|
Post by Happy Feet on Mar 24, 2012 23:52:53 GMT -5
ok JO - now I get you.....
|
|
|
Post by StAnne on Mar 25, 2012 0:06:03 GMT -5
“The Chalcedonian formula makes genuine humanity impossible. The conciliar definition says that Jesus is true man. But if there are two natures in him, it is clear which will dominate. And Jesus becomes immediately very different from us…. Jesus is tempted but cannot sin because he is God. What kind of temptation is this? It has little incommon with the kinds of struggles we are familiar with.” --Roman Catholic theologian Thomas Hart, To Know and Follow Jesus (Paulist Press,1984), 46 thanks for all you've posted. It's good to see someone on the RCC side pointing out the obvious. It is very difficult to know from out-of-context quotes how reliable the quote is. A general rule of thumb - one should keep in mind when reading the out-of-context quotes in this thread that anything written that is contrary to church teaching should not be considered ' on the RCC side' of things. I am not judging the verity of this particular quote - because we have no context from which to discern.
|
|
|
Post by JO on Mar 25, 2012 0:43:58 GMT -5
That doesn't make sense to me Nate.
Are you saying God the Father is a spirit or...
The three-person-god is a spirit?
Is each "person" also a "spirit"?
Is the Spirit of God aka the Holy Spirit aka the Holy Ghost...
...both a person and a spirit?
I can understand the Spirit of God being a spirit, but...
...I have trouble with the Spirit of God being both a spirit and also a person.
Does a trinity of spirits = one Spirit?
Is the Holy Spirit actually the spirit of God the Father...
...or the spirit of the three persons combined?
|
|
|
Post by DumSpiroSpero on Mar 25, 2012 3:11:22 GMT -5
OK - for the record, I am not polytheist. I don't think I'm capable of understanding God's form and identity. For me there is sufficient evidence to suggest that Jesus is as eternal as God, and that the Holy Spirit/Ghost is also. There is conflicting evidence regarding God/Jesus/Holy Spirit as one or separate entities. I'm not about to join the trinitarian/non-trinitarian debate either. Your position is pretty well the same as mine pa1ag1..... although I consider myself trinitarian "in nature". Another poster will say that this is not possible as I do not necessarily subscribe to the minutae of the creeds. I have watched this thread with interest and have great respect for those arguing the "non" side, however my position still remains unmoved. Thanks fred - I spoke with our pastor today about this subject - he, like most Baptists, understands that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one God, and also, like me, admits he lacks the capability and capacity to understand God's characteristics, form and identity.
|
|
|
Post by JO on Mar 25, 2012 4:37:05 GMT -5
A Pentecostal pastor told me his mentor Pentecostal pastor told him something like "there are more important things than trying to figure out the makeup of the godhead".
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2012 5:05:39 GMT -5
Clearday, I am delighted to read your post. I have never heard this before. Part of my King James bible has been forged by Trinitarians...
|
|
|
Post by Gene on Mar 25, 2012 7:38:28 GMT -5
What problem is it that the doctrine of the trinity solves?
|
|
|
Post by StAnne on Mar 25, 2012 7:55:01 GMT -5
If you say that Jesus cannot be God because he was tempted then you have to also say that God (The Father) cannot be God because he was tempted. We clearly see that from these verses God (who ever you say he was) was tempted. This makes no sense to me. God cannot be tempted. Satan knew that, and the bible says that. ========================================== James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; Because it was in his human nature that Jesus was being tried. If Jesus was God, do you not think Satan would know that? Why would Satan try to tempt God? You should read this scripture in context. Jesus quoted three times from the OT, and in each case it was scripture intended for man, not God. If Jesus was God, why would he quote "Man cannot live by bread alone" Are you saying God lives by every word that proceeds from God? Haydock Ver. 3. The tempter here appears to endeavour to discover by stratagem whether Christ was the Son of God. He does not say, if thou be the Son of God, "pray" that these stones be made bread, which he might have said to any man; but "command," effect by thine own authority, that this come to pass. If Christ had done this, the tempter would have instantly concluded, that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, since only God could effect such a miracle. (Dionysius)
|
|
|
Post by StAnne on Mar 25, 2012 8:39:36 GMT -5
What problem is it that the doctrine of the trinity solves? The eternal Word, was begotten of ( caused by) the Father. How could the Word be any other than Divine? We know that it was the Word, God, who took on human flesh, who died on the Cross and Resurrected, that we may have life eternal. Fully God/ Fully Man. Man alone cannot redeem man. We know that Jesus is worthy of worship. Phil 2 (and other passages). We are not to worship more than one God so he has to also be God. Holy Scripture tells us that Jesus is God. Thomas ... " my Lord and my God..." Without a correct understanding of the Holy Trinity, man falls into the error of not being able to explain how Jesus is divine - or how it is that he is to be worshipped because there is only one who is Divine ... or as in Bert's latest quote this morning ... the Holy Scriptures have been 'forged' (or whatever) by the Catholics.
|
|
|
Post by Gene on Mar 25, 2012 9:12:46 GMT -5
I think I got it:
1a: No man is worthy of worship-- only God is worthy of worship.
1b.: No man can redeem mankind-- only God can redeem mankind.
2a: Jesus Christ is worthy of worship.
2b: Jesus Christ redeemed mankind.
3: Jesus was a man
The problem: If '1' is true, either '2' is true or '3' is true, but not both.
Solution: The trinity doctrine! Given that '1' is true and '2' is true, '3' needs to be slightly modified. Jesus was both man AND God! Voila!
There are a number of other solutions, of course... I guess that's what we're arguing about.
|
|
|
Post by sharonw on Mar 25, 2012 9:27:35 GMT -5
God is a spirit (John 4:24), and a spirit does not have flesh and bones. (Luke 24:39). God is a spirit, yet you claim he is a person. And God's spirit is a distinct person? And yet the angel who came to Mary called Jesus a "holy thing".... JO, in eternity do you not expect that YOUR spirit is going to be in heaven with all other's spirits...we'll have a heavenly body....Paul explained this quite well and I quote: 1Cr 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 1Cr 15:39 All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds. 1Cr 15:40 [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [ glory] of the terrestrial [is] another.
|
|
|
Post by StAnne on Mar 25, 2012 9:31:33 GMT -5
I think I got it: 1a: No man is worthy of worship-- only God is worthy of worship. 1b.: No man can redeem mankind-- only God can redeem mankind. 2a: Jesus Christ is worthy of worship. 2b: Jesus Christ redeemed mankind. 3: Jesus was a man The problem: If '1' is true, either '2' is true or '3' is true, but not both. Solution: The trinity doctrine! Given that '1' is true and '2' is true, '3' needs to be slightly modified. Jesus was both man AND God! Voila! There are a number of other solutions, of course... I guess that's what we're arguing about. Great summation!!
|
|
|
Post by rational on Mar 25, 2012 13:45:05 GMT -5
JO, please tell me why you cannot understand the 3individual persons that make up God? The scriptures all through the bible make it plain. The 3 person agree in 1, the 3 persons work as 1, but generally speaking the 3 persons have their individual positions in the only ONE true God. From a christian site, here are some reasons: God is incomprehensible and cannot be understood by man's finite mind. Cardinal John O’Connor
|
|
|
Post by kencoolidge on Mar 25, 2012 14:38:10 GMT -5
A Pentecostal pastor told me his mentor Pentecostal pastor told him something like "there are more important things than trying to figure out the makeup of the godhead". Jo I believe that Pentecostal pastor has it right. ken
|
|
|
Post by JO on Mar 25, 2012 15:21:09 GMT -5
God is a spirit, yet you claim he is a person. And God's spirit is a distinct person? And yet the angel who came to Mary called Jesus a "holy thing".... JO, in eternity do you not expect that YOUR spirit is going to be in heaven with all other's spirits...we'll have a heavenly body....Paul explained this quite well and I quote: 1Cr 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 1Cr 15:39 All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds. 1Cr 15:40 [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [ glory] of the terrestrial [is] another. OK, so there's the spirit of JO And the spirit of God And the spirit of Christ And the spirit of the Holy Ghost? The first person of the trinity has a spirit. The second person of the trinity has a spirit Does the third person of the trinity have a spirit??? God's spirit is referred to as a "person". Is my spirit a "person" as well? If the spirit of God is a "person", what about the spirit of Christ? I'm confused about the relationship between "spirit" and "person".
|
|
|
Post by rational on Mar 25, 2012 15:31:25 GMT -5
A Pentecostal pastor told me his mentor Pentecostal pastor told him something like "there are more important things than trying to figure out the makeup of the godhead". Were these pastors members of Oneness Pentecostalism?
|
|
|
Post by JO on Mar 25, 2012 15:41:36 GMT -5
A Pentecostal pastor told me his mentor Pentecostal pastor told him something like "there are more important things than trying to figure out the makeup of the godhead". Were these pastors members of Oneness Pentecostalism? Sorry, I don't know the answer to that RAT. I had a lot to do with this guy, and I never heard of Oneness Pentecostalism.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2012 15:53:42 GMT -5
Were these pastors members of Oneness Pentecostalism? Sorry, I don't know the answer to that RAT. I had a lot to do with this guy, and I never heard of Oneness Pentecostalism. It's a fair question because the Oneness people are anti-trinitarian so his comment could be a way to avoid addressing it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2012 15:59:44 GMT -5
IllinoisGal mentioned she was a Oneness Pentecostal and that was the first I had ever heard of it. Been an interesting research project to learn more of their beliefs.
|
|
|
Post by StAnne on Mar 25, 2012 16:07:57 GMT -5
And yet the angel who came to Mary called Jesus a "holy thing".... JO, in eternity do you not expect that YOUR spirit is going to be in heaven with all other's spirits...we'll have a heavenly body....Paul explained this quite well and I quote: 1Cr 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 1Cr 15:39 All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds. 1Cr 15:40 [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [ glory] of the terrestrial [is] another. OK, so there's the spirit of JO And the spirit of God And the spirit of Christ And the spirit of the Holy Ghost? The first person of the trinity has a spirit. The second person of the trinity has a spirit Does the third person of the trinity have a spirit??? God's spirit is referred to as a "person". Is my spirit a "person" as well? If the spirit of God is a "person", what about the spirit of Christ? I'm confused about the relationship between "spirit" and "person". If you really want to know, as opposed to just arguing, why don't you do some honest Trinitarian research. See what you find apart from the anti-Trinitarian sources - and then come back and discuss the points.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2012 16:08:45 GMT -5
This is what Oneness people want to see on all church signs:
|
|
|
Post by StAnne on Mar 25, 2012 16:17:51 GMT -5
OK, so there's the spirit of JO And the spirit of God And the spirit of Christ And the spirit of the Holy Ghost? The first person of the trinity has a spirit. The second person of the trinity has a spirit Does the third person of the trinity have a spirit??? God's spirit is referred to as a "person". Is my spirit a "person" as well? If the spirit of God is a "person", what about the spirit of Christ? I'm confused about the relationship between "spirit" and "person". If you really want to know, as opposed to just arguing, why don't you do some honest Trinitarian research. See what you find apart from the anti-Trinitarian sources - and then come back and discuss the points. Here's a place to begin ... These attributes are consistent with personhood. Therefore, we see that the characteristics ascribed to the Holy Spirit - thought, feelings, choice - are attributes of a person.
ACTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT
The deeds that the Holy Spirit performs are deeds only a person can do.
1. Teaching
These things we also speak not in words which mans wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual (1 Corinthians 2:13).
2. Giving Guidance
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God (Romans 8:14).
3. Comforting
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send him to you (John 16:7 KJV).
4. Commanding
Then the Spirit said to Philip, "Go near and overtake this chariot" (Acts 8:29).
5. Giving Understanding
However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak (John 16:13).
6. Speaking
As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, "Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work which I have called them" (Acts 13:2).
These deeds attributed to the Holy Spirit are not the acts of an impersonal force; they are the acts of a person.
Treated As A Person
Whenever the Holy Spirit is encountered in a historical situation we discover that He is always treated as a person. The Bible records that Ananias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit.
But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself" (Acts 5:3).
You can lie only to a person.
Stephen told the Sanhedrin that they were disobeying the Holy Spirit by resisting Him: You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you (Acts 7:51).
You do not disobey an impersonal force, you disobey a person. On another occasion Simon Peter went to the house of Cornelius as the Holy Spirit directed:
While Peter thought about the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Behold three men are seeking you" (Acts 10:19).
Consequently whenever we find the Holy Spirit in a historical narrative He is consistently treated as though He is a person, never as anything less.
Part Of The Godhead
The final reason that we conclude that the Holy Spirit is a person is that He is addressed as God. He is a member of the Godhead which consists of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus said:
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19).
The Father and Son are personal beings and the Holy Spirit is treated in the same manner and assumed to be a person.
Blasphemed
Jesus taught that the Holy Spirit could be blasphemed: Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men (Matthew 12:31).
Only God can be blasphemed. Thus, if the Holy Spirit is God and God is personal, then the Holy Spirit must be personal.
Conclusion
We conclude the following concerning the Holy Spirit:
1. The Holy Spirit has the attributes of a person. 2. The Spirit also performs the acts of a person. 3. The Holy Spirit is treated as a person. 4. The Holy Spirit is God, and therefore, by nature is personal.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2012 16:26:26 GMT -5
Here are 34 reasons why the Spirit is not a Person: www.biblicalunitarian.com/articles/holy-spirit/34-reasons-why-the-holy-spirit-is-not-a-person-separate-from-the-only-true-god-the-father-2Examples: 12. If the “spirit of truth” in John 14:17 is a person, then “the spirit of error” in 1 John 4:6 must also be a person, since the two are directly contrasted. The fact is that each “spirit” represents an influence or a power under which a person acts, but neither is a person in itself. 13. 1 Corinthians 2:12 directly opposes the “spirit of the world” with “the spirit which is of God.” As the “spirit of the world” is not a person separate from “the world,” neither is the “spirit of God” a person separate from God. Each is an influence emanating from a source that produces certain attitudes, behaviors or “fruit.” 14. The “breath” of God and the “spirit” of God are synonymous terms (Job 4:9; Ps. 33:6; Ps. 104:29 and 30; John 3:8; Job 27:3). It is as inconceivable that the breath of God could be a person distinct from God as that the breath of a human could be a person distinct from a human. It is especially absurd to speak of one self-existent and eternal person as “the breath” of another such person.
|
|
|
Post by StAnne on Mar 25, 2012 16:47:10 GMT -5
The spirit of error is an entity and is very real. 'He' has a name. 'He' sounds like a 'person' to me. 3 And every spirit, that dissolveth Jesus, is not of God, and this is antichrist, of whom you have heard that he cometh, and he is now already in the world.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2012 17:07:22 GMT -5
The spirit of error is an entity and is very real. 'He' has a name. 'He' sounds like a 'person' to me. 3 And every spirit, that dissolveth Jesus, is not of God, and this is antichrist, of whom you have heard that he cometh, and he is now already in the world. So the spirit of error is a male person and has all the attributes of a person. Which one of the following definitions of person does your spirit persons fit under? 1.a human being, whether man, woman, or child: The table seats four persons. 2.a human being as distinguished from an animal or a thing. 3.Sociology . an individual human being, especially with reference to his or her social relationships and behavioral patterns as conditioned by the culture. 4.Philosophy . a self-conscious or rational being. 5.the actual self or individual personality of a human being: You ought not to generalize, but to consider the person you are dealing with.
|
|
|
Post by StAnne on Mar 25, 2012 17:38:03 GMT -5
The spirit of error is an entity and is very real. 'He' has a name. 'He' sounds like a 'person' to me. 3 And every spirit, that dissolveth Jesus, is not of God, and this is antichrist, of whom you have heard that he cometh, and he is now already in the world. So the spirit of error is a male person and has all the attributes of a person. Which one of the following definitions of person does your spirit persons fit under? 1.a human being, whether man, woman, or child: The table seats four persons. 2.a human being as distinguished from an animal or a thing. 3.Sociology . an individual human being, especially with reference to his or her social relationships and behavioral patterns as conditioned by the culture. 4.Philosophy . a self-conscious or rational being. 5.the actual self or individual personality of a human being: You ought not to generalize, but to consider the person you are dealing with. Or ... you could have put your big boy pants on and just looked up the theological, philosophical definition of ' person' and then returned to discuss it. 251 In order to articulate the dogma of the Trinity, the Church had to develop her own terminology with the help of certain notions of philosophical origin: "substance", "person" or "hypostasis", "relation" and so on. In doing this, she did not submit the faith to human wisdom, but gave a new and unprecedented meaning to these terms, which from then on would be used to signify an ineffable mystery, "infinitely beyond all that we can humanly understand".82
252 The Church uses (I) the term "substance" (rendered also at times by "essence" or "nature") to designate the divine being in its unity, (II) the term "person" or "hypostasis" to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and (III) the term "relation" to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others. [/color].[/quote] I don't believe I said that. I get the concept of who the spirit of error is in your previously quoted scripture - enough to know that I don't want to be in that camp - elsewhere scripturally called by many other masculine sounding names.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2012 17:49:31 GMT -5
So the spirit of error is a male person and has all the attributes of a person. Which one of the following definitions of person does your spirit persons fit under? 1.a human being, whether man, woman, or child: The table seats four persons. 2.a human being as distinguished from an animal or a thing. 3.Sociology . an individual human being, especially with reference to his or her social relationships and behavioral patterns as conditioned by the culture. 4.Philosophy . a self-conscious or rational being. 5.the actual self or individual personality of a human being: You ought not to generalize, but to consider the person you are dealing with. Or ... you could have put your big boy pants on and looked up the theological, philosophical definition of ' person' and then returned to discuss it. 251 In order to articulate the dogma of the Trinity, the Church had to develop her own terminology with the help of certain notions of philosophical origin: "substance", "person" or "hypostasis", "relation" and so on. In doing this, she did not submit the faith to human wisdom, but gave a new and unprecedented meaning to these terms, which from then on would be used to signify an ineffable mystery, "infinitely beyond all that we can humanly understand".82
252 The Church uses (I) the term "substance" (rendered also at times by "essence" or "nature") to designate the divine being in its unity, (II) the term "person" or "hypostasis" to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and (III) the term "relation" to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others. Got it. This is not a real living person you are talking about, it is a philosophical or theological abstract. Why didn't you just say it wasn't a real living person? That's exactly what you said. You claim "he" is a "person". So this is a male who has the attributes of a human person which includes the specific attributes of a male person as well as all the attributes of a human personality. What tangled webs you weave! The problem with unsound doctrine is much like that of lies. Lies can only be supported by more lies. Unsound doctrine can only be supported by unsound doctrine. In this case, the "person" concept only works if you then create a new theological definition of "person". The web keeps getting more tangled.
|
|
|
Post by sharonw on Mar 25, 2012 17:53:11 GMT -5
IllinoisGal mentioned she was a Oneness Pentecostal and that was the first I had ever heard of it. Been an interesting research project to learn more of their beliefs. If I remember right she doesn't believe or know anything about the Trinity concept. I've had cousins who are Pentecostal and they're pretty much the same as 2x2's in that the "appearance of godliness" is a primary consideration and thus also "seek" to be like Jesus...thus signifying that Jesus is only human.
|
|