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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2013 14:37:09 GMT -5
Please tell us how a worker can be fired? They collect no wages. Kicked out of the work, meeting, left on the side of the road?  I recall a saying that some workers would use from time to time, "the friends didn't hire me, so they can't fire me." I have wondered why it is that the workers' say that the Lord called them into the ministry but overlook the fact that workers' have been sent home over the years mostly via overseer insecurity to their "authority" being questioned. If the Lord does call the workers to be His servants, then how dare a mere man overrule the Lord's calling? Where is the faith? This seems to have been a simple "power play", no different than any other worldly institution. So much for being as little children and the least. Frankly speaking the question about the Lord calling some workers to be His servants is debatable; judging from some of the things (comments)I have read here by ex-workers from time to time since 2003 when I first joined this forum, they were pressured and cajoles and persuaded by family members, friends and even workers to offer for the work. "Offering" in my opinion is not necessarily the same as a calling from God. A calling from God would presumably come from God to the person's heart directly. Workers are not "hired" servants in the normal sense of the word, they do not have legally binding contracts as hired servants normally do; they are spiritual members and Ministers of the Gospel in the fellowship organization, F&W's, so to speak; however, they do have to go through a formal acceptance process/procedure by the senior hierarchy of the Fellowship who will have given them the relevant acceptable operational practices of the fellowship, if accepted as a worker. I would prefer to say that a worker has been relieved of his/her responsibilities as a worker, rather than to say he or she has been fired. It amounts to the same thing in the end, but they are not hired so they cannot be fired. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2013 14:52:36 GMT -5
Where are the CSA laws in SA? This is usually the place to begin with a CSA case. When witnesses are vilified and potential witnesses intimidated by the ministry, the CSA may never be brought to the attention of child protection authorities. Wow! you make the fellowship look like a branch of the mafia instead of a fellowship of love in the kingdom. |
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Post by Greg on Jan 14, 2013 15:16:32 GMT -5
When witnesses are vilified and potential witnesses intimidated by the ministry, the CSA may never be brought to the attention of child protection authorities. Wow! you make the fellowship look like a branch of the mafia instead of a fellowship of love in the kingdom. Fellowship. Seems to be key. The F&W as a whole or group is a fellowship. The fellowship has basically four types of areas of responsibility. The first is the largest and this is under the last word overseer (boss/don/godfather). The next is rather regional and is under overseers (underbosses). The third is smallest regional and is governed by head workers (caporegime/lieutenants). The last area is "the field" and is territory given to basic workers (soldiers/earners). So, not a branch of the so-called mafia, but its own organization/fellowship/power grid. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2013 15:34:48 GMT -5
In order to understand the firing process, you have to understand the hiring process. Basically, no worker becomes a worker without their application and acceptance by an overseer. That overseer decides to hire them (without a regular guaranteed wage), assigns them a companion and a field in which the friends provide their wage in the form of home hospitality, a means of transportation and cash donations as they see fit. In the firing process, the worker has his companion and field removed from him, and therefore his means to continue his worker career. If workers actually went out on "faith lines", none of the above would be relevant. They would continue to preach the gospel on faith. Very few do, although there are examples such as Eddie Cooney. What would happen if the worker did continue as the Lord called him, do you think that any friends that would continue to support him would be excommunicated as has happened on multiple occasions in the past? Are the friends allowed, through faith and love, to continue supporting the worker? Nope- this would be an affront to the overseer's "authority" and would not be tolerated. God doesn't enter into these decisions. I think the Cooney example is worth examining for that question. When Cooney was kicked out, quite a few F&Ws left and became the "Cooneyites" as we know them today (pretty much gone now). So Cooney kept preaching but received support only from them and was cast out by the mainstream F&Ws without further support or hospitality except in some brave instances. Today, a rogue worker is unlikely to find any significant support among mainstream friends. Another example is Marg Magowan after she was fired for visiting people hurt by the excommunications. In my conversations with her, she was looking for something to open up but nothing ever did in the ministry profession. Any of the friends supporting her would have been subject to censure or excommunication. There would have been no support for her except from exes, none of whom are interested in reconstituting a 2x2 ministry system. So she moved on. |
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Post by fixit on Jan 14, 2013 16:03:28 GMT -5
When witnesses are vilified and potential witnesses intimidated by the ministry, the CSA may never be brought to the attention of child protection authorities. Wow! you make the fellowship look like a branch of the mafia instead of a fellowship of love in the kingdom. While they behave as the mafia they make themselves look like the mafia. |
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Post by fixit on Jan 14, 2013 16:18:28 GMT -5
I would prefer to say that a worker has been relieved of his/her responsibilities as a worker, rather than to say he or she has been fired. It amounts to the same thing in the end, but they are not hired so they cannot be fired. Sanitize it if you please, but here's the reality: A brother or sister disposes of all their assets and walks away from their career. They forgo marriage, children of their own, and a home of their own as preconditions to join the ministry staff. If they become aware of ungodliness in the ranks and bring it to the overseer's attention they can be cast aside like a child's out-of-favor rag doll. They are simply sent home and dropped off of the workers list. Jesus never intended any believer to have that kind of power, but that is what the friends have allowed to develop over time. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2013 17:48:58 GMT -5
Well there is scripture to support the expulsion of those who behave immoraly and sinfully.
Matthew 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and if your right hand causes you to offend, cut it off, and cast it from you: for it is better for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell.
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Post by fixit on Jan 14, 2013 17:51:04 GMT -5
Partaker: What would you think about the immoral doing the expelling?
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Post by landdownunder on Jan 14, 2013 17:52:02 GMT -5
Not sure if I believe you, Mr. Fixit. Folk on the TTT and TMB don't worry too much about what Paul wrote, believe or how he lived. So don't quote him.  ps what's on tele' tonight? Desperate Housewives? Sex in the City? Gossip Girl? Work Out? Melrose Place? Tudors? Northern Exposure? The L-Word? Moonlighting? This stuff would have been banned 30 years ago. But wouldn't it be more titillating for you? That is pathetic, Bert. I am ashamed to belong to the same church as you, with those views. Do you have no compassion for this worker who has lost his job through raising serious CSA concerns with the overseer of Vic? What about the victims, do you care for them or simply for the tattered reputation of your church and some of its immoral workers? I am praying for you. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2013 18:04:21 GMT -5
Partaker: What would you think about the immoral doing the expelling? That is easy to answer- unjust. I personally do not support or encourage immoral behaviour of any kind, or by anyone. Is that clear enough? It is totally unjust and unfair to knock the stuffing out of the bearer of bad news. He is just a messenger. |
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Post by sharonw on Jan 14, 2013 20:40:22 GMT -5
None of us still can judge this case knowing only the above information. As I have stated before, I have been witness to a witch-hunt. You can imagine how the victim's life, and his wife's life was turned upside down. He could have, however, prevented this from happening had he heeded warnings. I would never allow myself to be put in a position to be accused of such an atrocious thing, but I can tell you, if I ever was. The first thing I would do is pay for my own polygraph test, and IMMEDIATELY take one. This would at least prove to others that you have nothing to hide, and you want the truth to be shown. I know these test are not 100 percent, and people can beat them. I also know that they are invalid in court. Why do not people use this avenue more, just as a way to clear their own name? - Of course, that is assuming they are not guilty.. I've heard that even the most honest people can fail a polygraph test! www.police-test.net/clickbankpolygraph.htm |
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Post by sharonw on Jan 14, 2013 20:50:32 GMT -5
Please tell us how a worker can be fired? They collect no wages. Kicked out of the work, meeting, left on the side of the road? I recall a saying that some workers would use from time to time, "the friends didn't hire me, so they can't fire me." I have wondered why it is that the workers' say that the Lord called them into the ministry but overlook the fact that workers' have been sent home over the years mostly via overseer insecurity to their "authority" being questioned. If the Lord does call the workers to be His servants, then how dare a mere man overrule the Lord's calling? Where is the faith? This seems to have been a simple "power play", no different than any other worldly institution. So much for being as little children and the least. Power plays by workers are going to be more and more common simply because with the CSA issue having been brought to the very top of notice and workers have been forced to admit, and/or exonerate their peers or themselves due to their own life is not so lily-white.....the secrets that the workership has hidden for nearly the whole life of the 2x2 fellowship is causing the workers to lose power and reputations are becoming pretty black...so we'll see workers doing everything they can to keep their powered positions as long as they can and it will most likely continue at the expense of younger and less powered workers, such as in this case. I hope this experience will teach anyone and esp. underling workers that know for a certainty that there's been such a crime committed by one of their peers, that they've learned to go straight to the authorities and remain incognito, at least for a time while the authorities do the legal things such as investigation, etc |
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Post by sharonw on Jan 14, 2013 20:56:48 GMT -5
I recall a saying that some workers would use from time to time, "the friends didn't hire me, so they can't fire me." I have wondered why it is that the workers' say that the Lord called them into the ministry but overlook the fact that workers' have been sent home over the years mostly via overseer insecurity to their "authority" being questioned. If the Lord does call the workers to be His servants, then how dare a mere man overrule the Lord's calling? Where is the faith? This seems to have been a simple "power play", no different than any other worldly institution. So much for being as little children and the least. Frankly speaking the question about the Lord calling some workers to be His servants is debatable; judging from some of the things (comments)I have read here by ex-workers from time to time since 2003 when I first joined this forum, they were pressured and cajoles and persuaded by family members, friends and even workers to offer for the work. "Offering" in my opinion is not necessarily the same as a calling from God. A calling from God would presumably come from God to the person's heart directly. Workers are not "hired" servants in the normal sense of the word, they do not have legally binding contracts as hired servants normally do; they are spiritual members and Ministers of the Gospel in the fellowship organization, F&W's, so to speak; however, they do have to go through a formal acceptance process/procedure by the senior hierarchy of the Fellowship who will have given them the relevant acceptable operational practices of the fellowship, if accepted as a worker. I would prefer to say that a worker has been relieved of his/her responsibilities as a worker, rather than to say he or she has been fired. It amounts to the same thing in the end, but they are not hired so they cannot be fired. That's what a volunteer fireman said...I volunteer, and they can't fire me....and that's what the district did later on down the road...they fired the volunteer fireman! It can and is done. |
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 15, 2013 0:06:24 GMT -5
I would never allow myself to be put in a position to be accused of such an atrocious thing, but I can tell you, if I ever was. The first thing I would do is pay for my own polygraph test, and IMMEDIATELY take one.
This would at least prove to others that you have nothing to hide, and you want the truth to be shown.
I know these test are not 100 percent, and people can beat them. I also know that they are invalid in court.
Why do not people use this avenue more, just as a way to clear their own name? - Of course, that is assuming they are not guilty..
There are too many false readings!
That is why they aren't valid in a court room.
People who aren't guilty often want to take a lie detector test immediately!
They think that it will clear them.
It doesn't!
The first thing they should do is get an attorney!
The first thing an attorney will tell you is to NOT get a lie detector test! |
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Post by menatwork on Jan 15, 2013 5:16:46 GMT -5
Not sure if I believe you, Mr. Fixit. Folk on the TTT and TMB don't worry too much about what Paul wrote, believe or how he lived. So don't quote him. ps what's on tele' tonight? Desperate Housewives? Sex in the City? Gossip Girl? Work Out? Melrose Place? Tudors? Northern Exposure? The L-Word? Moonlighting? This stuff would have been banned 30 years ago. But wouldn't it be more titillating for you? That is pathetic, Bert. I am ashamed to belong to the same church as you, with those views. Do you have no compassion for this worker who has lost his job through raising serious CSA concerns with the overseer of Vic? What about the victims, do you care for them or simply for the tattered reputation of your church and some of its immoral workers? I am praying for you. bert is a very strange character......it appears that he thinks the ministry is immune from CSA and discredits anyone who raises this as a serious problem. He has his head in the sand and has no regard for victims of abuse. I think he has spent too much time watching TV and not attending convention  |
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Post by brissiegirl on Jan 15, 2013 8:23:29 GMT -5
A worker in South Australia was recently fired from the work for reporting child sexual abuse to an overseer. We've heard about it up here. Is the worker who is the alleged violator still active in the work? |
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Post by brissiegirl on Jan 15, 2013 8:28:24 GMT -5
Is it legal in SA to sack someone for raising an allegation of CSA? Have the allegations of the sacked worker been referred to the police to check their accuracy?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2013 10:07:20 GMT -5
Is it legal in SA to sack someone for raising an allegation of CSA? I would fully expect that the Labour authorities in Australia would rule in favour of this worker as it would be egregiously wrong in any employment situation to be fired for this reason and he would be granted compensation regardless of the unusual, non-salary nature of his engagement. However, most workers are given a separation allowance when they are dismissed so there may be no additional compensation required. There are no indications of that. In many jurisdictions, these men would be considered mandatory reporters and required by law to report to authorities. Vic does not have such laws apparently unless there has been something recently. Where I live, all citizens are required by law to report suspicions of child abuse of any sort. |
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Post by jhjmr on Jan 15, 2013 10:41:19 GMT -5
Why would the F & W not want to report CSA? It is a crime and it is an abuse that can't be and won't be accepted. So, what dire excuse does the F & W have for not wanting it reported. That should raise a red flag among the fellowship because CSA is not a Godly act nor will it be accepted by God. Not reporting such an act is strictly a religious made decision made by the big guys, overseers, that are completely controlling what is accepted and how things are handled. How do people become so controlled that they actually think that CSA can be controlled by the overseers and how they handle it is O.K. That is known as the blind leading the blind to a nowhere land which is not heaven!
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Post by rational on Jan 15, 2013 10:45:33 GMT -5
The one "if" allowable, I think is, "if this be true, the parents should go to the authorities." If parents think the ministry holds their salvation in its hands they may be too terrified to go to the authorities. Sounds like it is time for some education. |
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Post by rational on Jan 15, 2013 10:47:07 GMT -5
Jesus never intended any believer to have that kind of power, but that is what the friends have allowed to develop over time. Can you support this claim? |
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Post by fixit on Jan 15, 2013 15:02:53 GMT -5
What do you think of the following scripture Rational?
Matt 20:24 When the ten heard about this, they were indignant with the two brothers.
25 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.
26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,
27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—
28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
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Post by fixit on Jan 15, 2013 15:10:15 GMT -5
Why would the F & W not want to report CSA? It is a crime and it is an abuse that can't be and won't be accepted. So, what dire excuse does the F & W have for not wanting it reported. That should raise a red flag among the fellowship because CSA is not a Godly act nor will it be accepted by God. Not reporting such an act is strictly a religious made decision made by the big guys, overseers, that are completely controlling what is accepted and how things are handled. How do people become so controlled that they actually think that CSA can be controlled by the overseers and how they handle it is O.K. That is known as the blind leading the blind to a nowhere land which is not heaven! Fear. Fear of "stretching forth the hand against the Lord's anointed". Fear of being cast out of the one-true-way to heaven. 1 Samuel 24:6And he said unto his men, The Lord forbid that I should do this thing unto my master, the Lord's anointed, to stretch forth mine hand against him, seeing he is the anointed of the Lord.
1 Samuel 24:10
Behold, this day thine eyes have seen how that the Lord had delivered thee to day into mine hand in the cave: and some bade me kill thee: but mine eye spared thee; and I said, I will not put forth mine hand against my lord; for he is the Lord's anointed.
1 Samuel 26:9
And David said to Abishai, Destroy him not: for who can stretch forth his hand against the Lord's anointed, and be guiltless?
1 Samuel 26:11
The Lord forbid that I should stretch forth mine hand against the Lord's anointed: but, I pray thee, take thou now the spear that is at his bolster, and the cruse of water, and let us go.
1 Samuel 26:23
The Lord render to every man his righteousness and his faithfulness; for the Lord delivered thee into my hand to day, but I would not stretch forth mine hand against the Lord's anointed.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2013 15:20:35 GMT -5
Why would the F & W not want to report CSA? It is a crime and it is an abuse that can't be and won't be accepted. So, what dire excuse does the F & W have for not wanting it reported. That should raise a red flag among the fellowship because CSA is not a Godly act nor will it be accepted by God. Not reporting such an act is strictly a religious made decision made by the big guys, overseers, that are completely controlling what is accepted and how things are handled. How do people become so controlled that they actually think that CSA can be controlled by the overseers and how they handle it is O.K. That is known as the blind leading the blind to a nowhere land which is not heaven! There are probably all kinds of excuses. 1.Bring shame on the ministry and fellowship. 2.Don't believe it happened. 3.Think it was just a minor incident, not a horrific crime. 4.Have no clue of the devastating effects of CSA. 5.Don't want to get involved. 6.Don't know what to do. 7.Don't know who to call. 8.Think that the solution is an apology and forgiveness. 9.Think it happened too long ago and the victim should "get over it". There's probably lots more. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2013 15:24:14 GMT -5
Aren't we all sexually immoral at times? Careful fixit -- there is a big risk you will be all alone in your little corner.
Remember what Jesus said to the folks that came with the stones!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2013 17:54:29 GMT -5
Aren't we all sexually immoral at times? Careful fixit -- there is a big risk you will be all alone in your little corner. Remember what Jesus said to the folks that came with the stones! Careful Edgar, your wife might read here. ;D |
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Post by fixit on Jan 15, 2013 18:03:50 GMT -5
Aren't we all sexually immoral at times? Careful fixit -- there is a big risk you will be all alone in your little corner. Remember what Jesus said to the folks that came with the stones! Your argument is not with me - its with the apostle Paul. He said to expel sexually immoral people. Of course, child sexual abuse is a different matter again. It's evil and its criminal, and we all should make a stand for the protection of children. Perhaps Jesus had CSA in mind when he said: Matthew 18:6
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Mark 9:42
And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
Luke 17:2
It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
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Post by jondough on Jan 16, 2013 0:40:09 GMT -5
Why would the F & W not want to report CSA? It is a crime and it is an abuse that can't be and won't be accepted. So, what dire excuse does the F & W have for not wanting it reported. That should raise a red flag among the fellowship because CSA is not a Godly act nor will it be accepted by God. Not reporting such an act is strictly a religious made decision made by the big guys, overseers, that are completely controlling what is accepted and how things are handled. How do people become so controlled that they actually think that CSA can be controlled by the overseers and how they handle it is O.K. That is known as the blind leading the blind to a nowhere land which is not heaven! I don't know, ask Bert. |
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