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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2012 17:24:59 GMT -5
sacerdotal, glad to read this post, you've pushed it too far this time, now it's obvious you are just winding us all up. Phew, I'm very happy you aren't for real. You are kidding, right? You are kidding, right?
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Post by Scott Ross on Mar 19, 2012 17:43:55 GMT -5
In my opinion, there are a whole bunch of church-going people who are so wrapped up in ACTING like a Christian that they miss out on just BEING a Christian. It ain't rocket science. Like msew mentioned: Jesus taught a pretty simple message, and man has spent the last few thousand plus years trying to make it as difficult as possible to just BE a Christian. Two simple commandments he gave us to follow: Matthew22 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” And this simple message in: John 11 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”Being a simple guy, I can appreciate the simple messages from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I don't need some preacher man telling me how I need to live my life, as I can go to the source of my salvation for the words and teachings that I need. All my convictions are based on Him, not on what someone tells me I should believe. Like I am fond of saying, 'what someone else believes does not affect my salvation'. ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) Scott ![8-)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/cool.png)
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Post by sacerdotal on Mar 19, 2012 17:50:28 GMT -5
You doubt that a well respected worker would say that a "person dyeing her hair was showing plainly that she wasn't dying enough on the inside?" Why? Do you disagree with his statement? I find it amazing that folks don't want to believe what I am writing even though, as God is my witness, I am being as accurate as I possibly can. I profess. I love this fellowship. But Jesus said not to hide our light under the bed. Is that what you want me to do? Hide the truth because it makes professing people (or unprofessing) people uncomfortable. I spoke with that worker not too long ago- and he was still against women dyeing their hair. Again- why can't we speak the truth about the Truth on sites like this? Maybe the doctrine needs to be examined if it can't be shared honestly and openly. Unless, of course, you subscribe to what some teach that to do so is to cast our pearls before swine.
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Post by emy on Mar 19, 2012 17:56:15 GMT -5
Emy, this is the verse that many people love to quote, " For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8But they happily ignore the whopping 45% of Ephesians which speaks of works we are required to perform. .... "Required to perform" doesn't quite resonate for me. The verse I quoted says that God has ordained them or prepared or planned them for us to do. I don't think NOT doing them will nullify our salvation, but doing them will surely enhance it. After all, it's something God has planned for believers. Also it fits with what John said: John 3:30 He must increase; I must decrease. It also fits with what Jesus said: John 13:17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them. and Matt. 7: 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
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Post by emy on Mar 19, 2012 17:57:58 GMT -5
Required to perform to earn/gain salvation? .... He didn't say that, did he?
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Post by Scott Ross on Mar 19, 2012 18:18:07 GMT -5
I think it is just fine that you are posting what you have heard taught in meetings by the workers. So far, it lines up with what I remember being taught. Pretty much why many people no longer go to meetings....... Man-made doctrines which don't line up with scripture. (at least not in my opinion) However, not ALL workers teach as you are sharing. But since there is no clear cut doctrine that is true for the church world wide (or even country wide) workers are not held accountable for their teachings. So..... like you are pointing out, there are many workers that do NOT want to answer questions, although..... Colossians 4 5 Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity. 6 Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone. Or perhaps this from: 1 Peter 3 15 But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.I don't think that scripture gives out any exceptions to this, but maybe I am wrong...... ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) Scott ![8-)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/cool.png)
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Post by emy on Mar 19, 2012 18:19:38 GMT -5
I think BERT and Emy may be a bit confused with what Ephs. is saying about "working".....works are for rewards of deeds not for life eternal! Nowhere did I say that these works are required for salvation. (I see that Bert did say something like that, but I did not.) My statement was they are ordained by God. ( ordain: to decree, appoint, or predestine irrevocably) Therefore, IMO they are something that will be profitable for our soul, now and eternally. To not do them presumes upon God's mercy. All of this assumes the help and strength of God to accomplish. He is more than happy to provide it for the asking. (John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.)
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Post by JO on Mar 19, 2012 18:50:45 GMT -5
I think BERT and Emy may be a bit confused with what Ephs. is saying about "working".....works are for rewards of deeds not for life eternal! Separating "rewards" and "salvation" is a way of making scripture fit the Once-Saved-Always-Saved doctrine. I'm not comfortable with the whole concept of our relationship with God being built around a business deal. Its like getting a lawyer to draw up a marriage contract. Or a child asking its parents what they will give it for being good. Jesus did a lot of works - neither for "rewards" or for life eternal. He was impelled by love. Why are Christians so obsessed with "what's in it for me"?
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Post by StAnne on Mar 19, 2012 18:59:12 GMT -5
And I think the emphasis should be written here....when Jesus told those who were gathered on His right side as the sheep, He told of them doing all of the above merciful deeds to Him or to someone in His name...and those "sheep" were amazed and asked Him, "Lord, WHEN did we do these things...?"
all that they supposedly had done was not retained in their mind, looking to justify their expectation of being paid back....they just did those things as just part of being a good sheep, a good steward, a good child of God! Sharon, this is a perfect picture of those who have been ordained to eternal life, God's elect, God's sheep. They know they are saved and live accordingly, not conscious of measuring their good deeds. It's just what they do because God is doing it through them! He is the one in control of their lives working out His will and His good pleasure so that they act like Jesus did. Jesus also said, that of himself he could DO nothing. It was all God's doing. Those who believe they need to be doing for salvation cannot help but be completely conscious of their every thought, word and deed because they themselves need to keep it in line with God's word. It makes the Gospel utterly powerless. They are the ones who will say, Didn't we do this, didn't we do that, didn't we keep faithful? And God will say He never knew them. Believe the Gospel (all that was done to save mankind from their sins) and be yoked with Him and as Jesus says: "My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” I trust in nothing but His Blood and Righteousness for salvation then all the glory belongs to Him. I can let go of trying to perform and rest in Christ who performs in and through me! It isn't doing for salvation - it is doing as a result of receiving the grace of salvation. 41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
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Post by Scott Ross on Mar 19, 2012 18:59:14 GMT -5
I think BERT and Emy may be a bit confused with what Ephs. is saying about "working".....works are for rewards of deeds not for life eternal! Separating "rewards" and "salvation" is a way of making scripture fit the Once-Saved-Always-Saved doctrine. I'm not comfortable with the whole concept of our relationship with God being built around a business deal. Its like getting a lawyer to draw up a marriage contract. Or a child asking its parents what they will give it for being good. Jesus did a lot of works - neither for "rewards" or for life eternal. He was impelled by love. Why are Christians so obsessed with "what's in it for me"? Separating "rewards" and "salvation" is a way of making scripture fit the Once-Saved-Always-Saved doctrine.Doesn't scripture make a distinction between the two? It seems to me that they are spoken of as being separate one from the other. Scott ![8-)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/cool.png)
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Post by SharonArnold on Mar 19, 2012 19:06:21 GMT -5
Like I am fond of saying, 'what someone else believes does not affect my salvation'. True. One of my favorites: "What you think of me is none of my business."
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2012 19:45:56 GMT -5
We had an unpleasant secretary once. She said that she had learnt never to worry what other people said about her. It annoyed her one day when I replied, "Would you worry if what they said is true?"
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2012 20:51:45 GMT -5
I think BERT and Emy may be a bit confused with what Ephs. is saying about "working".....works are for rewards of deeds not for life eternal! Separating "rewards" and "salvation" is a way of making scripture fit the Once-Saved-Always-Saved doctrine. I'm not comfortable with the whole concept of our relationship with God being built around a business deal. Its like getting a lawyer to draw up a marriage contract. Or a child asking its parents what they will give it for being good. Jesus did a lot of works - neither for "rewards" or for life eternal. He was impelled by love. Why are Christians so obsessed with "what's in it for me"? I agree. I'm not overly impressed with some of the conventional Christian thinking on this subject either. It's confusing and complex....no wonder it takes so long to become a Christian these days. It practically takes a Philadelphia lawyer to sort through all the complexities and theories. I see salvation as a "state of being". You're connected with "the Christ within" or you're not. It's not a matter of doing a list of works, nor is it a matter being part of a religious group, nor can any person give it or take it away, approve it or disapprove of it. It's not a matter of declaring your state of grace either. It's a real life relationship with Truth and Divine Love which is the "Christ within".
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Post by DumSpiroSpero on Mar 20, 2012 6:15:32 GMT -5
I agree. I'm not overly impressed with some of the conventional Christian thinking on this subject either. It's confusing and complex....no wonder it takes so long to become a Christian these days. It practically takes a Philadelphia lawyer to sort through all the complexities and theories. I see salvation as a "state of being". You're connected with "the Christ within" or you're not. It's not a matter of doing a list of works, nor is it a matter being part of a religious group, nor can any person give it or take it away, approve it or disapprove of it. It's not a matter of declaring your state of grace either. It's a real life relationship with Truth and Divine Love which is the "Christ within Beautiful simple words Clearday. Thank you. Modified to fix format error
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msew
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Post by msew on Mar 20, 2012 6:25:35 GMT -5
But they happily ignore the whopping 45% of Ephesians which speaks of works we are required to perform.
Emy, since Bert doesn't believe he is saved yet then surely it stands to reason his performance must have some effect on his salvation. Maybe Bert can tell us if they are requirements for salvation or works we do because we are saved, born of God's Spirit and new creatures in Christ.
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Post by peacefullycurious on Mar 20, 2012 18:25:38 GMT -5
And I think the emphasis should be written here....when Jesus told those who were gathered on His right side as the sheep, He told of them doing all of the above merciful deeds to Him or to someone in His name...and those "sheep" were amazed and asked Him, "Lord, WHEN did we do these things...?"
all that they supposedly had done was not retained in their mind, looking to justify their expectation of being paid back....they just did those things as just part of being a good sheep, a good steward, a good child of God! Sharon, this is a perfect picture of those who have been ordained to eternal life, God's elect, God's sheep. They know they are saved and live accordingly, not conscious of measuring their good deeds. It's just what they do because God is doing it through them! He is the one in control of their lives working out His will and His good pleasure so that they act like Jesus did. Jesus also said, that of himself he could DO nothing. It was all God's doing. Those who believe they need to be doing for salvation cannot help but be completely conscious of their every thought, word and deed because they themselves need to keep it in line with God's word. It makes the Gospel utterly powerless. They are the ones who will say, Didn't we do this, didn't we do that, didn't we keep faithful? And God will say He never knew them. Believe the Gospel (all that was done to save mankind from their sins) and be yoked with Him and as Jesus says: "My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” I trust in nothing but His Blood and Righteousness for salvation then all the glory belongs to Him. I can let go of trying to perform and rest in Christ who performs in and through me! It isn't doing for salvation - it is doing as a result of receiving the grace of salvation. 41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” What does this mean for us today? Taken literally, should we find and feed the hungry, visit prisons, etc? Or is it just to provide for people of a certain walk/sect, requiring us to judge who is worthy of help *I hope not* or is it like The Good Samaritan, we help who we come across? Or, spoken by Jesus, was it to humble the religious leaders of the time? ??
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Post by sharonw on Mar 20, 2012 20:24:29 GMT -5
I think BERT and Emy may be a bit confused with what Ephs. is saying about "working".....works are for rewards of deeds not for life eternal! Separating "rewards" and "salvation" is a way of making scripture fit the Once-Saved-Always-Saved doctrine. I'm not comfortable with the whole concept of our relationship with God being built around a business deal. Its like getting a lawyer to draw up a marriage contract. Or a child asking its parents what they will give it for being good. Jesus did a lot of works - neither for "rewards" or for life eternal. He was impelled by love. Why are Christians so obsessed with "what's in it for me"? First, JO, our salvation AND our deeds(works) ARE separated in heaven. Do you not know that on Judgment Day that there will be THE Lamb's Book of Life where people who are saved(believe in Jesus' sacrifice and resurrection) AND t he books of man's deeds which will be opened and read to the Just Judge on Judgment Day. So IF they are separated in heaven, why would it not be sensible to separate them on earth? Jesus died on the cross for all mankind. Now if you think you're supposed to do and act like Jesus, why are you not dying on the cross physically like He did? Jesus is someone to follow, but we cannot even do a fair job of emulating Him, JO....for Jesus is 100 per cent God BEFORE He became 100 per cent human. And there is no possible way that Jesus lost His "god" part just because He took on mortal flesh. Also, do you think that if any man or woman would die on the cross for all of mankinds' sins, do you think that you could "redeem" your fellow man. I did not speak about OSAS for I don't believe that and most Baptists don't truly believe that. That phrase is a phrase that people who were very strictly against Baptist doctrine put out that Baptist believe OSAS....I haven't met a Baptist YET that believes OSAS. Good works are to prove your faith to your fellow man. Good works or good deeds are what is written in the books of deeds that will be opened and read on Judgment Day....that is simple to understand and has nothing to do with OSAS.
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Post by sharonw on Mar 20, 2012 20:39:23 GMT -5
Separating "rewards" and "salvation" is a way of making scripture fit the Once-Saved-Always-Saved doctrine. I'm not comfortable with the whole concept of our relationship with God being built around a business deal. Its like getting a lawyer to draw up a marriage contract. Or a child asking its parents what they will give it for being good. Jesus did a lot of works - neither for "rewards" or for life eternal. He was impelled by love. Why are Christians so obsessed with "what's in it for me"? I agree. I'm not overly impressed with some of the conventional Christian thinking on this subject either. It's confusing and complex....no wonder it takes so long to become a Christian these days. It practically takes a Philadelphia lawyer to sort through all the complexities and theories. I see salvation as a "state of being". You're connected with "the Christ within" or you're not. It's not a matter of doing a list of works, nor is it a matter being part of a religious group, nor can any person give it or take it away, approve it or disapprove of it. It's not a matter of declaring your state of grace either. It's a real life relationship with Truth and Divine Love which is the "Christ within". Clearday, there is NO confusin that I know of when God separates the "deeds" from salvation for each individual....perhaps this is why you're confused you cannot fit them together at all, thus you're confused. Whereas IF you will just set back and FIRST you must think about salvation....and that a person can only receive salvation by believing in Jesus Christ...His death for all of mankind's sin AND His resurrection. Okay? What's confusing about that? It takes a lot of "faith" to ACCEPT the gift of salvation through Jesus' sacrifice....so if someone MUST think about doing good works or deeds to ADD something to Jesus' sacrifice it is apparent they do NOT have the faith that makes accepting this gift of grace through Jesus' blood. Think about that for a while. Now secondly, once you get it into your being, your believing that Jesus' gospel of salvation is "FINISHED"....Jesus said it in His prayer in John 17 that His work that God had sent Him to do was "finished" and He also is reported to have cried with a loud voice "IT is finished". Do you not understand when something IS FINISHED, that NO ONE can add anything to that which is finished...so why confuse things and believe that one's good works/deeds are necessary to obtain AND keep salvation...when keeping salvation is keeping one's faith alive and well through appealing to God that it might be so. As faith is also a gift from God, then He is the one who controls that gift, not man. Now one can think freely and unconfused about the good works that the love of God has put in our hearts to do. Good works/deeds are that which proclaim one's faith to one's fellow man. In that it shows that we love our brothers/sisters on earth, and we do not trespass against them....these are the good works that God has recorded in heaven...when we live "in peace and grace" together.
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Post by sharonw on Mar 20, 2012 20:45:58 GMT -5
It isn't doing for salvation - it is doing as a result of receiving the grace of salvation. 41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” What does this mean for us today? Taken literally, should we find and feed the hungry, visit prisons, etc? Or is it just to provide for people of a certain walk/sect, requiring us to judge who is worthy of help *I hope not* or is it like The Good Samaritan, we help who we come across? Or, spoken by Jesus, was it to humble the religious leaders of the time? ?? As I'm not Stanne, buy I have written a post recently about a pure and undefiled religion described in the scripture. Also I mentioned that often when people are starving, thirsting in the physical sense there IS NO need to try and get them to gospel mtgs. They are not able to get into spiritual matters when all that matters is having enough food for the very day they find themselves in. Also I mentioned on the island of Madagascar off the eastern coast of Africa that even workers learned this phenomenon of not being able to preach to those poor Madgascarians who were starving. Most chuches who are into relieving world hunger have missionaries that go into the lands where famine is a problem and they know that it is vital to get those natural needs met before they can even dare to try and teach them about a loving God.... Here's the verse about pure religion. Jam 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world. Often we might wonder how we can keep from being spotted from the world....but seems to do that is just loving God priority and loving one another, dwelling in peace and grace.
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Post by StAnne on Mar 20, 2012 21:48:16 GMT -5
It isn't doing for salvation - it is doing as a result of receiving the grace of salvation. 41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” What does this mean for us today? Taken literally, should we find and feed the hungry, visit prisons, etc? Or is it just to provide for people of a certain walk/sect, requiring us to judge who is worthy of help *I hope not* or is it like The Good Samaritan, we help who we come across? Or, spoken by Jesus, was it to humble the religious leaders of the time? ?? For us today, there are so many opportunities to help. It is easy for us as Catholics because there are so many ministries. Our parish is active in a number of ministries and there are also the worldwide Catholic ministries of Catholic Charities and Catholic Relief (it's like Red Cross), Food for the Poor. They are for any who have need, and are not limited to a particular walk or sect. The opportunities are nearly endless. Our parish St Vincent de Paul society helped 217 people in February, received $6,089, disbursed $3,775 (some months there are no carry-over funds) 534 hours of service, 1,925 unreimbursed miles. This is typically help with rent, food, car repair, utilities, etc. They go to personally meet with the people who request help, to see what their needs are and the different ways they may be able to assist. Other on-going parish ministries are bread and milk money and food items for the local food pantry; a ministry that helps mothers before birth and mothers and babies needing clothing, baby items, diapers; visiting nursing home and assisted living centers; blankets, coats, clothing and food items for a metro-area homeless shelter established and run by a Carmelite nun - they feed homeless people on weekends when the food kitchens are closed; money offerings for an orphanage in Haiti that our parish helps to support; and I see a new Lenten ministry in our bulletin that offers assistance for incarcerated women, Second Chance Act Project for Women. In the season of Advent preceding Christmas, there is an outreach for gifts for the Birth Center, Veterans' Hospital, and care centers for the disabled and elderly. I know there are many more - but these are some that come to mind quickly. I know that other churches are active in the community as well because I have a Methodist friend who is very active in the community ministry of helping the poor, the homeless, anyone else of need.
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Post by JO on Mar 21, 2012 4:55:17 GMT -5
Jesus is someone to follow, but we cannot even do a fair job of emulating Him, JO....for Jesus is 100 per cent God BEFORE He became 100 per cent human. And there is no possible way that Jesus lost His "god" part just because He took on mortal flesh. So, Jesus took on mortal flesh and died on the cross, all the while remaining 100% God? You trinitarians come up with some strange concepts. God had a mother and God died, sort of hard for me to get my head around.
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Post by kencoolidge on Mar 21, 2012 7:49:21 GMT -5
Jesus is someone to follow, but we cannot even do a fair job of emulating Him, JO....for Jesus is 100 per cent God BEFORE He became 100 per cent human. And there is no possible way that Jesus lost His "god" part just because He took on mortal flesh. So, Jesus took on mortal flesh and died on the cross, all the while remaining 100% God? You trinitarians come up with some strange concepts. God had a mother and God died, sort of hard for me to get my head around. Jesus Only Is that your handle? Perhaps its not from your post. What is your agenda if its not Jesus Only ken
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Post by StAnne on Mar 21, 2012 8:32:43 GMT -5
Jesus is someone to follow, but we cannot even do a fair job of emulating Him, JO....for Jesus is 100 per cent God BEFORE He became 100 per cent human. And there is no possible way that Jesus lost His "god" part just because He took on mortal flesh. So, Jesus took on mortal flesh and died on the cross, all the while remaining 100% God? You trinitarians come up with some strange concepts. God had a mother and God died, sort of hard for me to get my head around. Only Jesus' human body and human nature died on the cross. Jesus' divine nature did not die, IOW, God did not die. The evidence of that is that while Jesus' body lay in the tomb, his spirit descended to Hades to preach to the spirits there. So we know his spirit did not die.
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Post by lazarus66 on Mar 21, 2012 11:55:03 GMT -5
Sacerdotal, I think you are confusing what a worker says, and truth. Just because a worker says it does not make it truth. It can be truth, but not just because they are a worker.
Isn't it rather presumptuous for a worker to "judge" a person that has dyed their hair and presume that they are not right on the inside.
My bible reads that the Pharisees did the outward things right, but were like bones in a grave on the inside. That seems to be this workers message, and they have no right judging anyone, by what they see on the outside. Remember, Jesus didn't size up the thief on the cross by his dress,(or lack thereof). That is the downfall of 2x2 thinking that anyone, especially that a worker could look at someone's outside and know what was inside.
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Post by sacerdotal on Mar 21, 2012 12:29:58 GMT -5
Sacerdotal, I think you are confusing what a worker says, and truth. Just because a worker says it does not make it truth. It can be truth, but not just because they are a worker. Isn't it rather presumptuous for a worker to "judge" a person that has dyed their hair and presume that they are not right on the inside. My bible reads that the Pharisees did the outward things right, but were like bones in a grave on the inside. That seems to be this workers message, and they have no right judging anyone, by what they see on the outside. Remember, Jesus didn't size up the thief on the cross by his dress,(or lack thereof). That is the downfall of 2x2 thinking that anyone, especially that a worker could look at someone's outside and know what was inside. Surely, ye jest. One overseer made it very clear in a bible study regarding what Jesus said "Clean ye first the inside and the outside will take care of itself." Therefore, it stands to reason, that if the outside isn't clean then the inside must REALLY be dirty. The outward filth plainly indicates the inward man's awful condition. Or, so the overseer said. We need to be careful that we do not let the leaven of pride enter in and cause us to question God's servants. We must never lose our respect or obedience to them, even if they are wrong. (As helpfully indicated in a letter by overseer Dale Shultz.)
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Post by JO on Mar 21, 2012 13:19:50 GMT -5
So, Jesus took on mortal flesh and died on the cross, all the while remaining 100% God? You trinitarians come up with some strange concepts. God had a mother and God died, sort of hard for me to get my head around. Only Jesus' human body and human nature died on the cross. Jesus' divine nature did not die, IOW, God did not die. The evidence of that is that while Jesus' body lay in the tomb, his spirit descended to Hades to preach to the spirits there. So we know his spirit did not die. So Mary was not the Mother of God? She was only the mother of Jesus' human body and human nature?
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Post by Happy Feet on Mar 21, 2012 14:29:04 GMT -5
Only Jesus' human body and human nature died on the cross. Jesus' divine nature did not die, IOW, God did not die. The evidence of that is that while Jesus' body lay in the tomb, his spirit descended to Hades to preach to the spirits there. So we know his spirit did not die. So Mary was not the Mother of God? She was only the mother of Jesus' human body and human nature? Did Jesus sin? No!! Somewhere it says in the Bible that if any one says he has not sinned he is a liar. So either the whole concept that Jesus didn't sin (he was found without sin) is a lie or he sinned? As he did not sin he can only be God as only God cannot sin. Mary was the mother of Jesus (the Son), not the mother of the father, if that is what you are suggesting. The 3 are separate as God is made up of 3 parts. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are one God, not one being.
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Post by JO on Mar 21, 2012 14:47:57 GMT -5
The way I see it HF, is:
If God was born of Mary, then God died on the cross.
If Jesus, the son of God was born of Mary then Jesus the son of God died on the cross.
Was Mary the mother of God or not?
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