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Post by burdenofproof on Mar 17, 2012 23:11:10 GMT -5
What I find interesting is that there are a lot of workers that have blogs, but they don't discuss church/scripture other than passing references it seems. But when a worker starts posting about the ministry and such 'people' get uncomfortable. Weird isn't it? Gotta hide that light so it don't shine......... It is a bit bizarre. Lots of worker facebook pages that are totally secular, never a word about God. Well, you know...no one wants to be labeled as "overzealous" or anything like that! That's just not "cool". People will start treating you like you are some sort of Jesus Freak or something....fwiw-bop
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Post by lazarus66 on Mar 17, 2012 23:12:38 GMT -5
sacerdotal, if you are going in that direction of Jesus calling people dogs and swine, you are opening a can of worms. He spoke of many things that were "laws" of His time. He spoke to the woman at the well, and we know she was no saint. He spoke harshly with the Pharisees, and healed and touched the lepers and blind and lame. Perhaps he was making a point.
I would be willing to bet that if you posted something positive on here from a meeting, and didn't divulge it's source, and made it a general thought for all to enjoy that follow Jesus and are Christians, you will be surprised at the responses. I bet all believers will not buffet you at all but make positive comments.
BTW, You have not made any postings on here that are sources of doctrine, or scriptures that are helpful to all. You seem only concerned about the reputation of the 2x2 way. This is not an attack, just an honest question............................Laz
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2012 23:22:08 GMT -5
It is a bit bizarre. Lots of worker facebook pages that are totally secular, never a word about God. Well, you know...no one wants to be labeled as "overzealous" or anything like that! That's just not "cool". People will start treating you like you are some sort of Jesus Freak or something....fwiw-bop . .. this is all about security vs. insecurity ... . .. when a person is secure about something, they also have a confidence about them which stimulates them to just DO what they are inspired to do - regardless . .. you KNOW when you feel secure about something .. you also know when you feel INsecure about something; although i think there is more DENIAL that goes on when a person is INSECURE vs. secure .. "What, who me, I not insecure!" (as if being insecure is the worst sin possible) but, being insecure about some things is only natural - there is no human being that is totally secure about everything in life .. if we were totally always secure about everything, then we wouldn't really NEED other people; we wouldn't need any reassurance, and we certainly wouldn't need any kind of god to search for and wonder about and worship .. it's our INSECURITY that raises many of our NEEDS . . . .. ... .. . and well, if we don't need anything at all, then we are not being very real or very human . but the fact is, that if we are real and if we are human and if we are honest, we will admit that we have needs and we have insecurities that seek to meet with that which makes us FEEL more secure . .. but FEELING secure should not be confused with BEING secure . speaking for myself and yes, also speaking for others, there is a FALSE sense of security that can be misleading .. and we may THINK we ARE secure, when in reality the bottom that is holding it all up is not secure at all and could crumble at any moment with the least amount of trembling .. and shaking and quaking . things that are TRULY secure hold up under pressure and during times of distress, stress, shake-ups and shake-downs . sure, I really do FEEL more secure when life is going well and there are not too many things giving me stress and grief, but can I say that I feel secure when in the face of feeling a threat or in the face of things/stressful events that are rather unsettling? hmmm. i'll have to think about this.............................................................
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2012 23:28:37 GMT -5
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Post by lazarus66 on Mar 17, 2012 23:31:44 GMT -5
I agree with you Psycichic, and also it is quite a burden to carry to be the only one that really knows God's way, and God's real plan, within that way. That is where the mind control/brainwashing falls into place along with insecurity. When I was in I knew I was right, until I found out I was right, but in the wrong place and wrong way. I would quote scripture, talk about Godly things with my "friends" and they would be shocked and have no answers because I approached subjects they avoided but were real and necessary. I got to the point to where I could no longer justify what was going on, and so I left. After nearly two years, I realized I had been brainwashed/mind controlled. That is rather unsettling too.......................Laz
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Post by JO on Mar 17, 2012 23:33:34 GMT -5
I am not saying this to be difficult, but it is the truth. I can have seen letters from workers in which they lied, misrepresented themselves, and never stuck on one point, other than being "the only way" and "God's true servants". Those are two points that are hard to hold up, and the workers do not want anything in print as they are held to it. Ask the workers to write out their doctrine and see what happens. NOW, there have been some wonderful things spoken in meetings and they should be shared... You've put your finger on it: 1. This is the only way. 2. We are God's true servants. Workers promote this doctrine amongst the friends but will only allude to it in a round about way to outsiders. I think this is tragic because the fellowship would otherwise have much to offer.
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Post by JO on Mar 17, 2012 23:38:48 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2012 23:43:47 GMT -5
Wha..... worked for me!!!!! Does anyone else have this problem?
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Post by lazarus66 on Mar 17, 2012 23:48:56 GMT -5
Bert, you need some more amending on your site. Just one point, and I will leave you to find the others. Jesus held the first "meeting with Gentiles" when he met with the Samaritan woman at the well. He went to where they lived. Still doesn't make your point. Although the Samaritans were of some Jewish linage, they were considered non-Jews, thus Gentiles.
""These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house ..."
Sorry man..................Laz
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2012 23:54:29 GMT -5
Thanks for the input. But I see a distinction between Jesus meeting with the Samaritans and His service before the Crucifixion. One was preaching the Gospel, the other a true service. Had it been the other way around the scripture would have detailed the Samaritan gathering very carefully. And yes, in the beginning Jesus did go to only the Jews. And then He sent them into all the world.
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Post by JO on Mar 17, 2012 23:57:41 GMT -5
How about the following for unadulterated 2x2 doctrine:
========================================
Some Marks of the Elect Children of God
They are sincere in a world of “put-on.”
They walk with open face, are transparent: having nothing to hide.
They have nothing to fear and speak from the heart.
There is no guile in them—being pure in heart and mind, they don’t understand deceit, suspicion, or evil in others.
They are loyal and never betray a friend nor take advantage of an enemy!
They may suffer at the hands of others but do not return evil for evil.
Sorrow comes to them (it does to all) but they come forth from it as pure as gold.
Suffering does not make them bitter, but sweetens their spirit and teaches them lessons of pity and sympathy.
They are generous and what they do is done from a pure motive.
What to many would be duty, would to them be an opportunity to show Christ’s spirit.
They would be kind even if all the world were cruel.
Because there is no vanity in them, they are not “puffed-up” by praise: they are humble in heart but do not know it, and of course, do not speak of it.
They are meek, but not the meekness of fear which is slavish.
They don’t boast of what they are, for they know God is to be thanked for any good that is in them, and they do not feel they are superior to others (although in a way they are so). This goodness is an unconsciousness of itself, and therefore pure.
They are gentle toward all men, knowing the weakness of flesh, they are compassionate.
When others look for faults in their friends, they look for virtues, and when they err from justice, they lean toward mercy.
Their hearts beat at the world’s needs and thus are kept soft and in tune.
They are cheerful, thus their presence dispels gloom from troubled hearts as the rising sun does morning clouds.
No matter how heavy their own hearts are, they will smile and speak words of cheer.
They have learned that misery is diminished when shared by sympathy.
They help to carry the burden of others, but never expect or ask theirs to be carried.
They have themselves under control—their good temper is not dependent on good company, but at all times, under all circumstances, sail on an even keel. They are calm and serene in the midst of storms, and because peace rules in their hearts…fear is far from them.
They draw troubled souls to them, and comfort all who mourn.
Their hearts are large enough to “mother” an orphan world.
To know them is to be made strong in spirit.
They are brave in times of stress and worry.
Outward things only seem to perfect them.
When others lose head and heart, they are bolder than at other times.
They are dependable, they have a true deep FAITH IN GOD, and take all that comes.
When others complain, they give thanks.
Whatever their lot, they make the best of it and look at what comes to them as better than they deserve.
They are free from envy and rejoice in the good fortune of others as if it were their own.
They do not strive, but let their adversary have both sides of the dispute.
In dark times they live in hope.
They are the light of the world, because they "are" the light of Jesus.
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Post by emy on Mar 17, 2012 23:58:17 GMT -5
Wha..... worked for me!!!!! Does anyone else have this problem? It can be copied and pasted. It's just not clickable in your post.
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Post by lazarus66 on Mar 18, 2012 0:00:08 GMT -5
Thank you for clearing that up, Bert, I have been losing sleep over it. NOT
I really feel for you, my friend. You will just keep on explaining, but never on your page did I notice the doctrine and the issues of hair, and clothes, TVs, Radios, dancing, and all the other no nos.
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Post by lazarus66 on Mar 18, 2012 0:00:56 GMT -5
Are you afraid of the truth about the "truth"?
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Post by Done4now on Mar 18, 2012 2:28:21 GMT -5
How about the following for unadulterated 2x2 doctrine: ======================================== Some Marks of the Elect Children of GodThey are sincere in a world of “put-on.” They walk with open face, are transparent: having nothing to hide. They have nothing to fear and speak from the heart. There is no guile in them—being pure in heart and mind, they don’t understand deceit, suspicion, or evil in others. They are loyal and never betray a friend nor take advantage of an enemy! They may suffer at the hands of others but do not return evil for evil. Sorrow comes to them (it does to all) but they come forth from it as pure as gold. Suffering does not make them bitter, but sweetens their spirit and teaches them lessons of pity and sympathy. They are generous and what they do is done from a pure motive. What to many would be duty, would to them be an opportunity to show Christ’s spirit. They would be kind even if all the world were cruel. Because there is no vanity in them, they are not “puffed-up” by praise: they are humble in heart but do not know it, and of course, do not speak of it. They are meek, but not the meekness of fear which is slavish. They don’t boast of what they are, for they know God is to be thanked for any good that is in them, and they do not feel they are superior to others (although in a way they are so). This goodness is an unconsciousness of itself, and therefore pure. They are gentle toward all men, knowing the weakness of flesh, they are compassionate. When others look for faults in their friends, they look for virtues, and when they err from justice, they lean toward mercy. Their hearts beat at the world’s needs and thus are kept soft and in tune. They are cheerful, thus their presence dispels gloom from troubled hearts as the rising sun does morning clouds. No matter how heavy their own hearts are, they will smile and speak words of cheer. They have learned that misery is diminished when shared by sympathy. They help to carry the burden of others, but never expect or ask theirs to be carried. They have themselves under control—their good temper is not dependent on good company, but at all times, under all circumstances, sail on an even keel. They are calm and serene in the midst of storms, and because peace rules in their hearts…fear is far from them. They draw troubled souls to them, and comfort all who mourn. Their hearts are large enough to “mother” an orphan world. To know them is to be made strong in spirit. They are brave in times of stress and worry. Outward things only seem to perfect them. When others lose head and heart, they are bolder than at other times. They are dependable, they have a true deep FAITH IN GOD, and take all that comes. When others complain, they give thanks. Whatever their lot, they make the best of it and look at what comes to them as better than they deserve. They are free from envy and rejoice in the good fortune of others as if it were their own. They do not strive, but let their adversary have both sides of the dispute. In dark times they live in hope. They are the light of the world, because they "are" the light of Jesus. this is quite lovely! I wish the professing people in my family were like this! Unfortunately, they are quite the opposite. There probably are a lot of people who THINK they are something like this though--because they have the public persona and the reputation part down pat.
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Post by JO on Mar 18, 2012 3:39:31 GMT -5
Ckirkham, I wish your family was like this, and I wish all friends and workers were like this. I wish all Christians were like this.
True Christianity IMO is about letting God conform us to the image of his son, yet so many Christians think its about a belief system.
We could trust in our belief system and be nothing like God's son.
=============================================
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
~ Mahatma Gandhi
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Post by lazarus66 on Mar 18, 2012 8:24:15 GMT -5
JO, why did you even post that. There is very little truth in most of it, and it is almost like a list of what to use for the Mind control program.
If you know friends like that, I need to go to that planet because it isn't here on this earth. (again, I am generalizing as I do know some like that, but not a majority)
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Post by CherieKropp on Mar 18, 2012 10:05:37 GMT -5
JO's list titled: "Some marks of the Elect Children of God"
are widely circulated notes by George Walker.
People frequently send me copies of this list.
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Post by lazarus66 on Mar 18, 2012 10:09:30 GMT -5
Cherie, thanks that "splains it". I thought someone had lost their mind and thought there was a shred of truth to that list............
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Post by lazarus66 on Mar 18, 2012 10:11:19 GMT -5
And in the case of JF, of Michigan, when all else fails keep looking for a better lawyer/Barrister.
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Post by sacerdotal on Mar 18, 2012 10:40:40 GMT -5
Interesting site, Bert. But, to be honest, it doesn't appear to be about the friends and workers except in an enigmatic kind of way. I could only find the word "workers" mentioned in either the URL or title to other pages or in the keywords you added at the bottom of the page to direct people to your site. I couldn't find any current (or past) worker names or quotes. It seems, to me, that the site is mainly arguing against church buildings- which is good- I am against church buildings too (even convention buildings- an almost total waste of money and an albatross around our fellowship's neck- one ground just recently built new dorms with air conditioning. The overseer let it be known that a few hundred thousand dollars were going into the upgrades- but that was OK because the money was given by one of the friends.) Why not add a worker section where workers can take and answer questions about our fellowship? I think that that would be really helpful to all in clearing up a lot of misunderstandings and perhaps could be a help to direct lost souls to God's true servants. I think that it is also nice that you include a link to Cherie's website and Clay Randall's scathing critique of your site. You are obviously trying to be open and transparent.
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Post by sharonw on Mar 18, 2012 11:52:18 GMT -5
I appreciate the distinction you make here, CD. I have often realized that certain individuals are not going to receive what I say, and so I quietly refrain from saying much around them. I see this as entirely different from marking an entire group of people as swine, refusing to speak with them, and perhaps publicly defining them as swine. It is wise to be careful in our words, in any way you look at it . . . Jesus should have been more careful with his choice of words? "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." He was definitely referring to SOMEONE as being dogs and swine. Aww but Paul made a point that "dogs" can certainly be of the church, now didn't he? Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Gal 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. One bible I have talks about dogs being those who are always ready to devour others! Not bearing love one for another!
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Post by sharonw on Mar 18, 2012 11:59:19 GMT -5
I appreciate the distinction you make here, CD. I have often realized that certain individuals are not going to receive what I say, and so I quietly refrain from saying much around them. I see this as entirely different from marking an entire group of people as swine, refusing to speak with them, and perhaps publicly defining them as swine. It is wise to be careful in our words, in any way you look at it . . . Jesus should have been more careful with his choice of words? "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." He was definitely referring to SOMEONE as being dogs and swine. Also it helps to put things into context when Jesus speaks....let's consider the time Jesus sent the Legend of demons into the swine that were grazing on a mountain nearby.....the demon had asked that Jesus not send them into the deep water because the demons knew that they would drown. However they thought if they could just enter into those swine then they'd be doing just fine...some pig keepers there would make sure they were well fed. But they got a surprise...they ended up in the deep water anyway by their own choice! Now let's step back to that day and age Jesus is in, ok? Swine were an illegal commodity to the Jews, but in Jesus' day there were those who were over the Jews in that country and they were the Gentiles who often consumed the pig flesh....so there were some who were keeping swine herds to make money by selling them to the Gentiles who were over the Jews. But the thing was Jesus seems to be saying was not to give one's treasures to that which is illegal or unlawful....JMO!
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Post by sharonw on Mar 18, 2012 12:01:28 GMT -5
I asked in one of my emails with him. Hi Scott,It seems that several aren't comfortable with the blog means of communication, so the reason for deleting it. Maybe in time that will change.
thanks for sharing. this is quite sad, but unfortunately quite true. I remember people on here were in quite a tizzy over the site (both innies and outies) and there were also quite a few who were pleased to see it (both innies and outies). I agree. I liked his blog very much...found it contained some real truths...he wasn't pushing the "ministry" in it or I didn't read that in it.
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Post by kencoolidge on Mar 18, 2012 12:02:41 GMT -5
Bert No web site, no list, no BS. Just Jesus nothing more nothing less. Paul had no confidence in himself but that he did know Jesus and that was all that was important. How about you Bert Whats important to you. Ken
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Post by sharonw on Mar 18, 2012 12:06:45 GMT -5
Well, you know...no one wants to be labeled as "overzealous" or anything like that! That's just not "cool". People will start treating you like you are some sort of Jesus Freak or something....fwiw-bop . .. this is all about security vs. insecurity ... . .. when a person is secure about something, they also have a confidence about them which stimulates them to just DO what they are inspired to do - regardless . .. you KNOW when you feel secure about something .. you also know when you feel INsecure about something; although i think there is more DENIAL that goes on when a person is INSECURE vs. secure .. "What, who me, I not insecure!" (as if being insecure is the worst sin possible) but, being insecure about some things is only natural - there is no human being that is totally secure about everything in life .. if we were totally always secure about everything, then we wouldn't really NEED other people; we wouldn't need any reassurance, and we certainly wouldn't need any kind of god to search for and wonder about and worship .. it's our INSECURITY that raises many of our NEEDS . . . .. ... .. . and well, if we don't need anything at all, then we are not being very real or very human . but the fact is, that if we are real and if we are human and if we are honest, we will admit that we have needs and we have insecurities that seek to meet with that which makes us FEEL more secure . .. but FEELING secure should not be confused with BEING secure . speaking for myself and yes, also speaking for others, there is a FALSE sense of security that can be misleading .. and we may THINK we ARE secure, when in reality the bottom that is holding it all up is not secure at all and could crumble at any moment with the least amount of trembling .. and shaking and quaking . things that are TRULY secure hold up under pressure and during times of distress, stress, shake-ups and shake-downs . sure, I really do FEEL more secure when life is going well and there are not too many things giving me stress and grief, but can I say that I feel secure when in the face of feeling a threat or in the face of things/stressful events that are rather unsettling? hmmm. i'll have to think about this............................................................. I don't think it is insecurity that makes the workers not want their sermons/beliefs spread through the internet. It has been a "secret sect" for nearly the whole 100 plus years and the workers have enjoyed the privileges of being the controllers of the fellowship/religion and when the public starts getting involved then the secret benefit is gone....just look at what happened in the British Isles when the Impartial Reporter and other news reporters said and did in the first years of the fellowship...it wasn't pleasant for the workers because they were pushed into being on the defense and it took away from their power and controll of the fellowship. The workers do not want interruptions into their way of doing for the past 100 plus years....it just makes things too sticky and hard for them.
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Post by JO on Mar 18, 2012 13:29:47 GMT -5
JO, why did you even post that. There is very little truth in most of it, and it is almost like a list of what to use for the Mind control program. If you know friends like that, I need to go to that planet because it isn't here on this earth. (again, I am generalizing as I do know some like that, but not a majority) Why did I post that? Because it's taught in the 2x2 church, but not as a formal document of course. God's purpose during lifetime is to conform us to the image of his son. Yes, it is mind control. We ask God to possess our hearts and fill our minds with light and wisdom from on high. Yes, I do know friends like this. You don't need to go to a different planet to find them, but you will need an appreciation for the attributes of the kingdom of heaven. At the end of life its not going to matter whether we were a Catholic or a Calvinist or a 2x2. What is going to matter is whether our citizinship is in heaven, whether we've set our hearts on things above. ============================================ Colossians 3 Living as Those Made Alive in Christ 1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. 5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11 Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. 12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. 15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16 Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another
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Post by Happy Feet on Mar 18, 2012 15:27:11 GMT -5
Bert, the site does not tell me what the doctrine of your church is. It focuses on man's ways of doing things. Surely the doctrine should be the Gospel, not our works and method of doing things.
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