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Post by StAnne on Mar 26, 2012 10:54:43 GMT -5
SharonA...I'll try to explain in personal and real ways that are MY experience in this "wrangling" about the Trinity. When I first came to TMB several years ago, there was this "wrangling" about the Trinity by some, seems Nathan was writing more then others at that time or that was who I read the most, but did get some of my pre-understanding from some of Stanne's writings or sharing of the catholic beliefs on it...though I NEVER have read any of the creeds ... Sharonw ... just so you know ... The Creeds are a profession of Trinitarian belief and faith. That's all they are. There isn't one word, or profession of faith, that isn't right from the Bible. Many churches also profess the Apostles Creed - some of the main ones ... Church of England Episcopal Lutheran Methodist Presbyterians Presbyterians are Christians......... We believe in the fundamental truths of the Christian faith, as expressed in historic Trinitarian statements such as the Nicene Creed or Apostles Creed. Families are brought into the membership of Presbyterian churches through a profession of faith in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. That profession of faith requires an understanding and affirmation of the following five truths: ... www.exeterpca.org/our_beliefs.htm
Churches professing the Nicene Creed ... The Nicene Creed has been normative for the Anglican Church, the Church of the East, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox churches, the Roman Catholic Church including the Eastern Catholic Churches, the Old Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church and many Protestant denominations, forming the eponymous mainstream definition of Christianity itself in "Nicene Christianity".[2] The Apostles' Creed, which in its present form is later, is also broadly accepted in the West, but is not used in the East.
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Post by JO on Mar 26, 2012 12:59:58 GMT -5
JO, a bit of sisterly advice here...IF you've read all of this rejection in subject to the Trinity and it pitches you off...PLEASE, take your adversity before God and ask Him what He feels is right...and IF HE feels that the concept is important "FOR your own spirit's sake and YOUR intimate relationship with our great God and Saviour" that God will reveal it to you when He sees the capability to do so, within your heart and mind. AND IF He never reveals it, just take it that according to God, it ISN"T necessary for you, though you're striving to please Him. Okay? Sharon, thanks for your sisterly advice. Its always good to go to God with our concerns but I'm not troubled about the trinity. I've not found it an issue in the 2x2 fellowship apart from on the internet. Trinitarianism becomes an issue on threads like this when friends and workers are accused of treating Jesus as "just a man" and condemned for their non-trinitarian viewpoint. This thread is about "unadulterated 2x2 doctrine". I wouldn't say 2x2s are anti-trinitarian so much as non-trinitarian. We seek a primitive Christianity that predates trinitarian theology. As Edward Cooney stated "we are earnestly contending for the faith once delivered to the Saints and trying to separate it from the traditions of men". Trinitarians will of course argue that the trinity can be seen from the first verse of Genesis and they're entitled to their opinions. Trinitarians call the Jews as witnesses that Jesus called himself God. I can't imagine the Jews, or for that matter the early Christians, would agree that there is a trinity in the OT. According to Wikipaedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity#HistoryThe first defence of the doctrine of the Trinity was in the early third century by the early church father Tertullian. He explicitly defined the Trinity as Father, Son and Holy Spirit...
...By the end of the 4th century, under the leadership of Basil of Caesarea, Gregory of Nyssa, and Gregory of Nazianzus (the Cappadocian Fathers), the doctrine had reached substantially its current form.
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Post by StAnne on Mar 26, 2012 13:57:12 GMT -5
According to Wikipaedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity#HistoryThe first defence of the doctrine of the Trinity was in the early third century by the early church father Tertullian. He explicitly defined the Trinity as Father, Son and Holy Spirit...
...By the end of the 4th century, under the leadership of Basil of Caesarea, Gregory of Nyssa, and Gregory of Nazianzus (the Cappadocian Fathers), the doctrine had reached substantially its current form. You failed to mention that if Tertullian had to defend the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, then it had been being taught for some time. (by the Apostles and their valid successors ... ) You also failed to mention from the same wiki source that the word Trinity was already in use ... The first of the early church fathers recorded as using the word Trinity was Theophilus of Antioch writing in the late second century. He defines the Trinity as God, His Word (Logos) and His Wisdom (Sophia)[63] in the context of a discussion of the first three weeks of creation. From the very Protestant site, CARM ... The following quotes show that the doctrine of the Trinity was indeed alive-and-well before the Council of Nicea:
Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.
"O Lord God almighty... I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).
Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.
"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).
Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.
"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988). "We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)
Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.
"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: ...one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all...'" (Against Heresies X.l)
Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.
"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation... [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).
Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.
"If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority... There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).
"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)
"Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification..." (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).
If, as the anti-Trinitarians maintain, the Trinity is not a biblical doctrine and was never taught until the council of Nicea in 325, then why do these quotes exist? The answer is simple: the Trinity is a biblical doctrine and it was taught before the council of Nicea in 325 A.D.
Part of the reason that the Trinity doctrine was not "officially" taught until the time of the Council of Nicea is because Christianity was illegal until shortly before the council. It wasn't really possible for official Christian groups to meet and discuss doctrine. For the most part, they were fearful of making public pronouncements concerning their faith. carm.org/early-trinitarian-quotes
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Post by Happy Feet on Mar 26, 2012 14:28:16 GMT -5
JO, I noticed you did not answer my question.
Do you believe Jesus was Immanuel, God with us or how do you explain the verse.
If this does not show that the Son was part of God, then I do not know what does. Who sustains all things by his powerful word? God or Jesus or Jesus is part of God, God said let their be light and there was light..... God sustains all things by his powerful word, Hebrews says this is Jesus
Hebrews 1: 1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
8 But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[e]
10 He also says, “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. 12 You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.”[f]
These verses clearly say that Jesus is part of God. Jesus is the exact representation of God's being, so God is represented through Jesus. Jesus also sustains all things through his word...
I have not seen any verses that do not say Jesus was part of God. In Genesis 1, God said let us make man after our image and it is clear that Jesus was a part of that.
Jesus laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens were the work of his hands - who created the heaven and earth? Jesus or God.... These verses say Jesus so Jesus was obviously a part of God.
The writer of Hebrews definitely believed Jesus was God. We either see Jesus as a mere man because he lived on earth as one, or we see him as the exact representation of God, and as one with God.
I see a beautiful picture of Jesus sitting there next to the Father on the throne of God (the 2 together on the throne) with the spirit doing it's work. It is the human part of God (Jesus) that comes back to earth to rule and reign. The spirit gives life to the believer. The Father, Jesus and the Spirit all doing their part. How could God come to work except in the form of a man.
Is Jesus just a man? I have to ask those who believe Jesus was just a man, do they know of any man who was born of a virgin, came alive after 3 days, is in heaven with the father, made the earth, holds it in their hand, is coming back again.... do you know of any man who can do that???
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Post by SharonArnold on Mar 26, 2012 16:49:28 GMT -5
[SharonA...I'll try to explain in personal and real ways that are MY experience in this "wrangling" about the Trinity. When I first came to TMB several years ago, there was this "wrangling" about the Trinity by some, seems Nathan was writing more then others at that time or that was who I read the most, but did get some of my pre-understanding from some of Stanne's writings or sharing of the catholic beliefs on it...though I NEVER have read any of the creeds or decrees by the Catholic antecedents...NEVER! Most came from Nathan or at least he put the thoughts there and I became greatly troubled because I could not understand what Nathan was speaking about. I'd never heard anything like it before, but I had to admit that I'd had notice all of my life that there were some verses in the bible that workers and friends alike just passed right over even IF they had read them alooud to their audience or we had to study those verses in our Wed. nite studies. It was like "sroom" flying across those verses...like one here and another a bit further along and another a bit further along and doing "piecemeal" studying. So in my troubled mind I took to praying about it, for I couldn't see any more then JO the profitability about it...for I'd been pretty well taught that Jesus was a sinless man and that we COULD make ourselves just like Him. So in my prayer I assigned this to God and said to God "God, please, IF YOU see that understanding the trinity concept is beneficial to me and my spiritual life and my acquaintance with my Lord and Saviour....please reveal it to me. Then I just consigned it to God that way....it took several weeks or a couple months later, I don't remember...but it was long enough that I'd begin to feel it wasn't within God's will that I understand it. But late one night while I was prayer, it seemed that every thought I had in my head had suddenly got turned off...I was no more thinking about the trinity concept at all...in fact I was actually worried over some family health and their care issues. But the real meaning of the trinity concept just seemed to fly right into the middle of all these other concerns and some of the scriptures that Nathan had quoted came with those thoughts and I begin to see just how Divine my Saviour was and always will be....John 1 was the major scriptures that dawned on me, what John had written and I believe John's version as he was Jesus' beloved Apostle...John as Jesus' best friend was privy to so much more that involves Jesus then the other Apostles...though I think in time they learned these things as well. What has this done for me? I cannot explain of the increase in my heart and mind and soul of the meaning of Jesus Christ to myself and my soul's welfare and my spirit's worshipping him....but Jesus has become so very much more precious to me for I've begun to understand just what it cost Jesus to come to the earth and take on mortal flesh....and that love DID lead him all the way to Calvary. I do not know of any other human flesh that has love like that. It is love from heaven, is all I can say. Sure, I'd like to be as loving as Jesus was, but I know my human flesh just will never get to that level of love...but I pray when I'm transformed to the kind of body He has, that my spirit will be like His as well...but I also know that I won't accomplish all of that in this life...but it also helps me as to where my hearts' treasures are...they are with our risen Saviour...our great God and Saviour. Does that help? Yes, that was very nice. I would have to say that, over the years, you are the only one who has attempted to explain it in personal and meaningful terms. I respect that – a lot. It was pretty much what I might have guessed what it might mean to people who have embraced the concept. But it baffles me that so few speak openly of the personal meaning of it. Perhaps it’s a “pearls before swine” sort of thinking – and, if it is, that’s okay too. For myself, I do not doubt the divinity of Christ. I am not a Trinitarian. I am not a Christian in any conventional sense. But, I am really cautious over attaching “salvation” (i.e., some special status) to a mere thought/idea/belief and separating myself from others who might not have the same thought/idea/belief that I do.
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Post by sharonw on Mar 26, 2012 17:49:34 GMT -5
JO, a bit of sisterly advice here...IF you've read all of this rejection in subject to the Trinity and it pitches you off...PLEASE, take your adversity before God and ask Him what He feels is right...and IF HE feels that the concept is important "FOR your own spirit's sake and YOUR intimate relationship with our great God and Saviour" that God will reveal it to you when He sees the capability to do so, within your heart and mind. AND IF He never reveals it, just take it that according to God, it ISN"T necessary for you, though you're striving to please Him. Okay? Sharon, thanks for your sisterly advice. Its always good to go to God with our concerns but I'm not troubled about the trinity. I've not found it an issue in the 2x2 fellowship apart from on the internet. Trinitarianism becomes an issue on threads like this when friends and workers are accused of treating Jesus as "just a man" and condemned for their non-trinitarian viewpoint. This thread is about "unadulterated 2x2 doctrine". I wouldn't say 2x2s are anti-trinitarian so much as non-trinitarian. We seek a primitive Christianity that predates trinitarian theology. As Edward Cooney stated "we are earnestly contending for the faith once delivered to the Saints and trying to separate it from the traditions of men". Trinitarians will of course argue that the trinity can be seen from the first verse of Genesis and they're entitled to their opinions. Trinitarians call the Jews as witnesses that Jesus called himself God. I can't imagine the Jews, or for that matter the early Christians, would agree that there is a trinity in the OT. According to Wikipaedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity#HistoryThe first defence of the doctrine of the Trinity was in the early third century by the early church father Tertullian. He explicitly defined the Trinity as Father, Son and Holy Spirit...
...By the end of the 4th century, under the leadership of Basil of Caesarea, Gregory of Nyssa, and Gregory of Nazianzus (the Cappadocian Fathers), the doctrine had reached substantially its current form. But in all likelihood, EC was a Trinitarian as were the "beginning workers"....why has the 2x2 fellowship turned coat against the Trinity? Probably as some have indicated on this thread, they just do NOT understand it and none of us understand it completely. I believe that the understanding of the "mysteries of Christ" and certainly the trinity is a "mystery" that is never fully understood in this life...BUT as I said, it is wise to pray to God to increase our "faith", so then likewise it would be wise to pray to God to increase our "understanding" of the "mysteries of Christ." I believe that what lost the Trinity from the fellowship is the "living witness doctrine" and we understand that this living witness doctrine has been the "push" of the 2x2 fellowship for many years and is noted to become more and more exclusive due to the imbedding of the "living witness doctrine"....the push has been that it is the workers who stand between mankind and salvation...that it is the workers who have the only capability of giving people salvation....and also the workers have made it an absolute necessity not only to hear the salvation gospel from them, but that also they are the ones who dictate what the outward appearance of their "possibly saved" friends. That uncertainty of salvation is what troubles me the most about the workers and friends. Why are they not sure of their "faith in Christ"? Is it because the workers have stepped in between then and Christ? I'm only asking, for i'm uncertain to what has happened to the fellowship that has not put Christ the ultimate part of our faith and hope in Him. I feel terrible that some of the friends and workers on their deathbeds cannot be comforted in their own salvation....for God's love would certainly want them to meet their earthly ending wrapped in His love.
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Post by sharonw on Mar 26, 2012 17:56:39 GMT -5
Yes, that was very nice. I would have to say that, over the years, you are the only one who has attempted to explain it in personal and meaningful terms. I respect that – a lot. It was pretty much what I might have guessed what it might mean to people who have embraced the concept. But it baffles me that so few speak openly of the personal meaning of it. Perhaps it’s a “pearls before swine” sort of thinking – and, if it is, that’s okay too. For myself, I do not doubt the divinity of Christ. I am not a Trinitarian. I am not a Christian in any conventional sense. But, I am really cautious over attaching “salvation” (i.e., some special status) to a mere thought/idea/belief and separating myself from others who might not have the same thought/idea/belief that I do. SharonA, thank you...as to why others do not try to explain what the Trinity means to them perhaps it is thought it is best to speak to the scriptures and expert opinions on the matter then trying to express the very ultimate greatness in being a part of the "mysteries of Christ" as Paul said...it is almost impossible to actually tell what it means...it's just getting to know more about our great God and SAviour...perhaps leading us into having MORE Faith in Jesus Christ's redeeming sacrifice.
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Post by JO on Mar 26, 2012 19:00:33 GMT -5
That uncertainty of salvation is what troubles me the most about the workers and friends. Why are they not sure of their "faith in Christ"? Is it because the workers have stepped in between then and Christ? I'm only asking, for i'm uncertain to what has happened to the fellowship that has not put Christ the ultimate part of our faith and hope in Him. I feel terrible that some of the friends and workers on their deathbeds cannot be comforted in their own salvation....for God's love would certainly want them to meet their earthly ending wrapped in His love. Sharon, I agree that this is a concern and it would stand a thread of its own I think. I can't imagine that the answer would lie in trinitarian, exclusivity, or once-saved-always-saved doctrines. The answer is in a closer relationship with God, knowing God, a living relationship with God rather than knowing a whole lot of theory about God. Sam Jones put it well: 'Twas life I got, not theory: His voice I did obey And entered in through Jesus, God's only way.
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Post by StAnne on Mar 26, 2012 23:06:50 GMT -5
I can't imagine that the answer would lie in trinitarian, exclusivity, or once-saved-always-saved doctrines. The answer is in a closer relationship with God, knowing God, a living relationship with God rather than knowing a whole lot of theory about God. Sam Jones put it well: 'Twas life I got, not theory: His voice I did obey And entered in through Jesus, God's only way. Perhaps you did, incorporated into the Body of Christ by the grace of baptism in the Trinitarian formula. May you come to know Christ as your Lord and your God in the fullness of who He is. Stop doubting and believe.' Thomas said to him,' My Lord and my God!' then Jesus told him, ' because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed'" (John 20:27-29).
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Post by bsnider on Mar 27, 2012 9:05:55 GMT -5
I believe that earlier is this thread, it was Nate who said that in the past, more in the fellowship believed in the Trinity, but now fewer do. Sorry, I can not quote what was said.
I remember when I attended the Truth fellowship in the early 1980s, a local elder, who I respected, said that "there is a Trinity". I had never heard any different from anyone in the group that I knew at the time. I knew little about the concept at the time, but I believed mostly believed it to be true. I was aware at the time that that was what most standard protestant denominations taught.
Later, I read the criticism of the fellowship from the Christian Research Institute. One of the many criticisms of the Truth fellowship ( 2 X2s) was that they denied the Trinity. Based on what I had seen at the time, I questioned why they said that, because I had never heard disagreement with the concept at the time.
Now it seems that the fellowship is getting away from the Trinity concept while earlier it was accepted though seldom taught in detail.
One said that EC (Ed Cooney) appeared to believe in the Trinity. It seems some recent revisions to hymms served to eliminate references to support the Trinity.
Well, I am an ex who believes the concept. I feel the deity of Jesus Christ is clearly taught in several locations, most clearly in John Chapter 1. The personhood of the Holy Spirit is a little harder to demonstrate, but I think it is taught. I feel that if Jesus is able to save people from the consequences of sin, he needs to be something more that a elder brother who happened to live a perfect life.
I could provide some of the same Bible references that were mentioned earlier.
Thanks,
Bruce
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Post by sharonw on Mar 27, 2012 12:00:38 GMT -5
I believe that earlier is this thread, it was Nate who said that in the past, more in the fellowship believed in the Trinity, but now fewer do. Sorry, I can not quote what was said. I remember when I attended the Truth fellowship in the early 1980s, a local elder, who I respected, said that "there is a Trinity". I had never heard any different from anyone in the group that I knew at the time. I knew little about the concept at the time, but I believed mostly believed it to be true. I was aware at the time that that was what most standard protestant denominations taught. Later, I read the criticism of the fellowship from the Christian Research Institute. One of the many criticisms of the Truth fellowship ( 2 X2s) was that they denied the Trinity. Based on what I had seen at the time, I questioned why they said that, because I had never heard disagreement with the concept at the time. Now it seems that the fellowship is getting away from the Trinity concept while earlier it was accepted though seldom taught in detail. One said that EC (Ed Cooney) appeared to believe in the Trinity. It seems some recent revisions to hymms served to eliminate references to support the Trinity. Well, I am an ex who believes the concept. I feel the deity of Jesus Christ is clearly taught in several locations, most clearly in John Chapter 1. The personhood of the Holy Spirit is a little harder to demonstrate, but I think it is taught. I feel that if Jesus is able to save people from the consequences of sin, he needs to be something more that a elder brother who happened to live a perfect life. I could provide some of the same Bible references that were mentioned earlier. Thanks, Bruce Thank you, Bruce. As I had quoted on the "Eternal Jesus" thread, that we have proof that John the best friend of Jesus left on record in Jesus' prayer in John 17, that Jesus was saying he wanted to have that glory that he had with the Father BEFORE the world ever was....seems that is an Eternal Jesus, eh? Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
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Post by JO on Mar 27, 2012 14:03:09 GMT -5
I have to wonder how exes can claim "Jesus was just a man" to them while in the fellowship. Hymn 20 is sung regularly: From heaven's glory, From His radiant throne above, Came our Redeemer In His wondrous love,
How can we grieve Him- Jesus, blessed Son of God -
Come to the Saviour, With thy weary load of care;
Saviour, my Saviour, Thou hast died to make me free;The next hymn, 21: If we but knew! O Jesus, Lord of all, Before whom angels bow and nations fall,Does that seem like "just a man"
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Post by sacerdotal on Mar 27, 2012 14:19:05 GMT -5
I have to wonder how exes can claim "Jesus was just a man" to them while in the fellowship. Hymn 20 is sung regularly: From heaven's glory, From His radiant throne above, Came our Redeemer In His wondrous love,
How can we grieve Him- Jesus, blessed Son of God -
Come to the Saviour, With thy weary load of care;
Saviour, my Saviour, Thou hast died to make me free;The next hymn, 21: If we but knew! O Jesus, Lord of all, Before whom angels bow and nations fall,Does that seem like "just a man" I've wondered that, too, JO. I have never heard from the workers or friends that Jesus was "just a man". Hardly, He is our all in all! Jesus came from heaven revealing. . . and he left Heaven's Glory out of love for His Father and us so that we might know them fully. He became a man in all point like unto us- and even took on the sins of the world- which as time goes by- I understand a bit more of just how much pain that that must have brought Him and the separation that that sin caused Him in being separated from the Father. Oh the love that sought me, of the Love that bought me!
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Post by Happy Feet on Mar 27, 2012 15:02:20 GMT -5
SharonArnold, when people see Jesus as their older brother, and let God conform them to his image, then it makes a huge difference in their lives. JO, I though you had been arguing that Jesus was just a man - not God. Things like the following suggests to me that you see Jesus as just a man. You said, "we need to see Jesus as our older brother and let God conform us to his image". Again, "we need to see Jesus as our older brother and let God" (the Father) "conform us to his image" (Maybe you are meaning Jesus image - but I read it you are saying the Father's image. You seem to empathize his humanness and question his glory - God nature. This debate has been about the glory of God through Jesus (trinity) verses Jesus is a man (non trinity).
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Post by JO on Mar 27, 2012 15:24:39 GMT -5
HF, we don't need your man-made trinity to appreciate the glory of God through Jesus.
The Father wants to conform us to the image of his son Jesus Christ, who is the express image of his father.
Without the man-made trinity theory Jesus is "just a man"?
No way!
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Post by sharonw on Mar 27, 2012 18:09:19 GMT -5
I have to wonder how exes can claim "Jesus was just a man" to them while in the fellowship. Hymn 20 is sung regularly: From heaven's glory, From His radiant throne above, Came our Redeemer In His wondrous love,
How can we grieve Him- Jesus, blessed Son of God -
Come to the Saviour, With thy weary load of care;
Saviour, my Saviour, Thou hast died to make me free;The next hymn, 21: If we but knew! O Jesus, Lord of all, Before whom angels bow and nations fall,Does that seem like "just a man" But JO, in your quote you've quoted in the first verse...our Redeemer came from Heaven's glory, His throne.... AND YOU don't believe Jesus is God? That's what that first verse is indicating...that God came down leaving His glory on high and took on flesh and died for all of mankind. Why do you not understand that from that first verse? The second hymn you've quoted as saying If we but knew! O Jesus, Lord of all, Before whom angels bow and nations fall, Why is it that no one can understand the "Lord of all"? Is it not the place of God to be "Lord of all?"
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Post by JO on Mar 27, 2012 18:31:47 GMT -5
Sharon, I quoted that hymn because you keep saying that 2x2s believe Jesus was "just a man".
I've never thought Jesus was "just a man".
I've never come across a friend or worker who believes Jesus was "just a man".
It must only be exes who believed Jesus was "just a man", because they're the only ones who I've heard that concept from.
Believing in Jesus as "Lord of all" doesn't make the man-made trinity right. Its a pagan belief merged with Christianity for political reasons.
I believe in Jesus the son of God, not God the Son.
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Post by StAnne on Mar 27, 2012 18:33:59 GMT -5
Sharon, I quoted that hymn because you keep saying that 2x2s believe Jesus was "just a man". I've never thought Jesus was "just a man". I've never come across a friend or workers who believes Jesus was "just a man". It must only be exes who believe Jesus was "just a man", because they're the only ones who I've heard that concept from. Believing in Jesus as "Lord of all" doesn't make the man-made trinity right. Its a pagan belief merged with Christianity for political reasons. I believe in Jesus the son of God, not God the Son. There is only one Lord. Not a Lord and a quasi-Lord Not a Divine Lord God and a partially or quasi-divine Lord. ONE Lord.
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Post by JO on Mar 27, 2012 21:02:57 GMT -5
The Greek and Hebrew "Lord" is not always translated "God".
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Post by StAnne on Mar 27, 2012 21:16:50 GMT -5
The Greek and Hebrew "Lord" is not always translated "God". Of course they aren't. 1). They are two separate words. 2). There are other meanings for lord. Let's do a little test. To whom is Mary referring ... Lk 1:25 "The Lord has done this for me," she said. "In these days he has shown his favor and taken away my disgrace among the people."
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Post by sharonw on Mar 27, 2012 21:49:04 GMT -5
Sharon, I quoted that hymn because you keep saying that 2x2s believe Jesus was "just a man". I've never thought Jesus was "just a man". I've never come across a friend or worker who believes Jesus was "just a man". It must only be exes who believed Jesus was "just a man", because they're the only ones who I've heard that concept from. Believing in Jesus as "Lord of all" doesn't make the man-made trinity right. Its a pagan belief merged with Christianity for political reasons. I believe in Jesus the son of God, not God the Son. Well, pagan beliefs are scattered all through religions of today...but maybe pagan beliefs were just what religious beliefs meant back in those days....there is no new thing under the sun. I think Rat and others have proven that many things that are of Christian belief ARE of Pagan origins. BTW, IF you believe Jesus is God's Son, just what do you believe He is?
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Post by sharonw on Mar 27, 2012 21:51:47 GMT -5
HF, we don't need your man-made trinity to appreciate the glory of God through Jesus. The Father wants to conform us to the image of his son Jesus Christ, who is the express image of his father.Without the man-made trinity theory Jesus is "just a man"? No way! The bolded above...what are you meaning when you say Jesus is the express image of His Father? Would that not be like an heir on earth who is the image of his father? OR would that mean when it says "express image" that that is indicative that there is MORE to Jesus then just being like a human heir?
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Post by sharonw on Mar 27, 2012 21:53:50 GMT -5
SharonArnold, when people see Jesus as their older brother, and let God conform them to his image, then it makes a huge difference in their lives. JO, I though you had been arguing that Jesus was just a man - not God. Things like the following suggests to me that you see Jesus as just a man. You said, "we need to see Jesus as our older brother and let God conform us to his image". Again, "we need to see Jesus as our older brother and let God" (the Father) "conform us to his image" (Maybe you are meaning Jesus image - but I read it you are saying the Father's image. You seem to empathize his humanness and question his glory - God nature. This debate has been about the glory of God through Jesus (trinity) verses Jesus is a man (non trinity). I think that this 2x2 leaning on the "elder brother" is what causes people to feel that the workers/friends do not "typically" see Jesus other then an "elder brother" and thus would only be speaking to his humanity.
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Post by Happy Feet on Mar 27, 2012 22:00:35 GMT -5
I have to wonder how exes can claim "Jesus was just a man" to them while in the fellowship. The next hymn, 21: If we but knew! O Jesus, Lord of all, Before whom angels bow and nations fall,Does that seem like "just a man" Angels and nations worshiping Jesus? Do you believe that only God is to be worshiped? If you don't believe Jesus is God surely it is wrong to worship him.
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Post by JO on Mar 27, 2012 22:23:06 GMT -5
IF you believe Jesus is God's Son, just what do you believe He is? God's Son.
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Post by JO on Mar 27, 2012 22:24:40 GMT -5
I have to wonder how exes can claim "Jesus was just a man" to them while in the fellowship. The next hymn, 21: If we but knew! O Jesus, Lord of all, Before whom angels bow and nations fall,Does that seem like "just a man" Angels and nations worshiping Jesus? Do you believe that only God is to be worshiped? If you don't believe Jesus is God surely it is wrong to worship him. God hasn't told me yet that I'm forbidden to worship his Son.
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Post by Happy Feet on Mar 27, 2012 23:55:45 GMT -5
Angels and nations worshiping Jesus? Do you believe that only God is to be worshiped? If you don't believe Jesus is God surely it is wrong to worship him. God hasn't told me yet that I'm forbidden to worship his Son. But you do not believe that His Son is God - I understand that only God is to be worshiped? How do you expect him to tell you? In His word - Read the Bible and I am sure you will find that only God is to be worshiped.
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Post by JO on Mar 28, 2012 4:59:18 GMT -5
HF, I think its ridiculous to suggest God would have an issue with me worshipping the Son of God.
I doubt there was a man-made three-person-god theory when the disciples worshipped the Son of God.
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Matthew 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
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