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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2023 17:59:29 GMT -5
That would not be accurate at all. Your transparent attempts speak for themselves. No it wasn't, it never stopped even with his death. Except for the brief scattering of the sheep at Christs death (he showed up and told them to get busy again) for a few days there is no record of them ever saying, okay done now let's go home, Our work is done, nothing left to do etc etc... its continued since the 1st century...it was never short term. There is no different message, different method or a different purpose. Your mind is too clouded to see that. Too bad. You disagreed about bearing fruit and the consequences of not doing so. You were very wrong. You've been out too long and telling yourself these things to justify your leaving for whatever reason. Been there done that. You are not exclusive? You definitely exclude (want it terminated even) the Truth from Christianity. But the Truth can't exclude any other version of Christianity? There is a word for that, it's called hypocrite. You don't have to belong to the 2x2's to find salvation. It's the best Christian method not the only method. Not all 60,000+ denominations are right though and certainly not some individuals. You deride the truth and anyone in about their Christian understanding, you even wrote a non-friendly to 2x2 book about them, why is that? Doesn't feel good does it when you are not the one doing the kicking. The workers have the attitude that their work is done. No evangelizing and just visiting their own. Reminds me of Irvine who went to Jerusalem to await the Lord's return. What are the workers sitting waiting for? What is the purpose of workers these days? None, they are just bishops over the existing flock. Where are the evangelists, missionaries, apostles or those like the early workers? The ministry has died out. Wally says the workers ministry is the best way. It's far from the best way, in fact it's the worst way. Time has proven that. We can see it's fruit and lack of. Did Jesus change the method of going out penniless as Matthew 10 states. Yes the verses around and including Luke 22 v 36 show that Jesus changed it when he went to the Cross and would no longer be with them. He was clear in his instructions which the workers ignore Now take purse scrip, sword etc That doesn't appear to be happening here. I doubt you know the comings and goings of all workers. No, I said the denomination is the best way and quite clearly for several years on here. Pay attention... That would be Jesus's call not you or anyone else's.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2023 18:05:06 GMT -5
Often workers stay in apartments in some countries. I've heard it happened in some 3rd world countries. Bangladesh for example. Rent is paid for by the friends and ministry. In Bangladesh the rent is about 100us a month. That is really low and is that way in a lot of 3rd world countries. America or other western countries? Starts around 1500us per month and up for a mortgage or rent of even a small 2 bedroom home/apt.
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Post by Admin on May 16, 2023 18:24:26 GMT -5
Dan, a Christian is one who believes in Jesus for salvation. If they just follow Jesus as a nice moral example they have missed the entire point of the entire Bible. We cannot keep the same commandments, because Jesus perfectly fulfilled the law (which is what he came to do). Which is precisely what we cannot do. We obey the commandments of God because we are saved, not to be saved. " We obey the commandments of God because we are saved, not to be saved.' That could be a good quotable quote . Remember that the House of Israel was scattered all over the place after the northern 10 tribes were conquered by the Assyrians and later intermarried, migrated, and assimilated into various countries. They were placed in the area of the Caucasus Mountains to the North of their Homeland. After 100 years those Israelites became known as Caucasians and that's been their identity ever since. So the limited scope of the House of Israel was actually quite extensive. According to Jesus, the gospel had to published and preached to every nation.
Jesus fulfilled the law but that doesn't make us exempt from the law, the commandments still matter. What he eliminated was the curse (penalty) of the law, but as Paul wrote, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid" (Romans 3:31). While I believe we are saved via Grace through faith, I also believe James, "Faith without works is dead". Jesus also warned of those who "Draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Mat 15:8-9). And Paul warned, "Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things." (Philippians3: 17-19)
And that, I reckon, pretty much puts elizabethcoleman and Dan on the same page Well done guys!
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2023 18:26:36 GMT -5
That would not be accurate at all. Your transparent attempts speak for themselves. No it wasn't, it never stopped even with his death. Except for the brief scattering of the sheep at Christs death (he showed up and told them to get busy again) for a few days there is no record of them ever saying, okay done now let's go home, Our work is done, nothing left to do etc etc... its continued since the 1st century...it was never short term. There is no different message, different method or a different purpose. Your mind is too clouded to see that. Too bad. You disagreed about bearing fruit and the consequences of not doing so. You were very wrong. You've been out too long and telling yourself these things to justify your leaving for whatever reason. Been there done that. You are not exclusive? You definitely exclude (want it terminated even) the Truth from Christianity. But the Truth can't exclude any other version of Christianity? There is a word for that, it's called hypocrite. You don't have to belong to the 2x2's to find salvation. It's the best Christian method not the only method. Not all 60,000+ denominations are right though and certainly not some individuals. You deride the truth and anyone in about their Christian understanding, you even wrote a non-friendly to 2x2 book about them, why is that? Doesn't feel good does it when you are not the one doing the kicking. I've excluded the Truth from Chrisitianty? That's surely a joke. Irvine separated the group from the Christianity long ago and you follow in his footsteps. Yep, different message, different method, different purpose. During Christ's ministry: Method - Going out on a short term mission with a short term message. Taking no luggage, money to make haste and show God's provision. These instructions given to a specific small group of people only. Message - "The Kingdom of heaven has come near"Purpose - To go first to the House of Israel, as prophesied. To go only to the places Jesus himself was about to go. To witness to the power of the Christ who had come - authority over spirits, healing every disease and sickness. After Christ's ministry: Method: - Go out into all the world. Take whatever you need. Message - "We preach Christ crucified"Purpose - Make disciples of all nations (Jews and Gentiles). If you'd actually read my book you'd know I don't deride the faith of those in the 'truth'. You speak from pure ignorance. But now I remember why there's no point talking to you. Stupid me. Same spirit as Review. Carry on. You seem to still have wax plugging your ears, I'm not exclusive and some others are not either. Especially those in mixed religious marriages. Nope, not short term it never ended. It just adopted gentiles into the to the list of folks that needed to hear the gospel. Nope there is no different message, method or purpose. It's about Christ bottom line. The gospels don't say anything different than any of the rest of the books of the NT. If there is a different message/purpose you should ignore it and run the other way. Thats not what I said, gaslighting won't help you at all. I said YOU deride, one has to go only a few posts back to see that in action, I said your book is unfriendly which would go hand in hand with the derision. You don't consider the Truth to be part of Christianity or biblical you said that a few times here. Or are you confused now? I'll agree with your stupid remark, that's progress of a sort. Have a great day.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2023 18:28:25 GMT -5
" We obey the commandments of God because we are saved, not to be saved.' That could be a good quotable quote . Remember that the House of Israel was scattered all over the place after the northern 10 tribes were conquered by the Assyrians and later intermarried, migrated, and assimilated into various countries. They were placed in the area of the Caucasus Mountains to the North of their Homeland. After 100 years those Israelites became known as Caucasians and that's been their identity ever since. So the limited scope of the House of Israel was actually quite extensive. According to Jesus, the gospel had to published and preached to every nation.
Jesus fulfilled the law but that doesn't make us exempt from the law, the commandments still matter. What he eliminated was the curse (penalty) of the law, but as Paul wrote, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid" (Romans 3:31). While I believe we are saved via Grace through faith, I also believe James, "Faith without works is dead". Jesus also warned of those who "Draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Mat 15:8-9). And Paul warned, "Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things." (Philippians3: 17-19)
And that, I reckon, pretty much puts elizabethcoleman and Dan on the same page Well done guys!
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Post by BobWilliston on May 18, 2023 0:04:04 GMT -5
There was a couple of workers on the west coast who got married and continued to preach, have a family, and manage a household. Unusual. Never heard of that before? How did they manage a household? They could not have been itinerantly preaching in different fields if they lived in one spot? Who paid their bills and were the kids constantly changing schools? I'm guessing that arrangement didn't last too long.
They weren't itinerant, obviously. I've been told that some of the friends did give them money, and it seems the husband did have some paid work income, but I always found it strange that they were allowed to operate like that. I don't know of any other married workers who were not itinerant.
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Post by BobWilliston on May 18, 2023 0:05:27 GMT -5
Its not my position, its just that marriage isn't practical the way the ministry is set up. Catholic Priest have their own residence and aren't in constant travel mode, so it would be more workable for them to have a spouse than for a Worker. But the Truth won't change, Jesus didn't marry and Paul said that it would be better not to marry, probably because it would be a distraction and not conducive to the life style of an itinerant preacher. But then again, I'd rather have a pair of married Workers who lusted for each rather than sexually harass their parishioners . But they believe in separating themselves from the world, leaving fleshly desires behind, and surrendering all for the gospel sake. Never heard of that before? How did they manage a household? They could not have been itinerantly preaching in different fields if they lived in one spot? Who paid their bills and were the kids constantly changing schools? I'm guessing that arrangement didn't last too long.
The Christies might be who he is talking about. They labored in Hawaii with 2 kids in tow I believe. Not ideal. It was the Christies.
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Post by BobWilliston on May 18, 2023 0:12:16 GMT -5
Often workers stay in apartments in some countries. I've heard it happened in some 3rd world countries. Bangladesh for example. Rent is paid for by the friends and ministry. They have an apartment in Paris, which I think is common in much of Europe. We got a hotel room nearby when we went to visit him there.
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Post by getreal on May 18, 2023 0:41:24 GMT -5
This is so interesting. Workers literally everywhere but the us, canada, Australia and New Zealand and Britain and parts of Scandinavia I think live in their own accommodations. Is this really not commonly known? The only question here is could it work in the countries named above. It might be a good move for now. Does anyone with children want male workers in their homes or even sisters who have been silent and are complicit? Workers need a strong message sent to them, in my opinion. Even if, no friends donate at this point there is still plenty of money to set them up in rental lodging. And, this might be a shock, there are too many workers anyway. The interest just isn’t there. The fields in many cases could be much larger. Friends are dwindling. Yes rents are higher in these countries but fewer workers…it pencils out. The lodgings workers use overseas are used year to year by different workers. Sometimes they move the Bach to a new location. They are still itinerant, don’t own homes. Workers here are not homeless. They move from home to home. In the same vein the church rents and owns conv sites. To try to differentiate any of these scenarios is difficult to say the least. In a rented space they are apart of a community. More apt to meet people. It’s healthier for all. And yes those who choose to Marry could still be workers. Its a win, win. Food for thought at least.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2023 0:48:13 GMT -5
This is so interesting. Workers literally everywhere but the us, canada, Australia and New Zealand and Britain and parts of Scandinavia I think live in their own accommodations. Is this really not commonly known? The only question here is could it work in the countries named above. It might be a good move for now. Does anyone with children want male workers in their homes or even sisters who have been silent and are complicit? Workers need a strong message sent to them, in my opinion. Even if, no friends donate at this point there is still plenty of money to set them up in rental lodging. And, this might be a shock, there are too many workers anyway. The interest just isn’t there. The fields in many cases could be much larger. Friends are dwindling. Yes rents are higher in these countries but fewer workers…it pencils out. The lodgings workers use overseas are used year to year by different workers. Sometimes they move the Bach to a new location. They are still itinerant, don’t own homes. Workers here are not homeless. They move from home to home. In the same vein the church rents and owns conv sites. To try to differentiate any of these scenarios is difficult to say the least. In a rented space they are apart of a community. More apt to meet people. It’s healthier for all. And yes those who choose to Marry could still be workers. Its a win, win. Food for thought at least. Yes, it's known they are called baches or baching...we have some in the more remote areas of Washington state.
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Post by jonathan on May 18, 2023 0:50:12 GMT -5
Often workers stay in apartments in some countries. I've heard it happened in some 3rd world countries. Bangladesh for example. Rent is paid for by the friends and ministry. They have an apartment in Paris, which I think is common in much of Europe. We got a hotel room nearby when we went to visit him there. It often is necessary if there aren't friends in am area who the workers can stay with. In some communist countries foreigners have to register their residence with authorities. Some times some suburbs or villages wouldn't allow it. In some third world countries the friends simply are too poor. Some don't have space as the family already fills the floor of their one-room home. Baches aren't ideal, but if done properly can serve a good purpose. Again, it comes down to workers with integrity conducting themselves honourably. Heard of a few instances where as soon as the friends could afford to, they asked the workers to stay with them. Some instances the friends can't have the workers all the time, so the workers try to spread the load as much as possible, and use the bach for the balance of the time. One instance I know if the friends reached the point where they were very happy to tell the workers to close the bach. In my time in the work do far, I've seen both sides. First world and third world. Each have their own unique set of both privileges and challenges. Thankfully, God gives the need grace and wisdom!
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Post by getreal on May 18, 2023 1:12:48 GMT -5
There is no need for it to be all one or the other as you say, just as needs be. Think if the workers were free like in the beginning to launch out to new places, stay, have meetings. Think of the workers going forth again and actually trying new places instead of just camping out where the friends mostly are, having meetings in the same halls year after year. You might as well own a church building. Finding places to rent for larger groups is getting more difficult too. And expensive. Becoming itinerant in the truest sense of the word again. Going where the spirit moves. Its not that now. Think how reinvigorating it could be to the church as a whole. The friends don’t have to have a gospel meeting within reach always. Sometimes we had gospel meetings in farther away places and a few friends enjoyed making the journey occasionally. It inspires people. It feels more alive. Sitting around in friends homes is not what god intended in my opinion.
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Post by fixit on May 18, 2023 2:07:27 GMT -5
And, this might be a shock, there are too many workers anyway. The interest just isn’t there. Interest in what?
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Post by getreal on May 18, 2023 13:11:09 GMT -5
Outside interest. Workers are so isolated. That is a problem in itself. Its not healthy. Workers rely on the friends to being neighbors and acquaintances. For those wanting to get back to the ‘beginning’ this is not it. In the infancy and early childhood of the movement workers went forth, they entered towns and visited farms and got little jobs so they could have a bed to sleep in, famously even straw in a barn. That’s where the pet name of worker comes from. They worked. It was different. Hard working people particularly appreciated their sincerity and simplicity. And so it goes to today where workers go from converts home to converts home. Requesting 2 rooms so they do not have to share. (I had trouble sleeping in the work so I understand this. It is hard on a person mentally and physically to move every 2 nights. It is not what was meant by being itinerant). How do you meet people. Your life is just so strange. It is hard to relate to people anymore. If I could have accessed information about this group would I have joined? Don’t think so. After all this csa and sa and other problems get more exposure the trickle of outside interest will dwindle further. I remember workers saying how their message attracted the cream of the crop. That hasn’t been so for a long, long time. Kind of an odd thing to gloat over anyway.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 19, 2023 2:27:00 GMT -5
Outside interest. Workers are so isolated. That is a problem in itself. Its not healthy. Workers rely on the friends to being neighbors and acquaintances. For those wanting to get back to the ‘beginning’ this is not it. In the infancy and early childhood of the movement workers went forth, they entered towns and visited farms and got little jobs so they could have a bed to sleep in, famously even straw in a barn. That’s where the pet name of worker comes from. They worked. It was different. Hard working people particularly appreciated their sincerity and simplicity. And so it goes to today where workers go from converts home to converts home. Requesting 2 rooms so they do not have to share. (I had trouble sleeping in the work so I understand this. It is hard on a person mentally and physically to move every 2 nights. It is not what was meant by being itinerant). How do you meet people. Your life is just so strange. It is hard to relate to people anymore. If I could have accessed information about this group would I have joined? Don’t think so. After all this csa and sa and other problems get more exposure the trickle of outside interest will dwindle further. I remember workers saying how their message attracted the cream of the crop. That hasn’t been so for a long, long time. Kind of an odd thing to gloat over anyway. Your "cream of the crop" reminded me of an older elder in my hometown who insisted on going to a convention more than 8 hours drive away because it "attracted a better class of saint, as it were". The first and only time my family went there (I think we had to choose convention timing to fit with Dad's work schedule), he congratulated us on choosing to be with the better class of saint. I was very puzzled by this at the time, but now have a good laugh every time I remember it, and it has become a classic family saying amongst my family who have left. PS - I really commiserate with the sleeping issue. I always sleep badly the first night in a new place/bed. As a lifestyle, I cannot imagine!!
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Post by lk1243 on May 19, 2023 13:19:34 GMT -5
For Jeremy and Leonie. - Follow the 1 century example, multipul elders in each church/ meeting, they are the leadership, responsible only for their own church/meeting(this will help with accountability,transparency) As others have said, no head over them, God is the head, His Word and the laws of the country their authority -As others have said, preach God's Gospel (we are saved by God's grace because of Jesus sacrifice on the cross and our faith in Jesus sacrifice, its a gift, no one can boast, works will come after we have been saved to prove if we are indeed saved) - As others have said, accountability and transparency regarding money.Each church should be responsible for their own money matters. - All diciples of God should preach the Gospel in their different capacities, as in Acts(diciples, prophets, apostles, married people ect.) married preachers can do so from their own home. Each church/meeting is responsible for their preacher's conduct and issue's should be addressed by them. - Any issue's in the local church/ meeting should be addressed by their leadership with the Bible as their ultimate authority and decisions made by consensus. - Issues amongst believers should be handled strictly according to Jesus teachings in the Gospels. - Collecting for charity should be done on a regular basis as we see Paul did, donations should be handled by the leadership with accountability and transparency. - No more proffesing, follow the example set forth in Acts, if someone wants to become a Christian the local leadership can handle this. - The local church can handle the spreading of the Gospel in their community. Each church/meeting should be actively involved in their community. -Spread the Gospel to the outcast, follow Jesus example of truely reaching the outcast even though this is contrary to our human nature(taking the path of least resistance) - Workers that don't have the GIFT of celibacy should marry and preach the Gospel in that capacity as we see in Acts with Philip. -Still support the workers/ preachers that have the gift of celibacy as Paul, but they need to go to places that truely have a need not just stay local, follow Paul's example. - Workers that are capable should get a job as Paul did to support themselves and those less fortunate and live on their own not with the friends. - Minimize workers continually staying with friends, in the 1 century churches I am sure the preacher's stayed with the Christians as needed but no were do I read that they stayed with them on a continues basis. -How about making the Lord's supper less formal, have it as a potluck meal with time for singing and sharing God's Word. The early Christians had it as a meal. The early Christians had Sunday meals together, but I don't think it's accurate to say that communion was built into a meal. As a ritual it had its own separate place.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2023 13:24:05 GMT -5
For Jeremy and Leonie. - Follow the 1 century example, multipul elders in each church/ meeting, they are the leadership, responsible only for their own church/meeting(this will help with accountability,transparency) As others have said, no head over them, God is the head, His Word and the laws of the country their authority -As others have said, preach God's Gospel (we are saved by God's grace because of Jesus sacrifice on the cross and our faith in Jesus sacrifice, its a gift, no one can boast, works will come after we have been saved to prove if we are indeed saved) - As others have said, accountability and transparency regarding money.Each church should be responsible for their own money matters. - All diciples of God should preach the Gospel in their different capacities, as in Acts(diciples, prophets, apostles, married people ect.) married preachers can do so from their own home. Each church/meeting is responsible for their preacher's conduct and issue's should be addressed by them. - Any issue's in the local church/ meeting should be addressed by their leadership with the Bible as their ultimate authority and decisions made by consensus. - Issues amongst believers should be handled strictly according to Jesus teachings in the Gospels. - Collecting for charity should be done on a regular basis as we see Paul did, donations should be handled by the leadership with accountability and transparency. - No more proffesing, follow the example set forth in Acts, if someone wants to become a Christian the local leadership can handle this. - The local church can handle the spreading of the Gospel in their community. Each church/meeting should be actively involved in their community. -Spread the Gospel to the outcast, follow Jesus example of truely reaching the outcast even though this is contrary to our human nature(taking the path of least resistance) - Workers that don't have the GIFT of celibacy should marry and preach the Gospel in that capacity as we see in Acts with Philip. -Still support the workers/ preachers that have the gift of celibacy as Paul, but they need to go to places that truely have a need not just stay local, follow Paul's example. - Workers that are capable should get a job as Paul did to support themselves and those less fortunate and live on their own not with the friends. - Minimize workers continually staying with friends, in the 1 century churches I am sure the preacher's stayed with the Christians as needed but no were do I read that they stayed with them on a continues basis. -How about making the Lord's supper less formal, have it as a potluck meal with time for singing and sharing God's Word. The early Christians had it as a meal. I'll agree to maybe 1/3 of this...
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Post by lk1243 on May 19, 2023 13:28:08 GMT -5
There have been a number of married couples in the work in the past. I don’t think, as has been explained to me, that it was abandoned because it couldn’t be reconciled with the Bible so much as it was just deemed to be impractical. The chosen MO moved away from renting a bach which made sense when they were still trying new areas where there were no friends to stay with or few friends where it would be a burden on them., to living full time with the friends. In hindsight, this was a mistake. But it was possible as the number of friends grew. The married version wasn’t as flexible perhaps and if a child came along even more so. That being said, it doesn’t mean a married couple version of workers couldn’t work again. Without children they are still very movable from field to field. They would have something unique to give in that they obviously would have more insight into real life. Missionaries get married and have children. They even get converts which is more than the workers do. After all isn't that what it's about or is it just sitting with their own flock and talking all day which is what the workers do. Hardly Biblical. It's good to have both. You're right that our existing missions are not highly productive by the numbers and that Stateside, it often doesn't seem like there are missions at all. Please talk to your local worker about what is going on in the field and what they are doing for missions--this is an accountability issue on the one hand and a screening issue on the other.
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Post by BobWilliston on May 19, 2023 22:57:53 GMT -5
For Jeremy and Leonie. - Follow the 1 century example, multipul elders in each church/ meeting, they are the leadership, responsible only for their own church/meeting(this will help with accountability,transparency) As others have said, no head over them, God is the head, His Word and the laws of the country their authority -As others have said, preach God's Gospel (we are saved by God's grace because of Jesus sacrifice on the cross and our faith in Jesus sacrifice, its a gift, no one can boast, works will come after we have been saved to prove if we are indeed saved) - As others have said, accountability and transparency regarding money.Each church should be responsible for their own money matters. - All diciples of God should preach the Gospel in their different capacities, as in Acts(diciples, prophets, apostles, married people ect.) married preachers can do so from their own home. Each church/meeting is responsible for their preacher's conduct and issue's should be addressed by them. - Any issue's in the local church/ meeting should be addressed by their leadership with the Bible as their ultimate authority and decisions made by consensus. - Issues amongst believers should be handled strictly according to Jesus teachings in the Gospels. - Collecting for charity should be done on a regular basis as we see Paul did, donations should be handled by the leadership with accountability and transparency. - No more proffesing, follow the example set forth in Acts, if someone wants to become a Christian the local leadership can handle this. - The local church can handle the spreading of the Gospel in their community. Each church/meeting should be actively involved in their community. -Spread the Gospel to the outcast, follow Jesus example of truely reaching the outcast even though this is contrary to our human nature(taking the path of least resistance) - Workers that don't have the GIFT of celibacy should marry and preach the Gospel in that capacity as we see in Acts with Philip. -Still support the workers/ preachers that have the gift of celibacy as Paul, but they need to go to places that truely have a need not just stay local, follow Paul's example. - Workers that are capable should get a job as Paul did to support themselves and those less fortunate and live on their own not with the friends. - Minimize workers continually staying with friends, in the 1 century churches I am sure the preacher's stayed with the Christians as needed but no were do I read that they stayed with them on a continues basis. -How about making the Lord's supper less formal, have it as a potluck meal with time for singing and sharing God's Word. The early Christians had it as a meal. The early Christians had Sunday meals together, but I don't think it's accurate to say that communion was built into a meal. As a ritual it had its own separate place. Why not? It was during a meal that Jesus instituted it.
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Post by mdm on May 20, 2023 12:25:43 GMT -5
And, this might be a shock, there are too many workers anyway. The interest just isn’t there. Interest in what? Good question. Someone from another country once asked us to get her in touch with workers. After meeting them, she was disappointed because all they talked about was the importance of the 2x2 ministry. We were a little disappointed as well. But that disappointment was nothing compared to the horror of finding out that a known child molester had been sent (from US) to that country. The horror that we were exposing our friend and potentially her family to the ministry that harbors child molesters and sends them around the globe where they can harm even more children in the name of the Gospel. The same thing happened in another country, on another continent - we connected another friend with a worker who was later revealed to have been sent there because of crimes committed in Australia. This one I can name publicly - Chris Chandler.
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Post by jonathan on May 20, 2023 15:24:10 GMT -5
And, this might be a shock, there are too many workers anyway. The interest just isn’t there. Interest in what? Not where we are! The last 3 and half months we had about 115 people over the age of 12 come and listen at least once, at one of the 16 places we've been having gospel mtgs. I accept this might be unusual compared to most other places, but we sure need more workers here.
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Post by fixit on May 20, 2023 15:33:58 GMT -5
The early Christians had Sunday meals together, but I don't think it's accurate to say that communion was built into a meal. As a ritual it had its own separate place. Did Jesus start a ritual?
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Post by fixit on May 20, 2023 16:00:36 GMT -5
I remember workers saying how their message attracted the cream of the crop. That hasn’t been so for a long, long time. Kind of an odd thing to gloat over anyway. It was probably a hangover from the early days. Goodhand Pattison seems like a good man and he wrote the following. From: www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_index/pattisong.phpAll this added freshness and life to the words of one whose intense earnestness and wholehearted zeal and devotion none of us had seen before, and no wonder that the Nenagh (certainly not at that time overburdened with much more than the merest husk and shell in religion) had some of its best type powerfully appealed to, and yielded quite a crop of decisions for God, the following being some of them: Miss Oakley, (who was then a teacher belonging to the Birr Oakleys and a sister of Mrs. Geo. Loney and cousin to Geo. Coughlan and Mrs. Williams of the hotel) E. Bradshaw, Allen Harkness and sister, Jack Carroll [footnote 6] and sister May; who were then living with their Uncle Pat, an exclusive Plym [Plymouth Brethren]; Dick Norman and a young man named Fred Hughes. This last named went with William Irvine for a little while shortly afterwards and played, sang, etc., also a young man named Wallace, and I think his sister, both from Templederry side, but then in situations in Nenagh. Probably there were others of whom I cannot now remember, and I have on purpose left out Mr. Robinson, who perhaps in more ways than one should almost come first; but I rather think that it was in William's second visit to Nenagh, some weeks after the first, that Mr. Robinson took his stand and seemed from the start to hold his first simplicity and freshness, right to the close of his life. Old Mr. Douglas (Presbyterian clergyman), his Colporteur Mr. Barber, and our evangelist Mr. Gilbert, were also very favorably impressed, in fact one may say "set on fire" to all appearance, but as we know, it is one thing to make a brave and flashy start, but another to continue and finish well. I believe, but am not quite sure, that from Nenagh's first visit William [Irvine] went to Rathmolyon [footnote 7], through the Carroll's introduction, where as you know he had another very successful mission, getting hold of nearly all the best type of character in the place, including the Gills [footnote 8], Carrolls [footnote 9], Hastings [footnote 10], Winters and others, and from there back to Nenagh a second time, after which he booked for here. [Cloughjordan]
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Post by Umfolozi on May 20, 2023 19:27:46 GMT -5
I sometimes think the New Testament is like the usa constitution, no offense please. You wish it had more detail. I appreciated what someone said earlier that Jesus didn’t really come to set up the structure of a church per se but to die for everyone and teach how to treat your fellow people. I just wonder if the spirit of the way things is done being as Jesus taught and showed is far more important than the exact form being ‘right’ so there is much room left for interpretation of that part. One could study, and parse, and split hairs forever but maybe the answers to the specifics will ever be far from us? But if the fruit is sick something is wrong with the tree and even maybe the root. We know that. With such fundamental and pervasive and serious problems one has to question the root. Married, not married, home or no home, meet in homes or rent a hall, conventions or no, dresses or no, buns or no, on and on and on ad nauseum. Isn’t it old and tired? Agree, and to make a devision amongst Christians because of these thing's that are not set in stone is serious! To call those outside the fellowship(that is what the meetings are period) unsaved=unrighteos judgement= sin that needs to be repented of.
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Post by getreal on May 20, 2023 20:09:03 GMT -5
I remember workers saying how their message attracted the cream of the crop. That hasn’t been so for a long, long time. Kind of an odd thing to gloat over anyway. It was probably a hangover from the early days. Goodhand Pattison seems like a good man and he wrote the following. From: www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_index/pattisong.phpAll this added freshness and life to the words of one whose intense earnestness and wholehearted zeal and devotion none of us had seen before, and no wonder that the Nenagh (certainly not at that time overburdened with much more than the merest husk and shell in religion) had some of its best type powerfully appealed to, and yielded quite a crop of decisions for God, the following being some of them: Miss Oakley, (who was then a teacher belonging to the Birr Oakleys and a sister of Mrs. Geo. Loney and cousin to Geo. Coughlan and Mrs. Williams of the hotel) E. Bradshaw, Allen Harkness and sister, Jack Carroll [footnote 6] and sister May; who were then living with their Uncle Pat, an exclusive Plym [Plymouth Brethren]; Dick Norman and a young man named Fred Hughes. This last named went with William Irvine for a little while shortly afterwards and played, sang, etc., also a young man named Wallace, and I think his sister, both from Templederry side, but then in situations in Nenagh. Probably there were others of whom I cannot now remember, and I have on purpose left out Mr. Robinson, who perhaps in more ways than one should almost come first; but I rather think that it was in William's second visit to Nenagh, some weeks after the first, that Mr. Robinson took his stand and seemed from the start to hold his first simplicity and freshness, right to the close of his life. Old Mr. Douglas (Presbyterian clergyman), his Colporteur Mr. Barber, and our evangelist Mr. Gilbert, were also very favorably impressed, in fact one may say "set on fire" to all appearance, but as we know, it is one thing to make a brave and flashy start, but another to continue and finish well. I believe, but am not quite sure, that from Nenagh's first visit William [Irvine] went to Rathmolyon [footnote 7], through the Carroll's introduction, where as you know he had another very successful mission, getting hold of nearly all the best type of character in the place, including the Gills [footnote 8], Carrolls [footnote 9], Hastings [footnote 10], Winters and others, and from there back to Nenagh a second time, after which he booked for here. [Cloughjordan] So interesting. Thanks for that. I have read much about just the history of those times and how it was a perfect medium for movements like this and others to take hold. The friends and workers as a whole are unaware of the historical context. Science was shaking people’s faith. So much change. Morality plummeting and oh dear for, women speaking up and demanding to be heard. People thought the world was falling apart. They looked for something solid in a changing scary world and like today looked back. Let’s go back to the beginning . They sought truth. They were zealous. Often young. Impressionable. Sure, the world is ending soon things are so bad so we will sell all. Etc
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Post by Umfolozi on May 21, 2023 10:55:33 GMT -5
Wally I did read again about the Gospel preached before Jesus ascension and after, I have 2 agree with you it looks like it was the same message just worded differently, repent and turn 2 God, the payment in full was just made after Jesus crucifixion.
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 22, 2023 20:22:28 GMT -5
You said: Peter had a wife.
He did have a wife. Matthew 8:14 NKJV - Now when Jesus had come into Peter’s house, He saw his wife’s mother lying sick with a fever.
We do not know for sure if she was alive or not. I guess I always assumed she was dead, Especially as common as death was back in those days. I could be wrong, but I almost feel like there would have been more mention of her. Just my feeling, I’ve been wrong before.
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Post by neighbour on May 22, 2023 20:54:09 GMT -5
You said: Peter had a wife. He did have a wife. Matthew 8:14 NKJV - Now when Jesus had come into Peter’s house, He saw his wife’s mother lying sick with a fever. We do not know for sure if she was alive or not. I guess I always assumed she was dead, Especially as common as death was back in those days. I could be wrong, but I almost feel like there would have been more mention of her. Just my feeling, I’ve been wrong before. Paul insinuated that all of the apostles (including Jesus' brothers and Peter) other than he and Barnabas brought a believing wife along with them in their travels, or at the very least they all had the right to. 1 Cor 9:5
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