|
Post by Admin on May 12, 2023 20:34:44 GMT -5
This is a thread for specific responses to this request from Jeremy and Leonie Tomlinson: " We want to ask for your input on what follows below. Your suggestions are needed for how to encourage change, as there are many people with serious concerns about the Ministry. Also please feel free to share this message as this is about transparency, accountability and honesty." This is kind-of a follow-up to the recent thread professing.proboards.com/thread/31861/church-reformWritten by a professing couple and posted with their permission.
May 9, 2023 Dear Folks, We want to ask for your input on what follows below. Your suggestions are needed for how to encourage change, as there are many people with serious concerns about the Ministry. Also please feel free to share this message as this is about transparency, accountability and honesty. A few months ago, when the CSA tipping point arrived in our collective view, we knew that there were very few people that would be willing to tackle this matter. However, over the last couple of months there has been momentum growing and people that were previously reluctant to speak up and stand out are now doing so. We truly value the blessings that flow from Fellowship in the Spirit but without unity true fellowship through the Spirit is not possible. Going into a future where there are camps of those that support the status quo and those that do not will destroy unity, which we are already experiencing. Most of you know we have had an unsanctioned Sunday meeting for the last 6 weeks or so and we have had some of our most precious meetings in that time, with the Spirit very clearly present. If our hearts and true intentions are of God, we will get true bread and we will be strengthened. This is a storm and foundations are getting tested. Unfortunately the foundations of the Ministry are being shaken and are not faring very well. We don’t intend to write this as a “call to battle” or as people looking for a platform of support to further a personal agenda – far from it. We would gladly pass this on to anyone else better equipped to handle this. We are motivated by the Love of our Fellowship and of the Doctrine of Jesus and find the hurt that people are experiencing too much to just stand by and observe. We pray for Gods guidance every day in this, and we have Faith that the Spirit will be with us and will guide us. List of possible changes: These are suggestions and we ask for your input please: No more Overseers as we know it. The oversight of the Ministry be both Servant and Saint (men and women). Elders and Overseers are interchangeable in the New Testament. This will promote balance, accountability and transparency. Accountability and transparency of how Ministry money is spent and a return to living by Faith. Do away with the “culture of conformance” (as opposed to following Doctrine) and fear of being sidelined or ostracized. Keep an active watch against Cultism. The Ministry culture of male dominance, power and weaponization of fear must stop. The latter should apply to the friends as well. Administrative and planning meetings to not be held by Overseers only, but a combination of Servant and Saint. Convention time workers’ meetings to include Elders and Deacons. We need transparency, not secrecy. New workers be screened for suitability. Life experience – paid rent, held down a job, etc. [No] Criminal past. The work should not be a place for people who have no other options, as this becomes a natural reason applied to a sacred calling. Workers are not immune to being questioned about their actions. - this should be about open, transparent and constructive communication in the Spirit of Christ. The Spirit of Christ does no harm to a neighbour, so a culture that results in so many traumatized friends and workers both male and female, needs to be urgently addressed. Stay away from politics and socio-political issues. Other thoughts: For many years there has been a culture of covering up bad news and we believe that in some cases the intentions were noble but severely flawed. One such reasoning was that we don’t want bad news to discourage the sheep. However the sheep walk before God as individuals. We will be disappointed in man from time to time and we should not be surprised or discouraged by it. Secrecy is discouraging, not transparency. Again we welcome any suggestions and understand that we may not all agree with each other but Prayer, Love and Grace will enable us to come together and with God’s help fix the Fellowship we love and cherish. You can text us with any input, feedback or suggestions. Our contact details: Jeremy cell REDACTED Leonie cell REDACTED Kind regards, Jeremy and Leonie Tomlinson
|
|
|
Post by Admin on May 12, 2023 20:43:58 GMT -5
For Jeremy and Leonie: - Preach the NT gospel of grace (see mod5's post professing.proboards.com/post/1048854/thread )
- Scrap exclusivism (this goes hand-in-glove with the first point - gospel of salvation by grace alone through faith in Christ)
- Do away with mandatory celibacy in the ministry
- Allow married workers (the friends are well able to support married workers, think of benefits including lived experience of family responsibilities and joys)
- Restructure the lines of authority (only one head of the church, Jesus Christ - roles for friends and overseers, no longer under authority of any man)
- Accountability and transparency in money matters
|
|
|
Post by mrdobalina on May 13, 2023 3:46:13 GMT -5
The secret to success is to copy a successful formula, there's plenty out there to copy, or they could "patch over" like biker gangs do & amalgamate with an existing church of their liking.
|
|
|
Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 13, 2023 3:53:09 GMT -5
The secret to success is to copy a successful formula, there's plenty out there to copy, or they could "patch over" like biker gangs do & amalgamate with an existing church of their liking. Brilliant. They would fit in well with the Hells Angels.
|
|
|
Post by mrdobalina on May 13, 2023 5:19:33 GMT -5
The secret to success is to copy a successful formula, there's plenty out there to copy, or they could "patch over" like biker gangs do & amalgamate with an existing church of their liking. Brilliant. They would fit in well with the Hells Angels. I'm not so sure. I suspect the HA would be very unlikely to sweep csa under the mat if it was discovered amongst their ranks.
|
|
|
Post by mountain on May 13, 2023 5:21:24 GMT -5
Brilliant. They would fit in well with the Hells Angels. I'm not so sure. I suspect the HA would be very unlikely to sweep csa under the mat if it was discovered amongst their ranks. It would certainly get swept under their tyres..........after an initiation ceremony!
|
|
|
Post by jonathan on May 13, 2023 5:37:53 GMT -5
We simply have to get rif of all abusers. Only way to have no abuse.
When new abuse comes to light, nip it in the bud and ask the abuser to please leave the fellowship.
The house is being cleaned now, and then we have to keep it clean.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on May 13, 2023 6:09:02 GMT -5
We simply have to get rif of all abusers. Only way to have no abuse. When new abuse comes to light, nip it in the bud and ask the abuser to please leave the fellowship. The house is being cleaned now, and then we have to keep it clean. Most importantly, don't give them a position of responsibility ever. They should leave the work permanently and not be made an elder a few years later. They should confess to the church so that everyone knows they have offended and shouldn't be trusted around children.
|
|
|
Post by jonathan on May 13, 2023 7:07:01 GMT -5
We simply have to get rif of all abusers. Only way to have no abuse. When new abuse comes to light, nip it in the bud and ask the abuser to please leave the fellowship. The house is being cleaned now, and then we have to keep it clean. Most importantly, don't give them a position of responsibility ever. They should leave the work permanently and not be made an elder a few years later. They should confess to the church so that everyone knows they have offended and shouldn't be trusted around children. The suggestion of knowledgeable professionals, like Matt Smith, should be followed so the fellowship can be safe. www.advocatesforthetruth.com/updates/gk9ahgtdmiriutioqgzb7dxyb5xba4
|
|
|
Post by Umfolozi on May 13, 2023 7:53:33 GMT -5
For Jeremy and Leonie.
- Follow the 1 century example, multipul elders in each church/ meeting, they are the leadership, responsible only for their own church/meeting(this will help with accountability,transparency) As others have said, no head over them, God is the head, His Word and the laws of the country their authority -As others have said, preach God's Gospel (we are saved by God's grace because of Jesus sacrifice on the cross and our faith in Jesus sacrifice, its a gift, no one can boast, works will come after we have been saved to prove if we are indeed saved) - As others have said, accountability and transparency regarding money.Each church should be responsible for their own money matters. - All diciples of God should preach the Gospel in their different capacities, as in Acts(diciples, prophets, apostles, married people ect.) married preachers can do so from their own home. Each church/meeting is responsible for their preacher's conduct and issue's should be addressed by them. - Any issue's in the local church/ meeting should be addressed by their leadership with the Bible as their ultimate authority and decisions made by consensus. - Issues amongst believers should be handled strictly according to Jesus teachings in the Gospels. - Collecting for charity should be done on a regular basis as we see Paul did, donations should be handled by the leadership with accountability and transparency. - No more proffesing, follow the example set forth in Acts, if someone wants to become a Christian the local leadership can handle this. - The local church can handle the spreading of the Gospel in their community. Each church/meeting should be actively involved in their community. -Spread the Gospel to the outcast, follow Jesus example of truely reaching the outcast even though this is contrary to our human nature(taking the path of least resistance) - Workers that don't have the GIFT of celibacy should marry and preach the Gospel in that capacity as we see in Acts with Philip. -Still support the workers/ preachers that have the gift of celibacy as Paul, but they need to go to places that truely have a need not just stay local, follow Paul's example. - Workers that are capable should get a job as Paul did to support themselves and those less fortunate and live on their own not with the friends. - Minimize workers continually staying with friends, in the 1 century churches I am sure the preacher's stayed with the Christians as needed but no were do I read that they stayed with them on a continues basis. -How about making the Lord's supper less formal, have it as a potluck meal with time for singing and sharing God's Word. The early Christians had it as a meal.
|
|
|
Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 13, 2023 14:15:23 GMT -5
Brilliant. They would fit in well with the Hells Angels. I'm not so sure. I suspect the HA would be very unlikely to sweep csa under the mat if it was discovered amongst their ranks. Good point, how about the Magog Motorcycle Club. Very biblical name.
|
|
|
Post by snow on May 13, 2023 15:08:43 GMT -5
We simply have to get rif of all abusers. Only way to have no abuse. When new abuse comes to light, nip it in the bud and ask the abuser to please leave the fellowship. The house is being cleaned now, and then we have to keep it clean. How do you do that though. They are extremely good at hiding in plain sight!
|
|
|
Post by mrdobalina on May 13, 2023 15:34:10 GMT -5
I'm not so sure. I suspect the HA would be very unlikely to sweep csa under the mat if it was discovered amongst their ranks. Good point, how about the Magog Motorcycle Club. Very biblical name. The 'naki lads, that's where all the Laverda's ended up.
|
|
|
Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 13, 2023 16:12:40 GMT -5
Good point, how about the Magog Motorcycle Club. Very biblical name. The 'naki lads, that's where all the Laverda's ended up. There used to be a guy called Tex who had a Rocket Three. Beautiful bike. In my day they mainly had the usual British stuff. Most of which we confiscated and ran the gearbox and engine numbers through an xray machine at a lab. Most were stolen and not what the rego said they were. Later, he became known as Foreskin Fred.
|
|
|
Post by mountain on May 13, 2023 17:55:36 GMT -5
We simply have to get rif of all abusers. Only way to have no abuse. When new abuse comes to light, nip it in the bud and ask the abuser to please leave the fellowship. The house is being cleaned now, and then we have to keep it clean. In order for that to work, the 2x2 system needs to introduce radical changes in how the ministry operates in order to reduce opportunity for abuses/offences to occur along with reducing commensurate temptations. The practice of workers staying in the homes of unrelated members of the laity where children and other vulnerable persons may reside needs to be ceased forthwith. That would be a start, but many other practices within the fellowship need to be identified and similarly addressed. In short, the whole system requires redesigned.
|
|
|
Post by mrdobalina on May 13, 2023 17:59:51 GMT -5
We simply have to get rif of all abusers. Only way to have no abuse. When new abuse comes to light, nip it in the bud and ask the abuser to please leave the fellowship. The house is being cleaned now, and then we have to keep it clean. In order for that to work, the 2x2 system needs to introduce radical changes in how the ministry operates in order to reduce opportunity for abuses/offences to occur along with reducing commensurate temptations. The practice of workers staying in the homes of unrelated members of the laity where children and other vulnerable persons may reside needs to be ceased forthwith. That would be a start, but many other practices within the fellowship need to be identified and similarly addressed. In short, the whole system requires redesigned. The one that hit close to me was a 2x2 elder that molested his own grand daughter in his home. Did he do it because of the culture of his religion, or is it unrelated.
|
|
|
Post by openingact34 on May 13, 2023 18:03:15 GMT -5
We simply have to get rif of all abusers. Only way to have no abuse. When new abuse comes to light, nip it in the bud and ask the abuser to please leave the fellowship. The house is being cleaned now, and then we have to keep it clean. In order for that to work, the 2x2 system needs to introduce radical changes in how the ministry operates in order to reduce opportunity for abuses/offences to occur along with reducing commensurate temptations. The practice of workers staying in the homes of unrelated members of the laity where children and other vulnerable persons may reside needs to be ceased forthwith. That would be a start, but many other practices within the fellowship need to be identified and similarly addressed. In short, the whole system requires redesigned. The workers were pretty good at cleaning up homes and finding who had a hidden TV or makeup. Just have them pray about finding predators instead of mascara or stereos.
|
|
|
Post by mod5 on May 13, 2023 19:09:25 GMT -5
For Jeremy and Leonie: - Preach the NT gospel of grace (see mod5's post professing.proboards.com/post/1048854/thread )
- Scrap exclusivism (this goes hand-in-glove with the first point - gospel of salvation by grace alone through faith in Christ)
- Do away with mandatory celibacy in the ministry
- Allow married workers (the friends are well able to support married workers, think of benefits including lived experience of family responsibilities and joys)
- Restructure the lines of authority (only one head of the church, Jesus Christ - roles for friends and overseers, no longer under authority of any man)
- Accountability and transparency in money matters
Well said If those suggestions were implemented it would not only help to clean up the ministry, but would make it more biblical. The workers need to focus more on Jesus and less on themselves.
|
|
|
Post by jonathan on May 13, 2023 23:15:41 GMT -5
We simply have to get rif of all abusers. Only way to have no abuse. When new abuse comes to light, nip it in the bud and ask the abuser to please leave the fellowship. The house is being cleaned now, and then we have to keep it clean. How do you do that though. They are extremely good at hiding in plain sight! Once it is known that someone is an abuser, don't cover them up.
|
|
|
Post by Dan on May 14, 2023 0:42:01 GMT -5
May 9, 2023 Dear Folks, List of possible changes: These are suggestions and we ask for your input please: 1.No more Overseers as we know it. The oversight of the Ministry be both Servant and Saint (men and women). Elders and Overseers are interchangeable in the New Testament. This will promote balance, accountability and transparency. 2. Accountability and transparency of how Ministry money is spent and a return to living by Faith. 3. Do away with the “culture of conformance” (as opposed to following Doctrine) and fear of being sidelined or ostracized. 4. Keep an active watch against Cultism. The Ministry culture of male dominance, power and weaponization of fear must stop. The latter should apply to the friends as well. 5.Administrative and planning meetings to not be held by Overseers only, but a combination of Servant and Saint. 6. Convention time workers’ meetings to include Elders and Deacons. We need transparency, not secrecy. 7. New workers be screened for suitability. 8. Life experience – paid rent, held down a job, etc. [No] Criminal past. The work should not be a place for people who have no other options, as this becomes a natural reason applied to a sacred calling. Workers are not immune to being questioned about their actions. - this should be about open, transparent and constructive communication in the Spirit of Christ. The Spirit of Christ does no harm to a neighbour, so a culture that results in so many traumatized friends and workers both male and female, needs to be urgently addressed. Stay away from politics and socio-political issues. Other thoughts: I personally don't think a plethora of new rules are necessary, nor will the ones listed stop the problem.. Sounds like an over-complicated regiment of rules that fix nothing.
1. Somebody has got to be at the top, no organization is efficient with no one taking charge or calling the shots. Everybody can't be in charge, that would be a chaotic mess.
2. Financial transparency will never be itemized, and basically, we already know how money is spent. Return to living by Faith? When did that ever stop?
3. The doctrine is conformance.. Members will be sidelined for inappropriate behavior. 4. Male dominance will continue because its biblical.
5. Everyone can't schedule & plan meetings, coordinating dates can't be a free for all, there's always circumstances and contingencies that require changes. 6. There are always private matters that make total transparency impossible. 7. Who determines what makes a new Worker suitable? 8. I do agree that some real life experience should be a prerequisite to entering the Work, that has already been a requirement for many of them.
These rules don't address or stop sexual abuse. Other suggestions such as Workers being allowed to marry are ridiculous, not allowing them to be in homes with children is also impractical.
|
|
|
Post by mountain on May 14, 2023 4:59:36 GMT -5
I personally don't think a plethora of new rules are necessary, nor will the ones listed stop the problem.. Sounds like an over-complicated regiment of rules that fix nothing.
1. Somebody has got to be at the top, no organization is efficient with no one taking charge or calling the shots. Everybody can't be in charge, that would be a chaotic mess.
2. Financial transparency will never be itemized, and basically, we already know how money is spent. Return to living by Faith? When did that ever stop?
3. The doctrine is conformance.. Members will be sidelined for inappropriate behavior. 4. Male dominance will continue because its biblical.
5. Everyone can't schedule & plan meetings, coordinating dates can't be a free for all, there's always circumstances and contingencies that require changes. 6. There are always private matters that make total transparency impossible. 7. Who determines what makes a new Worker suitable? 8. I do agree that some real life experience should be a prerequisite to entering the Work, that has already been a requirement for many of them.
These rules don't address or stop sexual abuse. Other suggestions such as Workers being allowed to marry are ridiculous, not allowing them to be in homes with children is also impractical.
Hi Dan, Do you mean just visiting homes with children, or do you mean actually staying in homes with children?
|
|
|
Post by mountain on May 14, 2023 5:01:39 GMT -5
In order for that to work, the 2x2 system needs to introduce radical changes in how the ministry operates in order to reduce opportunity for abuses/offences to occur along with reducing commensurate temptations. The practice of workers staying in the homes of unrelated members of the laity where children and other vulnerable persons may reside needs to be ceased forthwith. That would be a start, but many other practices within the fellowship need to be identified and similarly addressed. In short, the whole system requires redesigned. The one that hit close to me was a 2x2 elder that molested his own grand daughter in his home. Did he do it because of the culture of his religion, or is it unrelated. Personally I wouldn't be associating this with religious culture, but down to the nature of the man. These things are not all that uncommon.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 14, 2023 11:21:22 GMT -5
In order for that to work, the 2x2 system needs to introduce radical changes in how the ministry operates in order to reduce opportunity for abuses/offences to occur along with reducing commensurate temptations. The practice of workers staying in the homes of unrelated members of the laity where children and other vulnerable persons may reside needs to be ceased forthwith. That would be a start, but many other practices within the fellowship need to be identified and similarly addressed. In short, the whole system requires redesigned. The one that hit close to me was a 2x2 elder that molested his own grand daughter in his home. Did he do it because of the culture of his religion, or is it unrelated. Pedo's are born that way or made that way. For those born with it culture, religion nor politics matter.
|
|
|
Post by Dan on May 14, 2023 12:31:01 GMT -5
I personally don't think a plethora of new rules are necessary, nor will the ones listed stop the problem.. Sounds like an over-complicated regiment of rules that fix nothing.
1. Somebody has got to be at the top, no organization is efficient with no one taking charge or calling the shots. Everybody can't be in charge, that would be a chaotic mess.
2. Financial transparency will never be itemized, and basically, we already know how money is spent. Return to living by Faith? When did that ever stop?
3. The doctrine is conformance.. Members will be sidelined for inappropriate behavior. 4. Male dominance will continue because its biblical.
5. Everyone can't schedule & plan meetings, coordinating dates can't be a free for all, there's always circumstances and contingencies that require changes. 6. There are always private matters that make total transparency impossible. 7. Who determines what makes a new Worker suitable? 8. I do agree that some real life experience should be a prerequisite to entering the Work, that has already been a requirement for many of them.
These rules don't address or stop sexual abuse. Other suggestions such as Workers being allowed to marry are ridiculous, not allowing them to be in homes with children is also impractical.
Hi Dan, Do you mean just visiting homes with children, or do you mean actually staying in homes with children?
I meant prohibiting Workers from staying (over night) in homes with children is over-kill to the maximum. We use to enjoy the visits, and as kids we had the opportunity to ask lots of questions over the dinner table. They were good examples and inspired us.
The apostles weren't restricted from homes with children, you can't eliminate half the homes for Workers. (Mark 10:30)
But as I previously mentioned, commonsense dictates that an individual Worker should never be alone with a child, for the protection and safety of both the child and the Worker/Elder.
Just as you don't see single male workers staying with single female widows, or women Workers staying with single men. No ones reputation can be imputed that way, rumors and gossip are avoided too.
Jesus sent them out in pairs for a reason, this automatically implements oversight. The Dean Bruer incidence occurred when he was alone with a woman or child, the objective should be to abstain from isolated situations such as he arranged.
My point was that the massive change from dozens of unnecessary rules would change the Truth. The church in Corinth did not dictate to Paul how things would be run. Workers are the ministry and must remain in charge.
My suggestion to avoid CSA is simple; No single Worker can be left alone with a child (under 16), even though 99% could be completed trusted.
That's just my simple solution, but of course I live by the motto KISS (keep it simple stupid)
|
|
|
Post by snow on May 14, 2023 13:28:57 GMT -5
How do you do that though. They are extremely good at hiding in plain sight! Once it is known that someone is an abuser, don't cover them up. Yes that's a good start. But some training in recognizing predators before they commit their abuse would also be helpful. There are many companies out there that train people to recognize the signs and underline just how important it is to listen to your gut instincts. Gavin de Becker is one such person in the US that offers training. gdba.com/
|
|
|
Post by shipwreckedsailor on May 14, 2023 14:26:12 GMT -5
For Jeremy and Leonie: - Preach the NT gospel of grace (see mod5 's post professing.proboards.com/post/1048854/thread )
- Scrap exclusivism (this goes hand-in-glove with the first point - gospel of salvation by grace alone through faith in Christ)
- Do away with mandatory celibacy in the ministry
- Allow married workers (the friends are well able to support married workers, think of benefits including lived experience of family responsibilities and joys)
- Restructure the lines of authority (only one head of the church, Jesus Christ - roles for friends and overseers, no longer under authority of any man)
- Accountability and transparency in money matters
I honestly wonder if the 2x2 will survive if they "scrap exclusivism".
|
|
|
Post by openingact34 on May 14, 2023 15:37:08 GMT -5
For Jeremy and Leonie: - Preach the NT gospel of grace (see mod5 's post professing.proboards.com/post/1048854/thread )
- Scrap exclusivism (this goes hand-in-glove with the first point - gospel of salvation by grace alone through faith in Christ)
- Do away with mandatory celibacy in the ministry
- Allow married workers (the friends are well able to support married workers, think of benefits including lived experience of family responsibilities and joys)
- Restructure the lines of authority (only one head of the church, Jesus Christ - roles for friends and overseers, no longer under authority of any man)
- Accountability and transparency in money matters
I honestly wonder if the 2x2 will survive if they "scrap exclusivism". They shouldn't have to. At its core, Christianity is all about threatening people with hell and eternal torture. Some groups like the 2x2s are more exclusive, and say that everybody outside our fellowship will burn. Other groups draw the boundaries more broadly and say that certain groups of Christians will be saved but Catholics, Mormons, and JWs will burn in hell. Other liberal churches think that all Christians can be saved but the majority of the planet that is non Christian will burn and be tortured eternally. How big you draw the box seems like a rather secondary issue. Followers of Jesus are all exclusive in some way that always have a group of "others" they can point out that deserve everlasting torture for the thought crimes of not believing the right thing.
|
|
|
Post by snow on May 14, 2023 16:00:55 GMT -5
I honestly wonder if the 2x2 will survive if they "scrap exclusivism". They shouldn't have to. At its core, Christianity is all about threatening people with hell and eternal torture. Some groups like the 2x2s are more exclusive, and say that everybody outside our fellowship will burn. Other groups draw the boundaries more broadly and say that certain groups of Christians will be saved but Catholics, Mormons, and JWs will burn in hell. Other liberal churches think that all Christians can be saved but the majority of the planet that is non Christian will burn and be tortured eternally. How big you draw the box seems like a rather secondary issue. Followers of Jesus are all exclusive in some way that always have a group of "others" they can point out that deserve everlasting torture for the thought crimes of not believing the right thing. Isn't that the truth! It all depends how big you draw the box as you say. There are Christians that believe that anyone, no matter what religion or non religion can be saved, but there isn't many. Most would say you have to at least be a Christian to give your life to Jesus.
|
|