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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2012 17:56:41 GMT -5
IllinoisGal mentioned she was a Oneness Pentecostal and that was the first I had ever heard of it. Been an interesting research project to learn more of their beliefs. If I remember right she doesn't believe or know anything about the Trinity concept. Since she believes the Oneness doctrine, then she can't believe in the Trinity.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2012 18:01:56 GMT -5
IllinoisGal mentioned she was a Oneness Pentecostal and that was the first I had ever heard of it. Been an interesting research project to learn more of their beliefs. If I remember right she doesn't believe or know anything about the Trinity concept. I've had cousins who are Pentecostal and they're pretty much the same as 2x2's in that the "appearance of godliness" is a primary consideration and thus also "seek" to be like Jesus...thus signifying that Jesus is only human. Well...the Oneness folks teach Jesus is God if I understand their theology correctly.
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Post by StAnne on Mar 25, 2012 18:04:26 GMT -5
I don't believe I said that. Why didn't you consult theological sources if you really want to know. I get the concept of who the spirit of error is in your quoted post - enough to know that I don't want to be in that camp - elsewhere scripturally called by many other names. That's exactly what you said. You claim "he" is a "person". So this is a male who has the attributes of a human person which includes the specific attributes of a male person as well as all the attributes of a human personality. What tangled webs you weave! The problem with unsound doctrine is much like that of lies. Lies can only be supported by more lies. Unsound doctrine can only be supported by unsound doctrine. In this case, the "person" concept only works if you then create a new theological definition of "person". The web keeps getting more tangled. You accuse wrongly. I did not delve into the definition of 'person' as pertains to the 'spirit of error' - I do not know the attributes of the 'prince of demons' . I did not research it, I don't know what they are - in fact - I also said 'entity' ... leaving it open ... and I do not wish to further research it. BTW, what I actually wrote is ... 'He' sounds like a 'person' to me.I was indicating the pronoun 'he' - not the 'entity'.
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Post by StAnne on Mar 25, 2012 18:16:42 GMT -5
Or ... you could have put your big boy pants on and looked up the theological, philosophical definition of ' person' and then returned to discuss it. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) 251 In order to articulate the dogma of the Trinity, the Church had to develop her own terminology with the help of certain notions of philosophical origin: "substance", "person" or "hypostasis", "relation" and so on. In doing this, she did not submit the faith to human wisdom, but gave a new and unprecedented meaning to these terms, which from then on would be used to signify an ineffable mystery, "infinitely beyond all that we can humanly understand".82
252 The Church uses (I) the term "substance" (rendered also at times by "essence" or "nature") to designate the divine being in its unity, (II) the term "person" or "hypostasis" to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and (III) the term "relation" to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others. Got it. This is not a real living person you are talking about, it is a philosophical or theological abstract. Why didn't you just say it wasn't a real living person? If you would spend more time learning about orthodox Trinitarian teaching instead of hanging out in the anti-Trinitarian sites you would have already known that. (although I would imagine you already did know that ... )
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Post by JO on Mar 25, 2012 18:43:54 GMT -5
I've had cousins who are Pentecostal and they're pretty much the same as 2x2's in that the "appearance of godliness" is a primary consideration and thus also "seek" to be like Jesus...thus signifying that Jesus is only human. This is the accusation you level against 2x2s Sharon. God is looking for people who are willing for him to conform them to the image of his only begotten son. Be careful that you don't join with those who deny that Jesus came in the flesh. Do you want to be conformed to the image of God's son? Do you want fellowship with Jesus as your elder brother? ============================================ Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
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Post by SharonArnold on Mar 25, 2012 18:48:21 GMT -5
What problem is it that the doctrine of the trinity solves? Okay, I may be just intellectually challenged here. (Thank God - perhaps.) My question would kinda.... be the same as Gene's. When you get up in the morning and are brushing your teeth and looking at yourself in the mirror - what difference does it make? Really? How does it make a difference in your life? How does it impact the way you treat your dog? your family? the people in traffic? the people at work? the clerk in the grocery store? How does it add or take away from your feelings of peace and of contentment and trust in life? How does it add or take away from YOUR contribution to this world? ReallY? This is what I would like to see explained in real and concrete terms instead of this interminable wrangling.
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Post by JO on Mar 25, 2012 18:58:31 GMT -5
SharonArnold, when people see Jesus as their older brother, and let God conform them to his image, then it makes a huge difference in their lives.
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Post by SharonArnold on Mar 25, 2012 19:32:10 GMT -5
SharonArnold, when people see Jesus as their older brother, and let God conform them to his image, then it makes a huge difference in their lives. Ummmm… JO, I have respect for you, for how you show up on this board… but you are shifting from the real to the unreal for me now. There are people who say that they realized that Jesus is God and that has made all the difference in their lives. Comment? (I’m in the middle of watching an old Audrey Hepburn Parisian movie.) How? Are these not just thoughts? (Any human being thinks between 12000 – 60000 thoughts per day.) What is sacred about a thought? Are beliefs not thoughts you keep thinking? The only thing that impresses me is how this makes a CONCRETE difference in your life. <<But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.>>
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Post by JO on Mar 25, 2012 19:45:51 GMT -5
Sharon, I agree with you.
The fruits reveal the extent of God's work in a life.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2012 19:50:35 GMT -5
SharonArnold, when people see Jesus as their older brother, and let God conform them to his image, then it makes a huge difference in their lives. Ummmm… JO, I have respect for you, for how you show up on this board… but you are shifting from the real to the unreal for me now. There are people who say that they realized that Jesus is God and that has made all the difference in their lives. Comment? (I’m in the middle of watching an old Audrey Hepburn Parisian movie.) How? Are these not just thoughts? (Any human being thinks between 12000 – 60000 thoughts per day.) What is sacred about a thought? Are beliefs not thoughts you keep thinking? The only thing that impresses me is how this makes a CONCRETE difference in your life. <<But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.>> I'm on the same page with you. I keep trying to figure out why it is a "salvation" issue. I either have been born again, have the Holy Spirit indwelling my life and the resulting fruit or I don't--whether or not I can properly define a theological "person."
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Post by kencoolidge on Mar 25, 2012 19:58:24 GMT -5
SharonArnold, when people see Jesus as their older brother, and let God conform them to his image, then it makes a huge difference in their lives. JO I think I understand what you are trying to say. Surrendering to Gods will through understanding Jesus sacrifice and resurrection Following Him and being baptised with holy spirit gives followers the power to overcome the theologians, athiestm and any opposition. The enemy provides lots of rabbit to chase and that waste precious time where we could get our roots to the wells of living water. JMT Ken
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2012 20:36:44 GMT -5
Here is a good example of how the early manuscripts get edited to fit into a theology. In this case, the Latin manuscripts are nuanced to give translators the idea that the word "it" is supposed to be "him", unlike the initial translations from early Greek manuscripts which all translated "it" instead of "him".
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
"Tyndale's translation of John 1:3-4 reads,
John 1:3,4 - All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men.
As you can see, Tyndale used "it" instead of "him." "It" is a translation of the Greek "autou" meaning he, she, or it. What this tells us is that Tyndale did not read Messiah into the "logos" or "word" of verse 1 and he was not influenced by the Latin Vulgate or Wycliffe.
Miles Coverdale, a friend of Tyndale, gave us the first complete Bible printed in English in 1535. It was not a firsthand translation from the Hebrew and Greek, but was based on the Latin Vulgate and Tyndale's translation. Coverdale used "him" in John 1:3-4.
In 1537, John Rogers, using the pseudonym "Thomas Matthew," published a translation based largely on Tyndale and Coverdale which became known as Matthew's Bible. He uses "it" in John 1:3-4.
The Great Bible followed in 1539 and was a revision of Matthew's Bible. The first edition was prepared by Miles Coverdale. For some reason Coverdale decided "it" was more correct than "him" which appeared in his 1535 version based on the Latin Vulgate and left John 1:3-4 as it was in Matthew's translation, "it" instead of "him." The Great Bible was the first authorized English version and was ordered to be placed in every church.
Under Queen Mary the printing of the English Bible ended and its use in the churches was forbidden. This gave rise to a version completed in Geneva. The Geneva Bible of 1560 was the first Bible to have numbered verses, each set off as a separate paragraph. This Bible became the "household Bible of the English-speaking nations." It held that position for about 75 years. It was Shakespeare's Bible and that of the Puritans who settled New England. Once again, the translation of John 1:3-4 follows Tyndale's example, "it" instead of "him."
Queen Elizabeth eventually reinstated the order that a copy of the Bible be placed in every church and she encouraged its reading. Since there were not enough copies of the Great Bible, the bishops themselves made a new revision known as the Bishop's Bible. It was published in 1568. It was used mostly by the clergy, not being very popular with the common people. It, too, renders John 1:3-4 using "it," not "him."
In 1582, the Roman Catholic version of the New Testament was completed and known as the Rheims New Testament. It was the result of a battle between Papists and Protestants, the former believing the Latin Vulgate to be the standard upon which all translations should be made. It was the work of Roman Catholic scholars based on the Latin. They chose to render John 1:3-4 using "him" as did the previous versions based on the Vulgate.
From that point on, all future versions, beginning with the King James version of 1611, used "him" instead of "it" in their translation of John 1:3-4. As you can see, the following translation of John 1:3-4 is not without historic and linguistic foundation;
"All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men." "
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2012 20:49:33 GMT -5
SharonArnold, when people see Jesus as their older brother, and let God conform them to his image, then it makes a huge difference in their lives. Ummmm… JO, I have respect for you, for how you show up on this board… but you are shifting from the real to the unreal for me now. There are people who say that they realized that Jesus is God and that has made all the difference in their lives. Comment? (I’m in the middle of watching an old Audrey Hepburn Parisian movie.) How? Are these not just thoughts? (Any human being thinks between 12000 – 60000 thoughts per day.) What is sacred about a thought? Are beliefs not thoughts you keep thinking? The only thing that impresses me is how this makes a CONCRETE difference in your life. <<But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.>> It solves some big problems. If you believe in the Trinity, you are going to heaven. If you don't believe in the Trinity, you are going elsewhere. Believe in the Trinity, an eternal problem solved. Also, if you believe in the Trinity, you know who are true believers. You don't want to go through life not knowing who are your brothers who are going to heaven with you. Since you don't know any other way to distinguish them from people in other religions and especially those in your own religion who are fake Christians, then another problem is solved. If you believe in the Trinity, you can claim a special revelation from God. This gives you a superior leg up on all others who don't pretend to understand it or see the fallacy of it. So if you are feeling inferior to other believers, this solves that problem because it moves you right up there. If you fear rejection from the Christian community, claim your belief in the Trinity, and your fears will be solved since it is the primary belief of the majority of Christians. I hope that helps you believe in the Trinity.
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Post by StAnne on Mar 25, 2012 21:06:35 GMT -5
Here is a good example of how the early manuscripts get edited to fit into a theology. In this case, the Latin manuscripts are nuanced to give translators the idea that the word "it" is supposed to be "him", unlike the initial translations from early Greek manuscripts which all translated "it" instead of "him". Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men."Tyndale's translation of John 1:3-4 reads, John 1:3,4 - All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men.As you can see, Tyndale used "it" instead of "him." "It" is a translation of the Greek "autou" meaning he, she, or it. What this tells us is that Tyndale did not read Messiah into the "logos" or "word" of verse 1 and he was not influenced by the Latin Vulgate or Wycliffe. Miles Coverdale, a friend of Tyndale, gave us the first complete Bible printed in English in 1535. It was not a firsthand translation from the Hebrew and Greek, but was based on the Latin Vulgate and Tyndale's translation. Coverdale used "him" in John 1:3-4. In 1537, John Rogers, using the pseudonym "Thomas Matthew," published a translation based largely on Tyndale and Coverdale which became known as Matthew's Bible. He uses "it" in John 1:3-4. The Great Bible followed in 1539 and was a revision of Matthew's Bible. The first edition was prepared by Miles Coverdale. For some reason Coverdale decided "it" was more correct than "him" which appeared in his 1535 version based on the Latin Vulgate and left John 1:3-4 as it was in Matthew's translation, "it" instead of "him." The Great Bible was the first authorized English version and was ordered to be placed in every church. Under Queen Mary the printing of the English Bible ended and its use in the churches was forbidden. This gave rise to a version completed in Geneva. The Geneva Bible of 1560 was the first Bible to have numbered verses, each set off as a separate paragraph. This Bible became the "household Bible of the English-speaking nations." It held that position for about 75 years. It was Shakespeare's Bible and that of the Puritans who settled New England. Once again, the translation of John 1:3-4 follows Tyndale's example, "it" instead of "him." Queen Elizabeth eventually reinstated the order that a copy of the Bible be placed in every church and she encouraged its reading. Since there were not enough copies of the Great Bible, the bishops themselves made a new revision known as the Bishop's Bible. It was published in 1568. It was used mostly by the clergy, not being very popular with the common people. It, too, renders John 1:3-4 using "it," not "him." In 1582, the Roman Catholic version of the New Testament was completed and known as the Rheims New Testament. It was the result of a battle between Papists and Protestants, the former believing the Latin Vulgate to be the standard upon which all translations should be made. It was the work of Roman Catholic scholars based on the Latin. They chose to render John 1:3-4 using "him" as did the previous versions based on the Vulgate. From that point on, all future versions, beginning with the King James version of 1611, used "him" instead of "it" in their translation of John 1:3-4. As you can see, the following translation of John 1:3-4 is not without historic and linguistic foundation; "All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men." " STRONGS NT 846: αὐτός
αὐτός, αὐτῇ, αὐτό, pronoun ("derived from the particle αὖ with the added force of a demonstrative pronoun. In itself it signifies nothing more than again, applied to what has either been previously mentioned or, when the whole discourse is looked at, must necessarily be supplied." Klotz ad Devar. ii., p. 219; (see Vanicek, p. 268)). It is used by the Biblical writings both of the O. T. and of the N. T. far more frequently than the other pronouns; and in this very frequent and almost inordinate use of it, they deviate greatly from secular authors; cf. Buttmann, § 127, 9. (On classic usage cf. Hermann, Opuscc. i. 308ff, of which dissertation a summary is given in his edition of Viger, pp. 732-736.)
846. autos 847 >>
autos: (1) self (emphatic) (2) he, she, it (used for the third pers. pron.) (3) the same Original Word: αὐτός, αὐτή, αὐτό Part of Speech: Personal Pronoun Transliteration: autos Phonetic Spelling: (ow-tos') Short Definition: he, she, it, they, them, same Definition: he, she, it, they, them, same.
Word Origin an intensive pronoun, a prim. word Definition (1) self (emphatic) (2) he, she, it (used for the third pers. pron.) (3) the same
concordances.org/greek/846.htm
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Post by findingtruth on Mar 25, 2012 21:23:20 GMT -5
What problem is it that the doctrine of the trinity solves? Okay, I may be just intellectually challenged here. (Thank God - perhaps.) My question would kinda.... be the same as Gene's. When you get up in the morning and are brushing your teeth and looking at yourself in the mirror - what difference does it make? Really? How does it make a difference in your life? How does it impact the way you treat your dog? your family? the people in traffic? the people at work? the clerk in the grocery store? How does it add or take away from your feelings of peace and of contentment and trust in life? How does it add or take away from YOUR contribution to this world? ReallY? This is what I would like to see explained in real and concrete terms instead of this interminable wrangling. Sharon, IMO this is the most sensible comment made on this thread. This fruitless debate reminds me of the story of 2 little boys eating pudding with "spoons"( ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) ). Their conversation went as follows (referring to the utensil they were eating with): "This is a poon". "No it's a foon". "No it's a poon". "NO IT'S NOT, IT'S A FOON!" "NOOO, A POON!!!" and on and on and on....... So my question is...who has enough insight to know the TRUTH? Or are they simply influenced by the comments and opinions of others around them that are most powerful? Scripture is not always crystal clear about things so mankind is left with a lot of speculation. And it seems that the about the "trinity" (whatever that means) is not bringing much peace to those who are arguing about it.
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Post by JO on Mar 25, 2012 21:47:04 GMT -5
Is anyone doubting the importance of this doctrine?
Hear what the experts say:
==========================================
"In order to enter into the fellowship of christian believers, one must accept Trinitarian theology."
"The next important points that we must believe, in order to be saved, are: We must believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, and we must believe in the doctrine of the divinity of Christ"
"Do you have to believe in the Trinity to become a christian? I would answer yes. If you don't believe in the Trinity, then you don't understand who God is"
"Deny the Trinity and you deny any hope whatsoever of any redemption for your sin"
"The Trinity, then, becomes a test to see if someone is in the faith."
"I believe that those who openly reject it (the trinity) are not of God."
"A non-regenerate person, or a cultist, will deny one or more of these essentials."
"So I challenge you, do you believe Jesus is God in flesh, worthy of the same honor as the Father, the creator of all, the risen Lord? If you cannot say yes, then I suggest to you that you are not a christian."
"To deny the Trinity is to deny the true God. To deny that Jesus is God in flesh is to deny the true Christ."
"To be known as a Christian today, it is expected that a person profess belief in the trinity. In fact, some organizations insist on it and some even go so far as to require it."
"To reject the Trinity is to reject the unique God of the Bible."
"One of the characteristics of a cult is the denial of the Trinity, along with the denial of the divinity of Jesus"
"Belief in the Trinity is necessary for salvation."
"How can anyone claim to be christian who denies the Trinity?"
"Whoever denies the Trinity must also deny the New Testament"
"To reject the Trinity is to reject God Almighty"
"Any Church or group which does not believe in the Trinity is not christian."
"if you deny the Trinity, you'll lose your soul"
"All christians believe the doctrine of the Trinity. If you do not believe this--that is, if you have come to a settled conclusion that the doctrine of the Trinity is not true--you are not a christian at all. You are in fact a heretic."
"if you deny this doctrine in your heart, you are not a christian at all."
"To reject the Trinity is to deny the christian faith"
"antitrinitarians are not considered christians"
"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;.....Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.......And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;......He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.......Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.......This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved."
"Heretics are defined as Non-Trinitarians"
"the Trinity must be held in order to be a christian"
"We must believe in the doctrine of the Trinity in order to be saved"
"To deny the mysterious tri-unity of God's nature is to become a pagan"
"rejecting the doctrine of the Trinity is a rejection of Jesus"
"Anyone who knowingly fails to accept or intentionally rejects the doctrine of the Trinity cannot be saved."
"Without belief in the Trinity, we cannot claim to have saving faith in God."
"In order for christian salvation to take place, one must uphold the orthodox teaching on the Trinity"
"The Trinity is a necessary doctrine to embrace in order for anyone to call themself a christian."
"When we talk about the doctrine of the Trinity we are really talking about that which we find impossible to fully comprehend. It's not that I don't think the doctrine of the Trinity is true. I believe it firmly. In fact, anyone who does not believe this doctrine, IS A FALSE BELIEVER."
"A person or church that does not believe and affirm the Trinity is not a christian person or church."
"Those who do not quite yet grasp the Trinity may be welcome within the Church, but those who deny it surely are not welcome."
"To reject the Trinity is to reject God Almighty"
"belief in the Trinity is necessary for one to be a christian."
"Without the reality of the Trinity, there could be no God"
"If you reject the doctrine of the Trinity, you necessarily reject Christ, and there is nothing left of your faith."
"you can't have salvation without our Triune God"
"Those who do not believe in the Trinity and reject the Trinity are not born of God."
"If you do not believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, you believe in a man-made God and you are guilty of the first commandment, you are guilty of the sin of idolatry, and you are lost."
"If a person denies the Trinity then that person is lost, on his way to hell, and is a deceiver and false teacher."
"Apostates will deny the Trinity and that Jesus Christ is God."
"When one denies the Trinity or the deity of Christ one ceases to be christian."
"A cult denies the concept of the Trinity"
"Whoever will be saved must believe in the Trinity."
"You cannot be saved if you deny the teaching that God is 3 distinct Persons in one, divine Being."
"We do know that those who call themselves Christians, but do not accept the Trinity, as biblically revealed and historically authenticated, are not Christians�whether they think they are or not."
"Whoever denies the teaching of the Trinity "without a doubt he will perish eternally."
"Not only blatant deniers of the Triune God are condemned, so are popular deniers"
"Whoever will be saved cannot deny the Trinity blatantly, popularly, or even casually."
"false teachers deny the Trinity"
"In these last days satan's false teachers have been attacking the Trinity"
"All people who deny the Trinity are false teachers and they are lost and heading for a lost eternity in hell."
"All those who deny the Trinity are not saved and are hellbound sinners."
"The doctrine of the Trinity is so important that to deny it is to lose ones soul."
"To deny the Trinity puts a person in the world of the cults and false religion."
"All Trinity denying people will find themselves lost and in Hell after death."
"Anti-Trinitarians are apostates and enemies of Christ!"
"If you deny the trinity, you are not christian"
"All true christians are Trinitarians"
"One cannot be a christian and not worship or believe in the Trinity."
"Whoever refuses to acknowledge and confess the holy Trinity as the only true God is outside the kingdom of God and kindling-wood for the fires of hell."
"a person who denies the Trinity has virtually and has assuredly guaranteed themself a place in the eternal lake of fire."
"if you do not believe in the Trinity, you are not Saved. If you fail to believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are One God, you do not believe in the Trinity and are unsaved."
"If you deny the Trinity, you are not Born Again, and as such you can not get into heaven! And since there aint no purgatory, the only place left is the eternal lake of fire."
"If you deny the Trinity, you go to hell. If you teach doctrines that deny the Trinity, you go to hell"
"you should reject as lost those who refuse to believe in the Trinity, or admit that it is not Scriptural."
"Whoever denies the Trinity is an unbeliever and a heretic"
"To deny the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is heresy, and the one who espouses such belief is a heretic"
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Post by StAnne on Mar 25, 2012 22:18:59 GMT -5
Is anyone doubting the importance of this doctrine? Hear what the experts say: ========================================== "In order to enter into the fellowship of christian believers, one must accept Trinitarian theology." "The next important points that we must believe, in order to be saved, are: We must believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, and we must believe in the doctrine of the divinity of Christ" "Do you have to believe in the Trinity to become a christian? I would answer yes. If you don't believe in the Trinity, then you don't understand who God is" "To deny the Trinity is to deny the true God. To deny that Jesus is God in flesh is to deny the true Christ." "To be known as a Christian today, it is expected that a person profess belief in the trinity. In fact, some organizations insist on it and some even go so far as to require it." "One of the characteristics of a cult is the denial of the Trinity, along with the denial of the divinity of Jesus" "Belief in the Trinity is necessary for salvation." But you missed a whole bunch ... lots more where these came from ...
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Post by Happy Feet on Mar 26, 2012 2:46:23 GMT -5
SharonArnold, when people see Jesus as their older brother, and let God conform them to his image, then it makes a huge difference in their lives. I see Jesus as my Lord and Saviour. He didn't become my elder brother by dying on the Cross, He became my Saviour. With regard to your previous post JO, you may have the Holy Spirit dwelling within you as all believers do, but JOs spirit as you were referring to whether a person is a Christian or not, is not the Holy Spirit. In fact, Genesis says that God breathed into Adam and he became a living soul. So do not confuse soul with spirit. The devil is a spirit, but it is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, not some other spirit, is part of the trinity. You give some person or twos ideas that you need to believe in the trinity to be saved. I would say most Christians do not think that salvation is in believing the Trinity but is in the death and Resurrection of our Lord. The Catholics may believe it, but most protestants I know would not, I would hope. Protestants donot believe that Mary remained a virgin all her life as I understand Catholics do, but we believe that she had other children. I notice in the theist poll, the score for the trinity has increased since this debate.
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Post by Happy Feet on Mar 26, 2012 3:44:25 GMT -5
John 1 New International version 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me'. 16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. Other versions say: John 1:18 English Standard Version (ESV) 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
Footnotes: a.John 1:18 Or the only One, who is God; some manuscripts the only Son b.John 1:18 Greek in the bosom of the Father
John 1:18 King James Version (KJV)
18. No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
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Post by JO on Mar 26, 2012 4:08:52 GMT -5
So what now HappyFeet?
Would you silence my pen like your fellow trinitarians have silenced Michael Servetus Villanovanus and a great many others?
=====================================
Shortly after twelve o'clock, a procession started from the town-hall of Geneva-the chief magistrates of the city, the clergy in their robes, the Lieutenant Criminel and other officers on horseback, a guard of mounted archers, the citizens, with a motley crowd of followers, and in their midst, with arms bound, in shabby, dirty clothes, walked a man of middle age, whose intellectual face bore the marks of long suffering. Passing along the rue St. Antoine through the gate of the same name, the cortege took its way towards the Golgotha of the city.
Once outside the walls a superb sight broke on their view: in the distance the blue waters and enchanting shores of Lake Geneva, to the west and north the immense amphitheater of the Jura, with its snow-capped mountains, and to the south and west the lovely valley of the Rhone; but we may well think that few eyes were turned away from the central figure of that sad procession. By his side, in earnest entreaty, walked the aged pastor, Farel, who had devoted a long and useful life to the service of his fellow citizens.
Mounting the hill, the field of Champel was reached, and here on sight eminence was the fateful stake, with dangling chains and heaping bundles of friends. At this sight the poor victim prostrated himself on the ground in prayer. In reply to the exhortation of the clergyman for a specific confession of faith, there was the cry, 'Misericordia, misericordia! Jesu, thou Son of the eternal God, have compassion upon me!'
Bound to the stake by the iron chains, with a chaplet of straw and green twigs covered with sulphur on his head, with long dark face, it is said that he looked like the Christ in whose name he was bound. Around his waist were tied a large bundle of manuscript and a thick octavo printed book.
The torch was applied, and as the flames spread to the straw and sulphur and flashed in his eyes, there was a piercing cry that struck terror into the hearts of the bystanders. The friends were green, the burning was slow, and it was long before in a last agony he cried again, 'Jesu, thou Son of the eternal God, have mercy on me!'
Thus died in his forty-fourth year, Michael Servetus Villanovanus, physician, physiologist, and heretic. Strange, is it not, that could he have cried, 'Jesu, thou Eternal Son of God!' even at this last moment, the chains would have been unwound, the chaplet removed, and the friends scattered; but he remained faithful unto death to what he believed was the Truth as revealed in the Bible."
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Post by Happy Feet on Mar 26, 2012 4:16:33 GMT -5
JO, I said I do not believe that salvation is in the Trinity and nor do I know anyone who does.
I believe that Jesus was Immanuel, God with us, but I do not believe that believing Jesus is God saves. Do you believe that Jesus is Immanuel, God with us?
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Post by sacerdotal on Mar 26, 2012 9:00:36 GMT -5
So what now HappyFeet? Would you silence my pen like your fellow trinitarians have silenced Michael Servetus Villanovanus and a great many others? ===================================== Shortly after twelve o'clock, a procession started from the town-hall of Geneva-the chief magistrates of the city, the clergy in their robes, the Lieutenant Criminel and other officers on horseback, a guard of mounted archers, the citizens, with a motley crowd of followers, and in their midst, with arms bound, in shabby, dirty clothes, walked a man of middle age, whose intellectual face bore the marks of long suffering. Passing along the rue St. Antoine through the gate of the same name, the cortege took its way towards the Golgotha of the city. Once outside the walls a superb sight broke on their view: in the distance the blue waters and enchanting shores of Lake Geneva, to the west and north the immense amphitheater of the Jura, with its snow-capped mountains, and to the south and west the lovely valley of the Rhone; but we may well think that few eyes were turned away from the central figure of that sad procession. By his side, in earnest entreaty, walked the aged pastor, Farel, who had devoted a long and useful life to the service of his fellow citizens. Mounting the hill, the field of Champel was reached, and here on sight eminence was the fateful stake, with dangling chains and heaping bundles of friends. At this sight the poor victim prostrated himself on the ground in prayer. In reply to the exhortation of the clergyman for a specific confession of faith, there was the cry, 'Misericordia, misericordia! Jesu, thou Son of the eternal God, have compassion upon me!' Bound to the stake by the iron chains, with a chaplet of straw and green twigs covered with sulphur on his head, with long dark face, it is said that he looked like the Christ in whose name he was bound. Around his waist were tied a large bundle of manuscript and a thick octavo printed book. The torch was applied, and as the flames spread to the straw and sulphur and flashed in his eyes, there was a piercing cry that struck terror into the hearts of the bystanders. The friends were green, the burning was slow, and it was long before in a last agony he cried again, 'Jesu, thou Son of the eternal God, have mercy on me!' Thus died in his forty-fourth year, Michael Servetus Villanovanus, physician, physiologist, and heretic. Strange, is it not, that could he have cried, 'Jesu, thou Eternal Son of God!' even at this last moment, the chains would have been unwound, the chaplet removed, and the friends scattered; but he remained faithful unto death to what he believed was the Truth as revealed in the Bible." Thanks, JO and Clearday for stating my viewpoint so well. I see no reason to believe in the Trinity. I see the so-called Trinity as a way to beat up other religions as cults as the Catholic church has done for centuries. I also have the same issue with the workers who claim that those that do not believe as they do "do not have a clear understanding."
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Post by StAnne on Mar 26, 2012 9:21:16 GMT -5
So what now HappyFeet? Would you silence my pen like your fellow trinitarians have silenced Michael Servetus Villanovanus and a great many others? ===================================== Shortly after twelve o'clock, a procession started from the town-hall of Geneva-the chief magistrates of the city, the clergy in their robes, the Lieutenant Criminel and other officers on horseback, a guard of mounted archers, the citizens, with a motley crowd of followers, and in their midst, with arms bound, in shabby, dirty clothes, walked a man of middle age, whose intellectual face bore the marks of long suffering. Passing along the rue St. Antoine through the gate of the same name, the cortege took its way towards the Golgotha of the city. Once outside the walls a superb sight broke on their view: in the distance the blue waters and enchanting shores of Lake Geneva, to the west and north the immense amphitheater of the Jura, with its snow-capped mountains, and to the south and west the lovely valley of the Rhone; but we may well think that few eyes were turned away from the central figure of that sad procession. By his side, in earnest entreaty, walked the aged pastor, Farel, who had devoted a long and useful life to the service of his fellow citizens. Mounting the hill, the field of Champel was reached, and here on sight eminence was the fateful stake, with dangling chains and heaping bundles of friends. At this sight the poor victim prostrated himself on the ground in prayer. In reply to the exhortation of the clergyman for a specific confession of faith, there was the cry, 'Misericordia, misericordia! Jesu, thou Son of the eternal God, have compassion upon me!' Bound to the stake by the iron chains, with a chaplet of straw and green twigs covered with sulphur on his head, with long dark face, it is said that he looked like the Christ in whose name he was bound. Around his waist were tied a large bundle of manuscript and a thick octavo printed book. The torch was applied, and as the flames spread to the straw and sulphur and flashed in his eyes, there was a piercing cry that struck terror into the hearts of the bystanders. The friends were green, the burning was slow, and it was long before in a last agony he cried again, 'Jesu, thou Son of the eternal God, have mercy on me!' Thus died in his forty-fourth year, Michael Servetus Villanovanus, physician, physiologist, and heretic. Strange, is it not, that could he have cried, 'Jesu, thou Eternal Son of God!' even at this last moment, the chains would have been unwound, the chaplet removed, and the friends scattered; but he remained faithful unto death to what he believed was the Truth as revealed in the Bible." Thanks, JO and Clearday for stating my viewpoint so well. I see no reason to believe in the Trinity. I see the so-called Trinity as a way to beat up other religions as cults as the Catholic church has done for centuries. I also have the same issue with the workers who claim that those that do not believe as they do "do not have a clear understanding." Since you have quoted JO's Servatus quote, is it safe to assume that you are knee-jerk blaming the Catholic Church for the death of Michael Servetus Villanovanus? FYI ... I believe it is Calvin that you may need to be citing. In 1553 Michael de Villeneuve published as "Servetus" yet another religious work with further anti-trinitarian views. It was entitled Christianismi Restitutio, a work that sharply rejected the idea of predestination and the idea that God condemned souls to Hell regardless of worth or merit. God, insisted Servetus, condemns no one who does not condemn himself through thought, word or deed. To Calvin, who had written his summary of Christian doctrine Institutes of the Christian Religion, Servetus' latest book was an attack on his personally held theories regarding Christian belief, theories that he was attempting to put forth as "established Christian doctrine". Calvin sent a copy of his own book as his reply. Servetus promptly returned it, thoroughly annotated with critical observations. Calvin wrote to Servetus, "I neither hate you nor despise you; nor do I wish to persecute you; but I would be as hard as iron when I behold you insulting sound doctrine with so great audacity." In time their correspondences grew more heated until Calvin ended it.[14] Servetus sent Calvin several more letters, to which Calvin took offense.[15] Thus, Calvin's antagonism against Servetus seems to have been based not simply on his views but also on Servetus's tone, which he considered inappropriate. Calvin revealed the intentions of his offended heart when he stated of Servetus, when writing to his friend William Farel on 13 February 1546: “ Servetus has just sent me a long volume of his ravings. If I consent he will come here, but I will not give my word; for if he comes here, if my authority is worth anything, I will never permit him to depart alive ("Si venerit, modo valeat mea autoritas, vivum exire nunquam patiar").[16] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Servetus
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Post by sharonw on Mar 26, 2012 9:56:26 GMT -5
I've had cousins who are Pentecostal and they're pretty much the same as 2x2's in that the "appearance of godliness" is a primary consideration and thus also "seek" to be like Jesus...thus signifying that Jesus is only human. This is the accusation you level against 2x2s Sharon. God is looking for people who are willing for him to conform them to the image of his only begotten son. Be careful that you don't join with those who deny that Jesus came in the flesh. Do you want to be conformed to the image of God's son? Do you want fellowship with Jesus as your elder brother? ============================================ Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. As Paul wrote about what we the people on earth will be like when we are gathered to Jesus', He said we don't KNOW what we'll be but we do know that we'll be LIKE JESUS for "We will know Him." That seems to be the where and when we are to be "like Him"...there's no way on this old earth that we can be "like Jesus" completely...I think to feel that we can be exactly like Jesus is demoting Him further then He was demoted by leaving His glory on High and came down as the Word and took flesh upon Himself...being made lower then the angels. He was without sin, though He had been tempted...BUT I don't know of any "human person" who is "without sin" or will ever be without "sin" without being a repentant person who is bathed in the blood of Jesus BEFORE God looks upon them with favor or grace. JO, the "conforming" comes through being repentant and being baptized in water AND blood and by fire....this comes when we leave this old earthly clay. Or maybe to say that is our destination. God "predestined" that ALL people who would come to eternal life that it would have to be "through Jesus", God's only begotten Son. There is NO way on this earth that any other man or human can be like Jesus, but it doesn't hurt to look to Him to know how to be in this life. And what God wants of us and what Jesus wants of us is found in the first two commandments....to love the Lord our God with ALL our hearts, minds, souls and strength. AND to love our brothers/sisters as ourselves..... We cannot be like Jesus for "No man can redeem his brother." This is the beginning of who Jesus is...He is the Creator of all things, for by Him and for Him all things were created. We are not the Creator and we are only "loaned" these things on earth for our use, we will never be any more then "stewards" of these things that the Creator has made and FOR WHOM all things are made. The predestination is THROUGH Christ and that ALL that enter into eternal life MUST come to eternity THROUGH Christ.....we don't earn it by "being like the earthly Jesus." We might earn rewards for our deeds, but that does NOT earn us life eternal....Jesus told us that those who believe on him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Again to look at this "predestination" like God has chosen you or He has chosen me because of our efforts to be like Jesus is NOT what that means, JO...predestination means "through Christ" for everyone that wants to know eternal life...we MUST be baptized by water and blood and by fire.
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Post by sharonw on Mar 26, 2012 10:11:25 GMT -5
What problem is it that the doctrine of the trinity solves? Okay, I may be just intellectually challenged here. (Thank God - perhaps.) My question would kinda.... be the same as Gene's. When you get up in the morning and are brushing your teeth and looking at yourself in the mirror - what difference does it make? Really? How does it make a difference in your life? How does it impact the way you treat your dog? your family? the people in traffic? the people at work? the clerk in the grocery store? How does it add or take away from your feelings of peace and of contentment and trust in life? How does it add or take away from YOUR contribution to this world? ReallY? This is what I would like to see explained in real and concrete terms instead of this interminable wrangling. SharonA...I'll try to explain in personal and real ways that are MY experience in this "wrangling" about the Trinity. When I first came to TMB several years ago, there was this "wrangling" about the Trinity by some, seems Nathan was writing more then others at that time or that was who I read the most, but did get some of my pre-understanding from some of Stanne's writings or sharing of the catholic beliefs on it...though I NEVER have read any of the creeds or decrees by the Catholic antecedents...NEVER! Most came from Nathan or at least he put the thoughts there and I became greatly troubled because I could not understand what Nathan was speaking about. I'd never heard anything like it before, but I had to admit that I'd had notice all of my life that there were some verses in the bible that workers and friends alike just passed right over even IF they had read them alooud to their audience or we had to study those verses in our Wed. nite studies. It was like "sroom" flying across those verses...like one here and another a bit further along and another a bit further along and doing "piecemeal" studying. So in my troubled mind I took to praying about it, for I couldn't see any more then JO the profitability about it...for I'd been pretty well taught that Jesus was a sinless man and that we COULD make ourselves just like Him. So in my prayer I assigned this to God and said to God "God, please, IF YOU see that understanding the trinity concept is beneficial to me and my spiritual life and my acquaintance with my Lord and Saviour....please reveal it to me. Then I just consigned it to God that way....it took several weeks or a couple months later, I don't remember...but it was long enough that I'd begin to feel it wasn't within God's will that I understand it. But late one night while I was prayer, it seemed that every thought I had in my head had suddenly got turned off...I was no more thinking about the trinity concept at all...in fact I was actually worried over some family health and their care issues. But the real meaning of the trinity concept just seemed to fly right into the middle of all these other concerns and some of the scriptures that Nathan had quoted came with those thoughts and I begin to see just how Divine my Saviour was and always will be....John 1 was the major scriptures that dawned on me, what John had written and I believe John's version as he was Jesus' beloved Apostle...John as Jesus' best friend was privy to so much more that involves Jesus then the other Apostles...though I think in time they learned these things as well. What has this done for me? I cannot explain of the increase in my heart and mind and soul of the meaning of Jesus Christ to myself and my soul's welfare and my spirit's worshipping him....but Jesus has become so very much more precious to me for I've begun to understand just what it cost Jesus to come to the earth and take on mortal flesh....and that love DID lead him all the way to Calvary. I do not know of any other human flesh that has love like that. It is love from heaven, is all I can say. Sure, I'd like to be as loving as Jesus was, but I know my human flesh just will never get to that level of love...but I pray when I'm transformed to the kind of body He has, that my spirit will be like His as well...but I also know that I won't accomplish all of that in this life...but it also helps me as to where my hearts' treasures are...they are with our risen Saviour...our great God and Saviour. Does that help?
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Post by sharonw on Mar 26, 2012 10:18:56 GMT -5
Ummmm… JO, I have respect for you, for how you show up on this board… but you are shifting from the real to the unreal for me now. There are people who say that they realized that Jesus is God and that has made all the difference in their lives. Comment? (I’m in the middle of watching an old Audrey Hepburn Parisian movie.) How? Are these not just thoughts? (Any human being thinks between 12000 – 60000 thoughts per day.) What is sacred about a thought? Are beliefs not thoughts you keep thinking? The only thing that impresses me is how this makes a CONCRETE difference in your life. <<But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.>> It solves some big problems. If you believe in the Trinity, you are going to heaven. If you don't believe in the Trinity, you are going elsewhere. Believe in the Trinity, an eternal problem solved. Also, if you believe in the Trinity, you know who are true believers. You don't want to go through life not knowing who are your brothers who are going to heaven with you. Since you don't know any other way to distinguish them from people in other religions and especially those in your own religion who are fake Christians, then another problem is solved. If you believe in the Trinity, you can claim a special revelation from God. This gives you a superior leg up on all others who don't pretend to understand it or see the fallacy of it. So if you are feeling inferior to other believers, this solves that problem because it moves you right up there. If you fear rejection from the Christian community, claim your belief in the Trinity, and your fears will be solved since it is the primary belief of the majority of Christians. I hope that helps you believe in the Trinity. CD, IF any of us do NOT believe in Jesus Christ and that His sacrifice on the cross REDEEMS us, then none of will go to heaven regardless if we believe in the trinity or not. That much is explicit in the NT scriptures. It is a matter of faith that saves a person and who or what that faith is in. Does the bible not say that Jesus wonders if He will find "faith" on the earth when He returns. Does that not tell us that "faith" is vital to our salvation. It is who and what we have "faith" in that makes the difference as to salvation...but I can assure anyone that all our best deeds are as filthy rags and they won't win us salvation. The bible even says that doesn't it? There's only one way and as JO speaks about Predestination...the predestination is that ALL mankind has to come through the blood sacrifice of Jesus unto eternal life. And that will take a whole lot of 'faith' to do that....Jesus spoke to His own Apostles, "O ye of little faith." And yes, faith is a gift from God, but I feel that that gift can be increased by a willing heart to ask God for an increase in their faith and it will come to us in measures as the Holy Spirit comes to us.
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Post by sharonw on Mar 26, 2012 10:26:19 GMT -5
Is anyone doubting the importance of this doctrine? Hear what the experts say: ========================================== "In order to enter into the fellowship of christian believers, one must accept Trinitarian theology." "The next important points that we must believe, in order to be saved, are: We must believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, and we must believe in the doctrine of the divinity of Christ" "Do you have to believe in the Trinity to become a christian? I would answer yes. If you don't believe in the Trinity, then you don't understand who God is" "Deny the Trinity and you deny any hope whatsoever of any redemption for your sin" "The Trinity, then, becomes a test to see if someone is in the faith." "I believe that those who openly reject it (the trinity) are not of God." "A non-regenerate person, or a cultist, will deny one or more of these essentials." "So I challenge you, do you believe Jesus is God in flesh, worthy of the same honor as the Father, the creator of all, the risen Lord? If you cannot say yes, then I suggest to you that you are not a christian." "To deny the Trinity is to deny the true God. To deny that Jesus is God in flesh is to deny the true Christ." "To be known as a Christian today, it is expected that a person profess belief in the trinity. In fact, some organizations insist on it and some even go so far as to require it." "To reject the Trinity is to reject the unique God of the Bible." "One of the characteristics of a cult is the denial of the Trinity, along with the denial of the divinity of Jesus" "Belief in the Trinity is necessary for salvation." "How can anyone claim to be christian who denies the Trinity?" "Whoever denies the Trinity must also deny the New Testament" "To reject the Trinity is to reject God Almighty" "Any Church or group which does not believe in the Trinity is not christian." "if you deny the Trinity, you'll lose your soul" "All christians believe the doctrine of the Trinity. If you do not believe this--that is, if you have come to a settled conclusion that the doctrine of the Trinity is not true--you are not a christian at all. You are in fact a heretic." "if you deny this doctrine in your heart, you are not a christian at all." "To reject the Trinity is to deny the christian faith" "antitrinitarians are not considered christians" "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;.....Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.......And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;......He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.......Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.......This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved." "Heretics are defined as Non-Trinitarians" "the Trinity must be held in order to be a christian" "We must believe in the doctrine of the Trinity in order to be saved" "To deny the mysterious tri-unity of God's nature is to become a pagan" "rejecting the doctrine of the Trinity is a rejection of Jesus" "Anyone who knowingly fails to accept or intentionally rejects the doctrine of the Trinity cannot be saved." "Without belief in the Trinity, we cannot claim to have saving faith in God." "In order for christian salvation to take place, one must uphold the orthodox teaching on the Trinity" "The Trinity is a necessary doctrine to embrace in order for anyone to call themself a christian." "When we talk about the doctrine of the Trinity we are really talking about that which we find impossible to fully comprehend. It's not that I don't think the doctrine of the Trinity is true. I believe it firmly. In fact, anyone who does not believe this doctrine, IS A FALSE BELIEVER." "A person or church that does not believe and affirm the Trinity is not a christian person or church." "Those who do not quite yet grasp the Trinity may be welcome within the Church, but those who deny it surely are not welcome." "To reject the Trinity is to reject God Almighty" "belief in the Trinity is necessary for one to be a christian." "Without the reality of the Trinity, there could be no God" "If you reject the doctrine of the Trinity, you necessarily reject Christ, and there is nothing left of your faith." "you can't have salvation without our Triune God" "Those who do not believe in the Trinity and reject the Trinity are not born of God." "If you do not believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, you believe in a man-made God and you are guilty of the first commandment, you are guilty of the sin of idolatry, and you are lost." "If a person denies the Trinity then that person is lost, on his way to hell, and is a deceiver and false teacher." "Apostates will deny the Trinity and that Jesus Christ is God." "When one denies the Trinity or the deity of Christ one ceases to be christian." "A cult denies the concept of the Trinity" "Whoever will be saved must believe in the Trinity." "You cannot be saved if you deny the teaching that God is 3 distinct Persons in one, divine Being." "We do know that those who call themselves Christians, but do not accept the Trinity, as biblically revealed and historically authenticated, are not Christians�whether they think they are or not." "Whoever denies the teaching of the Trinity "without a doubt he will perish eternally." "Not only blatant deniers of the Triune God are condemned, so are popular deniers" "Whoever will be saved cannot deny the Trinity blatantly, popularly, or even casually." "false teachers deny the Trinity" "In these last days satan's false teachers have been attacking the Trinity" "All people who deny the Trinity are false teachers and they are lost and heading for a lost eternity in hell." "All those who deny the Trinity are not saved and are hellbound sinners." "The doctrine of the Trinity is so important that to deny it is to lose ones soul." "To deny the Trinity puts a person in the world of the cults and false religion." "All Trinity denying people will find themselves lost and in Hell after death." "Anti-Trinitarians are apostates and enemies of Christ!" "If you deny the trinity, you are not christian" "All true christians are Trinitarians" "One cannot be a christian and not worship or believe in the Trinity." "Whoever refuses to acknowledge and confess the holy Trinity as the only true God is outside the kingdom of God and kindling-wood for the fires of hell." "a person who denies the Trinity has virtually and has assuredly guaranteed themself a place in the eternal lake of fire." "if you do not believe in the Trinity, you are not Saved. If you fail to believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are One God, you do not believe in the Trinity and are unsaved." "If you deny the Trinity, you are not Born Again, and as such you can not get into heaven! And since there aint no purgatory, the only place left is the eternal lake of fire." "If you deny the Trinity, you go to hell. If you teach doctrines that deny the Trinity, you go to hell" "you should reject as lost those who refuse to believe in the Trinity, or admit that it is not Scriptural." "Whoever denies the Trinity is an unbeliever and a heretic" "To deny the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is heresy, and the one who espouses such belief is a heretic" JO, a bit of sisterly advice here...IF you've read all of this rejection in subject to the Trinity and it pitches you off...PLEASE, take your adversity before God and ask Him what He feels is right...and IF HE feels that the concept is important "FOR your own spirit's sake and YOUR intimate relationship with our great God and Saviour" that God will reveal it to you when He sees the capability to do so, within your heart and mind. AND IF He never reveals it, just take it that according to God, it ISN"T necessary for you, though you're striving to please Him. Okay?
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Post by ts on Mar 26, 2012 10:28:18 GMT -5
Is anyone doubting the importance of this doctrine? Hear what the experts say: ========================================== "In order to enter into the fellowship of christian believers, one must accept Trinitarian theology." "The next important points that we must believe, in order to be saved, are: We must believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, and we must believe in the doctrine of the divinity of Christ" "Do you have to believe in the Trinity to become a christian? I would answer yes. If you don't believe in the Trinity, then you don't understand who God is" "Deny the Trinity and you deny any hope whatsoever of any redemption for your sin" "The Trinity, then, becomes a test to see if someone is in the faith." "I believe that those who openly reject it (the trinity) are not of God." "A non-regenerate person, or a cultist, will deny one or more of these essentials." "So I challenge you, do you believe Jesus is God in flesh, worthy of the same honor as the Father, the creator of all, the risen Lord? If you cannot say yes, then I suggest to you that you are not a christian." "To deny the Trinity is to deny the true God. To deny that Jesus is God in flesh is to deny the true Christ." "To be known as a Christian today, it is expected that a person profess belief in the trinity. In fact, some organizations insist on it and some even go so far as to require it." "To reject the Trinity is to reject the unique God of the Bible." "One of the characteristics of a cult is the denial of the Trinity, along with the denial of the divinity of Jesus" "Belief in the Trinity is necessary for salvation." "How can anyone claim to be christian who denies the Trinity?" "Whoever denies the Trinity must also deny the New Testament" "To reject the Trinity is to reject God Almighty" "Any Church or group which does not believe in the Trinity is not christian." "if you deny the Trinity, you'll lose your soul" "All christians believe the doctrine of the Trinity. If you do not believe this--that is, if you have come to a settled conclusion that the doctrine of the Trinity is not true--you are not a christian at all. You are in fact a heretic." "if you deny this doctrine in your heart, you are not a christian at all." "To reject the Trinity is to deny the christian faith" "antitrinitarians are not considered christians" "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;.....Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.......And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;......He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.......Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.......This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved." "Heretics are defined as Non-Trinitarians" "the Trinity must be held in order to be a christian" "We must believe in the doctrine of the Trinity in order to be saved" "To deny the mysterious tri-unity of God's nature is to become a pagan" "rejecting the doctrine of the Trinity is a rejection of Jesus" "Anyone who knowingly fails to accept or intentionally rejects the doctrine of the Trinity cannot be saved." "Without belief in the Trinity, we cannot claim to have saving faith in God." "In order for christian salvation to take place, one must uphold the orthodox teaching on the Trinity" "The Trinity is a necessary doctrine to embrace in order for anyone to call themself a christian." "When we talk about the doctrine of the Trinity we are really talking about that which we find impossible to fully comprehend. It's not that I don't think the doctrine of the Trinity is true. I believe it firmly. In fact, anyone who does not believe this doctrine, IS A FALSE BELIEVER." "A person or church that does not believe and affirm the Trinity is not a christian person or church." "Those who do not quite yet grasp the Trinity may be welcome within the Church, but those who deny it surely are not welcome." "To reject the Trinity is to reject God Almighty" "belief in the Trinity is necessary for one to be a christian." "Without the reality of the Trinity, there could be no God" "If you reject the doctrine of the Trinity, you necessarily reject Christ, and there is nothing left of your faith." "you can't have salvation without our Triune God" "Those who do not believe in the Trinity and reject the Trinity are not born of God." "If you do not believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, you believe in a man-made God and you are guilty of the first commandment, you are guilty of the sin of idolatry, and you are lost." "If a person denies the Trinity then that person is lost, on his way to hell, and is a deceiver and false teacher." "Apostates will deny the Trinity and that Jesus Christ is God." "When one denies the Trinity or the deity of Christ one ceases to be christian." "A cult denies the concept of the Trinity" "Whoever will be saved must believe in the Trinity." "You cannot be saved if you deny the teaching that God is 3 distinct Persons in one, divine Being." "We do know that those who call themselves Christians, but do not accept the Trinity, as biblically revealed and historically authenticated, are not Christians�whether they think they are or not." "Whoever denies the teaching of the Trinity "without a doubt he will perish eternally." "Not only blatant deniers of the Triune God are condemned, so are popular deniers" "Whoever will be saved cannot deny the Trinity blatantly, popularly, or even casually." "false teachers deny the Trinity" "In these last days satan's false teachers have been attacking the Trinity" "All people who deny the Trinity are false teachers and they are lost and heading for a lost eternity in hell." "All those who deny the Trinity are not saved and are hellbound sinners." "The doctrine of the Trinity is so important that to deny it is to lose ones soul." "To deny the Trinity puts a person in the world of the cults and false religion." "All Trinity denying people will find themselves lost and in Hell after death." "Anti-Trinitarians are apostates and enemies of Christ!" "If you deny the trinity, you are not christian" "All true christians are Trinitarians" "One cannot be a christian and not worship or believe in the Trinity." "Whoever refuses to acknowledge and confess the holy Trinity as the only true God is outside the kingdom of God and kindling-wood for the fires of hell." "a person who denies the Trinity has virtually and has assuredly guaranteed themself a place in the eternal lake of fire." "if you do not believe in the Trinity, you are not Saved. If you fail to believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are One God, you do not believe in the Trinity and are unsaved." "If you deny the Trinity, you are not Born Again, and as such you can not get into heaven! And since there aint no purgatory, the only place left is the eternal lake of fire." "If you deny the Trinity, you go to hell. If you teach doctrines that deny the Trinity, you go to hell" "you should reject as lost those who refuse to believe in the Trinity, or admit that it is not Scriptural." "Whoever denies the Trinity is an unbeliever and a heretic" "To deny the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is heresy, and the one who espouses such belief is a heretic" One expert said that to enter the kingdom of Heaven you have to become like a little child. I want to point out again some things about Nathan. I disagree with some of his doctrine, especially the parts about the meetings being the only true religion. I agree with some of his points like the name of Yeshua being changed by pagans. I am sure that I could name many things I agree with and disagree with about Nathan's understanding of doctrine and I am sure that he could do the same with me. NONE of Nathan's very meticulous research has ever convinced me of anything. I do not begrudge him his research or opinions. What I love about Nathan is that he has a child like spirit. It is that spirit that has convinced me that he is a child of God and is my spiritual brother. I am sure that I could say that about others on this board. Just thought I would use Nathan as an example of the trinity doctrine issue. One thing that I really appreciate about Nathan is that he CAN and DOES talk about the 2x2 doctrine in a very clear and unadulterated way. I disagree with him but what he is doing is very honest. Would that the others of the friends and workers were so honest. I believe that if they were honest and open to all the world about their doctrine, they would begin to see how limited the doctrine is and it would change to include the rest of the body of Christ in their beliefs
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