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Post by Karen Fletcher on Mar 17, 2012 3:20:44 GMT -5
By law a child is under 18 years old - not 16, in Scotland. Child Protection Legislation is very clear on this.
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Post by criminal behavior on Mar 17, 2012 20:54:02 GMT -5
Why does it matter whether it's a child or an adult who has been abused by a worker in Scotland?
Is the crime less if it's an adult who has been indecently assaulted?
Definition: Indecent assault is any unwanted sexual behaviour or touching which is forced upon people against their will.
It is criminal in most countries and the offender faces lengthy imprisonment.
Indecent assault is any kind of touching (or threat of touching) without a person's genuine consent. What is and what is not indecent is a matter of fact for the jury.
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Post by rational on Mar 17, 2012 21:50:53 GMT -5
Why does it matter whether it's a child or an adult who has been abused by a worker in Scotland? Is the crime less if it's an adult who has been indecently assaulted? The trial is. An adult could have given consent and the trial may be to determine if it was consensual or not. With the indecent assault of a child, consent is not a possible excuse. So you are saying a jury decides what a 'reasonable person' would believe is indecent? |
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Post by rational on Mar 17, 2012 22:10:18 GMT -5
By law a child is under 18 years old - not 16, in Scotland. Child Protection Legislation is very clear on this. If you are considering the age of consent regarding sexual abuse, this is not true. The age of consent in Scotland, for either sex, is 16. Apparently the legislation was not as clear as you has thought. The legal age for entering into a contract varies with the contract being entered into. For example, 18 to buy a house. |
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Post by criminal behavior on Mar 17, 2012 22:16:03 GMT -5
Why does it matter whether it's a child or an adult who has been abused by a worker in Scotland? Is the crime less if it's an adult who has been indecently assaulted? The trial is. An adult could have given consent and the trial may be to determine if it was consensual or not. With the indecent assault of a child, consent is not a possible excuse. So you are saying a jury decides what a 'reasonable person' would believe is indecent? You are right about the issue of consent. It differs whether legal child or adult. If there was no consent, the effects on an adult victim of forced indecent assault or penetrative sex (rape) can be as bad or worse on an adult victim. The other bit in italics ("What is and what is not indecent is a matter of fact for the jury") is not my quote, it is from the law in another western country (English legal system). |
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Post by criminal behavior on Mar 17, 2012 22:54:19 GMT -5
I meant to say, if there was no consent the effects on an adult victim of forced indecent assault or penetrative sex (rape) can be as bad or worse than on an underage victim.
I could add, especially so if the victim is a young sister worker.
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Post by Supercalifragilistic on Mar 17, 2012 23:16:24 GMT -5
Criminal behaviour PLEASE get in touch with me some how. Please and thankyou! Fif81
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2012 4:24:17 GMT -5
By law a child is under 18 years old - not 16, in Scotland. Child Protection Legislation is very clear on this. If you are considering the age of consent regarding sexual abuse, this is not true. The age of consent in Scotland, for either sex, is 16. Apparently the legislation was not as clear as you has thought. The legal age for entering into a contract varies with the contract being entered into. For example, 18 to buy a house. Child protection in Scotland covers "up to" the age of 18 depending on the circumstances and what particular part of child protection is being considered. You are right rational, the age of sexual consent is sixteen. Also 16 year olds can get married irrespective of the wishes of their parents. Sexual offences laws are divided by age, usually centered around the age of puberty. Also the the Children and Young Persons Scotland Act 1937 (this may no longer apply) has several sections centred around the age of 7 years and under. It all depends on what specific circumstances you are addressing, but in one sense Karen is right, child protection affords some cover up to the age of 18 years, eg where a child supervision order is in force etc. I'm sure in most countries child protection will have similar designs. In Scotland a child becomes and adult one day before their 16th birthday. The "one day" principle is that a person on attaining their 16th birthday is actually 16years and one day old. So remember, the next time your "birth" day comes around, you actually attained your new age the day before! |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2012 4:51:54 GMT -5
Why does it matter whether it's a child or an adult who has been abused by a worker in Scotland? Is the crime less if it's an adult who has been indecently assaulted? The trial is. An adult could have given consent and the trial may be to determine if it was consensual or not. With the indecent assault of a child, consent is not a possible excuse. So you are saying a jury decides what a 'reasonable person' would believe is indecent? Usually an indecent act against another in the case of "indecent assault" is determined by lack of consent on the part of the victim and which is of an indecent or sexual nature. Many sex related acts (including petting) committed by consenting couples even in a loving environment, when forced upon an unwilling person are perceived to be indecent in nature at the very least. In common law, indecent assault is really just "assault" with an indecent factor included. Common Law assault is a "criminal attack intended to take effect upon the person of another." Fondling a woman's breats against her wishes (for example) would be regarded as such a criminal act but with the added element of indecency thrown in, therefore indecent assault. I have not studied the new Sexual Offences (Scotland) Act 2009 which will no doubt have a different or more up to date interpretation of things, but since the matter under discussion is of some antiquity it will still fall within common law should an investigation ever result. Without knowing the precise details of the allegation the actions of the perpetrator may fall within any one of several common law sexual offences, including rape! |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2012 4:57:58 GMT -5
I meant to say, if there was no consent the effects on an adult victim of forced indecent assault or penetrative sex (rape) can be as bad or worse than on an underage victim. I could add, especially so if the victim is a young sister worker. This is one reason that I have always suggested a far more extensive approach towards dealing with potential abuses than just considering csa. A promiscuous 14 year old may lap up something that could destroy a conservative 24 year old. |
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Post by Karen Fletcher on Mar 18, 2012 9:05:09 GMT -5
I know we were not speaking of consensual sex. I was just highlighting the age in law as it stands with Child Protection in Scotland.
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Post by sharonw on Mar 19, 2012 9:36:19 GMT -5
Criminal behaviour PLEASE get in touch with me some how. Please and thankyou! Fif81 fif81, you can PM Criminal Behaviour...just click on his name in the left hand column of his posting and it will take you to his stats and you can click on "send personal message"....you know like we've corresponded...same way in reverse, Criminal behaviour! |
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Post by Supercalifragilistic on Mar 19, 2012 17:21:29 GMT -5
I can't cause they are not reistered...just on as a guest...argh!!...
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Post by Scott Ross on Mar 19, 2012 17:27:44 GMT -5
I can't cause they are not reistered...just on as a guest...argh!!... If they want to, they can email me and I will put them in touch with you. My email address is at the bottom of all my posts. Of course they can also register and I then they can send you a PM on the board. I will vouch for you fif81 if that matters at all. Since you and I know who each other are, I do know that you are sincerely interested in contacting 'criminal behavior'.  Scott  |
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Post by emy on Apr 12, 2012 11:23:42 GMT -5
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Post by onlooker on May 9, 2012 8:25:01 GMT -5
I believe it is UK or at least Englands workers meetings today with conventions due to start Scotland and England then moving on to Ireland in subsequent weeks
Presumably there is no airing of the main issues and a successful meeting of workers is considered, depending who you are, to be one where nobodys position (eg of the headships power) is threatened and they are all motivated to carry on as ever.
Nor would I expect concerns over CSA, concerns relating to closure of 4 conventions in the UK in the last 10 years (Findochty, Debenham, Hanney, Somerset, they're undisputable facts), the purchase of a new super site, kingdom cars (every worker seems to get the perk nowadays), and the financial aspects etc dare to get mentioned.
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Post by Guest UK on May 9, 2012 17:06:39 GMT -5
I had been told there was information on the internet suggesting the worker who has left the work in Scotland had been involved with children. I was unfortunately involved with this person, but not as a child. Young and immature, but not a child. This was an improper relationship because of his position and the age difference and because of the trust which was abused. The power given to these people can be used to ill effect. There were other reasons, most of which which I am not party to, why this decision was taken. I know others have been hurt by this persons behaviour also but mostly I believe in other ways and there is no doubt in my mind this decision is correct. My involvement was many years ago and this has happened too late from my perspective. I believe this persons family are being targeted from some corners which appals me. He is responsible for his actions and no one else.
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Post by Scott Ross on May 9, 2012 18:50:58 GMT -5
I had been told there was information on the internet suggesting the worker who has left the work in Scotland had been involved with children. I was unfortunately involved with this person, but not as a child. Young and immature, but not a child. This was an improper relationship because of his position and the age difference and because of the trust which was abused. The power given to these people can be used to ill effect. There were other reasons, most of which which I am not party to, why this decision was taken. I know others have been hurt by this persons behaviour also but mostly I believe in other ways and there is no doubt in my mind this decision is correct. My involvement was many years ago and this has happened too late from my perspective. I believe this persons family are being targeted from some corners which appals me. He is responsible for his actions and no one else. Was this improper relationship reported to the overseer at any time? Just curious, as that is pretty much what happened in the case that got him removed from the work. The girl was 15 I believe at the time of the incident. |
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Post by Guest UK on May 10, 2012 1:02:18 GMT -5
I really do not know how old, but think more like 18/19. I have written and spoken to overseers over the years, when the relationship and other things that I knew about got me down and meant I could no longer believe and carry on in "The Truth". I was not forced and do not want wrong information out there which is why I am writing. I feel there is an attempt, which I applaud, to enforce some guidelines on acceptable behaviour, but rather too late and I believe Scotland has been impoverished by not dealing with this and similar issues before.
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Post by onlooker on May 10, 2012 1:25:52 GMT -5
I don't know the WIQ nor anyone related to him, but I have been told by people in the know as to where he may now be living temporary or permanently. I also have been told (not officially) that his nerves were left in a very bad state after being caught up in the tsunami devastation 6 or more years when visiting that area for a convention trip. And that reason is sufficient to at least appease maybe the more elderly people in that country, who would be the sort to have no suspicions about any other reasons existing. And they are very sympathetic to his condition. I dont believe he attends meetings ATM.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2012 5:05:29 GMT -5
I strongly suspect there is a genuine fear that more things will come out of the woodwork and not just confined to this worker. A policy of openness will only exacerbate those fears.
As for the WIQ. His life is in tatters. He is finished. A terrible position for him to be in. Others will fear ending up like him. He is to be pitied. It is a wonderful thing that with true repentance he can turn to the same merciful good that we all depend on for our own demerits.
However, all that he stood for in the past goes for nothing. What a waste.
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Post by Scott Ross on May 10, 2012 5:41:52 GMT -5
I really do not know how old, but think more like 18/19. I have written and spoken to overseers over the years, when the relationship and other things that I knew about got me down and meant I could no longer believe and carry on in "The Truth". I was not forced and do not want wrong information out there which is why I am writing. I feel there is an attempt, which I applaud, to enforce some guidelines on acceptable behaviour, but rather too late and I believe Scotland has been impoverished by not dealing with this and similar issues before. Thanks for clarifying that. |
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Post by terrible position on May 10, 2012 6:06:21 GMT -5
As for the WIQ. His life is in tatters. He is finished. A terrible position for him to be in. Have you considered the "terrible position" this man's victims (both children and adult) are left in? Devastated lives is too weak to describe the lifelong sentences he has left for his victims upon whom he satisfied his sexual lusts. His life is in tatters? That is simply God's justice, read Romans 1: 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. However much he suffers in this life, there is far worse coming unless he confesses and repents in bitter remorse. The bible tells us so. To do so would free his victims in some way to begin the healing journey, and give hope for this man's soul. His current path is to eternally face the wrath of just God. |
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2012 6:23:05 GMT -5
As for the WIQ. His life is in tatters. He is finished. A terrible position for him to be in. Have you considered the "terrible position" this man's victims (both children and adult) are left in? Devastated lives is too weak to describe the lifelong sentences he has left for his victims upon whom he satisfied his sexual lusts. His life is in tatters? That is simply God's justice, read Romans 1: 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. However much he suffers in this life, there is far worse coming unless he confesses and repents in bitter remorse. The bible tells us so. To do so would free his victims in some way to begin the healing journey, and give hope for this man's soul. His current path is to eternally face the wrath of just God. In all my posts ALWAYS remember that, whether I mention it or not, my sympathy begins first and foremost with the victims and their healing and recovery is paramount. I have "often" stated this position when addressing csa matters. Forgive me for not making it a caveat with every post. This man is finished in this life. Only the mercy of God offers him an eternal future, something that both you and I will also have to rely on. God will forgive us for our sins if we repent. That is a promise he has made to us. However, he has not promised to remove the "consequences" of our sins from us. This man will at the very least be suffering from these consequences. Yes he could and should do the little he can to show true remorse and seek forgiveness from his victim(s). However, there may yet be criminal investigations with regards to some of his actions. Let us be circumspect meantime. |
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Post by terrible position on May 10, 2012 8:26:10 GMT -5
Fully agree ram. thanks |
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2012 8:34:59 GMT -5
Fully agree ram. thanks Once Gene Nelson gets his tail-docking tongs back from Australia/New Zealand we can request a loan of them over here. |
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Post by onlooker on May 11, 2012 1:57:09 GMT -5
With Scottish conventions starting today it must be a bit humiliating for the people there that the chairman (overseer) is not a native. Help from Ireland, and possibly England ? must have been called up in a moment of desperation from the local workers, not the friends.
The Scots have always been fiercely proud and independent.
After all the truth movement started (W.Irvine) with one of theirs. (even if the official history according to the workers involves Willie Gill in Ireland); and dozens of Scottish workers circulated the world soon after.
On top of that it is a Scot who is the first named person in the first page of the bible they use. His name is King James.
I wonder how it will feel for them
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2012 2:33:09 GMT -5
With Scottish conventions starting today it must be a bit humiliating for the people there that the chairman (overseer) is not a native. Help from Ireland, and possibly England ? must have been called up in a moment of desperation from the local workers, not the friends. The Scots have always been fiercely proud and independent. After all the truth movement started (W.Irvine) with one of theirs. (even if the official history according to the workers involves Willie Gill in Ireland); and dozens of Scottish workers circulated the world soon after. On top of that it is a Scot who is the first named person in the first page of the bible they use. His name is King James. I wonder how it will feel for them And don't forget, Adam was a Scotsman! He has become colloquially known in these parts as Jock Tamson (we're a' Jock Tamson's bairns). Our capital city Edinburgh derives from it's original name "Eden-burgh," on account of the little known fact that the Garden of Eden was in Scotland (some even say it was at Gartocharn!). However, since the River Eden runs through Fife what further proof do we need? No wonder most of the world's citizens did deep to try and come up with a Scots' great grannie in order to establish some kind of blood link to these parts. And while I think about it, we must not overlook "the waater o' life," that famous Scots beveridge known as Scotch! Even William Irvine couldn't match it's export achievements. Some liken the waater o' life to the tree of life, and there may be good arguments for this on account of the spirits in both, but I suspect some degree of confusion has arisen? Then there's oor ither national drink, "Barr's Irn Bru!" Made in Scotland from girders! Legend has it that (based on actual facts) David swallied some o' this stuff afore he went oot and slew Goliath. A can o' that is a' that's needed to overcome the most humungous o' giants. |
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