doctine has made itself completely immune from the defence against obvious failing that normal organizations have. Every suggestion of change is warded off by the 'perfect way in Jesus' argument that they claim 100% monopoly on. Please don't overlook the power of God; with God all things are possible, and God works in His own time. Why do you think God would be interested in fixing 2x2ism? Do you think he has changed his thinking regarding "a new patch on an old garment"? Matt 9:16-17 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse. [17] Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved. |
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Post by rational on Jan 18, 2013 9:47:23 GMT -5
Please don't overlook the power of God, He works in mysterious ways and in His own time; with God all things are possible. In the meantime there needs to be steps taken to protect children until god decides to step up to the task. Is it moral to allow children to continue to suffer simply because of a difference in time frames? Ask children/people who have been abused how long that time seemed to them? |
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Post by rational on Jan 18, 2013 9:49:30 GMT -5
Why do you think God would be interested in fixing 2x2ism? Do you think he has changed his thinking regarding "a new patch on an old garment"? Is this a 2x2 issue? It is possible to consider it as one but it is really an issue of abuse and it is not one of the exclusive parts of either the F&W or christianity. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2013 9:58:48 GMT -5
Fixing 2x2ism is a hopeless task -- like I have said, many have tried and failed. The organizational doctine has made itself completely immune from the defence against obvious failing that normal organizations have. Every suggestion of change is warded off by the 'perfect way in Jesus' argument that they claim 100% monopoly on. Please don't overlook the power of God; with God all things are possible, and God works in His own time. Why do you think God would be interested in fixing 2x2ism? Do you think he has changed his thinking regarding "a new patch on an old garment"? Matt 9:16-17 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse. [17] Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved. Edgar, don't get too hung up on 2x2ism as you put it; I am thinking on a wider plane/plain. God is interested in fixing things for His faithful people whether they be in 2x2ism, as you put it, or elsewhere. He will fix things for those of His faithful people wheresoever they are. I sincerely believe that. Don't you believe that they are faithful people in 2x2ism? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2013 10:05:03 GMT -5
Why do you think God would be interested in fixing 2x2ism? Do you think he has changed his thinking regarding "a new patch on an old garment"? Is this a 2x2 issue? It is possible to consider it as one but it is really an issue of abuse and it is not one of the exclusive parts of either the F&W or christianity. Are you suggesting that this issue should be eliminated from these discussion boards because you claim it is not a 2x2 issue? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2013 10:27:52 GMT -5
Please don't overlook the power of God, He works in mysterious ways and in His own time; with God all things are possible. In the meantime there needs to be steps taken to protect children until god decides to step up to the task. Is it moral to allow children to continue to suffer simply because of a difference in time frames? Ask children/people who have been abused how long that time seemed to them? No Rational, I am not saying or advocating that at all, look at my other postings on this subject, don't try to distort things just for the sake of arguement. CSA is universal and needs to be erased, whether it be in Churches, homes, schools, sports or where ever. Murder and violence etc. is also universal, and every Country has taken steps to cope with these things, with the introduction of appropriate punishment, but these crimes have not be eliminated they still continue and will do so until God steps in to end it all. PS. I know that you do not believe in God, so you would not appreciate this line of reasoning, because we are not on the same wave length. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2013 10:53:06 GMT -5
In the meantime there needs to be steps taken to protect children until god decides to step up to the task. Is it moral to allow children to continue to suffer simply because of a difference in time frames? Ask children/people who have been abused how long that time seemed to them? No Rational, I am not saying or advocating that at all, look at my other postings on this subject, don't try to distort things just for the sake of arguement. CSA is universal and needs to be erased, whether it be in Churches, homes, schools, sports or where ever. Murder and violence etc. is also universal, and every Country has taken steps to cope with these things, with the introduction of appropriate punishment, but these crimes have not be eliminated they still continue and will do so until God steps in to end it all. PS. I know that you do not believe in God, so you would not appreciate this line of reasoning, because we are not on the same wave length. Don't worry about rational who seems to have a picture of God as an invisible man floating around manipulating events, which I don't blame him for rejecting. The truth is, God lives in everyone as truth and love and God will prevail if we allow him to work. God has prevented many child abuse situations and will continue to do so. |
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Post by quizzer on Jan 18, 2013 11:05:05 GMT -5
The challenge is - how do you educate the friends? Workers are in a position to do it, but they lack the wisdom and courage to make it happen. Anyone have any suggestions for how to educate the friends on child sexual abuse? Ever heard of God? Could any on this earth teach as well as He? Seems to me by the answers in this thread that some only want to rely on man teaching them. kiwi, are you telling us that you've sat through meetings, gospel meetings, conventions, worker visits, union meetings, and get-togethers (so much time with God's people) and still can't understand the difference between good and evil (such as CSA)? Please, stop showing the meetings as nothing but a waste of time for those who would like to serve God! |
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