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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2012 3:39:37 GMT -5
Hi GuestUK, Re: your post - maybe not child abuse. Well if not, you were certainly taken advantage of, and by a person you should have been able to trust. Horrible situation to be put in. Please realise that there are plenty posting here, and many others that read, that care for you. Aussie Mouse If guestuk was 16 years of age at the time of the "incident(s), was of sound mind and consensual, then we have "no crime!" However, from what I know about the male person I have no hesitation in appending the label of "sexual predator," a title seriously aggravated by his position of trust and standing. He may have been operating inside the law but has clearly used his position to prey upon the vulnerable. |
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Post by emy on May 23, 2012 9:32:32 GMT -5
I have watched this thread following my previous posting. I posted then of my involvement with Ralph Joss. We had a lot of contact with workers growing up and he gave me a lot of attention from my teenage years, probably 13 or14, but I do not remember, seriously, how old I was when there was physical contact. It was later than this, but I could not now give a definite age.I have spent years feeling awful as I probably felt flattered by the attention and was not forced into this. I remember some specific episodes and these make me hate myself for being involved, but I could not stand up and say this was definitely child abuse. There may be others He has been involved with, and this may be an unnecessary posting if there are, but although this was very damaging to me I would not want the CSA label applied wrongly. Many people have been damaged by this person in other ways and there were many reasons for his being removed from the work. My situation was only one factor CSA should be reported, if definite, and if there are other definite cases here I would agree with your assessments and desire to report, but this is a pretty awful label if wrongly applied. Dear UK person, thank you for your honesty and openness. I have some experience in this area from the social work perspective, also from personal experiences. It matters little how old exactly you were when Mr Joss instigated actual physical contact. From what you say, you were groomed by this older man who was in a position of considerable authority over you, a young and vulnerable girl at that stage in your life. "We had a lot of contact with workers growing up and he gave me a lot of attention from my teenage years, probably 13 or14, but I do not remember, seriously, how old I was when there was physical contact."Yes at that age, we feel flattered by the attention. Especially because it is from someone older who we respect because of his position in the world. Looking back, we tend to blame ourselves because it was enjoyable for the young us, not just physically but also the special attention from such a respected authority figure. It is filling a need in the young us. We have gone along, willingly we believe despite our young years, in something we knew was wrong but it was our secret pleasure. "I have spent years feeling awful as I probably felt flattered by the attention and was not forced into this."Believe me, this is so common. And it is deliberate child abuse by a nasty self-absorbed sexual predator who has used his power over a young girl in a very manipulative way to get what HE wants."this was very damaging to me"Believe me, dear young lady, from my own personal and professional experience, you have been used as a young innocent girl by an abusive older man. He did not have your interests at heart. He did not treat you with the love that Christ loves you. You were not to blame, not in any way. Not one little bit!It is possible to heal very greatly from your experiences. I know. The first step is to understand without any shadow of doubt - what Mr Joss did to you as a young girl was wrong and you - as that young girl - are not in any way to blame. Then if you feel a need to talk, find a professional counsellor who will help with your healing journey. But the first step, and it's a big one, is to know in your heart that you are not to blame. Dear person, you will remain in my prayers for your beautiful, guilt-free life ahead. A life where you are free to live and serve in the pure love that God loves you with! Good post! |
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Post by aussie2 on May 23, 2012 12:49:34 GMT -5
Surely there is one senior worker who will stand up and say enough is enough. It will cost them but the respect and support they will gain will be much more than the persecution they will face
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Post by Scott Ross on May 23, 2012 14:46:08 GMT -5
Surely there is one senior worker who will stand up and say enough is enough. It will cost them but the respect and support they will gain will be much more than the persecution they will face I don't think that the senior workers realize how many people are aware of the issues, and that they are watching to see how they are dealt with by the senior workers. They lost trust and respect the longer these issues remain unresolved, and even worse for the church is the number of members that they simply lose. When issues are dealt with openly and honestly, the whole church is able to understand what is going on, they feel the pain and have a chance to heal, and then the church emerges stronger than before because they have been allowed to go through a grieving process. Unresolved issues are a festering wound that never heals, and causes the church to weaken. |
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Post by onlooker on May 23, 2012 15:20:00 GMT -5
Surely there is one senior worker who will stand up and say enough is enough. It will cost them but the respect and support they will gain will be much more than the persecution they will face I don't think that the senior workers realize how many people are aware of the issues, and that they are watching to see how they are dealt with by the senior workers. . I dont think the impetus for sorting the problem will come from inside Scotland itself, and someone needs to get the ear of more seniors in the neighbouring countries, England, Ireland, and of Scottish workers who are abroad, whoever and wherever they are, and tell them there's no point concealing anything. To tell them it's in the public domain and easily googled now with the name of the suspect having been mentioned publicly on this board now. Scotland will have just finished the first 2 conventions. Would love to know if this was subject of any discussion there. But I already know there's a generation of friends who would say "He wouldn't hurt a flea, he's harmless" |
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Post by guest UK on May 23, 2012 17:59:26 GMT -5
I appreciate the support given here. I did have counselling for quite a time to help deal with the problems I have had. I realise I have been fortunate to have had this help.
I am heartened that there is a group of overseers who have been able to make the decisions they have made in this situation, and I have had a letter to confirm they are appalled by what happened to me. I never thought this day would happen, so I rate this as progress and hope some of this willingness to accept and deal with the evil within the group continues.
I have a lot of family who are still part of The Faith and have respect for a lot of people in it. They deserve an upright leadership and I hope will have the strength to accept what this may mean.
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Post by Brianna on May 27, 2012 8:25:37 GMT -5
I don't think that the senior workers realize how many people are aware of the issues, and that they are watching to see how they are dealt with by the senior workers. . I dont think the impetus for sorting the problem will come from inside Scotland itself, and someone needs to get the ear of more seniors in the neighbouring countries, England, Ireland, and of Scottish workers who are abroad, whoever and wherever they are, and tell them there's no point concealing anything. To tell them it's in the public domain and easily googled now with the name of the suspect having been mentioned publicly on this board now. Scotland will have just finished the first 2 conventions. Would love to know if this was subject of any discussion there. But I already know there's a generation of friends who would say "He wouldn't hurt a flea, he's harmless" YES ONLOOKER, We have one of those "harmless" ones and they are still saying it here in OZ. I just wonder what it will take for people to accept. And I wonder how many others there are??? |
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Post by onlooker on Jun 6, 2012 5:46:26 GMT -5
We must still accept the possibility that either all, most, little or none of what has been said here is true. A lot of 'she said/ he said'!
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Post by Guest UK on Jun 8, 2012 7:20:55 GMT -5
I am sorry to say, onlooker, that everything I have said in my posting has been true. How I wish I could have a pure view of the "Truth". Unfortunately it was destroyed many years ago. How many more actual true things do you want me to post ? I have plenty. I have posted what I felt was appropriate to stop some speculation, but suggesting some of what I have posted is untrue would make me want to expose more actual truths.
I have a lot of people close to me in the "Truth"who I respect and realise there will always be a bad element in any organisation. I have hope they are now realising there are correct ways of dealing with this element.
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Post by onlooker on Jun 8, 2012 7:35:05 GMT -5
I am sorry to say, onlooker, that everything I have said in my posting has been true. How I wish I could have a pure view of the "Truth". Unfortunately it was destroyed many years ago. How many more actual true things do you want me to post ? I have plenty. I have posted what I felt was appropriate to stop some speculation, but suggesting some of what I have posted is untrue would make me want to expose more actual truths. I have a lot of people close to me in the "Truth"who I respect and realise there will always be a bad element in any organisation. I have hope they are now realising there are correct ways of dealing with this element. OK, all I can go on is that I heard there had been a summit meeting about 3 months ago involving at least 2 English seniors, and at least 1 Scottish working abroad ; that 2 Irish workers had been sent to Scotland, one to take oversight; that there is talk on here of a letter to one victim from seniors apologising for appalling events which she reported; and that a certain male worker was staying on a certain farm, within reach of meetings, but not attending them; and that his relatives had been subjected to some kind of whispering/hate campaign. Of course all that adds up to quite a compelling case, but we haven't heard any admission of blame from any such defendant, and allegedly people living very close don't know any such details and are told ill health is the reason. |
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Post by onlooker on Jun 10, 2012 4:01:45 GMT -5
New English workers list in publication
No Scottish workers in England but one Welsh worker 'Helping in Scotland (pro tem)'
There had been rumours of a bigger sort out but this is barely noticeable
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Post by JO on Jun 12, 2012 3:49:45 GMT -5
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Post by LITTLEPADDY on Jun 12, 2012 10:00:19 GMT -5
What are the chances of the English & Scottish List being put here for us all to read
Interested to know where the Irish workers in Scotland's fields are and who thier companions are
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Grief
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Post by Grief on Jun 30, 2012 16:53:00 GMT -5
My sympathy with guest Uk concerning difficult experiences in life that return to plague you! Others too will have had similar situations that they don't feel comfy with!
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Post by JO on Jul 2, 2012 18:11:11 GMT -5
My sympathy with guest Uk concerning difficult experiences in life that return to plague you! Others too will have had similar situations that they don't feel comfy with! I hope its not sexual abuse, and especially child sexual abuse, that you're describing as "difficult experiences in life that return to plague you" or "situations that they don't feel comfy with". If you love the fellowship and the people in it you would do well to get up to speed on this great evil that is referred to as child sexual abuse or CSA. |
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Post by JO on Jul 2, 2012 18:16:55 GMT -5
We must still accept the possibility that either all, most, little or none of what has been said here is true. A lot of 'she said/ he said'! Thankfully secular authorities are far more competant at finding the truth than the professing grapevine is. |
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Grief
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Post by Grief on Jul 28, 2012 16:52:05 GMT -5
I would love to send a PM to GuestUk but seems impossible!
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Post by sharonw on Jul 29, 2012 9:33:42 GMT -5
What are the chances of the English & Scottish List being put here for us all to read Interested to know where the Irish workers in Scotland's fields are and who thier companions are I found this very interesting and ironic...it was Scotland workers that took the gospel into Ireland wasn[t it? To start with....seems the fellowship is coming full circle back to it's beginning and perhaps in that may be the smallest of hopes that the whol fellowship would rid itself of unsavory people and make sure that the wrong preachings are made right and use the true gospel of Jesus Christ to build the new fellowship on. |
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Post by sharonw on Jul 29, 2012 9:35:42 GMT -5
I would love to send a PM to GuestUk but seems impossible! They are not a registered member of TMB, unless under another pen name. You can leave a request that they PM you and give you their private email.... |
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Post by shetlander on Aug 6, 2012 15:50:55 GMT -5
i can confirm that the former worker scottish in question with "heart " problems does have a heart problem as last year in our area he was on a high dose of heart medication and did not look well,
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Post by contents checked on Aug 22, 2012 12:35:44 GMT -5
On bbc.co.uk the UK's main broadcasting company's website today
There's nothing new.
Be assured this is no way connected with F&W
21 August 2012 Last updated at 17:25
BBC South East Home Affairs Correspondent
Ian Jackson told Ms Barnes in an email that he thought she was making the wrong decision by going to the police
An evangelist Christian preacher from East Sussex urged a victim of sexual abuse not to report the man responsible to the police, the BBC has learned.
Ian Jackson told Lina Barnes he would not support her if she reported that Gospel Hall Brethren preacher Allan Cundick assaulted her at the age of 12.
Mr Jackson, from Eastbourne, said he was only concerned for her progress.
But Ms Barnes, 33, who sought advice from him last year, said he wanted to protect the Church.
Cundick, from the Woking area of Surrey, received a police caution in June 2011 and was placed on the sex offenders register for two years.
'Be merciful'
Ms Barnes, who has waived her anonymity, said: "I'd confided a lot in Ian Jackson about what I had suffered and here was this man now telling me that I just had to be merciful to my abuser, not to involve the police, and it just caused a lot of hurt, a lot of heartache."
Continue reading the main story
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Start Quote
It would in my view be very regrettable for dirty linen to be in the public arena”
End Quote
Ian Jackson
She added: "I believe he [Mr Jackson] didn't want it getting out."
Ms Barnes added: "In his email, he said to me it was important that Christians keep the testimony of the Church and therefore protect the institution."
Last year, Ms Barnes told Mr Jackson she planned to report her abuser to the police.
But in an email on 24 May 2011, Mr Jackson wrote to her: "I am not prepared to give you any support in relation to the involvement of the police and court proceedings.
"I think it is a wrong decision that you have made."
He said: "There is a better way. 'Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.'"
Mr Jackson added: "In a day when every opportunity is being taken by the enemies of the gospel to deride it, it would in my view be very regrettable for dirty linen to be in the public arena.
"I urge you to have regard to testimony."
'Good faith'
Mr Jackson, who travels the country preaching in gospel halls and has given sermons at Marine Hall in Eastbourne, said he and his wife believed Ms Barnes approached them purely on a personal basis and said neither of them held any position or office in any church.
Continue reading the main story
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Start Quote
We encourage anyone who has concerns about potential sexual abuse to contact us”
End Quote
Surrey Police
He said: "We have no experience of dealing with matters of sexual abuse, as we made plain to Lina at the outset. We have at all times acted in good faith."
He added: "Our remit was primarily Lina's own personal progress. We have absolutely no sympathy whatsoever for offences of this nature - which, whatever their degree of seriousness, we find repulsive - neither do we believe that they should be hushed up."
Simon Bass, from the Churches' Child Protection Advisory Service, said: "To use scripture as a means of saying we should keep this in house and we should not report this to the authorities again - it's quite incredulous to even think that somebody would do that.
"It's totally against what is good safeguarding practice."
In the Cundick case, Surrey Police confirmed a 75-year-old man received a police caution last year following an investigation into a report of an indecent assault which happened in the Woking area in the 1990s.
A statement from the force said the man was also required to register as a sex offender and was disqualified from working with children.
It added: "Allegations made against any individuals will be investigated thoroughly, whether they are current or historic, and we encourage anyone who has concerns about potential sexual abuse to contact us."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2012 10:36:34 GMT -5
Can anyone shed more light on where this Scotland case amongst the fellowship is currently at?
It feels like Scotland friends are in turmoil over this case. Certainly we have had upset Scottish people recently ringing on our phone, claiming injustice has been done.
It now sounds like the victim was not under age when anything physical took place with the worker (and some of the posts by Guest UK would appear to support this).
Yet I understand that the charge of sexual abuse with a minor has been definitely verbally given by overseers to a number of the friends and workers.
If this charge is not true, this would clearly not be just or fair to the alleged perpetrator.
I cant imagine anyone on this Board disagreeing that something needs to be done if such an injustice has been made.
Can anyone confirm if they have had any recent confirmation from a reliable source one way or the other on what this is all about.
Right from the start, communication has been utterly appalling on this case.
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Post by hedgehog on Sept 3, 2012 17:54:48 GMT -5
I think the case is that the charge of CSA was actually never made, but has been assumed by many and carried on by the jungle drums.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2012 13:37:38 GMT -5
The allegation of abuse of an underage person was made all right - some have confirmed that with workers. The problem is now it looks like it never happened. Such an allegation , if now known to be wrong, needs rectifying sharpish.
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Post by Scott Ross on Sept 6, 2012 15:00:27 GMT -5
The allegation of abuse of an underage person was made all right - some have confirmed that with workers. The problem is now it looks like it never happened. Such an allegation , if now known to be wrong, needs rectifying sharpish. Meaning that the girl was 16 or older so there is no 'abuse of an underage person'? This is from that individual: I have watched this thread following my previous posting. I posted then of my involvement with Ralph Joss. We had a lot of contact with workers growing up and he gave me a lot of attention from my teenage years, probably 13 or14, but I do not remember, seriously, how old I was when there was physical contact. It was later than this, but I could not now give a definite age.I have spent years feeling awful as I probably felt flattered by the attention and was not forced into this. I remember some specific episodes and these make me hate myself for being involved, but I could not stand up and say this was definitely child abuse. There may be others He has been involved with, and this may be an unnecessary posting if there are, but although this was very damaging to me I would not want the CSA label applied wrongly. Many people have been damaged by this person in other ways and there were many reasons for his being removed from the work. My situation was only one factor CSA should be reported, if definite, and if there are other definite cases here I would agree with your assessments and desire to report, but this is a pretty awful label if wrongly applied. And her own words in that statement: .....but although this was very damaging to me I would not want the CSA label applied wrongly. |
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Post by Guest UK on Sept 7, 2012 2:58:12 GMT -5
Having been concerned at the CSA label, and having had to think about what happened I feel sad watching this now. Most of what happened to me was when I was over 18. Those incidents are what make me feel bad. There was one incidence of very minor contact, i.e kissing, and I know I was under 18 then, though again I do not think the Child label would apply.
As I understand it what was stated was concern over his behaviour over many years, including involvement with a 'minor'. I know of some of the other concerns, though have limited knowledge, and have no doubt this was the correct decision and feel the above statement is appropriate.
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Post by SharonArnold on Sept 7, 2012 15:03:56 GMT -5
Having been concerned at the CSA label, and having had to think about what happened I feel sad watching this now. Most of what happened to me was when I was over 18. Those incidents are what make me feel bad. There was one incidence of very minor contact, i.e kissing, and I know I was under 18 then, though again I do not think the Child label would apply. As I understand it what was stated was concern over his behaviour over many years, including involvement with a 'minor'. I know of some of the other concerns, though have limited knowledge, and have no doubt this was the correct decision and feel the above statement is appropriate. If something falls under the CSA label, I think it should be brought to the attention of proper authorities and should be dealt with due process under the full extent of the law. When I was a young person, I did not spend much time thinking about workers. (Did not particularly like them when I was a member – and, as it turns out, with good reason.) But, still, I (and probably most 2x2 members) thought that workers were pretty exemplary in their behavior – not ever really having an unkind thought or deed. And most certainly (rarely) having a sexual thought and (never) having a sexual deed. I can now look back on this as being naïve and uninformed. However. I don’t think I manufactured this perspective –I think it was was actively promoted by the system. Whether it is CSA (punishable by law) or ASA (okay by our society) – it is still NOT okay. This is a system that is actively punitive towards D&R people. Why? Gee, it must have something to do with sex? And yet we are to (marginally) accept that sexually active members of the ministry are okay, because it is between consenting adults? I don’t think so. Guest UK, no second guessing or apologies needed. |
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Post by sharonw on Sept 7, 2012 15:18:45 GMT -5
Having been concerned at the CSA label, and having had to think about what happened I feel sad watching this now. Most of what happened to me was when I was over 18. Those incidents are what make me feel bad. There was one incidence of very minor contact, i.e kissing, and I know I was under 18 then, though again I do not think the Child label would apply. As I understand it what was stated was concern over his behaviour over many years, including involvement with a 'minor'. I know of some of the other concerns, though have limited knowledge, and have no doubt this was the correct decision and feel the above statement is appropriate. If something falls under the CSA label, I think it should be brought to the attention of proper authorities and should be dealt with due process under the full extent of the law. When I was a young person, I did not spend much time thinking about workers. (Did not particularly like them when I was a member – and, as it turns out, with good reason.) But, still, I (and probably most 2x2 members) thought that workers were pretty exemplary in their behavior – not ever really having an unkind thought or deed. And most certainly (rarely) having a sexual thought and (never) having a sexual deed. I can now look back on this as being naïve and uninformed. However. I don’t think I manufactured this perspective –I think it was was actively promoted by the system. Whether it is CSA (punishable by law) or ASA (okay by our society) – it is still NOT okay. This is a system that is actively punitive towards D&R people. Why? Gee, it must have something to do with sex? And yet we are to (marginally) accept that sexually active members of the ministry are okay, because it is between consenting adults? I don’t think so. Guest UK, no second guessing or apologies needed. Actually have not some authorities used ministers or any other positions of power on people that though it may come out said to be a consensual sex that because of who the person is that instigates the act being in a position of power thus in reality making it impossible for their target being able to refuse or even understand what the instigator is all about? I think as I read in the OT how much God hated "fornication" that the people who are saying consensual sex is tolerable in the ministry that they have little understanding of the bible...it IS fornication most often that brings about divorce and remarriage, right? The fornication has to come first? So why would workers who say they're led by the Holy Spirit feel that fornicating with whomever they so well wish but not givingt hand in marriage that they can really turn around and be judgmental on D&R amongst the members of their fellowship? How ridiculous can they be. and how stupide can they be? Fornication brings about D&R most times as not, so if workers are into fornicating what are they contributing to? They're contributing to a decaying moral system and more D&R |
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