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Post by Admin on May 14, 2023 18:07:52 GMT -5
For Jeremy and Leonie: - Preach the NT gospel of grace (see mod5 's post professing.proboards.com/post/1048854/thread )
- Scrap exclusivism (this goes hand-in-glove with the first point - gospel of salvation by grace alone through faith in Christ)
- Do away with mandatory celibacy in the ministry
- Allow married workers (the friends are well able to support married workers, think of benefits including lived experience of family responsibilities and joys)
- Restructure the lines of authority (only one head of the church, Jesus Christ - roles for friends and overseers, no longer under authority of any man)
- Accountability and transparency in money matters
I honestly wonder if the 2x2 will survive if they "scrap exclusivism". Not in its present form. As has been pointed out here, a large part of the strategy is power and control by fear (fear of being cut loose from "the only way to get to heaven"). It's quite hard to believe that so many 'friends' have swallowed this for so long. But as Covid has shown us, the ability of the human mind to grasp all kinds of weird conspiracy ideas seems unlimited. In essence, scrapping exclusivism means going right back to the beginnings of the 2x2 way, 1897 when William Irvine broke away from the sound Christian Faith Mission operating out of Scotland and Ireland. Going back to the fork in the road, where the Faith Mission continued on with its evangelical mission of teaching revival for local church-goers, and the 2x2 group which decided (or at least, Wm Irvine decided) could gain a following by preaching "the only way". faithmission.org/history/
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Post by shipwreckedsailor on May 14, 2023 19:28:49 GMT -5
I honestly wonder if the 2x2 will survive if they "scrap exclusivism". Not in its present form. As has been pointed out here, a large part of the strategy is power and control by fear (fear of being cut loose from "the only way to get to heaven"). It's quite hard to believe that so many 'friends' have swallowed this for so long. But as Covid has shown us, the ability of the human mind to grasp all kinds of weird conspiracy ideas seems unlimited. In essence, scrapping exclusivism means going right back to the beginnings of the 2x2 way, 1897 when William Irvine broke away from the sound Christian Faith Mission operating out of Scotland and Ireland. Going back to the fork in the road, where the Faith Mission continued on with its evangelical mission of teaching revival for local church-goers, and the 2x2 group which decided (or at least, Wm Irvine decided) could gain a following by preaching "the only way". faithmission.org/history/And hence my feelings that if this were scrapped the cards would begin to topple. When I left the 2x2 faith over 10 years ago (thank you Lord Jesus) my greatest dark fear was that I would be going to hell because I was leaving "the one and only true faith". That's Jesus plus. They don't teach Jesus only.
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Post by Admin on May 14, 2023 20:04:37 GMT -5
When I left the 2x2 faith over 10 years ago (thank you Lord Jesus) my greatest dark fear was that I would be going to hell because I was leaving "the one and only true faith". That's Jesus plus. They don't teach Jesus only.Exactly. Galatians chapter 3: You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? Have you experienced so much in vain — if it really was in vain? So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” .... Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Footnote Galatians 3:3 In contexts like this, the Greek word for flesh ( sarx) refers to the sinful state of human beings, often presented as a power in opposition to the Spirit.
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Post by shipwreckedsailor on May 14, 2023 20:44:34 GMT -5
When I left the 2x2 faith over 10 years ago (thank you Lord Jesus) my greatest dark fear was that I would be going to hell because I was leaving "the one and only true faith". That's Jesus plus. They don't teach Jesus only.Exactly. Galatians chapter 3: You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? Have you experienced so much in vain — if it really was in vain? So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” .... Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Footnote Galatians 3:3 In contexts like this, the Greek word for flesh ( sarx) refers to the sinful state of human beings, often presented as a power in opposition to the Spirit. Amen!
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 14, 2023 23:11:15 GMT -5
I personally don't think a plethora of new rules are necessary, nor will the ones listed stop the problem.. Sounds like an over-complicated regiment of rules that fix nothing.
1. Somebody has got to be at the top, no organization is efficient with no one taking charge or calling the shots. Everybody can't be in charge, that would be a chaotic mess.
2. Financial transparency will never be itemized, and basically, we already know how money is spent. Return to living by Faith? When did that ever stop?
3. The doctrine is conformance.. Members will be sidelined for inappropriate behavior. 4. Male dominance will continue because its biblical.
5. Everyone can't schedule & plan meetings, coordinating dates can't be a free for all, there's always circumstances and contingencies that require changes. 6. There are always private matters that make total transparency impossible. 7. Who determines what makes a new Worker suitable? 8. I do agree that some real life experience should be a prerequisite to entering the Work, that has already been a requirement for many of them.
These rules don't address or stop sexual abuse. Other suggestions such as Workers being allowed to marry are ridiculous, not allowing them to be in homes with children is also impractical.
1. Most churches/organisations have a BOARD at the top, not one master. A board in which a small group of individuals keep each other accountable. 2. You have NO IDEA how much money there is, and NO IDEA how it is being spent. Have you forgotten the Dean Bruer affair already? Expenses need to be categorised, not itemised. You show a deficiency of understanding of the most basic of business accounting principles. Some basic categories: hall hire, travel, medical, convention catering, etc. etc. Any business that rakes in millions needs to provide audited financial statements to its adherents. 7. The Bible might even give guidelines on what makes a man suitable for church office? Hmmm? ? The qualifications of the bishop/elder/pastor are found in 1 Timothy 3:1–7: “Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.”So why is it ridiculous to allow workers/overseers to marry? More importantly, is it biblical to NOT allow them to marry? 1 Timothy 4: The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry...Hmm, hypocritcal liars who forbid workers to marry, all the while allowing workers to commit sexual immorality in secret all over the place. Yes, they abandoned the truth faith LONG AGO. Perhaps it is time to acknowledge there is NOTHING biblical about the Two-by-Twos. Perhaps it is time to admit that those "worldly" churches that follow Biblical guidelines are actually much more biblical.
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Post by Dan on May 15, 2023 0:53:50 GMT -5
I personally don't think a plethora of new rules are necessary, nor will the ones listed stop the problem.. Sounds like an over-complicated regiment of rules that fix nothing.
1. Somebody has got to be at the top, no organization is efficient with no one taking charge or calling the shots. Everybody can't be in charge, that would be a chaotic mess.
2. Financial transparency will never be itemized, and basically, we already know how money is spent. Return to living by Faith? When did that ever stop?
3. The doctrine is conformance.. Members will be sidelined for inappropriate behavior. 4. Male dominance will continue because its biblical.
5. Everyone can't schedule & plan meetings, coordinating dates can't be a free for all, there's always circumstances and contingencies that require changes. 6. There are always private matters that make total transparency impossible. 7. Who determines what makes a new Worker suitable? 8. I do agree that some real life experience should be a prerequisite to entering the Work, that has already been a requirement for many of them.
These rules don't address or stop sexual abuse. Other suggestions such as Workers being allowed to marry are ridiculous, not allowing them to be in homes with children is also impractical.
1. Most churches/organisations have a BOARD at the top, not one master. A board in which a small group of individuals keep each other accountable. 2. You have NO IDEA how much money there is, and NO IDEA how it is being spent. Have you forgotten the Dean Bruer affair already? Expenses need to be categorised, not itemised. You show a deficiency of understanding of the most basic of business accounting principles. Some basic categories: hall hire, travel, medical, convention catering, etc. etc. Any business that rakes in millions needs to provide audited financial statements to its adherents. 7. The Bible might even give guidelines on what makes a man suitable for church office? Hmmm? ? The qualifications of the bishop/elder/pastor are found in 1 Timothy 3:1–7: “Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.”So why is it ridiculous to allow workers/overseers to marry? More importantly, is it biblical to NOT allow them to marry? 1 Timothy 4: The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry...Hmm, hypocritcal liars who forbid workers to marry, all the while allowing workers to commit sexual immorality in secret all over the place. Yes, they abandoned the truth faith LONG AGO. Perhaps it is time to acknowledge there is NOTHING biblical about the Two-by-Twos. Perhaps it is time to admit that those "worldly" churches that follow Biblical guidelines are actually much more biblical.
The Truth does have many people handling the money, not one person. I agree that abuses should be monitored and reported. A lone Worker renting motel rooms would have been flagged as an uncategorized expense. The money is spent for travel, medical, etc,. Its not audited like a business because its not a business and its adherents haven't requested financial statements.. Maybe they should?
I believe the 'Bishop' in Tim 3 is today's 'Elder'. Its just describing the qualifications for the Elders of local churches.
What kind of marriage would work for itinerant preachers? They could never be together or raise a family. Workers forsake all for the gospel sake. And I don't think 1 Tim 4 is referencing the ministry, but what they teach the congregation.
The actions taken of late are clearly demonstrating that they aren't allowing Workers to be sexually immoral or active. Some were, and it was covered up, but never officially condoned.
If one believes that the way Jesus sent his disciples out was correct (Mat 10), then they are 100% biblical. Their ultimate example was Christ himself, who went from town to town preaching, was unmarried, and as he told a young man who wanted to follow him, "Sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me" (Luke 18:22).
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Post by BobWilliston on May 15, 2023 1:32:27 GMT -5
1. Most churches/organisations have a BOARD at the top, not one master. A board in which a small group of individuals keep each other accountable. 2. You have NO IDEA how much money there is, and NO IDEA how it is being spent. Have you forgotten the Dean Bruer affair already? Expenses need to be categorised, not itemised. You show a deficiency of understanding of the most basic of business accounting principles. Some basic categories: hall hire, travel, medical, convention catering, etc. etc. Any business that rakes in millions needs to provide audited financial statements to its adherents. 7. The Bible might even give guidelines on what makes a man suitable for church office? Hmmm? ? The qualifications of the bishop/elder/pastor are found in 1 Timothy 3:1–7: “Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.”So why is it ridiculous to allow workers/overseers to marry? More importantly, is it biblical to NOT allow them to marry? 1 Timothy 4: The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry...Hmm, hypocritcal liars who forbid workers to marry, all the while allowing workers to commit sexual immorality in secret all over the place. Yes, they abandoned the truth faith LONG AGO. Perhaps it is time to acknowledge there is NOTHING biblical about the Two-by-Twos. Perhaps it is time to admit that those "worldly" churches that follow Biblical guidelines are actually much more biblical. The Truth does have many people handling the money, not one person. I agree that abuses should be monitored and reported. A lone Worker renting motel rooms would have been flagged as an uncategorized expense. The money is spent for travel, medical, etc,. Its not audited like a business because its not a business and its adherents haven't requested financial statements.. Maybe they should?
I believe the 'Bishop' in Tim 3 is today's 'Elder'. Its just describing the qualifications for the Elders of local churches.
What kind of marriage would work for itinerant preachers? They could never be together or raise a family. Workers forsake all for the gospel sake. And I don't think 1 Tim 4 is referencing the ministry, but what they teach the congregation.
The actions taken of late are clearly demonstrating that they aren't allowing Workers to be sexually immoral or active. Some were, and it was covered up, but never officially condoned.
If one believes that the way Jesus sent his disciples out was correct (Mat 10), then they are 100% biblical. Their ultimate example was Christ himself, who went from town to town preaching, was unmarried, and as he told a young man who wanted to follow him, "Sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me" (Luke 18:22).
Peter had a wife. I heard a sister worker at convention speak about her. I know of a husband and wife pair of workers who raised a family. Celibacy has not always been mandatory for workers.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 15, 2023 1:39:09 GMT -5
1. Most churches/organisations have a BOARD at the top, not one master. A board in which a small group of individuals keep each other accountable. 2. You have NO IDEA how much money there is, and NO IDEA how it is being spent. Have you forgotten the Dean Bruer affair already? Expenses need to be categorised, not itemised. You show a deficiency of understanding of the most basic of business accounting principles. Some basic categories: hall hire, travel, medical, convention catering, etc. etc. Any business that rakes in millions needs to provide audited financial statements to its adherents. 7. The Bible might even give guidelines on what makes a man suitable for church office? Hmmm? ? The qualifications of the bishop/elder/pastor are found in 1 Timothy 3:1–7: “Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.”So why is it ridiculous to allow workers/overseers to marry? More importantly, is it biblical to NOT allow them to marry? 1 Timothy 4: The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry...Hmm, hypocritcal liars who forbid workers to marry, all the while allowing workers to commit sexual immorality in secret all over the place. Yes, they abandoned the truth faith LONG AGO. Perhaps it is time to acknowledge there is NOTHING biblical about the Two-by-Twos. Perhaps it is time to admit that those "worldly" churches that follow Biblical guidelines are actually much more biblical.
The Truth does have many people handling the money, not one person. I agree that abuses should be monitored and reported. A lone Worker renting motel rooms would have been flagged as an uncategorized expense. The money is spent for travel, medical, etc,. Its not audited like a business because its not a business and its adherents haven't requested financial statements.. Maybe they should?
I believe the 'Bishop' in Tim 3 is today's 'Elder'. Its just describing the qualifications for the Elders of local churches.
What kind of marriage would work for itinerant preachers? They could never be together or raise a family. Workers forsake all for the gospel sake. And I don't think 1 Tim 4 is referencing the ministry, but what they teach the congregation.
The actions taken of late are clearly demonstrating that they aren't allowing Workers to be sexually immoral or active. Some were, and it was covered up, but never officially condoned.
If one believes that the way Jesus sent his disciples out was correct (Mat 10), then they are 100% biblical. Their ultimate example was Christ himself, who went from town to town preaching, was unmarried, and as he told a young man who wanted to follow him, "Sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me" (Luke 18:22).
Jesus' hometown was Capernaum. Yes, he went on preaching tours, but actually lived in Capernaum. Matt 4:13 Leaving Nazareth, he went and lived in CapernaumShow me one verse from Matthew or Luke 10 that the workers actually follow. Seriously. The preachers sent out in pairs with no luggage or purse (Matt 10, Luke 10) went on a short term mission only. To the Jews only. In pairs so they met the Jewish mandate for witnesses. Healing the sick and raising the dead. Before the death and resurrection of Christ. Their ministry looks NOTHING like the workers' ministry. Overall, they gave up their previous livelihoods to go fulltime into ministry work, but there is no suggestion they sold their homes. Quite the contrary. The apostle John still had his at the time of Jesus' crucifixion. He took Jesus' mother into his own home. Do all followers of Jesus have to follow Luke 18:22? Or was this a specific challenge to a specific person? PS - Jesus didn't come to be our example. He didn't come to set up a new ministry. He came to give his life as a ransom for many. Therein lies the greatest misunderstanding of the workers and friends, and why they completely miss the mark when it comes to the gospel.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2023 9:49:53 GMT -5
1. Most churches/organisations have a BOARD at the top, not one master. A board in which a small group of individuals keep each other accountable. 2. You have NO IDEA how much money there is, and NO IDEA how it is being spent. Have you forgotten the Dean Bruer affair already? Expenses need to be categorised, not itemised. You show a deficiency of understanding of the most basic of business accounting principles. Some basic categories: hall hire, travel, medical, convention catering, etc. etc. Any business that rakes in millions needs to provide audited financial statements to its adherents. 7. The Bible might even give guidelines on what makes a man suitable for church office? Hmmm? ? The qualifications of the bishop/elder/pastor are found in 1 Timothy 3:1–7: “Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.”So why is it ridiculous to allow workers/overseers to marry? More importantly, is it biblical to NOT allow them to marry? 1 Timothy 4: The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry...Hmm, hypocritcal liars who forbid workers to marry, all the while allowing workers to commit sexual immorality in secret all over the place. Yes, they abandoned the truth faith LONG AGO. Perhaps it is time to acknowledge there is NOTHING biblical about the Two-by-Twos. Perhaps it is time to admit that those "worldly" churches that follow Biblical guidelines are actually much more biblical.
The Truth does have many people handling the money, not one person. I agree that abuses should be monitored and reported. A lone Worker renting motel rooms would have been flagged as an uncategorized expense. The money is spent for travel, medical, etc,. Its not audited like a business because its not a business and its adherents haven't requested financial statements.. Maybe they should?
I believe the 'Bishop' in Tim 3 is today's 'Elder'. Its just describing the qualifications for the Elders of local churches.
What kind of marriage would work for itinerant preachers? They could never be together or raise a family. Workers forsake all for the gospel sake. And I don't think 1 Tim 4 is referencing the ministry, but what they teach the congregation.
The actions taken of late are clearly demonstrating that they aren't allowing Workers to be sexually immoral or active. Some were, and it was covered up, but never officially condoned.
If one believes that the way Jesus sent his disciples out was correct (Mat 10), then they are 100% biblical. Their ultimate example was Christ himself, who went from town to town preaching, was unmarried, and as he told a young man who wanted to follow him, "Sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me" (Luke 18:22).
Well said brother...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2023 10:00:07 GMT -5
I personally don't think a plethora of new rules are necessary, nor will the ones listed stop the problem.. Sounds like an over-complicated regiment of rules that fix nothing.
1. Somebody has got to be at the top, no organization is efficient with no one taking charge or calling the shots. Everybody can't be in charge, that would be a chaotic mess.
2. Financial transparency will never be itemized, and basically, we already know how money is spent. Return to living by Faith? When did that ever stop?
3. The doctrine is conformance.. Members will be sidelined for inappropriate behavior. 4. Male dominance will continue because its biblical.
5. Everyone can't schedule & plan meetings, coordinating dates can't be a free for all, there's always circumstances and contingencies that require changes. 6. There are always private matters that make total transparency impossible. 7. Who determines what makes a new Worker suitable? 8. I do agree that some real life experience should be a prerequisite to entering the Work, that has already been a requirement for many of them.
These rules don't address or stop sexual abuse. Other suggestions such as Workers being allowed to marry are ridiculous, not allowing them to be in homes with children is also impractical.
1. Most churches/organisations have a BOARD at the top, not one master. A board in which a small group of individuals keep each other accountable. 2. You have NO IDEA how much money there is, and NO IDEA how it is being spent. Have you forgotten the Dean Bruer affair already? Expenses need to be categorised, not itemised. You show a deficiency of understanding of the most basic of business accounting principles. Some basic categories: hall hire, travel, medical, convention catering, etc. etc. Any business that rakes in millions needs to provide audited financial statements to its adherents. 7. The Bible might even give guidelines on what makes a man suitable for church office? Hmmm? ? The qualifications of the bishop/elder/pastor are found in 1 Timothy 3:1–7: “Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.”So why is it ridiculous to allow workers/overseers to marry? More importantly, is it biblical to NOT allow them to marry? 1 Timothy 4: The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry...Hmm, hypocritcal liars who forbid workers to marry, all the while allowing workers to commit sexual immorality in secret all over the place. Yes, they abandoned the truth faith LONG AGO. Perhaps it is time to acknowledge there is NOTHING biblical about the Two-by-Twos. Perhaps it is time to admit that those "worldly" churches that follow Biblical guidelines are actually much more biblical. If a church were to be run like a business Christ would have said so, he didn't. Churches that run like business's are more like the millionaire preachers that use the prosperity gospel. 1 Tim. 3 is not about preachers it's about the bishops/elders and deacons. Time and again, ad nauseum. Christ is the example of a Preacher of the word, single, homeless and owning only what he could carry with him. Several others did this too. They did it, so can anyone else. Your ranting bias is showing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2023 10:19:18 GMT -5
The Truth does have many people handling the money, not one person. I agree that abuses should be monitored and reported. A lone Worker renting motel rooms would have been flagged as an uncategorized expense. The money is spent for travel, medical, etc,. Its not audited like a business because its not a business and its adherents haven't requested financial statements.. Maybe they should?
I believe the 'Bishop' in Tim 3 is today's 'Elder'. Its just describing the qualifications for the Elders of local churches.
What kind of marriage would work for itinerant preachers? They could never be together or raise a family. Workers forsake all for the gospel sake. And I don't think 1 Tim 4 is referencing the ministry, but what they teach the congregation.
The actions taken of late are clearly demonstrating that they aren't allowing Workers to be sexually immoral or active. Some were, and it was covered up, but never officially condoned.
If one believes that the way Jesus sent his disciples out was correct (Mat 10), then they are 100% biblical. Their ultimate example was Christ himself, who went from town to town preaching, was unmarried, and as he told a young man who wanted to follow him, "Sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me" (Luke 18:22).
Jesus' hometown was Capernaum. Yes, he went on preaching tours, but actually lived in Capernaum. Matt 4:13 Leaving Nazareth, he went and lived in CapernaumShow me one verse from Matthew or Luke 10 that the workers actually follow. Seriously. The preachers sent out in pairs with no luggage or purse (Matt 10, Luke 10) went on a short term mission only. To the Jews only. In pairs so they met the Jewish mandate for witnesses. Healing the sick and raising the dead. Before the death and resurrection of Christ. Their ministry looks NOTHING like the workers' ministry. Overall, they gave up their previous livelihoods to go fulltime into ministry work, but there is no suggestion they sold their homes. Quite the contrary. The apostle John still had his at the time of Jesus' crucifixion. He took Jesus' mother into his own home. Do all followers of Jesus have to follow Luke 18:22? Or was this a specific challenge to a specific person? PS - Jesus didn't come to be our example. He didn't come to set up a new ministry. He came to give his life as a ransom for many. Therein lies the greatest misunderstanding of the workers and friends, and why they completely miss the mark when it comes to the gospel. There is NO indication that anything was done short-term concerning the preaching of the gospel. Your revisionist interpretations leave something to be desired. One can "live" anywhere without having a permanent residence. The KJV uses dwelt BTW, dwelt is past tense meaning it ended or for a time. Joh_13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. 1Pe_2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: The NT is very clear who our example is. In NT times they would ask you if not Christ then who is your example and who are you following. One wonders who is really missing the mark. Christ said he would build his church upon this rock(him) that wasn't just one part of the church but all of it. A church has many members/parts which the church(body)suffers if any part is missing.
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Post by snow on May 15, 2023 13:30:41 GMT -5
The Truth does have many people handling the money, not one person. I agree that abuses should be monitored and reported. A lone Worker renting motel rooms would have been flagged as an uncategorized expense. The money is spent for travel, medical, etc,. Its not audited like a business because its not a business and its adherents haven't requested financial statements.. Maybe they should?
I believe the 'Bishop' in Tim 3 is today's 'Elder'. Its just describing the qualifications for the Elders of local churches.
What kind of marriage would work for itinerant preachers? They could never be together or raise a family. Workers forsake all for the gospel sake. And I don't think 1 Tim 4 is referencing the ministry, but what they teach the congregation.
The actions taken of late are clearly demonstrating that they aren't allowing Workers to be sexually immoral or active. Some were, and it was covered up, but never officially condoned.
If one believes that the way Jesus sent his disciples out was correct (Mat 10), then they are 100% biblical. Their ultimate example was Christ himself, who went from town to town preaching, was unmarried, and as he told a young man who wanted to follow him, "Sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me" (Luke 18:22).
Peter had a wife. I heard a sister worker at convention speak about her. I know of a husband and wife pair of workers who raised a family. Celibacy has not always been mandatory for workers. This is true. And, when they needed to be married to enter a country they did that. The Macletus's (sp?) are an example of that when they went to Greece many years ago.
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Post by getreal on May 15, 2023 13:55:29 GMT -5
There have been a number of married couples in the work in the past. I don’t think, as has been explained to me, that it was abandoned because it couldn’t be reconciled with the Bible so much as it was just deemed to be impractical. The chosen MO moved away from renting a bach which made sense when they were still trying new areas where there were no friends to stay with or few friends where it would be a burden on them., to living full time with the friends. In hindsight, this was a mistake. But it was possible as the number of friends grew. The married version wasn’t as flexible perhaps and if a child came along even more so. That being said, it doesn’t mean a married couple version of workers couldn’t work again. Without children they are still very movable from field to field. They would have something unique to give in that they obviously would have more insight into real life.
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Post by scooter123 on May 15, 2023 14:05:00 GMT -5
An interesting read is the Journal of John Long, one of William Irvine’s first converts. He was eventually excommunicated by Irvine for refusing to renounce all other preachers as hell-bound. He continued to preach the gospel (the real gospel) of Jesus Christ as an itinerant minister even though he married and had children. I don’t know why workers say that isn’t practical, so can’t be done. As we can see with all the you-know-what hitting the fan now, it’s their self imposed “celibate” piousness that is proving to be highly impractical.
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Post by getreal on May 15, 2023 14:30:13 GMT -5
I would add that many, hundreds of the current cream of the crop friends descend from those early families who professed in meeting held by married couples both in canada in the usa. I remember hearing so much about 2 of those couples as they are revered to this day. I guess God approved!
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Post by mrdobalina on May 15, 2023 14:39:24 GMT -5
I would add that many, hundreds of the current cream of the crop friends descend from those early families who professed in meeting held by married couples both in canada in the usa. I remember hearing so much about 2 of those couples as they are revered to this day. I guess God approved! Funny part is that there's no such thing as gods approval, only man's belief that he has appeased God sufficiently.
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Post by getreal on May 15, 2023 15:09:44 GMT -5
Yes, as I hear you, all this discussion is predicated on there being a god and this belief system being of god and worth fighting for. Even though my beliefs have evolved and are unattached to the boxes humans like to put god and people within, which is another topic, I feel for this church and I still see how it can meet needs and makes certain people happy. I would be happy if the needed changes were made for their sake and because I have a sibling still in the work. It could be so much better, clearly, brought into the light, problems faced and repairs made. Its a big ship in its own way that is hard to turn, but it has to, or it should well, die.
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Post by shipwreckedsailor on May 15, 2023 15:34:49 GMT -5
Yes, as I hear you, all this discussion is predicated on there being a god and this belief system being of god and worth fighting for. Even though my beliefs have evolved and are unattached to the boxes humans like to put god and people within, which is another topic, I feel for this church and I still see how it can meet needs and makes certain people happy. I would be happy if the needed changes were made for their sake and because I have a sibling still in the work. It could be so much better, clearly, brought into the light, problems faced and repairs made. Its a big ship in its own way that is hard to turn, but it has to, or it should well, die. This is heavy on my heart as well ~ I know how it makes your heart ache because I too have a sibling in the work ~ has been for years. So my concern is so heart felt. There was a brother worker who left many years ago who relayed his story to me (a few years after he left). He had very little in his beaten up suitcase, the clothes on his back and a few dollars in his pocket with no where to go and facing the unknown as he'd been shunned by almost everyone he'd known and worked amongst. As you said...it's a big ship, if it doesn't turn, if it dies, I wonder the effects it will have on those who have given years of their lives.
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Post by Grant on May 15, 2023 15:41:04 GMT -5
There have been a number of married couples in the work in the past. I don’t think, as has been explained to me, that it was abandoned because it couldn’t be reconciled with the Bible so much as it was just deemed to be impractical. The chosen MO moved away from renting a bach which made sense when they were still trying new areas where there were no friends to stay with or few friends where it would be a burden on them., to living full time with the friends. In hindsight, this was a mistake. But it was possible as the number of friends grew. The married version wasn’t as flexible perhaps and if a child came along even more so. That being said, it doesn’t mean a married couple version of workers couldn’t work again. Without children they are still very movable from field to field. They would have something unique to give in that they obviously would have more insight into real life. Missionaries get married and have children. They even get converts which is more than the workers do. After all isn't that what it's about or is it just sitting with their own flock and talking all day which is what the workers do. Hardly Biblical.
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Post by getreal on May 15, 2023 15:57:07 GMT -5
Agree. Lots is possible, what is in the way are minds set in concrete. Minds that believe even a slight change is broadening the narrow way. Diverting from the path of those who have gone before them is like trampling on their testimony. It is an unchanging way right? Of course it has in many, many ways changed, but it has for most of its life been the church in the home and the ministry without a home and that is its reason for being. Altering it is an existential threat. Asking that to change in any way is a tectonic shift. So while I like to explore what could and should be, I have little confidence in it happening but I hope I am wrong. Could it stay as a church in the home and ministry without a home and be healthy. I don’t know. I Donny think a few adjustments as I have read in some posting, will work sufficiently.
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Post by Pragmatic on May 15, 2023 16:12:06 GMT -5
The Beatties here in NZ were married. Of course it can be done, other churches do it, simple. They just don't have to be as itinerant.
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Post by getreal on May 15, 2023 16:16:44 GMT -5
I know I am posting a lot. Sorry. I have been quietly thinking forever. I agree with the Tomlinson’s about the need for friend oversight. I think this would be a great first step to have a little elected board of friends in each field or area given a pair of workers. It came to me recently that the way elders are chosen is biased towards those who are married obviously, but also have money, a bigger home with a big enough living room and enough money to host the friends and so on. Not always, but mostly. This leaves out many wise and worthy people like the unmarried, the poorer folks, and just not everyone can have a meeting in their home. But any worthy person could be elected to a board. It would be more inclusive and representative and could be refreshed with new members more often. This board having oversight prevents authoritarianism at the root of som any problems. Could it work? Could it happen?
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Post by neighbour on May 15, 2023 16:21:15 GMT -5
Could it work? Could it happen? I'm not sure, but in Acts they appointed a council of seven men to make sure the widows were taken care of. The apostles wanted to concentrate on preaching the gospel. And even when choosing someone to replace Judas they didn't just let Peter choose, they all agreed on the top two candidates and "cast lots" to choose between them.
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Post by getreal on May 15, 2023 17:03:54 GMT -5
Exactly. Its amazing when your mind is more open you can find just as much support for trying something else. Of course ‘they’ might say you are just cherry picking. But then you could say so are you? 😀 I think humility would help here and just accepting that long standing problems speak for themselves undeniably meaning oops we have got something not quite right here. You can accept that without it meaning your whole world is shattered.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 15, 2023 18:17:20 GMT -5
Jesus' hometown was Capernaum. Yes, he went on preaching tours, but actually lived in Capernaum. Matt 4:13 Leaving Nazareth, he went and lived in CapernaumShow me one verse from Matthew or Luke 10 that the workers actually follow. Seriously. The preachers sent out in pairs with no luggage or purse (Matt 10, Luke 10) went on a short term mission only. To the Jews only. In pairs so they met the Jewish mandate for witnesses. Healing the sick and raising the dead. Before the death and resurrection of Christ. Their ministry looks NOTHING like the workers' ministry. Overall, they gave up their previous livelihoods to go fulltime into ministry work, but there is no suggestion they sold their homes. Quite the contrary. The apostle John still had his at the time of Jesus' crucifixion. He took Jesus' mother into his own home. Do all followers of Jesus have to follow Luke 18:22? Or was this a specific challenge to a specific person? PS - Jesus didn't come to be our example. He didn't come to set up a new ministry. He came to give his life as a ransom for many. Therein lies the greatest misunderstanding of the workers and friends, and why they completely miss the mark when it comes to the gospel. There is NO indication that anything was done short-term concerning the preaching of the gospel. Your revisionist interpretations leave something to be desired. One can "live" anywhere without having a permanent residence. The KJV uses dwelt BTW, dwelt is past tense meaning it ended or for a time. Joh_13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. 1Pe_2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: The NT is very clear who our example is. In NT times they would ask you if not Christ then who is your example and who are you following. One wonders who is really missing the mark. Christ said he would build his church upon this rock(him) that wasn't just one part of the church but all of it. A church has many members/parts which the church(body)suffers if any part is missing. Yes, Wally, it was short term. They were to go: - Only to the House of Israel (jews) - "sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go." This was a short term mission for witnesses to go proclaiming that the kingdom was near, to every town WHERE HE WAS ABOUT TO GO. In his lifetime. Before this death and resurrection. MUCH changed after the death and resurrection of Christ. Preachers were to go into all the world. They were to preach to the Gentiles. They were mostly married - Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas? They were to earn their living wage from the ministry. If the qualifications are only for elders, as you insist, and not church leaders, WHERE IS THE QUALIFICATION FOR CHURCH LEADERS LISTED? 1 Tim 5 T he elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. For Scripture says, “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,” and “The worker deserves his wages".
Who directs the affairs of the church? Who does the preaching and teaching? Two-by-Two elders? Really? ? And Are you paying them wages for being elders? We all know the rank system and how it works - Overseers, head workers, male workers, female workers, elders, saints. ELDERS ARE SECOND FROM THE BOTTOM in the Two-by-Two system. They hold almost no power. They don't preach and teach. They don't earn a wage from the work of preaching and teaching. The Two-by-Two system of unmarried, itinerant preachers who cannot earn a wage goes against everything else in scripture. Workers simply IGNORE all the other passages. Jesus is an example of many things, particularly self-sacrificing service. But "trying to be like Jesus" doesn't save anyone. Any discussion with someone like yourself shows an inherent belief in your own works, and full faith in the workers' ministry for salvation, not Christ alone. The Two-by-Twos are not worth saving as a group, because they preach a gospel of heresy. The walls are finally tumbling down and the veneer is being stripped away. It is not pretty, but at least it will be a way out for many currently in bondage to this system.
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Post by Pragmatic on May 15, 2023 18:59:05 GMT -5
There is NO indication that anything was done short-term concerning the preaching of the gospel. Your revisionist interpretations leave something to be desired. One can "live" anywhere without having a permanent residence. The KJV uses dwelt BTW, dwelt is past tense meaning it ended or for a time. Joh_13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. 1Pe_2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: The NT is very clear who our example is. In NT times they would ask you if not Christ then who is your example and who are you following. One wonders who is really missing the mark. Christ said he would build his church upon this rock(him) that wasn't just one part of the church but all of it. A church has many members/parts which the church(body)suffers if any part is missing. Yes, Wally, it was short term. They were to go: - Only to the House of Israel (jews) - "sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go." This was a short term mission for witnesses to go proclaiming that the kingdom was near, to every town WHERE HE WAS ABOUT TO GO. In his lifetime. Before this death and resurrection. MUCH changed after the death and resurrection of Christ. Preachers were to go into all the world. They were to preach to the Gentiles. They were mostly married - Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas? They were to earn their living wage from the ministry. If the qualifications are only for elders, as you insist, and not church leaders, WHERE IS THE QUALIFICATION FOR CHURCH LEADERS LISTED? 1 Tim 5 T he elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. For Scripture says, “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,” and “The worker deserves his wages".
Who directs the affairs of the church? Who does the preaching and teaching? Two-by-Two elders? Really? ? And Are you paying them wages for being elders? We all know the rank system and how it works - Overseers, head workers, male workers, female workers, elders, saints. ELDERS ARE SECOND FROM THE BOTTOM in the Two-by-Two system. They hold almost no power. They don't preach and teach. They don't earn a wage from the work of preaching and teaching. The Two-by-Two system of unmarried, itinerant preachers who cannot earn a wage goes against everything else in scripture. Workers simply IGNORE all the other passages. Jesus is an example of many things, particularly self-sacrificing service. But "trying to be like Jesus" doesn't save anyone. Any discussion with someone like yourself shows an inherent belief in your own works, and full faith in the workers' ministry for salvation, not Christ alone. The Two-by-Twos are not worth saving as a group, because they preach a gospel of heresy. The walls are finally tumbling down and the veneer is being stripped away. It is not pretty, but at least it will be a way out for many currently in bondage to this system. Well worth a watch - and apologies if it has been posted before.
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Post by matisse on May 15, 2023 19:15:05 GMT -5
I personally don't think a plethora of new rules are necessary, nor will the ones listed stop the problem.. Sounds like an over-complicated regiment of rules that fix nothing.
1. Somebody has got to be at the top, no organization is efficient with no one taking charge or calling the shots. Everybody can't be in charge, that would be a chaotic mess.
2. Financial transparency will never be itemized, and basically, we already know how money is spent. Return to living by Faith? When did that ever stop?
3. The doctrine is conformance.. Members will be sidelined for inappropriate behavior. 4. Male dominance will continue because its biblical.
5. Everyone can't schedule & plan meetings, coordinating dates can't be a free for all, there's always circumstances and contingencies that require changes. 6. There are always private matters that make total transparency impossible. 7. Who determines what makes a new Worker suitable? 8. I do agree that some real life experience should be a prerequisite to entering the Work, that has already been a requirement for many of them.
These rules don't address or stop sexual abuse. Other suggestions such as Workers being allowed to marry are ridiculous, not allowing them to be in homes with children is also impractical.
Male dominance seems about as effective as "following the leadings of the Holy Spirit". I.e. not so much. Look where these have landed the 2x2s.
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Post by getreal on May 15, 2023 19:18:16 GMT -5
I sometimes think the New Testament is like the usa constitution, no offense please. You wish it had more detail. I appreciated what someone said earlier that Jesus didn’t really come to set up the structure of a church per se but to die for everyone and teach how to treat your fellow people. I just wonder if the spirit of the way things is done being as Jesus taught and showed is far more important than the exact form being ‘right’ so there is much room left for interpretation of that part. One could study, and parse, and split hairs forever but maybe the answers to the specifics will ever be far from us? But if the fruit is sick something is wrong with the tree and even maybe the root. We know that. With such fundamental and pervasive and serious problems one has to question the root. Married, not married, home or no home, meet in homes or rent a hall, conventions or no, dresses or no, buns or no, on and on and on ad nauseum. Isn’t it old and tired?
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