Expel Sexually Immoral Brethren?

[emmarr75]

Hi Edgar

There seems to be lots of grey between "throwing the first stone" and "good men doing nothing".

I personally agree with you that we shouldn't condemn our fellow sinner (we too are all guilty of sin).

I do, however, welcome the Royal Commission into CSA in Australia. I see it as an opportunity for the friends and workers to acknowledge some pretty serious misdemeanours that have happened, to grieve and to move forward with God's grace.

Given that the commission does not have powers to prosecute - people should have no fear in voicing their concerns. The commission itself will not publish anything publically if it is deemed to be libel. All info it recieves will be carefully checked before it is published.

Regards

emmarr75

[Deleted]

fixit - No one has questioned the issue of the rights and wrongs involved -- but regarding your theme of sentencing - Take a look at Jesus example in John 8:4-11. Jesus tactic of asking the 'accusers' to look at themselves first -- was effective. "More stones" won't solve all the problems!!!

Edgar



They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. [5] Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? [6] This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. [7] So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. [8] And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. [9] And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. [10] When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? [11] She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

[jondough]

Edgar, are you suggesting that we leave an adult that has molested little children, to roam freely amongst our children because they have apologized? Do you not understand that these type of people cannot control their urges even when they wish they could?

This is ridiculous that you would even suggest this. There are child molesters in prison that have asked that they remain locked up because they know if they are let out, that they will do it again.

its not about throwing stones. Its about protecting innocent little children.

[Deleted]

Jan 16, 2013 0:48:39 GMT -5 jondough said:

Edgar, are you suggesting that we leave an adult that has molested little children, to roam freely amongst our children because they have apologized? Do you not understand that these type of people cannot control their urges even when they wish they could?

This is ridiculous that you would even suggest this. There are child molesters in prison that have asked that they remain locked up because they know if they are let out, that they will do it again.

its not about throwing stones. Its about protecting innocent little children.

Amen to that. Sexual immorality between consenting adults is one thing, let's hold off on the stones there. Sexual criminality is quite another. Criminals who ruin the lives of children must be appropriately dealt with so that they cannot continue. Incarceration so they can't offend again is one such solution. These are not sins of two adults in agreement, or one adult breaking the agreement with another, CSA are heinous crimes against children.

[fixit]

Sexually immoral workers are better out of the work.

I fail to see how their gospel can have any power if they can't control their own lust.

Child sexual abusers are a whole lot worse. They are criminals that need to be apprehended to prevent further damage to innocent children.

How hypocritical, to preach the gospel to kids that they've sexually abused!

If you don't understand the devastating effect of this evil crime then please do some research.

Or at least stop defending and protecting these guys. Please get out of the way so that those who understand the gravity of CSA can get something done about it.

[ajourneyman]

Wow, here we go again , been off this board for almost a year - and we are back to the same subject over and over and over. Have some workers committed child abuse - Sure , but the only reason this subject is brought up by people is to discredit the work and workers. Have some workers in the JW's (Jehovah Witnesses - Mormons - Hasidic (orthodox) jews - Baptists , all protestant churches, etc , etc , etc. Oh almost forgot the Catholics there. Yes , I am sure - So , therefore - all beliefs are invaled, not because of doctrine or Biblical teachings but because some individuals do what the scriptures say not to do. That kind of thinking leads to mfathers have abused their kids , so father are bad and wrong - all of them - Come on people , think for a change

[fixit]

Jan 16, 2013 1:12:40 GMT -5 ajourneyman said:

...the only reason this subject is brought up by people is to discredit the work and workers.

You're wrong about that ajourneyman.

I want to protect children from sexual predators whether they are workers or not.

I want those who've been sexually abused as children to know that some of us actually care deeply for them, and I want justice for them so they can heal and move on.

I also want the sexual predators out of the work so that the honest sincere workers can be respected and trusted.

[Deleted]

So Mr Fixit, you aren't into worker bashing, just protecting children
And next you will be telling us you are working tirelessly with local and federal institutions - scouts, police, churches, charity, orphanages and the like to root out child abuse.

[Deleted]

So Mr Fixit, you aren't into worker bashing, just protecting children

No one should be against worker bashing whenever they ignore very serious risks to the most vulnerable within the fellowship and where workers are involved or could be involved.

[Deleted]

Jan 16, 2013 1:12:40 GMT -5 ajourneyman said:

Wow, here we go again , been off this board for almost a year - and we are back to the same subject over and over and over. Have some workers committed child abuse - Sure , but the only reason this subject is brought up by people is to discredit the work and workers. Have some workers in the JW's (Jehovah Witnesses - Mormons - Hasidic (orthodox) jews - Baptists , all protestant churches, etc , etc , etc. Oh almost forgot the Catholics there. Yes , I am sure - So , therefore - all beliefs are invaled, not because of doctrine or Biblical teachings but because some individuals do what the scriptures say not to do. That kind of thinking leads to mfathers have abused their kids , so father are bad and wrong - all of them - Come on people , think for a change

The issue keeps coming up here because child abuse incidents continues to come up in the fellowship. Think about that for a bit. If child abuse was being properly dealt with in the fellowship, the issue would disappear. It has absolutely nothing to do with worker bashing. Workers are bashing themselves.

If you want something to think about, think about a worker who reports CSA, then gets dismissed by the overseer. Do you have any idea how despicably wrong that is? You should be embarrassed to be associated with such an individual. Do you realize how much danger there is to children in this system of home stays when child offenders are allowed to continue to stay in homes with children and be considered celebrated guests? Your post indicates that you don't think about this at all.

There are ways to eliminate this topic which has nothing to do with worker bashing. Think about it.

[Deleted]

Jan 16, 2013 3:34:23 GMT -5 fixit said:

Jan 16, 2013 1:12:40 GMT -5 ajourneyman said:

...the only reason this subject is brought up by people is to discredit the work and workers.

You're wrong about that ajourneyman.

I want to protect children from sexual predators whether they are workers or not.

I want those who've been sexually abused as children to know that some of us actually care deeply for them, and I want justice for them so they can heal and move on.

I also want the sexual predators out of the work so that the honest sincere workers can be respected and trusted.

I agree that there are questionable motives here -- The title and clearly the subject matter at the begining of the thread concernd 'sexual imorality'. CSA is a different issue in my opinion -- although slightly related.

Even regarding accusations of CSA in many cases I get the feeling that it is people bashing instead of any genuine interest in childrens welfare. CSA is obviously a serious crime and it is everyones (not only the workers) responsibility to take appropriate action. This is especially important now that we are well aware of the fact that 2x2 leadership is incapable of dealing with it at all --- Don't depend on them!!!

Without defending the crime involved it is important to remember that even those guilty of sexual abuse are people -- regardless of their eventual sin Jesus has died for them as well as for us others, that may like to regard ourselves as somewhat superior.

To me the issue is protecting children ... not bashing and showing contempt for perpetrators. I agree with ajourneyman that many times the issue of highlighting the issue is simply an oppurtunity to express contempt for folks obviously weaker.

As well, as I have mentioned before -- I believe that there are innocent folks that get wiped off the map without any chance for the true pix to hit the light. (especially within 2x2ism ) NO ONE will defend someone accused of CSA -- it is to much of a personal risk -- and just as guilt is often hard to prove -- innocence is even more impossible.

There are far more effective ways of defending our children than by identifying all the possible perpetrators.

[Deleted]

Jan 16, 2013 8:26:11 GMT -5 edgarmassey said:

---

There are far more effective ways of defending our children than by identifying all the possible perpetrators.

Let's hear about your solutions Edgar. Details please.

[Deleted]

NO ONE will defend someone accused of CSA -- it is to much of a personal risk -- and just as guilt is often hard to prove -- innocence is even more impossible.

Over the last few years I have not been alone on this forum in defending the rights of workers and others who have been accused of csa acts whilst the question of an investigation has been pending or is in actual progress.

Regularly it has been stressed these matters need to be looked at fairly, without prejudice and from an impartial viewpoint.

[Deleted]

It's little wonder that victims fear coming out when the first reaction will be: "oh, you are just engaging in worker bashing!" This has long been a very effective tool to keep victims underground and perps protected.

Then there is this logic: because there is a risk of 1-5% false accusations, then all accusations must cease.

Meanwhile, 15-20% of all boys and 20-25% of all girls are being sexually abused before reaching adulthood. We should all be outraged at this and demanding solutions where ever solutions can be found and enacted. What is it going to take to wake us all up?

[Deleted]

Jan 16, 2013 9:50:25 GMT -5 @clearday said:

It's little wonder that victims fear coming out when the first reaction will be: "oh, you are just engaging in worker bashing!" This has long been a very effective tool to keep victims underground and perps protected.

Then there is this logic: because there is a risk of 1-5% false accusations, then all accusations must cease.

Meanwhile, 15-20% of all boys and 20-25% of all girls are being sexually abused before reaching adulthood. We should all be outraged at this and demanding solutions where ever solutions can be found and enacted. What is it going to take to wake us all up?

I don't know where you got the percentage estimates from, but they are pretty appalling. Do they include the incidence of child sexual abuse within the home by family abusers, and family friends, do you think?

I has been estimated that there are far more abuses within the home and within families units than is admitted. It has been suggested that a possible cause is the widespread use of easily accessible pornographic materials viewed in the privacy of homes and elsewhere, via the Internet and on video recorders and other electronic devices.

Yes, what is it going to take to wake us all up, indeed. It is in the homes, in the churches, in schools, within sports, goodness gracious, is anything sacred these days? These youngsters are damaged for life, and the youngsters of today will be the next generation of tomorrow.
Ok, I'll go take my blood pressure tablets now.

[quizzer]

Jan 14, 2013 13:57:53 GMT -5 fixit said:

Jan 14, 2013 11:17:50 GMT -5 quizzer said:

Where are the CSA laws in SA? This is usually the place to begin with a CSA case.

When witnesses are vilified and potential witnesses intimidated by the ministry, the CSA may never be brought to the attention of child protection authorities.

Exactly why worker worship and being above the law are dangerous concepts in any society, including the 2x2s.

If there is the suspicion of CSA, turn the situation over to the authorities. Learn the laws. Care for the victim(s).

Then, if you wanna and have nothing better to do, talk to your overseer and/or local workers. This is simply for your amusement, and should not be regarded as a serious approach to CSA. The 2x2 workers have indicated that they don't care to know about these cases, and professing folks should realize that the workers/overseers are telling the truth in this matter.

[jondough]

As a professing person myself, I truly question the motive of those that would not want to rid our fellowship of evil. If it were within your home, would you react the same? Maybe you do this out of ignorance. For myself, I want it exposed and cleaned up, due to my love for the fellowship. I'm sorry folks, but it HAS to be brought to light, in order for it to be cleaned up and purged. It can be done no other way.

I'll ask it another way. If your child was in a classroom of a teacher that was suspected on more than one occasion of sexual abuse of children. What would your reaction be? Would you again attack the accusers? Would you attack the ones that wanted it exposed, and purged out of your school? What if another teacher with less tenure brought it to the attention of the Principle, so the Principle fires the teacher that brought it to him. What would your reaction be?

Please pull your head out of the sand.

I do understand that the motives of some on this board is simply to bash our fellowship. That's their problem, not mine.

Jesus said, " If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away." " if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away." You don't think this happens without some pain do you? If you think this kind of things do not happen within our fellowship, just check out the Wings website of those that HAVE been CONVICTED of CSA. One of the most atrocious ones was in our home while a couple of my children were just the age that this person loved. I know for sure that our child was never left alone with this man (FORTUNATELY!!!!). I can tell you for sure though that I wouldn't have even began to suspect this person would even think of the things he was convicted of (multiple convictions on multiple children). In fact, at the time, I wouldn't have hesitated for a second to leave my children alone this man. He was an elder worker. Super nice guy! Even to this day, I feel sorry for him. We completely trusted this man. I hardly believed it when I heard what he was accused of.

Let me tell you...If what happened to multiple other children, had happened to my son by this man - and I found out that allegations had been brought to an overseer and he was still allowed in my home?!! Or even worse, that someone was kicked out of the work for trying to bring it to light....There would have been some serious consequences.

So when there is an allegation (even one), it MUST be taken seriously. Those that bring it to light MUST not be punished!

The first step in cleaning up any problem is admitting to the problem. The opposite of this is denial. I guess the collateral damage of cleaning and purging of this evil is that others might have to know about it. Maybe even some "fellowship bashers" might be able to use it for bashing our fellowship.

So I ask you, Is this too high of a price to pay for this purging? Should everyone just remain quiet? Sorry, I have more love for my fellowship than to do this.

THANK YOU to the People at Wings for love and caring enough about our fellowship, that you are unselfishly giving of your time to do what you can to help!

[Deleted]

Jan 16, 2013 10:59:25 GMT -5 @partaker said:

Jan 16, 2013 9:50:25 GMT -5 @clearday said:

It's little wonder that victims fear coming out when the first reaction will be: "oh, you are just engaging in worker bashing!" This has long been a very effective tool to keep victims underground and perps protected.

Then there is this logic: because there is a risk of 1-5% false accusations, then all accusations must cease.

Meanwhile, 15-20% of all boys and 20-25% of all girls are being sexually abused before reaching adulthood. We should all be outraged at this and demanding solutions where ever solutions can be found and enacted. What is it going to take to wake us all up?

I don't know where you got the percentage estimates from, but they are pretty appalling. Do they include the incidence of child sexual abuse within the home by family abusers, and family friends, do you think?

I has been estimated that there are far more abuses within the home and within families units than is admitted. It has been suggested that a possible cause is the widespread use of easily accessible pornographic materials viewed in the privacy of homes and elsewhere, via the Internet and on video recorders and other electronic devices.

Yes, what is it going to take to wake us all up, indeed. It is in the homes, in the churches, in schools, within sports, goodness gracious, is anything sacred these days? These youngsters are damaged for life, and the youngsters of today will be the next generation of tomorrow.
Ok, I'll go take my blood pressure tablets now.

Studies indicate that the high end of false accusations of child abuse is 10%. However, a lot of those occur in custody cases where the child is convinced or coerced into accusing one parent so that the other gains a legal advantage for custody. This is quite common. Remove those situations from the equations and false accusations become much smaller.

The number of "unsubstantiated" cases is much higher of course, but that is not necessarily a false allegation. That's where the whole issue of false allegations gets murky. Obviously even guilty parties will claim false allegation when the allegation cannot be substantiated.....and then they claim victimhood themselves and raise fears among their peers that false allegations are common. It gets really tricky out there in these emotionally-charged subjects.

The unique thing about an accusation against a worker by a child is that the child is taught to highly esteem the workers. So if a child actually goes so far as to mention an allegation, the chances of it being true is extremely high. You just won't find professing parents coercing children against workers.

One of the greatest concerns we should have as professing people is with regard to the homestay system of life for the workers. Workers do not follow professional guidelines for homestay behaviour and parents are not aware of ordinary precautions which should be taken for trusted guests in the home. If workers (and parents) were to adopt such guidelines and implement them, it would go a long way to solving this problem.

Here are some guidelines that workers could adapt and adopt:

www.csainfo.info/

[Deleted]

There are far more effective ways of defending our children than by identifying all the possible perpetrators.
Oh Yeah! but at least if they are identified one can exercise caution and try to avoid them like the plague, as there arises the question of trust.
Opportunity and inclination is all it takes for a perpetrator to pounce. IMO

[Deleted]

Here are some guidelines that workers could adapt and adopt:

www.csainfo.info/

Thanks CD, I will closely study the document in detail.

[Deleted]

Substantiated false accusations made by children about csa in my view are extremely low in number. Many will be down to adults misunderstanding what a child actually means or what happened and of course there's the better safe than sorry type of reports. These should be regarded as "false alarms-good intent" rather than deliberate false accusations. These type of cases are unlikely to proceed far once investigations get under way as the truth of the matter is quickly established. Although embarrassing for a "suspect," they usually accept the situation once things are properly explained to them.

As will be appreciated, in many cases of csa or attempted csa, there is an insufficiency of evidence to prosecute, or the case folds at some point in the procedure. Most often this is where the cry of "innocent" is most loudly hailed from!

Basically the great majority of cases will be covered by:

1) False alarm - good intent (or equivalent understanding)

2) Insufficient evidence to prove a case, or the case folds at some point in the procedure.

3) Guilty

[fixit]

Jan 16, 2013 4:19:27 GMT -5 @hopwood said:

So Mr Fixit, you aren't into worker bashing, just protecting children
And next you will be telling us you are working tirelessly with local and federal institutions - scouts, police, churches, charity, orphanages and the like to root out child abuse.

How about this for an action plan:

1. Root out the child molesters from the scouting institutions who preach to our kids and live in our kids' homes.

2. Root out the child molesters from the police institutions who preach to our kids and live in our kids' homes.

3. Root out the child molesters from the church institutions (except our own) who preach to our kids and live in our kids' homes.

4. Root out the child molesters from the charity institutions who preach to our kids and live in our kids' homes.

5. Root out the child molesters from the orphanage institutions who preach to our kids and live in our kids' homes.

6. Root out the child molesters from any other institutions we can think of who preach to our kids and live in our kids' homes.

Then....

....if the ministry of our own church hasn't succeeded in totally destroying itself....

...perhaps it would be in order to consider ways of rooting out child molesters without hurting anyone's feelings and without casting any aspersions on "the Lord's anointed" or "God's Way on the earth" and without "casting stones".

Of course, only those of us who are "without sin" are qualified to work towards protecting our kids from sexual predators.

[ScholarGal]

Jan 16, 2013 1:12:40 GMT -5 ajourneyman said:

Wow, here we go again , been off this board for almost a year - and we are back to the same subject over and over and over. Have some workers committed child abuse - Sure , but the only reason this subject is brought up by people is to discredit the work and workers. Have some workers in the JW's (Jehovah Witnesses - Mormons - Hasidic (orthodox) jews - Baptists , all protestant churches, etc , etc , etc. Oh almost forgot the Catholics there. Yes , I am sure - So , therefore - all beliefs are invaled, not because of doctrine or Biblical teachings but because some individuals do what the scriptures say not to do. That kind of thinking leads to mfathers have abused their kids , so father are bad and wrong - all of them - Come on people , think for a change

I think jondough did a great job of explaining why the statement in bold is incorrect.

I care about addressing the issue precisely because I DO respect many of the workers. No one is saying that a CSA problem means the belief system is invalid.

If you're using a CSA problem to condemn the entire Catholic church or all of college football, then perhaps you need to take some time and think about what that really means. (Matthew 7:3-5) I have no power to change how the Catholic church works. I have no power over the decisions made by powerful college football programs. The only thing I can do is encourage workers and professing people to learn how to respond to a CSA allegation, and encourage parents and workers to recognize and avoid situations that would allow inappropriate behavior. Parents shouldn't be teaching their children to fear workers, rather parents should be teaching their children to speak up if they are being abused by anyone.

Society as a whole has changed how it responds to CSA allegations in the last 10-20 years. Frankly, this is not an area where we want to be 50 years behind society in addressing the problem.

[Persona non grata]

Jan 16, 2013 0:59:12 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Jan 16, 2013 0:48:39 GMT -5 jondough said:

Edgar, are you suggesting that we leave an adult that has molested little children, to roam freely amongst our children because they have apologized? Do you not understand that these type of people cannot control their urges even when they wish they could?

This is ridiculous that you would even suggest this. There are child molesters in prison that have asked that they remain locked up because they know if they are let out, that they will do it again.

its not about throwing stones. Its about protecting innocent little children.

Amen to that. Sexual immorality between consenting adults is one thing, let's hold off on the stones there. Sexual criminality is quite another. Criminals who ruin the lives of children must be appropriately dealt with so that they cannot continue. Incarceration so they can't offend again is one such solution. These are not sins of two adults in agreement, or one adult breaking the agreement with another, CSA are heinous crimes against children.

And Amen to that.

[Persona non grata]

Jan 16, 2013 1:12:40 GMT -5 ajourneyman said:

Wow, here we go again , been off this board for almost a year - and we are back to the same subject over and over and over. Have some workers committed child abuse - Sure , but the only reason this subject is brought up by people is to discredit the work and workers. Have some workers in the JW's (Jehovah Witnesses - Mormons - Hasidic (orthodox) jews - Baptists , all protestant churches, etc , etc , etc. Oh almost forgot the Catholics there. Yes , I am sure - So , therefore - all beliefs are invaled, not because of doctrine or Biblical teachings but because some individuals do what the scriptures say not to do. That kind of thinking leads to mfathers have abused their kids , so father are bad and wrong - all of them - Come on people , think for a change

Luke 18:1-8 Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. He said: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, ‘Grant me justice against my adversary.’

“For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, ‘Even though I don’t fear God or care what people think, yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won’t eventually come and attack me!’”

And the Lord said, “Listen to what the unjust judge says. And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”

Ajourneyman, do you think its wrong to keep bringing up this issue again and again? Jesus teaches us the power of persistence in obtaining justice.

[Persona non grata]

Jan 16, 2013 12:42:00 GMT -5 jondough said:

As a professing person myself, I truly question the motive of those that would not want to rid our fellowship of evil. If it were within your home, would you react the same? Maybe you do this out of ignorance. For myself, I want it exposed and cleaned up, due to my love for the fellowship. I'm sorry folks, but it HAS to be brought to light, in order for it to be cleaned up and purged. It can be done no other way.

I'll ask it another way. If your child was in a classroom of a teacher that was suspected on more than one occasion of sexual abuse of children. What would your reaction be? Would you again attack the accusers? Would you attack the ones that wanted it exposed, and purged out of your school? What if another teacher with less tenure brought it to the attention of the Principle, so the Principle fires the teacher that brought it to him. What would your reaction be?

Please pull your head out of the sand.

I do understand that the motives of some on this board is simply to bash our fellowship. That's their problem, not mine.

Jesus said, " If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away." " if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away." You don't think this happens without some pain do you? If you think this kind of things do not happen within our fellowship, just check out the Wings website of those that HAVE been CONVICTED of CSA. One of the most atrocious ones was in our home while a couple of my children were just the age that this person loved. I know for sure that our child was never left alone with this man (FORTUNATELY!!!!). I can tell you for sure though that I wouldn't have even began to suspect this person would even think of the things he was convicted of (multiple convictions on multiple children). In fact, at the time, I wouldn't have hesitated for a second to leave my children alone this man. He was an elder worker. Super nice guy! Even to this day, I feel sorry for him. We completely trusted this man. I hardly believed it when I heard what he was accused of.

Let me tell you...If what happened to multiple other children, had happened to my son by this man - and I found out that allegations had been brought to an overseer and he was still allowed in my home?!! Or even worse, that someone was kicked out of the work for trying to bring it to light....There would have been some serious consequences.

So when there is an allegation (even one), it MUST be taken seriously. Those that bring it to light MUST not be punished!

The first step in cleaning up any problem is admitting to the problem. The opposite of this is denial. I guess the collateral damage of cleaning and purging of this evil is that others might have to know about it. Maybe even some "fellowship bashers" might be able to use it for bashing our fellowship.

So I ask you, Is this too high of a price to pay for this purging? Should everyone just remain quiet? Sorry, I have more love for my fellowship than to do this.

THANK YOU to the People at Wings for love and caring enough about our fellowship, that you are unselfishly giving of your time to do what you can to help!

And right there is a message that deserves repeating. Over and over and over. Until justice is obtained.

[fixit]

I agree PNG.

I'd like to nominate JD's post for post of the week.

Jan 16, 2013 15:54:54 GMT -5 Persona non grata said:

Jan 16, 2013 12:42:00 GMT -5 jondough said:

As a professing person myself, I truly question the motive of those that would not want to rid our fellowship of evil. If it were within your home, would you react the same? Maybe you do this out of ignorance. For myself, I want it exposed and cleaned up, due to my love for the fellowship. I'm sorry folks, but it HAS to be brought to light, in order for it to be cleaned up and purged. It can be done no other way.

I'll ask it another way. If your child was in a classroom of a teacher that was suspected on more than one occasion of sexual abuse of children. What would your reaction be? Would you again attack the accusers? Would you attack the ones that wanted it exposed, and purged out of your school? What if another teacher with less tenure brought it to the attention of the Principle, so the Principle fires the teacher that brought it to him. What would your reaction be?

Please pull your head out of the sand.

I do understand that the motives of some on this board is simply to bash our fellowship. That's their problem, not mine.

Jesus said, " If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away." " if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away." You don't think this happens without some pain do you? If you think this kind of things do not happen within our fellowship, just check out the Wings website of those that HAVE been CONVICTED of CSA. One of the most atrocious ones was in our home while a couple of my children were just the age that this person loved. I know for sure that our child was never left alone with this man (FORTUNATELY!!!!). I can tell you for sure though that I wouldn't have even began to suspect this person would even think of the things he was convicted of (multiple convictions on multiple children). In fact, at the time, I wouldn't have hesitated for a second to leave my children alone this man. He was an elder worker. Super nice guy! Even to this day, I feel sorry for him. We completely trusted this man. I hardly believed it when I heard what he was accused of.

Let me tell you...If what happened to multiple other children, had happened to my son by this man - and I found out that allegations had been brought to an overseer and he was still allowed in my home?!! Or even worse, that someone was kicked out of the work for trying to bring it to light....There would have been some serious consequences.

So when there is an allegation (even one), it MUST be taken seriously. Those that bring it to light MUST not be punished!

The first step in cleaning up any problem is admitting to the problem. The opposite of this is denial. I guess the collateral damage of cleaning and purging of this evil is that others might have to know about it. Maybe even some "fellowship bashers" might be able to use it for bashing our fellowship.

So I ask you, Is this too high of a price to pay for this purging? Should everyone just remain quiet? Sorry, I have more love for my fellowship than to do this.

THANK YOU to the People at Wings for love and caring enough about our fellowship, that you are unselfishly giving of your time to do what you can to help!

And right there is a message that deserves repeating. Over and over and over. Until justice is obtained.

[Persona non grata]

I second the motion.

All in favour say "aye".

Jan 16, 2013 16:23:19 GMT -5 fixit said:

I agree PNG.

I'd like to nominate JD's post for post of the week.

Jan 16, 2013 15:54:54 GMT -5 Persona non grata said:

And right there is a message that deserves repeating. Over and over and over. Until justice is obtained.