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Post by sacerdotal on Mar 17, 2012 9:52:08 GMT -5
As professing people, why can't we speak the truth on this board about our doctrine? I was just attacked by someone on another thread, he was accusing me of being dishonest, simply because I posted what I hear in Gospel Meetings. And as God is my witness, I represented it accurately and faithfully and to what I believe, heard, and witness to others searching for God's true way on the earth (although I struggle at times with my faith).
Are we that ashamed of our doctrine that we can speak it in private, but not in public? Must we constantly be Peter and be denying our Lord because we are so ashamed of what is surely believed and lived among us?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2012 9:57:59 GMT -5
You will need to be specific. I can't think of anything mentioned in meetings which doesn't find its way onto the internet.
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Post by sacerdotal on Mar 17, 2012 11:01:17 GMT -5
You will need to be specific. I can't think of anything mentioned in meetings which doesn't find its way onto the internet. I don't disagree that it makes its way on to the internet- which is good. What is bad is the denial of the doctrine when it does makes its way onto the internet. If it is good enough to say in meeting, then it is good enough to say on the internet- don't you think? Truth is truth either way.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2012 11:08:11 GMT -5
You will need to be specific. I can't think of anything mentioned in meetings which doesn't find its way onto the internet. I don't disagree that it makes its way on to the internet- which is good. What is bad is the denial of the doctrine when it does makes its way onto the internet. If it is good enough to say in meeting, then it is good enough to say on the internet- don't you think? Truth is truth either way. It's pretty simple. The hireling flees at the first sign of trouble. Whatever your truth is, you will find opposition when you speak it. When the hireling knows he can't withstand or answer the feedback, he is nowhere to be found.
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Post by sacerdotal on Mar 17, 2012 11:17:05 GMT -5
I don't disagree that it makes its way on to the internet- which is good. What is bad is the denial of the doctrine when it does makes its way onto the internet. If it is good enough to say in meeting, then it is good enough to say on the internet- don't you think? Truth is truth either way. It's pretty simple. The hireling flees at the first sign of trouble. Whatever your truth is, you will find opposition when you speak it. When the hireling knows he can't withstand or answer the feedback, he is nowhere to be found. The workers tell us that the bible warns us about this- we are not to cast our pearls before swine. Are professing people simply fools for casting these precious pearls of truth before the swine? A swine doesn't recognize the value like we do. I don't like to think of non-professing people as swine- but that is what we are told to expect if we try and share our truths with those that don't want to learn. None are so blind as those that simply won't open their eyes to the truth. One of the overseers compares this to sunlight traveling thousands of miles to gently wake us in the morning- but we pull the blind down to block that light out- it is that simple for us to deny the truth of God as He tries to reveal it to us in gospel meetings. I'm thankful that God has shown us the value of his pearls of truth in Jesus and that I am a sheep and not a swine.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2012 11:57:03 GMT -5
It's pretty simple. The hireling flees at the first sign of trouble. Whatever your truth is, you will find opposition when you speak it. When the hireling knows he can't withstand or answer the feedback, he is nowhere to be found. The workers tell us that the bible warns us about this- we are not to cast our pearls before swine. Are professing people simply fools for casting these precious pearls of truth before the swine? A swine doesn't recognize the value like we do. I don't like to think of non-professing people as swine- but that is what we are told to expect if we try and share our truths with those that don't want to learn. None are so blind as those that simply won't open their eyes to the truth. One of the overseers compares this to sunlight traveling thousands of miles to gently wake us in the morning- but we pull the blind down to block that light out- it is that simple for us to deny the truth of God as He tries to reveal it to us in gospel meetings. I'm thankful that God has shown us the value of his pearls of truth in Jesus and that I am a sheep and not a swine. There are always excuses for avoiding the calling to go out into all the world and make disciples of Jesus. That is supposed to be the calling of workers. It is common to hide behind the casting pearls to swine idea, when the bible also instructs to "cast your bread upon the waters". "I'm thankful that God has shown us the value of his pearls of truth in Jesus and that I am a sheep and not a swine." sounds a lot like: "The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector." I am sure that Pharisee was thanking God he wasn't a swine too. Hopefully you aren't intending to say that are you? There was a worker, a good fellow by all appearances, who had a blog in which he expressed his faith well. One day, the blog disappeared, apparently due to inside opposition. What was the cause of the opposition? We're not sure but perhaps there was an expectation that his readers were sure to include some swine? Given the fact that Jesus did not exclude any in his audience when he preached to thousands in open air settings, it would be fair to say that his preaching style was the equivalent of the modern day internet. He broadcast his words in the widest possible way, regardless of the presence of "swine" or not. Frankly, I have long wondered the same thing with regard to the underground nature of our workers. Why won't they come out and speak the words of life openly and freely? I think there are several barriers which prevent this: 1.It is not traditional and believed to be unbiblical to preach through any other means than in person. 2.Workers, being sheeplike, want to be like other workers in unity so no one will openly be different....even if different is good or right. 3.Casting pearls before swine is a common reason. 4.Lack of confidence in their subject matter.
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Post by sacerdotal on Mar 17, 2012 11:59:24 GMT -5
The workers tell us that the bible warns us about this- we are not to cast our pearls before swine. Are professing people simply fools for casting these precious pearls of truth before the swine? A swine doesn't recognize the value like we do. I don't like to think of non-professing people as swine- but that is what we are told to expect if we try and share our truths with those that don't want to learn. None are so blind as those that simply won't open their eyes to the truth. One of the overseers compares this to sunlight traveling thousands of miles to gently wake us in the morning- but we pull the blind down to block that light out- it is that simple for us to deny the truth of God as He tries to reveal it to us in gospel meetings. I'm thankful that God has shown us the value of his pearls of truth in Jesus and that I am a sheep and not a swine. There are always excuses for avoiding the calling to go out into all the world and make disciples of Jesus. That is supposed to be the calling of workers. It is common to hide behind the casting pearls to swine idea, when the bible also instructs to "cast your bread upon the waters". "I'm thankful that God has shown us the value of his pearls of truth in Jesus and that I am a sheep and not a swine." sounds a lot like: "The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector." I am sure that Pharisee was thanking God he wasn't a swine too. Hopefully you aren't intending to say that are you? There was a worker, a good fellow by all appearances, who had a blog in which he expressed his faith well. One day, the blog disappeared, apparently due to inside opposition. What was the cause of the opposition? We're not sure but perhaps there was an expectation that his readers were sure to include some swine? Given the fact that Jesus did not exclude any in his audience when he preached to thousands in open air settings, it would be fair to say that his preaching style was the equivalent of the modern day internet. He broadcast his words in the widest possible way, regardless of the presence of "swine" or not. Frankly, I have long wondered the same thing with regard to the underground nature of our workers. Why won't they come out and speak the words of life openly and freely? I think there are several barriers which prevent this: 1.It is not traditional and believed to be unbiblical to preach through any other means than in person. 2.Workers, being sheeplike, want to be like other workers in unity so no one will openly be different....even if different is good or right. 3.Casting pearls before swine is a common reason. 4.Lack of confidence in their subject matter. But it was an instruction of Jesus. Why did he say it?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2012 12:31:06 GMT -5
There are always excuses for avoiding the calling to go out into all the world and make disciples of Jesus. That is supposed to be the calling of workers. It is common to hide behind the casting pearls to swine idea, when the bible also instructs to "cast your bread upon the waters". "I'm thankful that God has shown us the value of his pearls of truth in Jesus and that I am a sheep and not a swine." sounds a lot like: "The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector." I am sure that Pharisee was thanking God he wasn't a swine too. Hopefully you aren't intending to say that are you? There was a worker, a good fellow by all appearances, who had a blog in which he expressed his faith well. One day, the blog disappeared, apparently due to inside opposition. What was the cause of the opposition? We're not sure but perhaps there was an expectation that his readers were sure to include some swine? Given the fact that Jesus did not exclude any in his audience when he preached to thousands in open air settings, it would be fair to say that his preaching style was the equivalent of the modern day internet. He broadcast his words in the widest possible way, regardless of the presence of "swine" or not. Frankly, I have long wondered the same thing with regard to the underground nature of our workers. Why won't they come out and speak the words of life openly and freely? I think there are several barriers which prevent this: 1.It is not traditional and believed to be unbiblical to preach through any other means than in person. 2.Workers, being sheeplike, want to be like other workers in unity so no one will openly be different....even if different is good or right. 3.Casting pearls before swine is a common reason. 4.Lack of confidence in their subject matter. But it was an instruction of Jesus. Why did he say it? It's not complicated. Swine don't eat pearls and pearls are no value to them in the pig pen. Here is the meaning: Preach the living word to all. When you realize your preaching is rejected or not useful to someone, don't persist, you're wasting your time and effort. There are others who will find pearl-like value in your words.
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Post by Sylvestra on Mar 17, 2012 12:47:58 GMT -5
.....and to add......be careful who you call swine if you want open discussion about anything!!
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Post by SharonArnold on Mar 17, 2012 13:08:08 GMT -5
When I first saw the title of this thread, I (quite unhelpfully) thought “Unadulterated 2X2 doctrine” – hmmm - Is this not an oxymoron?
I have recently discovered the writings/teachings of some Catholic mystics (Anthony de Mello, Richard Rohr, for examples), and as a former (quite invested) 2X2, they have been eye-openers for me.
Richard Rohr addresses the “What it means to be a mystic” this way: “Now do not let the word ‘mystic’ scare you off. It simply means one who has moved from mere belief systems or belonging systems to actual inner experience. All spiritual traditions agree that such a movement is possible, desirable, and available to everyone. In fact Jesus seems to say this is the whole point! (See, for example, John 10:19-38.)”
I have come to believe, that through pretty much every belief system, through every time, - there runs a thread. Some have labeled it “mystical”. Mostly it remains unlabeled and unacknowledged and even unrecognized. I found it within 2X2ism. I did not lose it when I left 2X2ism.
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Post by What Hat on Mar 17, 2012 13:31:39 GMT -5
When I first saw the title of this thread, I (quite unhelpfully) thought “Unadulterated 2X2 doctrine” – hmmm - Is this not an oxymoron? I have recently discovered the writings/teachings of some Catholic mystics (Anthony de Mello, Richard Rohr, for examples), and as a former (quite invested) 2X2, they have been eye-openers for me. Richard Rohr addresses the “What it means to be a mystic” this way: “Now do not let the word ‘mystic’ scare you off. It simply means one who has moved from mere belief systems or belonging systems to actual inner experience. All spiritual traditions agree that such a movement is possible, desirable, and available to everyone. In fact Jesus seems to say this is the whole point! (See, for example, John 10:19-38.)” I have come to believe, that through pretty much every belief system, through every time, - there runs a thread. Some have labeled it “mystical”. Mostly it remains unlabeled and unacknowledged and even unrecognized. I found it within 2X2ism. I did not lose it when I left 2X2ism. You might enjoy The Varieties of Religious Experience by William James. Actually, I've never read it all myself, but it comes up a lot in discussions like this. James believed that religion was more a matter of experience (through ritual, prayer, etc.) than a matter of faith, knowledge and doctrine.
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Post by SharonArnold on Mar 17, 2012 13:41:40 GMT -5
It's on my kindle! ($2.51) Gotta love that! Thanks!
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Post by lazarus66 on Mar 17, 2012 13:47:21 GMT -5
I am not being unkind here, just honest.
The reason the 2x2 doctrine can no not be discussed in an unadulterated fashion is simple.
I am 63 years old and went to meeting off and on for 50+ years, and aside from the issues of outward appearance, and how to conduct ones self, the rest changes from day to day.
I am not saying this to be difficult, but it is the truth. I can have seen letters from workers in which they lied, misrepresented themselves, and never stuck on one point, other than being "the only way" and "God's true servants".
Those are two points that are hard to hold up, and the workers do not want anything in print as they are held to it.
Ask the workers to write out their doctrine and see what happens.
NOW, there have been some wonderful things spoken in meetings and they should be shared, but when you add that they are for "professing people only" and keep the "only way" mentality, you are judging people and that is not your place or anyone else's including the heartiest of workers. Turn this around for a second to see my point. You don't like it when people say negative things against the "truth". If offends you because of your belief. You may be a very honest and sincere Christian, and that is between you and God. When you "infer" that others are not saved because they don't practice the outward things that "professing" people do, then, you are slamming their faith. Professing simply means that you are making a profession of having Christ in your life. It is not an exclusive term for those in the "truth fellowship". They have taken it to mean "walking in our way" but I will tell you straight up, that is judgmental and wrong.
If you want to share a thought, share it. You don't have to say where it came from. Just don't throw in that exclusivity attitude that it is only for a certain group. Be like Jesus. Put it out there, and leave it at that.
I have seen too much change in my 50+ years to see any "unadulterated 2x2 doctrine". It simply doesn't exist. Jesus even said "this is not my doctrine", didn't he?
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Post by What Hat on Mar 17, 2012 14:11:24 GMT -5
It's on my kindle! ($2.51) Gotta love that! Thanks! Kindle's are great aren't they? I have a ton of public domain religious stuff, some of which I've even read.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Mar 17, 2012 15:01:57 GMT -5
It's not complicated. Swine don't eat pearls and pearls are no value to them in the pig pen. Here is the meaning: Preach the living word to all. When you realize your preaching is rejected or not useful to someone, don't persist, you're wasting your time and effort. There are others who will find pearl-like value in your words. I appreciate the distinction you make here, CD. I have often realized that certain individuals are not going to receive what I say, and so I quietly refrain from saying much around them. I see this as entirely different from marking an entire group of people as swine, refusing to speak with them, and perhaps publicly defining them as swine. It is wise to be careful in our words, in any way you look at it . . .
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Mar 17, 2012 15:02:41 GMT -5
.....and to add......be careful who you call swine if you want open discussion about anything!! Good idea!
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Mar 17, 2012 15:17:04 GMT -5
I have recently discovered the writings/teachings of some Catholic mystics (Anthony de Mello, Richard Rohr, for examples), and as a former (quite invested) 2X2, they have been eye-openers for me. Richard Rohr addresses the “What it means to be a mystic” this way: “Now do not let the word ‘mystic’ scare you off. It simply means one who has moved from mere belief systems or belonging systems to actual inner experience. All spiritual traditions agree that such a movement is possible, desirable, and available to everyone. In fact Jesus seems to say this is the whole point! (See, for example, John 10:19-38.)” I have come to believe, that through pretty much every belief system, through every time, - there runs a thread. Some have labeled it “mystical”. Mostly it remains unlabeled and unacknowledged and even unrecognized. I found it within 2X2ism. I did not lose it when I left 2X2ism. Two of my favorites! Jayne and I are currently involved in a reading/discussion group on DeMello's Awareness. Thomas Merton is another favorite. I agree that these things coincide with Jesus' teachings, and also that I began to experience this within the 2x2 fellowship.
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Post by sacerdotal on Mar 17, 2012 15:45:45 GMT -5
It's not complicated. Swine don't eat pearls and pearls are no value to them in the pig pen. Here is the meaning: Preach the living word to all. When you realize your preaching is rejected or not useful to someone, don't persist, you're wasting your time and effort. There are others who will find pearl-like value in your words. I appreciate the distinction you make here, CD. I have often realized that certain individuals are not going to receive what I say, and so I quietly refrain from saying much around them. I see this as entirely different from marking an entire group of people as swine, refusing to speak with them, and perhaps publicly defining them as swine. It is wise to be careful in our words, in any way you look at it . . . Jesus should have been more careful with his choice of words? "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." He was definitely referring to SOMEONE as being dogs and swine.
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Post by emy on Mar 17, 2012 15:58:02 GMT -5
Clearly speculation. Didn't you ever get around to asking him?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2012 16:48:17 GMT -5
Clearly speculation. Didn't you ever get around to asking him? Yes, clearly and purely speculation. At least the swine part is speculation. Was it my job to ask him? Do you have an email address for him? I will send off a note right away.
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Post by Scott Ross on Mar 17, 2012 17:02:03 GMT -5
Clearly speculation. Didn't you ever get around to asking him? I asked in one of my emails with him. Hi Scott,It seems that several aren't comfortable with the blog means of communication, so the reason for deleting it. Maybe in time that will change.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2012 17:12:03 GMT -5
Clearly speculation. Didn't you ever get around to asking him? I asked in one of my emails with him. Hi Scott,It seems that several aren't comfortable with the blog means of communication, so the reason for deleting it. Maybe in time that will change.
Thanks. Saved me an email. It does make one wonder why others would be uncomfortable with the way he communicates with people.......or why he would concern himself with other people being uncomfortable with something that is not any of their business and doesn't affect them in any way. It's pretty odd.
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Post by Scott Ross on Mar 17, 2012 17:22:02 GMT -5
I asked in one of my emails with him. Hi Scott,It seems that several aren't comfortable with the blog means of communication, so the reason for deleting it. Maybe in time that will change.
Thanks. Saved me an email. It does make one wonder why others would be uncomfortable with the way he communicates with people.......or why he would concern himself with other people being uncomfortable with something that is not any of their business and doesn't affect them in any way. It's pretty odd. What I find interesting is that there are a lot of workers that have blogs, but they don't discuss church/scripture other than passing references it seems. But when a worker starts posting about the ministry and such 'people' get uncomfortable. Weird isn't it? Gotta hide that light so it don't shine.........
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Post by Done4now on Mar 17, 2012 18:25:13 GMT -5
Clearly speculation. Didn't you ever get around to asking him? I asked in one of my emails with him. Hi Scott,It seems that several aren't comfortable with the blog means of communication, so the reason for deleting it. Maybe in time that will change.
thanks for sharing. this is quite sad, but unfortunately quite true. I remember people on here were in quite a tizzy over the site (both innies and outies) and there were also quite a few who were pleased to see it (both innies and outies).
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Post by platteriver on Mar 17, 2012 18:27:52 GMT -5
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Post by Happy Feet on Mar 17, 2012 20:33:23 GMT -5
Clearly speculation. Didn't you ever get around to asking him? I asked in one of my emails with him. Hi Scott,It seems that several aren't comfortable with the blog means of communication, so the reason for deleting it. Maybe in time that will change.
Is this the same reason that our 'in house' worker noels, no longer writes on this board? And secondly, Jesus spoke all things openly, he hid nothing. If it can't be said openly, then it should not be said at all. I feel it is the workers lack of confidence in what they preach and believe that causes them to hide them. Imagine if the apostles hid what they said and did, there would be no Bible.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Mar 17, 2012 20:36:46 GMT -5
What I find interesting is that there are a lot of workers that have blogs, but they don't discuss church/scripture other than passing references it seems. But when a worker starts posting about the ministry and such 'people' get uncomfortable. Weird isn't it? Gotta hide that light so it don't shine......... It is a bit bizarre. Lots of worker facebook pages that are totally secular, never a word about God.
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Post by DumSpiroSpero on Mar 17, 2012 23:01:55 GMT -5
What I find interesting is that there are a lot of workers that have blogs, but they don't discuss church/scripture other than passing references it seems. But when a worker starts posting about the ministry and such 'people' get uncomfortable. Weird isn't it? Gotta hide that light so it don't shine......... It is a bit bizarre. Lots of worker facebook pages that are totally secular, never a word about God. And yet I have a number of fb friends ('worldy' christians) who are happy to shout from the rooftops of what God has done for them and how thankful they are - sharing the love! And the majority of their fb updates are of this nature...
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