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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2012 15:17:37 GMT -5
“The Chalcedonian formula makes genuine humanity impossible. The conciliar definition says that Jesus is true man. But if there are two natures in him, it is clear which will dominate. And Jesus becomes immediately very different from us…. Jesus is tempted but cannot sin because he is God. What kind of temptation is this? It has little incommon with the kinds of struggles we are familiar with.”
--Roman Catholic theologian Thomas Hart, To Know and Follow Jesus (Paulist Press,1984), 46
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Post by Happy Feet on Mar 24, 2012 15:18:34 GMT -5
Anti Trinitarians such as the Jehovah Witnesses and Christadelphians say the Catholics altered the Bible in favor of the Trinity. Did the Catholics translate the Bible? We know the Jehovah Witnesses made their own Bible and left out everything to do with Jesus being God. Who is the one that changed the Bible? Maybe we should throw out the KJ and get the JW Bible if we don't agree with the Bible verses that relate to Jesus being God.
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Post by JO on Mar 24, 2012 15:19:34 GMT -5
The above quote says, God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:16)Jesus died (Matthew 27:50). So you don't believe Jesus is immortal? Jesus is immortal but the quote above says he is not. He is not dead, he is alive and sitting at the right hand of the Father. etc, etc,,,,,, Do you believe Jesus died on the cross? An immortal being by definition cannot die. If you believe Jesus was immortal, then it seems you're denying that Jesus came in the flesh. 1 John 4:2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2012 15:20:23 GMT -5
“[There are] shortcomings that many theologians find today in the Chalcedonian model... 1.Divine nature and human nature cannot be set side by side and numbered as if they were similar quantities. 2.The Chalcedonian formula makes a genuine humanity impossible. [This difficulty] flows from the divinity overshadowing the humanity and from Jesusnot having a human personal center… 3.The Chalcedonian formula has a meager basis in Scripture. The Council calls Jesus true God. The New Testament shies away from calling Jesus God.”
--Roman Catholic theologian Thomas Hart, To Know and Follow Jesus, 44-48
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Post by Happy Feet on Mar 24, 2012 15:21:36 GMT -5
HF, trinitarians in this thread commend the Pharisees for their perception. They were a very questionable group; their perception was not always so commendable: Matt 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.” We are not talking about driving out demons. As you are referring to when the pharisees said only God can forgive sin, when Jesus said your sins are forgiven. Who do you therefore, believe forgives sins? Do the workers forgive your sins or does God alone forgive sin?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2012 15:27:52 GMT -5
“Lyonnet, L’Annonciation [“L’Annonciation et la Mariologie Biblique,” Maria in SacraScriptura , 4:61.] points out that this [the fact that the synoptic gospels make no mention of the idea of Christ’s preexistence] has embarrassed many orthodox theologians, since in preexistence Christology a conception by the Holy Spirit in Mary’s womb does not bring about the existence of God’s Son. Luke is seemingly unaware of such a Christology;conception is casually related to divine sonship for him.”
--Brown,The Birth of the Messiah, 291
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2012 15:31:58 GMT -5
“Theologically considered, the Trinity grew out of a syncretism of Judaism and Christianity with Hellenism and a resulting combination of Jewish and Christian monotheism with Hellenistic monism… What the theologian thus discovers poses a question to theology about the legitimacy of such a construct. When it is clear – and there is no way around this -that Jesus himself knew only the God of Israel, whom he called Father, and knew nothing abut his own later ‘being made God,’ what right have we to call the doctrine of the Trinity normative and binding on Christians?... However we interpret the various stages of the development of the Trinity, it is clear that this doctrine,which became ‘dogma’ in the East and West has no biblical basis and cannot be traced continuously back to the New Testament…
Gradually, theology must face the facts.”
--Karl-Heinz Ohlig (German scholar), Ein Gott in drei Personen? Vom Vater zum “Myserium” der Trinitat Mainz: Matthias Grunewald-Verlag, 1999, 123-125, (translated from German)
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Post by Happy Feet on Mar 24, 2012 15:32:41 GMT -5
The above quote says, God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:16)Jesus died (Matthew 27:50). So you don't believe Jesus is immortal? Jesus is immortal but the quote above says he is not. He is not dead, he is alive and sitting at the right hand of the Father. etc, etc,,,,,, Do you believe Jesus died on the cross? An immortal being by definition cannot die. If you believe Jesus was immortal, then it seems you're denying that Jesus came in the flesh. 1 John 4:2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, Of course, I believe that Jesus came in the flesh, but I believe he is not still. in the grave. If we die then our body is still in the grave. Jesus body is not. He is immortal. So to you, Jesus died and that was the end. Do you not believe in the Resurrection of Jesus? Do you not believe he appeared to the disciples after the crucifixion. You do not believe he came alive again after 3 days? If he is still dead where is his body then? Do you not believe that the tomb was empty when Mary went and found he was not there? If we die, our bones and body is still in the ground, Jesus was not. So you do not believe Jesus is immortal? Jesus earthly body died but He lives.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2012 15:37:56 GMT -5
Anti Trinitarians such as the Jehovah Witnesses and Christadelphians say the Catholics altered the Bible in favor of the Trinity. Did the Catholics translate the Bible? We know the Jehovah Witnesses made their own Bible and left out everything to do with Jesus being God. Who is the one that changed the Bible? Maybe we should throw out the KJ and get the JW Bible if we don't agree with the Bible verses that relate to Jesus being God. The Catholics did alter the bible to skew the argument in favour of the Trinity. That's not the JW's idea or the Christadelphians' idea, it is commonly known and understood by the vast majority of biblical scholars of all stripes. The Johanine Comma is incontrovertible proof of fudging the books by Catholics. No modern versions have included it.
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Post by Happy Feet on Mar 24, 2012 15:38:27 GMT -5
“Lyonnet, L’Annonciation [“L’Annonciation et la Mariologie Biblique,” Maria in SacraScriptura , 4:61.] points out that this [the fact that the synoptic gospels make no mention of the idea of Christ’s preexistence] has embarrassed many orthodox theologians, since in preexistence Christology a conception by the Holy Spirit in Mary’s womb does not bring about the existence of God’s Son. Luke is seemingly unaware of such a Christology;conception is casually related to divine sonship for him.” --Brown,The Birth of the Messiah, 291 So you are now quoting those who do not believe Jesus existed prior to his birth on earth. Jesus was not divine and did not pre exist before coming to earth?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2012 16:06:51 GMT -5
“Lyonnet, L’Annonciation [“L’Annonciation et la Mariologie Biblique,” Maria in SacraScriptura , 4:61.] points out that this [the fact that the synoptic gospels make no mention of the idea of Christ’s preexistence] has embarrassed many orthodox theologians, since in preexistence Christology a conception by the Holy Spirit in Mary’s womb does not bring about the existence of God’s Son. Luke is seemingly unaware of such a Christology;conception is casually related to divine sonship for him.” --Brown,The Birth of the Messiah, 291 So you are now quoting those who do not believe Jesus existed prior to his birth on earth. Jesus was not divine and did not pre exist before coming to earth? The above quote simply states the fact that the synoptics do not mention the pre-existence of Christ. Are you saying the above quote is wrong?
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Post by sharonw on Mar 24, 2012 18:15:13 GMT -5
Sorry StAnne. It seems it was Sharon who claimed only God can forgive sins. Yes, Jesus even explained that.... Jhn 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. Also this power: Mat 9:3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This [man] blasphemeth. Oh, oh. Now the Pharisees are finding that Jesus is taking God's power to do himself. That is blasphemy. Mat 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? Mat 9:5 For whether is easier, to say, [Thy] sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. Another place describes that the people thought only God could forgive sins. Mar 2:7 Why doth this [man] thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? Folks, are we not missing some important messages out of the gospels here? Why have we not noted that Jesus did what ONLY God could do? I did NOT say it...I QUOTED IT! Start looking at the left hand of writing, JO and YOU will see that it has bible chapter and verse....that way you should know it is not what I or Stanne or Nathan HAVE SAID, it is what we QUOTED! You're either too dumb to catch all of this or you are as wily as a serpent and seeking to twist things around. I don't blame Stanne from getting enough with you!
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Post by JO on Mar 24, 2012 18:19:36 GMT -5
When Jesus was tempted by the devil he said to the devil - thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. So Jesus is calling himself God here because Jesus was being tempted. Matthew 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. So why did Jesus quote scripture about MAN not living on beard alone? So Jesus was answered, “It is written: ‘ Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” ========================================= Matthew 4:1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.” 4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” 5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “‘He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’” 7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’” 8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.” 10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”
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Post by sharonw on Mar 24, 2012 18:29:53 GMT -5
HF, trinitarians in this thread commend the Pharisees for their perception. They were a very questionable group; their perception was not always so commendable: Matt 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.” I'm not commendint the Pharisees, JO but I'm telling it like it really was for Pilate even knew that "for jealousy" that the priests and the Pharisees sought to kill Jesus. I think the Pharisees were speaking such awful things to hurt Jesus and scare the people who were following Him....they had gone out and colaborated together in how they might discredit Jesus to all that were there. Mat 12:14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him. Mat 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: Mat 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? Mat 12:27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast [them] out? therefore they shall be your judges. Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. All of this Pharisee and Jesus exchange was all about the Pharisees wanting to discredit Jesus...they understood what He was saying alright...but didn't agree and their fears and their jealousies caused them to talk within themselves and come up with a way to discredit Jesus so Jesus' followers would quit following Him and come back to be Pharisees.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2012 20:23:42 GMT -5
“The Chalcedonian formula makes genuine humanity impossible. The conciliar definition says that Jesus is true man. But if there are two natures in him, it is clear which will dominate. And Jesus becomes immediately very different from us…. Jesus is tempted but cannot sin because he is God. What kind of temptation is this? It has little incommon with the kinds of struggles we are familiar with.” --Roman Catholic theologian Thomas Hart, To Know and Follow Jesus (Paulist Press,1984), 46 thanks for all you've posted. It's good to see someone on the RCC side pointing out the obvious.
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Post by kencoolidge on Mar 24, 2012 20:36:16 GMT -5
All the references that have been posted against the Trinity on the last couple of pages on this thread, all link back to Jehovah Witness or Christadelphian websites. I don't know if the writers belong to these groups but these anti trinitarian groups are very questionable groups who claim that they (their group) is the truth. One author was Catholic but we can question that if he does not believe in Catholic teaching. I have looked up Sir Anthony F. Buzzard and Charles F. Hunting, The Doctrine of the Trinity:Christianity’s Self-Inflicted Wound (Oxford: International Scholars Publications, 1998),292, 293 quoted by clearday in post 307 of this thread and this links to the Christadelphian website. If these churches are endorsing these doctrines then I would question if this teaching is lead by the spirit. Ken, you left little HF off your list. I am debating on this thread too HfF I corrected my oversight sorry. I really do appreciate your post ken
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Post by Happy Feet on Mar 24, 2012 21:07:11 GMT -5
JO, it was obvious that although the devil tried to tempt Jesus, he was not tempted. The devil tried to tempt him, Jesus was tempted in all manner the same as us, but was not at any point tempted (to give into the temptation). If someone tries to tempt us, we often say we are not tempted.
You said that Jesus was not calling himself God but that he was referring to God the Father while at the same time you are saying God cannot be tempted? Jesus said you cannot tempt the Lord your God. 1. Was Jesus talking about himself being the Lord your God? In which case he was saying he was God. (The Bible says that Lord is Jesus. No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit).
2. Was Jesus talking about His Father when he said thou cannot tempt the Lord your God. If this later then God was tempted.
Either Jesus was talking about himself or His Father.
One says, Jesus was calling himself God, while JO is saying that Jesus cannot be God because Jesus was tempted and God cannot be tempted, and saying Jesus was referring to his Father while at the same time saying God cannot be tempted.
It is either, Jesus was tempted and calls himself God, or God the Father was tempted in spite of the Bible saying God cannot be tempted.
If you say that Jesus cannot be God because he was tempted then you have to also say that God (The Father) cannot be God because he was tempted. We clearly see that from these verses God (who ever you say he was) was tempted.
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Post by JO on Mar 24, 2012 22:22:03 GMT -5
If Jesus was God, do you not think Satan would know that? Why would Satan try to tempt God? You should read this scripture in context. Jesus quoted three times from the OT, and in each case it was scripture intended for man, not God. If Jesus was God, why would he quote "Man cannot live by bread alone" Are you saying God lives by every word that proceeds from God?
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Post by JO on Mar 24, 2012 22:31:59 GMT -5
Jesus said to the Jews, "I will tell you the truth.... Before Abraham was born, I am!" some misunderstanding this verse to mean that Jesus was just claiming preexistence before Abraham. The context, however, shows that Jesus was pointing not only to his preexistence before Abraham but also to His Eternally! After all, the term I am! points back to God's name in Exodus 3:14 a name that conveys the idea of Eternal self-existence. Yahweh (the I AM that I AM) never came into being at a point in time, for He has always existed. To know Yahweh is to know the Eternal one. Nathan, compare that with the following commentary: ========================================= John 8:58-59 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple. NAS Why are they trying to stone Jesus? We know it was not because Jesus claimed to have seen Abraham. The answer is found to a great extent in the Greek; the words translated, “was born,” are better translated, “existence” (i.e. – meaning to exist). Also, the word translated as, “before,” is the Greek word, “prín,” from a root word “pros” meaning “superior; first in rank or title.” Therefore, John 8:58 is more accurately translated as, “Truly, truly I say to you, I exist as superior in rank to Abraham’s existence.” The UBS Greek text reads, “prín Abraám genésthai egoó eimí” In other words, Jesus is telling these Jews that his rank in the kingdom of God is greater than that of their father Abraham. Once he said this, the Jews took up stones to stone him to death.
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Post by JO on Mar 24, 2012 22:40:15 GMT -5
Sorry StAnne. It seems it was Sharon who claimed only God can forgive sins. I did NOT say it...I QUOTED IT! Start looking at the left hand of writing, JO and YOU will see that it has bible chapter and verse....that way you should know it is not what I or Stanne or Nathan HAVE SAID, it is what we QUOTED! You're either too dumb to catch all of this or you are as wily as a serpent and seeking to twist things around. I don't blame Stanne from getting enough with you! Play nicely Sharon! You quoted the Pharisees, and because I didn't accept the Pharisees' observation as truth you got bent out of shape???
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Post by JO on Mar 24, 2012 22:47:32 GMT -5
If you say that Jesus cannot be God because he was tempted then you have to also say that God (The Father) cannot be God because he was tempted. We clearly see that from these verses God (who ever you say he was) was tempted. This makes no sense to me. God cannot be tempted. Satan knew that, and the bible says that. ========================================== James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
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Post by sharonw on Mar 24, 2012 22:54:58 GMT -5
I did NOT say it...I QUOTED IT! Start looking at the left hand of writing, JO and YOU will see that it has bible chapter and verse....that way you should know it is not what I or Stanne or Nathan HAVE SAID, it is what we QUOTED! You're either too dumb to catch all of this or you are as wily as a serpent and seeking to twist things around. I don't blame Stanne from getting enough with you! Play nicely Sharon! You quoted the Pharisees, and because I didn't accept the Pharisees' observation as truth you got bent out of shape??? Sometimes JO, it is hard to tell exactly what your purpose is in being so obtuse when the scriptures are right in your face. As I said I was NOT commending the Pharisees but as I also quoted in the same chapter that we've talked about it plainly says the Pharisees went out and talked with each other how they could catch Jesus up in order to kill him. They did know what He said and what He meant, but all they wanted to do was kill this man who was crazy enough to indicate to them that He was the only begotten Son of God. now As Mark Lowry says, when Jesus was being crucified that His mother says it plainly by NOT reacting to that very hard account of her son dying on the cross like it says in the bible that whosoever dies on the tree, that he is accursed. But back to Mark's story...Mark said if that would have been his mother and Mark was being nailed to that tree, should would have cried out "Don't hang my son. He may be crazy, but don't hang my sons. He may think he's someone else, but please don't hang my sons." Otherwords Mary's silence tells us that she knows who her Son is and that He is God, that He is the Messiah and that it is He that even redeems her. The Jews, the Pharisees could not get it into their heads that Jesus as the son of Joseph and Mary could be more then their son...they couldn't fathom that Jesus could bear any of God's abilities, talents and counsel. but He did and this is what made the PREISTs and the Pharisees jealous...OH yes, they knew what they were saying....definitely.....not that it was a good thinb.
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Post by JO on Mar 24, 2012 22:57:12 GMT -5
God is a spirit (John 4:24), and a spirit does not have flesh and bones. (Luke 24:39). God is a spirit, yet you claim he is a person. And God's spirit is a distinct person?
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Post by JO on Mar 24, 2012 23:09:47 GMT -5
Play nicely Sharon! You quoted the Pharisees, and because I didn't accept the Pharisees' observation as truth you got bent out of shape??? Sometimes JO, it is hard to tell exactly what your purpose is in being so obtuse when the scriptures are right in your face. Do you want to talk about unadulterated 2x2 doctrine? Jesus was a man, but.... ....He wasn't "just a man". Jesus was the Son of God. If you remove your trinitarian blinders you'll see that this is what scripture teaches.
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Post by Happy Feet on Mar 24, 2012 23:23:27 GMT -5
If you say that Jesus cannot be God because he was tempted then you have to also say that God (The Father) cannot be God because he was tempted. We clearly see that from these verses God (who ever you say he was) was tempted. This makes no sense to me. God cannot be tempted. Satan knew that, and the bible says that. ========================================== James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; Maybe if I make it clearer. Matthew 4: 6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. Is Jesus calling himself God or is the devil tempting God (the father)? 1. You say Jesus is not God. 2. You also say that God (the Father) cannot be tempted - so who is Jesus talking about? i.e. who is being tempted? Jesus or the Father?
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Post by StAnne on Mar 24, 2012 23:29:32 GMT -5
CD,JO,Sharon,Nate,StAnne, Happy Feet Thanks for all your posts. Somewhere in all that there is the essence of what God has put on your heart and you have shared it with the readers of TMB. Reading and struggling with this I feel like someone put me (kinder garden guy) in with a bunch of college student. I appreciate the post but will say this has little to do with my Faith in the one who knows all things and promises to teach us what we need to know. It is evident that the struggle some of the apostles had when they said they don't do it like us still rages on. ... JMT ken
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Post by JO on Mar 24, 2012 23:41:44 GMT -5
This makes no sense to me. God cannot be tempted. Satan knew that, and the bible says that. ========================================== James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; Maybe if I make it clearer. Matthew 4: 6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. Is Jesus calling himself God or is the devil tempting God (the father)? 1. You say Jesus is not God. 2. You also say that God (the Father) cannot be tempted - so who is Jesus talking about? i.e. who is being tempted? Jesus or the Father? I believe Jesus is simply saying: "If I threw myself down and expected God to protect me I would be putting God to the test." ============================================= Matthew 4: 5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “‘He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’” 7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’”
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Post by StAnne on Mar 24, 2012 23:49:12 GMT -5
Sorry StAnne. It seems it was Sharon who claimed only God can forgive sins. I did NOT say it...I QUOTED IT! Start looking at the left hand of writing, JO and YOU will see that it has bible chapter and verse....that way you should know it is not what I or Stanne or Nathan HAVE SAID, it is what we QUOTED! You're either too dumb to catch all of this or you are as wily as a serpent and seeking to twist things around. I don't blame Stanne from getting enough with you!
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