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Post by JO on Mar 24, 2012 0:31:04 GMT -5
You wrote that Jesus must be God because only God can forgive sins.
Jesus as son of God was not qualified to forgive sins - you had to promote him to God status.
Yet you're happy for priests to forgive sins.
Sorry, I don't get it.
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Post by StAnne on Mar 24, 2012 0:34:01 GMT -5
Why did they accuse Jesus of blasphemy against God if they didn't believe Jesus was saying he was God? Is it possible they were making a false accusation? No. It isn't. Because Jesus is God, the Son. The blasphemy charge was the false accusation. Later, before Pontius Pilate, “The Jews insisted, ‘We have a law, and according to that law He must die, because He claimed to be the Son of God’” (John 19:7). Why would His claiming to be the Son of God be considered blasphemy and be worthy of a death sentence? The Jewish leaders understood exactly what Jesus meant by the phrase “Son of God.” To be the Son of God is to be of the same nature as God. The Son of God is “of God.” The claim to be of the same nature as God—to in fact be God—was blasphemy to the Jewish leaders; therefore, they demanded Jesus’ death, in keeping with Leviticus 24:15. Hebrews 1:3 expresses this very clearly, “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His being.” www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-Son-of-God.html "I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever!"-Revelation 1:17-18
First, Jesus claimed to be the unique Son of God. As a result, the Jewish leaders tried to kill Him because in "calling God his own Father, [Jesus was] making himself equal with God" (John 5:18 NIV). In John 8:58 Jesus went so far as to use the very words by which God revealed Himself to Moses from the burning bush (Exodus 3:14). To the Jews this was the epitome of blasphemy, for they knew that in doing so Jesus was clearly claiming to be God. On yet another occasion, Jesus explicitly told the Jews: "'I and the Father are one.' Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, 'I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?' 'We are not stoning you for any of these,' replied the Jews, 'but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God'" (John 10:30-33). www.christianity.com/Christian%20Foundations/Christianity%20Main/11567468/
Lived Before Abraham "Your father Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to my coming. He saw it and was glad." The people said, "You aren't even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?" Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!"4
Equal to God "The Father and I are one." Once again the people picked up stones to kill him. Jesus said, "At my Father's direction I have done many good works. For which one are you going to stone me?" They replied, "We're stoning you not for any good work, but for blasphemy! You, a mere man, claim to be God."5
To See Jesus is to See God Jesus shouted to the crowds, "If you trust me, you are trusting not only me, but also God who sent me. For when you see me, you are seeing the one who sent me. I have come as a light to shine in this dark world, so that all who put their trust in me will no longer remain in the dark."6
Said He Was Their Lord "You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and you are right, because that's what I am."7
"I am the way, the truth, the life" Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is. From now on, you do know him and have seen him!" Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied." Jesus replied, "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don't know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you?" [/i]8 www.everystudent.com/wires/whodoyousay.html[/blockquote]
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Post by StAnne on Mar 24, 2012 0:38:53 GMT -5
You wrote that Jesus must be God because only God can forgive sins. Jesus as son of God was not qualified to forgive sins - you had to promote him to God status. Yet you're happy for priests to forgive sins. Sorry, I don't get it. You sure don't. No. I surely did NOT write that. You get the aaaallllllllll the credit for that statement.
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Post by StAnne on Mar 24, 2012 0:39:40 GMT -5
G'night. Signing off for now.
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Post by JO on Mar 24, 2012 0:46:15 GMT -5
Sorry StAnne. It seems it was Sharon who claimed only God can forgive sins. They were. (Many Jews still are.) There is no dispute to that. That is why Jesus began to teach and preach that he, Jesus, was also God. For which he was crucified. And Resurrected, raising himself of his own power. God. Thru which you may have eternal life everlasting. Thanks be to God. Why? Why was he able to do this? Because he is man AND God. Yes, Jesus even explained that.... Jhn 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. Also this power: Mat 9:3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This [man] blasphemeth. Oh, oh. Now the Pharisees are finding that Jesus is taking God's power to do himself. That is blasphemy. Mat 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? Mat 9:5 For whether is easier, to say, [Thy] sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. Another place describes that the people thought only God could forgive sins. Mar 2:7 Why doth this [man] thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? Folks, are we not missing some important messages out of the gospels here? Why have we not noted that Jesus did what ONLY God could do?
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Post by JO on Mar 24, 2012 0:51:09 GMT -5
No. I surely did NOT write that. You get the aaaallllllllll the credit for that statement. The following post gave me that impression: Thru Jesus' divine nature, the Father with whom Jesus is one, did the Son of Man as Jesus refers to himself in this passage, have the power to forgive sins.
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Post by JO on Mar 24, 2012 2:28:59 GMT -5
It was suggested I consult biblical scholars on the trinity theory. Here's a document entitled The Testimony of Leading Theologians and Biblical Scholars on the Doctrine of the Trinity www.scribd.com/doc/9847220/The-Testimony-of-Leading-Theologians-and-Biblical-Scholars-on-the-Doctrine-of-the-TrinityA Biblical Comparison of the Father and the Son God is Spirit (John 4:24)Jesus is not spirit (Luke 24:39) God is always perfect (Psalm 18:30)Jesus was not always perfect (Hebrews 5:9) God cannot be tempted by evil (James 1:13)Jesus was tempted by evil (Matthew 4:1, Hebrews 4:15) God is good (Psalm 73:1)Jesus did not consider himself good (Mark 10:1) God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:16)Jesus died (Matthew 27:50) God does not sleep (Psalm 121:4)Jesus slept (Mark 4:3) God is omniscient (1 John 3:20, Psalm 147:5)Jesus is not omniscient (Luke 2:52, Mark 13:32, Hebrews 5:8, Matthew 24:36, Mark 5:30) God is omnipotent (Jeremiah 32:17, Jeremiah 23:27, Revelation 19:6, Job 42:2)Jesus is not omnipotent (John 5:30) God is omnipresent (I Kings 8:27, Psalm 139:Jesus is not omnipresent (John 11:15) God is invisible (I John 4:12, I Timothy 1:17)Jesus is visible (Luke 24:39, Revelation 1) God is greater than all (John 10:29)Jesus is not greater than all (John 14:2) God is not a man (Numbers 23:19, Hosea 11:9, Job 33:12)Jesus is a man (1 Timothy 2:5) Clearly, the Father and the Son are not coequal. After all, Jesus said so. According toJesus, the Father is the "only true God"."This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."--Jesus (John 17:3) If Jesus is not a Trinitarian, why should his followers be?
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Post by Happy Feet on Mar 24, 2012 2:45:21 GMT -5
When Jesus was tempted by the devil he said to the devil - thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. So Jesus is calling himself God here because Jesus was being tempted.
Matthew 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Also, how do you do away with hebrews 1:8
8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
These scripture which clearly state that Jesus is God, you ignore. How do you answer them, JO?
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Post by JO on Mar 24, 2012 2:54:58 GMT -5
When Jesus was tempted by the devil he said to the devil - thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. So Jesus is calling himself God here because Jesus was being tempted. I read that as Jesus refusing to throw himself down with the thought that God would save him. That would be tempting God.
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Post by Happy Feet on Mar 24, 2012 3:02:11 GMT -5
When Jesus was tempted by the devil he said to the devil - thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. So Jesus is calling himself God here because Jesus was being tempted. I read that as Jesus refusing to throw himself down with the thought that God would save him. That would be tempting God. It was not saying that. Jesus was being tempted by the devil and Jesus told the devil he cannot tempt the Lord your God. Jesus was tempting none other than Jesus himself.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2012 3:16:29 GMT -5
There are many Trinities in the bible. The one we should all love, the only one which has any relevance to us is the one Jesus mentioned when praying to His Father in the presence of His disciples, "that they may be one, as we are."
and
"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us."
The Bi-inity of Jesus and His Father becomes the Trinity with those who love Him.
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Post by Happy Feet on Mar 24, 2012 3:18:25 GMT -5
This site looks more like a Jehovah Witness site. I checked the names of several of the authors and they all appear in the JW Watchtower sites. The first name I looked up from your link - I looked up Edmond Fortman The Triune God on page 5- this is what I got. Watchtower's "Trinity" Booklet References Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1972), xv, 8-9. 25. The Encyclopedia of Religion, vol. 15, 54. 26. The Triune God, xv, ... www.exjehovahswitnesses.com/doctrine/rbt_ref.htmAnother author on the same page: page 5 of the link you posted--L.L. Paine, A Critical History of the Evolution of Trinitarianism(Boston and New York:Houghton Mifflin and Co., 1902), 4. Here is about Paine that is referred to in the article you quoted. As one website puts it. Paine was a Bible trasher, who rejected inspiration of God’s Word! [The Bible’s] "presuppositions of a divine miraculous origin and character, differentiating the Bible from all other religious literature, can no longer be admitted. Historically considered, the Bible is simply a literary product of the Hebrew and Jewish nation." (A Critical History Of The Evolution Of Trinitarianism, 1900, p269)
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Post by JO on Mar 24, 2012 3:56:53 GMT -5
You condemn the messenger so you can ignore the message?
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Post by Happy Feet on Mar 24, 2012 4:07:53 GMT -5
It was suggested I consult biblical scholars on the trinity theory. Here's a document entitled The Testimony of Leading Theologians and Biblical Scholars on the Doctrine of the Trinity www.scribd.com/doc/9847220/The-Testimony-of-Leading-Theologians-and-Biblical-Scholars-on-the-Doctrine-of-the-TrinityA Biblical Comparison of the Father and the Son God is Spirit (John 4:24)Jesus is not spirit (Luke 24:39) God is always perfect (Psalm 18:30)Jesus was not always perfect (Hebrews 5:9) God cannot be tempted by evil (James 1:13)Jesus was tempted by evil (Matthew 4:1, Hebrews 4:15) God is good (Psalm 73:1)Jesus did not consider himself good (Mark 10:1) God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:16)Jesus died (Matthew 27:50) God does not sleep (Psalm 121:4)Jesus slept (Mark 4:3) God is omniscient (1 John 3:20, Psalm 147:5)Jesus is not omniscient (Luke 2:52, Mark 13:32, Hebrews 5:8, Matthew 24:36, Mark 5:30) God is omnipotent (Jeremiah 32:17, Jeremiah 23:27, Revelation 19:6, Job 42:2)Jesus is not omnipotent (John 5:30) God is omnipresent (I Kings 8:27, Psalm 139:Jesus is not omnipresent (John 11:15) God is invisible (I John 4:12, I Timothy 1:17)Jesus is visible (Luke 24:39, Revelation 1) God is greater than all (John 10:29)Jesus is not greater than all (John 14:2) God is not a man (Numbers 23:19, Hosea 11:9, Job 33:12)Jesus is a man (1 Timothy 2:5) Clearly, the Father and the Son are not coequal. After all, Jesus said so. According toJesus, the Father is the "only true God"."This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."--Jesus (John 17:3) If Jesus is not a Trinitarian, why should his followers be? You do not have an answer for all the Bible verses which say that Jesus is God that have been quoted on this thread, JO. You ignore them. You are also unable to tell us who 'us' is when God said let us make man in 'our' image when it is clear that Jesus was there helping create the world. Or Heb 1 when the Father called Jesus God. When Thomas called Jesus God, and the numerous verse which have been quoted. You just ignore them. The statements above are full of holes. Jesus was made a man for us. You are confusing the divine Jesus with the earthly Jesus. You are referring to his human side, not his divine side. 100% human, 100% God. Jesus was clearly a trinitarian. Refuting the above. Above you quote: God is always perfect (Psalm 18:30)Jesus was not always perfect (Hebrews 5:9) Jesus was always perfect. Tell me where he sinned? God cannot be tempted, and Jesus was not tempted. The devil tried to tempt him, but Jesus was not tempted at all by the devils attempt to tempt him. Above is quoted: God is good (Psalm 73:1)Jesus did not consider himself good (Mark 10:1) Mark 10 does not say anything about this. This is Mark 10 Mark 10 1And he arose from thence, and cometh into the coasts of Judaea by the farther side of Jordan: and the people resort unto him again; and, as he was wont, he taught them again. The above quote says, God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:16)Jesus died (Matthew 27:50). So you don't believe Jesus is immortal? Jesus is immortal but the quote above says he is not. He is not dead, he is alive and sitting at the right hand of the Father. etc, etc,,,,,, The article sees Jesus merely as a man, not immortal. Jesus is not dead. He is alive. If you accept this article then you too accept he is not immortal. You think he is still dead, and do not believe in the resurrection in which Jesus rose into heaven. You seem to think according to this article that Jesus sleeps. Jesus when he was made a little lower than the Angels for the suffering of men, slept. As a human he slept, but I am sure he does not sleep now he is with the Father. What you have quoted above is not the resurrected Jesus. They do not see him as divine but as JWs do, see him as not much more than a man. You deny that is how you see him, but you see him as a man, when he lived and did the things we do while here on earth. You do not see the resurrected Jesus. Because He came to earth as a man to redeem us you believe he is dead, and omit that he rose and is alive.
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Post by fred on Mar 24, 2012 5:44:05 GMT -5
OK - for the record, I am not polytheist. I don't think I'm capable of understanding God's form and identity. For me there is sufficient evidence to suggest that Jesus is as eternal as God, and that the Holy Spirit/Ghost is also. There is conflicting evidence regarding God/Jesus/Holy Spirit as one or separate entities. I'm not about to join the trinitarian/non-trinitarian debate either. Your position is pretty well the same as mine pa1ag1..... although I consider myself trinitarian "in nature". Another poster will say that this is not possible as I do not necessarily subscribe to the minutae of the creeds. I have watched this thread with interest and have great respect for those arguing the "non" side, however my position still remains unmoved.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2012 8:43:18 GMT -5
“The doctrine of the Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament.” --New Catholic Encyclopedia Pub. Guild., 1967 “The Old Testament is strictly monotheistic. God is a single personal being. The idea that a Trinity is to be found there or even in any way shadowed forth, is an assumption that has long held sway in theology, but is utterly without foundation. The Jews, as a people, under its teachings became stern opponents of all polytheistic tendencies, and they have remained unflinching monotheists to this day. On this point there is no break between the Old Testament Scriptures and the New. The monotheistic tradition is continued. Jesus was a Jew, trained by Jewish parents in the Old Testament Scriptures. His teaching was Jewish to the core; a new gospel indeed, but not a new theology.” --L.L. Paine, A Critical History of the Evolution of Trinitarianism (Boston and New York:Houghton Mifflin and Co., 1902), ~~ hmmmmm....... I wonder how they explain what King David said in Ps. 110 The 1) LORD said unto my 2) Lord, sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. Ps.51:11 Cast me not away from thine presence, and take NOT thy 3) Holy Spirit from me. Psalm 110:1“It is quite true that Old Testament texts containing this word [‘Lord’] are sometimes in the New Testament transferred to Jesus when he functions as an agent for Yahweh (just as the angel of the Lord who exercises the authority of Yahweh is sometimes equated withYahweh). In Psalm 110:1, however, there is no question that the first Lord mentioned(Yahweh) refers to God, the Father, the One God of Israel (as it does on some 6700 occasions). The second word for ‘lord’ (here ‘my lord’) is adoni , meaning according to all standard Hebrew lexicons, ‘lord,’ ‘master,’ or ‘owner,’ and it refers here, by way of prediction, to the Messiah. If David has expected the Messiah to be God, the word used would not have been adoni but adonai , a term used exclusively for the One God. The whole Trinitarian argument from this Psalm fails because the facts of the language are wrongly reported. The Hebrew Bible does not confuse God with a human being as Trinitarianism does. The consistent distinction between human and divine references, indicated by a vital difference in the pointing of the Hebrew word Lord, has been ignored or misrepresented in translation, Bible notes and commentary under the pressure of Trinitarian dogma. It is only by reading a Trinitarian or Binitarian view into this text that the claim that the Messiah was to be fully God can be upheld. The‘lord’ expected by King David was to be both his descendent or son as well as his superior or master, but emphatically not Yahweh Himself. Psalm 110:1 stands as a barrier against any expansion of the Godhead into two or three persons. Everywhere in the New Testament Jesus is declared to be the ‘Lord Messiah’ [Christ literally means Messiah] or ‘Lord Jesus Messiah’ [See Luke 2:11 for the Messianic title christos kurios– Lord Messiah]. The term ‘lord’ does not, as so often mistakenly thought, mean that Jesus is the Lord God (thus creating the Trinitarian ‘problem’). Jesus is the ‘Messiah Lord,’ based on Psalm 110:1, where the second ‘lord’ is the promised Messiah. Peter knew that this Psalm described the appointment of Christ as ‘Lord’ (Acts 2:34-36). The enormous significance of Psalm 110:1 for New Testament Christology has been largely ignored byTrinitarians. The fact that this verse is cited by the New Testament more often than any verse from the Hebrew Scriptures should have alerted us to its critical importance. The use of adoni, not adonai, to designate the Messiah in this divine oracle should have prevented Bible students from thinking that Christ was to be God.” --Sir Anthony F. Buzzard and Charles F. Hunting, The Doctrine of the Trinity:Christianity’s Self-Inflicted Wound (Oxford: International Scholars Publications, 1998),49, 52, 53, 55, 57, 324. “[The RSV translation] has rightly dropped the capital letter on lord [in Psalm 10:1], as being of the nature of an interpretation. My lord (adoni) is the title of respect and reverence used in the Old Testament in addressing or speaking of a person of rank and dignity, especially a king (Gen. 23:6; 1 Sam. 22:12 and frequently).” --A.F. Kirkpatrick, Psalms,The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges (CambridgeUniversity Press, 1901), 665. “…the attribute of lordship… is given to Jesus; he is not equated with Yahweh.” --I. Howard Marshall, Acts, Tyndale New Testament Commentaries (Grand Rapids:Eerdmans, 1980) Genesis 1:26“Christians have traditionally seen this verse as adumbrating the Trinity. It is now universally admitted that this was not what the plural meant to the original author.” --G.J. Wenham in commentary on Genesis 1-15, Word Biblical Commentary , WordBooks, 1987, 27). “The Old Testament can scarcely be used as authority for the existence of distinctions within the Godhead. The use of ‘us’ by the divine speaker (Gen. 1:26; 3:32; 11:7) is strange, but it is perhaps due to His consciousness of being surrounded by other beings of a loftier order than Men (Isa. 6:8).” --A.B. Davidson, “God”, Hastings Dictionary of the Bible , Charles Scribner’s Sons,1911, 2:205 “[In Genesis :26] God speaks as the Creator-King, announcing his crowning work to the members of his heavenly court.” -- NIV Study Bible (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1985), 7. “Trinitarian writers seem to have gone far beyond the evidence of Scripture when they assert that the third person of the Trinity was involved in a conversation when God said,‘Let us make man in our own image’ (Gen. 1:26).[…] It seems imaginative to say that God here spoke to the Holy Spirit. God does not speak to His own Spirit. He would be talking to Himself (unless by ‘spirit’ an angel-messenger of God is meant). Is there anywhere in Scripture a hint of God speaking to His Holy Spirit? Such an idea is as foreign to the Bible as the notion that the Holy Spirit is to be worshipped or thanked, as Torrey recommends [R.A.Torrey, The Holy Spirit (Fleming Revell Co., 1977), 13, 19.]. The hymn which encourages us to ‘praise the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost’ originates in amilieu which has lost track of the biblical doctrine of the Spirit. Torrey even tells us that the Shema of Israel (Deu. 6:4) is really a Trinitarian creed [Ibid., 21, 22]. The plural form of elohim is the basis of his argument, which has been rejected by a mass of Trinitarian scholars. Why is it that popular literature makes such an appeal while the much more thorough investigations of recognized authorities on the Hebrew language go unnoticed?” --Sir Anthony F. Buzzard and Charles F. Hunting, The Doctrine of the Trinity:Christianity’s Self-Inflicted Wound (Oxford: International Scholars Publications, 1998),230, 231. [/color][/quote] John 1:18 “Jesus himself was interested in the use of the word ‘God’ for human rules (John 10:34;Ps. 82:6). The Messiah is supremely entitled to be called ‘God’ in this special sense, particularly because he embodies the ‘word’ which is itself theos (John 1:1). It is possible that John adds one further statement about Jesus as ‘God.’ He declares him to be(if this is the correct manuscript reading – the point is disputed) ‘unique son, ‘God’[ theos]’ (John 1:18). This is the ultimate Messianic description, expressing the fact that Jesus is the image of the One God. As Son of God, however, he is to be distinguished from the one who is underived, namely his Father. It remains a fact that John wrote his entire book to prove that Jesus was the Christ (John 20:31), and that the God of Jesus isalso the God of the disciples (John 20:17). An unusual occurrence of theos in reference to Jesus should not overturn John’s and Jesus’ uniform insistence on the creed of Israel.It is an unwarranted advance (2 John 9 should be noted) beyond the intention of John tomake him the innovator of the equation ‘Christ’ = ‘the Supreme God.’ It is sufficient to believe in Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of God (John 20:31).” --Sir Anthony F. Buzzard and Charles F. Hunting, The Doctrine of the Trinity:Christianity’s Self-Inflicted Wound (Oxford: International Scholars Publications, 1998),292, 293
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Post by kencoolidge on Mar 24, 2012 10:44:21 GMT -5
CD,JO,Sharon,Nate,StAnne, Happy Feet Thanks for all your posts. Somewhere in all that there is the essence of what God has put on your heart and you have shared it with the readers of TMB. Reading and struggling with this I feel like someone put me (kinder garden guy) in with a bunch of college student. I appreciate the post but will say this has little to do with my Faith in the one who knows all things and promises to teach us what we need to know. It is evident that the struggle some of the apostles had when they said they don't do it like us still rages on. I will not engage in theological battles that have created divisions in the body of Christ. I believe for me that's Gods will for me and perhaps when we step back far enough to see and understand we know the eye is not pleased perhaps with the feet etc and we try to stick the foot eye or whatever the uncomely part (in our eyes) into a box. God has bigger and better plans for his people than finding fault with what others believe. Their service is to God alone and will answer to him alone Not theologians, atheist or other Gods. Cd I do like the Luther quote "Truth before unity, conscience before authority, scripture before tradition and Christ before the church." Martin Luther JMT ken
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Post by StAnne on Mar 24, 2012 11:40:33 GMT -5
It was suggested I consult biblical scholars on the trinity theory. Here's a document entitled The Testimony of Leading Theologians and Biblical Scholars on the Doctrine of the Trinity www.scribd.com/doc/9847220/The-Testimony-of-Leading-Theologians-and-Biblical-Scholars-on-the-Doctrine-of-the-TrinityA Biblical Comparison of the Father and the Son God is Spirit (John 4:24)Jesus is not spirit (Luke 24:39) God is always perfect (Psalm 18:30)Jesus was not always perfect (Hebrews 5:9) God cannot be tempted by evil (James 1:13)Jesus was tempted by evil (Matthew 4:1, Hebrews 4:15) God is good (Psalm 73:1)Jesus did not consider himself good (Mark 10:1) God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:16)Jesus died (Matthew 27:50) God does not sleep (Psalm 121:4)Jesus slept (Mark 4:3) God is omniscient (1 John 3:20, Psalm 147:5)Jesus is not omniscient (Luke 2:52, Mark 13:32, Hebrews 5:8, Matthew 24:36, Mark 5:30) God is omnipotent (Jeremiah 32:17, Jeremiah 23:27, Revelation 19:6, Job 42:2)Jesus is not omnipotent (John 5:30) God is omnipresent (I Kings 8:27, Psalm 139:Jesus is not omnipresent (John 11:15) God is invisible (I John 4:12, I Timothy 1:17)Jesus is visible (Luke 24:39, Revelation 1) God is greater than all (John 10:29)Jesus is not greater than all (John 14:2) God is not a man (Numbers 23:19, Hosea 11:9, Job 33:12)Jesus is a man (1 Timothy 2:5) Clearly, the Father and the Son are not coequal. After all, Jesus said so. According toJesus, the Father is the "only true God"."This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."--Jesus (John 17:3) If Jesus is not a Trinitarian, why should his followers be? Your examples are the sorts of wicked interpretations that happen when people turn to their own understanding against the warnings of private interpretation without the guiding of the Holy Spirit to interpret. I only have time for a few ... Quite the opposite. Jesus said only God is good, and is acknowledging being God. Jesus was without sin. He was perfect. Barnes And being made perfect - That is, being made a "complete" Saviour - a Saviour suited in all respects to redeem people. Sufferings were necessary to the "completeness" or the "finish" of his character as a Saviour, not to his moral perfection, for he was always without sin; see this explained in the notes on Hebrews 2:10.
For it became him - There was a fitness or propriety in it; it was such an arrangement as became God to make, in redeeming many, that the great agent by whom it was accomplished, should be made complete in all respects by sufferings.
It was fit, in the nature of the case, that he should be qualified to be "a complete" or "perfect Saviour" - a Saviour just adapted to the purpose undertaken, by sufferings. bible.cc/hebrews/2-10.htm
This is what happens when people don't acknowledge Jesus' true divinity. In order for these to be true we would have to totally disregard all of the verses that tell us who Christ Jesus really is and how Christ Jesus will be worshipped. 5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness. 8And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
1 John 5:20 - more clearly written ... And we know that the Son of God is come: and he hath given us understanding that we may know the true God, and may be in his true Son. This is the true God and life eternal. Lord have mercy. Christ have mercy. Lord have mercy.
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Post by sharonw on Mar 24, 2012 11:44:37 GMT -5
The "general" categories are exclusive, but the factions of those categories are what hurts the "brotherhood" of that religion. Are those who worship the three-person-god a category or a faction? JO, please tell me why you cannot understand the 3individual persons that make up God? The scriptures all through the bible make it plain. The 3 person agree in 1, the 3 persons work as 1, but generally speaking the 3 persons have their individual positions in the only ONE true God. God the Father spoke, the Word was born for this is the ONLY begotten Son of God, the Holy Spirit moved on the face of the deep and since Jesus' resurrection and ascension the Holy Spirit has led us into a fuller knowledge of God and of Christ...for Jesus said the Holy Spirit would not speak of himself. He is the Comforter. Then Jesus was the Word made flesh and was incarnated as a fleshly fetus in the virgin Mary....And He practiced powers that only God could have....what's so difficult with understanding that God as the Son came down and took on mortal flesh and dwelt amongst them and died on the cross because of jealousy from the priests and Pharisees. It was NOT just a man that died on that cross, JO. And we know that Jesus commended His Spirit to the Father just before He died....and Jesus had prayed that He would be restored to the "glory that I had with thee before the world began." Each have their position in the one God. and it is a capital "G" not a small "g", JO! I'm not sure you understand that just a man could never redeem any one for Psalms says so...so it had to be the Creator of all things that would die to redeem His own creation to Himself...He wants to keeps all His Creation alive and as His own.
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Post by sharonw on Mar 24, 2012 11:49:00 GMT -5
The Trinity is many times referred to - in all of the places Jesus tells us that he and the Father are one - as indicated in the passages under discussion here. Semantics has led you astray. To be one is to be united... Jesus said: "that they may be one as we are one— ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ John 17:20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. Yes, all of those who have the faith to accept that Jesus' death cleanses us from all our sins will be "one" with Jesus as His bride, as His body....and that is multiple souls that will make that up...not just you nor not just me. It is hard to understand how we individuals can become ONE body with Jesus as the Head or to understand how we can all be the "bride of Christ".....how can that be....you're saying about the scripture that says Jesus want us to be "one" with Him and the Father....how can that be, JO? We're all different personalities but yet the Love of God is to knit us together as the body of Christ, the bride of Christ. It is the same way that Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit are ONE God!
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Post by sharonw on Mar 24, 2012 11:52:42 GMT -5
The Pharisees recognized that Jesus was calling himself God - otherwise they would not have accused him of blasphemy!!!!!!! How the Pharisees perceived Jesus and his teaching is not a good model for Christian doctrine. I totally disagree, JO...the Pharisees were seeing Jesus exactly as He was....they were made afraid and jealous because of their perceptions that He had powers that only God could have. But the Pharisees and priests were stymied that the son of the carpenter Joseph could be the only begotten Son of God...so it made them afraid....maybe that's your problem JO, this makes you afraid....you cannot understand it but you've read it over and over but the truth does not click on in your head and it makes you afraid of what you think others are seeing...and it should!
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Post by sharonw on Mar 24, 2012 12:03:04 GMT -5
You said only God can forgive sins. Now you say priests can forgive sins. Which is it? I didn't say that it is only God who forgives sins - although it is - with the priest acting in the person of Christ - remember that Christ is also God. God may act on his own or thru the commission to His priests to hear and forgive sins, or retain sins, by the power of binding and loosing. I believe that it is safe to say here that because the priests forgive their parishoners' sins supposedly in the spirit of Christ and the workers also work in the place of Christ, that the priests and the workers both will have to account for those they've forgiven and not forgiven...and to me that is what it is meant to say that what is retained on earth is retained in heaven....it awaits the Judgement of the Just Judge and those who have done these deeds will answer to those deeds. Now i"m not saying this to be taken in a negative way, but that who's sins are forgiven, the priests and the workers will have to speak to the why, and as well as the sins who are retained the priests and the workers will have to speak to the why the sins were NOT forgiven. The onus rests on the clergies' shoulders.
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Post by sharonw on Mar 24, 2012 12:07:24 GMT -5
You wrote that Jesus must be God because only God can forgive sins. Jesus as son of God was not qualified to forgive sins - you had to promote him to God status. Yet you're happy for priests to forgive sins. Sorry, I don't get it. You sure don't. No. I surely did NOT write that. You get the aaaallllllllll the credit for that statement. Actually JO, the Pharisees and priests said that in response to Jesus healing someone....and telling them their sins were forgiven, "Go and sin no more."
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Post by StAnne on Mar 24, 2012 12:45:24 GMT -5
I didn't say that it is only God who forgives sins - although it is - with the priest acting in the person of Christ - remember that Christ is also God. God may act on his own or thru the commission to His priests to hear and forgive sins, or retain sins, by the power of binding and loosing. I believe that it is safe to say here that because the priests forgive their parishoners' sins supposedly in the spirit of Christ and the workers also work in the place of Christ, that the priests and the workers both will have to account for those they've forgiven and not forgiven...and to me that is what it is meant to say that what is retained on earth is retained in heaven....it awaits the Judgement of the Just Judge and those who have done these deeds will answer to those deeds. Now i"m not saying this to be taken in a negative way, but that who's sins are forgiven, the priests and the workers will have to speak to the why, and as well as the sins who are retained the priests and the workers will have to speak to the why the sins were NOT forgiven. The onus rests on the clergies' shoulders. You're close - but let's say it as it is. Priests forgive sins acting in the person of Christ - in personna Christi. Just as St Paul writes - 2 Cor 2:10 for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; They do this by the power of Christ's command of Jn 20:21-23 ... 21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” In the power of binding and loosing given the Apostles (and their validly ordained successors) - the priest offers absolution in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (God) - thru Christ's promise to his valid apostles that what is bound on earth is bound in heaven and what is loosed on earth is loosed in heaven.
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Post by StAnne on Mar 24, 2012 12:50:40 GMT -5
How the Pharisees perceived Jesus and his teaching is not a good model for Christian doctrine. I totally disagree, JO...the Pharisees were seeing Jesus exactly as He was....they were made afraid and jealous because of their perceptions that He had powers that only God could have. But the Pharisees and priests were stymied that the son of the carpenter Joseph could be the only begotten Son of God...so it made them afraid....maybe that's your problem JO, this makes you afraid....you cannot understand it but you've read it over and over but the truth does not click on in your head and it makes you afraid of what you think others are seeing...and it should! Amen.
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Post by Happy Feet on Mar 24, 2012 14:59:47 GMT -5
All the references that have been posted against the Trinity on the last couple of pages on this thread, all link back to Jehovah Witness or Christadelphian websites. I don't know if the writers belong to these groups but these anti trinitarian groups are very questionable groups who claim that they (their group) is the truth. One author was Catholic but we can question that if he does not believe in Catholic teaching. I have looked up Sir Anthony F. Buzzard and Charles F. Hunting, The Doctrine of the Trinity:Christianity’s Self-Inflicted Wound (Oxford: International Scholars Publications, 1998),292, 293 quoted by clearday in post 307 of this thread and this links to the Christadelphian website. If these churches are endorsing these doctrines then I would question if this teaching is lead by the spirit. Ken, you left little HF off your list. I am debating on this thread too
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Post by JO on Mar 24, 2012 15:10:22 GMT -5
HF, trinitarians in this thread commend the Pharisees for their perception.
They were a very questionable group; their perception was not always so commendable:
Matt 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2012 15:13:11 GMT -5
I wondered when someone would find their arguments insufficient enough to begin to attack the messengers and not the message.
Maybe this will help:
“…the doctrine of a Triune God […] is not mentioned at all in Scripture.”-
-Roman Catholic theologian Cardinal Hosier, Confession Fidei Christiana (1553), ch.27.
“…the demand for a complete reappraisal of the Church’s belief in [the divinity of] Christ right up to the present day is an urgent one.”
--Roman Catholic theologian Aloys Grillmeier, S.J., Christ in Christian Tradition (Atlanta: John Knox Press, 1975), 1:557.
“That the Son is of the same essence as the Father or consubstantial with Him is not manifest in any part of Sacred Scripture, either by express words or by certain and immutable deduction.”
--Roman Catholic theologian James Masenius, Apud Sandium , 9-11, cited by Wilson, Concessions of Trinitarians (Boston: Munroe & Co., 1845), 40
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