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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2023 19:24:46 GMT -5
There is NO indication that anything was done short-term concerning the preaching of the gospel. Your revisionist interpretations leave something to be desired. One can "live" anywhere without having a permanent residence. The KJV uses dwelt BTW, dwelt is past tense meaning it ended or for a time. Joh_13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. 1Pe_2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: The NT is very clear who our example is. In NT times they would ask you if not Christ then who is your example and who are you following. One wonders who is really missing the mark. Christ said he would build his church upon this rock(him) that wasn't just one part of the church but all of it. A church has many members/parts which the church(body)suffers if any part is missing. Yes, Wally, it was short term. They were to go: - Only to the House of Israel (jews) - "sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go." This was a short term mission for witnesses to go proclaiming that the kingdom was near, to every town WHERE HE WAS ABOUT TO GO. In his lifetime. Before this death and resurrection. MUCH changed after the death and resurrection of Christ. Preachers were to go into all the world. They were to preach to the Gentiles. They were mostly married - Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas? They were to earn their living wage from the ministry. If the qualifications are only for elders, as you insist, and not church leaders, WHERE IS THE QUALIFICATION FOR CHURCH LEADERS LISTED? 1 Tim 5 T he elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. For Scripture says, “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,” and “The worker deserves his wages".
Who directs the affairs of the church? Who does the preaching and teaching? Two-by-Two elders? Really? ? And Are you paying them wages for being elders? We all know the rank system and how it works - Overseers, head workers, male workers, female workers, elders, saints. ELDERS ARE SECOND FROM THE BOTTOM in the Two-by-Two system. They hold almost no power. They don't preach and teach. They don't earn a wage from the work of preaching and teaching. The Two-by-Two system of unmarried, itinerant preachers who cannot earn a wage goes against everything else in scripture. Workers simply IGNORE all the other passages. Jesus is an example of many things, particularly self-sacrificing service. But "trying to be like Jesus" doesn't save anyone. Any discussion with someone like yourself shows an inherent belief in your own works, and full faith in the workers' ministry for salvation, not Christ alone. The Two-by-Twos are not worth saving as a group, because they preach a gospel of heresy. The walls are finally tumbling down and the veneer is being stripped away. It is not pretty, but at least it will be a way out for many currently in bondage to this system. That doesn't say short term. Have no idea where you get that from. It was just for the Jews to hear it first and given an opportunity first. Then after the resurrection they were to go everywhere. That doesn't mean the mission stopped in Israel either. They were still preached too. No idea of your experience (it seems limited or jaded at best). Bishops do teach and preach. If I have questions I go to the friends or relatives in the truth first, I go to elders next if they can't then the workers. The definition used in that chapter for elders is about leaders of each church(assemblies) it does NOT say preacher or apostle would be charged to work the everyday things of the church. Not sure about the wage things I'll look at that. Never said the act of doing his example saves, but it would be a sign of bearing fruit. He is quite clear, he is our example. Umm nope that would be a delusion on your part, I say consistently here bearing fruit is required that which doesn't gets cutoff and thrown into the fire. I've never said either that workers or their ministry are the only way to be saved. I'm not exclusive that way. You seem exclusive yourself though. For you 2x2ism is a dead-end, but nothing else is. Mat_3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Mat_7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. Mat_7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Mat_7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Mat_12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. Mat_13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold. Mat_13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. Mat_13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. Mat_21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away. Mat_21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. Mat_26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. Mar_4:7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit. Mar_4:8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred. Mar_4:20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred. Mar_4:28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear. Mar_4:29 But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come. Mar_11:14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it. Mar_12:2 And at the season he sent to the husbandmen a servant, that he might receive from the husbandmen of the fruit of the vineyard. Mar_14:25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God. Luk_1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. Luk_3:9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Luk_6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Luk_6:44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. Luk_8:8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. Luk_8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. Luk_8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. Luk_13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Luk_13:7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? Luk_13:9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down. Luk_20:10 And at the season he sent a servant to the husbandmen, that they should give him of the fruit of the vineyard: but the husbandmen beat him, and sent him away empty. Luk_22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. Joh_4:36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together. Joh_12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. Joh_15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Joh_15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. Joh_15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. Joh_15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. Following God/Jesus/HS is not a do nothing Christian proposition. Read and pray better...
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 15, 2023 20:32:46 GMT -5
@wally - your tree is bearing bad fruit. We are currently watching it be cut down.
A form of ministry is NOT fruit. Go check the "fruit of the spirit" lists in the Bible, which you ommitted to include. The Fruit of the Spirit is to be produced in all believers, not just leaders living a particular lifestyle.
Yes, short term. Jesus' ministry was LESS THAN THREE YEARS. After that we see the early church in Acts, with married apostles, Phillip the evangelist with all his children (hint: evangelist means preacher), John, the apostle whom jesus loved with his own home (John 19:27). Elders who are married and preach and teach and oversee the affairs of the church.
William Irvine, Founder the Two-by-Twos, is about the only person in history who thought the temporary mission never finished.
He proved to be a false prophet. THIS is the bedrock on which your ministry is founded. A misunderstanding of scripture and a false prophet. Currently bearing fruit of endemic sexual misconduct at every level.
Irvine called it his "great experiment". I'd say it's a failed experiment.
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Post by Pragmatic on May 15, 2023 20:44:39 GMT -5
@wally - your tree is bearing bad fruit. We are currently watching it be cut down. A form of ministry is NOT fruit. Go check the "fruit of the spirit" lists in the Bible, which you ommitted to include. The Fruit of the Spirit is to be produced in all believers, not just leaders living a particular lifestyle. Yes, short term. Jesus' ministry was LESS THAN THREE YEARS. After that we see the early church in Acts, with married apostles, Phillip the evangelist with all his children (hint: evangelist means preacher), John, the apostle whom jesus loved with his own home (John 19:27). Elders who are married and preach and teach and oversee the affairs of the church. William Irvine, Founder the Two-by-Twos, is about the only person in history who thought the temporary mission never finished. He proved to be a false prophet. THIS is the bedrock on which your ministry is founded. A misunderstanding of scripture and a false prophet. Currently bearing fruit of endemic sexual misconduct at every level. Irvine called it his "great experiment". I'd say it's a failed experiment. I put this on another thread, but it's apt for here too. I personally don't like Legge's style, but the contents, not the container, is the important bit.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 15, 2023 21:30:23 GMT -5
I put this on another thread, but it's apt for here too. I personally don't like Legge's style, but the contents, not the container, is the important bit.
Thanks Pragmatic. This is an excellent summary of their history and how the false teachings evolved.
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Post by Dan on May 15, 2023 22:29:09 GMT -5
The Truth does have many people handling the money, not one person. I agree that abuses should be monitored and reported. A lone Worker renting motel rooms would have been flagged as an uncategorized expense. The money is spent for travel, medical, etc,. Its not audited like a business because its not a business and its adherents haven't requested financial statements.. Maybe they should?
I believe the 'Bishop' in Tim 3 is today's 'Elder'. Its just describing the qualifications for the Elders of local churches.
What kind of marriage would work for itinerant preachers? They could never be together or raise a family. Workers forsake all for the gospel sake. And I don't think 1 Tim 4 is referencing the ministry, but what they teach the congregation.
The actions taken of late are clearly demonstrating that they aren't allowing Workers to be sexually immoral or active. Some were, and it was covered up, but never officially condoned.
If one believes that the way Jesus sent his disciples out was correct (Mat 10), then they are 100% biblical. Their ultimate example was Christ himself, who went from town to town preaching, was unmarried, and as he told a young man who wanted to follow him, "Sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me" (Luke 18:22).
Jesus' hometown was Capernaum. Yes, he went on preaching tours, but actually lived in Capernaum. Matt 4:13 Leaving Nazareth, he went and lived in CapernaumShow me one verse from Matthew or Luke 10 that the workers actually follow. Seriously. The preachers sent out in pairs with no luggage or purse (Matt 10, Luke 10) went on a short term mission only. To the Jews only. In pairs so they met the Jewish mandate for witnesses. Healing the sick and raising the dead. Before the death and resurrection of Christ. Their ministry looks NOTHING like the workers' ministry. Overall, they gave up their previous livelihoods to go fulltime into ministry work, but there is no suggestion they sold their homes. Quite the contrary. The apostle John still had his at the time of Jesus' crucifixion. He took Jesus' mother into his own home. Do all followers of Jesus have to follow Luke 18:22? Or was this a specific challenge to a specific person? PS - Jesus didn't come to be our example. He didn't come to set up a new ministry. He came to give his life as a ransom for many. Therein lies the greatest misunderstanding of the workers and friends, and why they completely miss the mark when it comes to the gospel.
The KJV says, "And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum". He didn't buy a house, build a church, settle down and live there, its where he started and where he chose his disciples.
The Workers follow; "Freely ye have received, freely give, Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes" (Matthew 10). "Sent them two and two before his face into every city and place" (Luke 10).
Following the example of Christ is what Christianity is all about. And as Wally pointed out, He is the Rock upon which his church is built (Mat 16:18). He did set up the ministry, the apostles established churches in homes, Jesus even reviewed 7 of them in Revelation 2&3.
A Christian by definition is a follower of Christ, his teachings and example. He said he was the Path, and he that keepeth my commandments will be loved by my Father. Keeping the same commandments that Jesus kept is following his example, as is preaching the gospel as he did. Yes, he did give his life for the remission of sin, but also showed us the Way, revealed the Truth, and demonstrated the Life for us to follow.
My previous post was just illustrating why the Workers won't change the basic fundamentals, agree or not, they believe it is structured on sound biblical footing, and that won't be undermined. I personally agree with many of your observances though, I think the original 12 and latter 70 apostles had an exclusive assignment, to carry, spread, and write the gospels.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 15, 2023 22:35:50 GMT -5
Thought for the day:
A tree doesn't bear fruit to prove it has life. A tree bears fruit only when it already has life.
Advice for the day:
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Post by Dan on May 15, 2023 22:37:04 GMT -5
The Truth does have many people handling the money, not one person. I agree that abuses should be monitored and reported. A lone Worker renting motel rooms would have been flagged as an uncategorized expense. The money is spent for travel, medical, etc,. Its not audited like a business because its not a business and its adherents haven't requested financial statements.. Maybe they should?
I believe the 'Bishop' in Tim 3 is today's 'Elder'. Its just describing the qualifications for the Elders of local churches.
What kind of marriage would work for itinerant preachers? They could never be together or raise a family. Workers forsake all for the gospel sake. And I don't think 1 Tim 4 is referencing the ministry, but what they teach the congregation.
The actions taken of late are clearly demonstrating that they aren't allowing Workers to be sexually immoral or active. Some were, and it was covered up, but never officially condoned.
If one believes that the way Jesus sent his disciples out was correct (Mat 10), then they are 100% biblical. Their ultimate example was Christ himself, who went from town to town preaching, was unmarried, and as he told a young man who wanted to follow him, "Sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me" (Luke 18:22).
Peter had a wife. I heard a sister worker at convention speak about her. I know of a husband and wife pair of workers who raised a family. Celibacy has not always been mandatory for workers.
There are married people who have gone into the work, but they didn't get married in the work, nor are they companions. It would be impossible for a married pair of Workers to raise a family, so that had to of occurred prior to entering the work.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 15, 2023 22:55:50 GMT -5
The KJV says, "And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum". He didn't buy a house, build a church, settle down and live there, its where he started and where he chose his disciples.
The Workers follow; "Freely ye have received, freely give, Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes" (Matthew 10). "Sent them two and two before his face into every city and place" (Luke 10).
Following the example of Christ is what Christianity is all about. And as Wally pointed out, He is the Rock upon which his church is built (Mat 16:18). He did set up the ministry, the apostles established churches in homes, Jesus even reviewed 7 of them in Revelation 2&3.
A Christian by definition is a follower of Christ, his teachings and example. He said he was the Path, and he that keepeth my commandments will be loved by my Father. Keeping the same commandments that Jesus kept is following his example, as is preaching the gospel as he did. Yes, he did give his life for the remission of sin, but also showed us the Way, revealed the Truth, and demonstrated the Life for us to follow.
My previous post was just illustrating why the Workers won't change the basic fundamentals, agree or not, they believe it is structured on sound biblical footing, and that won't be undermined. I personally agree with many of your observances though, I think the original 12 and latter 70 apostles had an exclusive assignment, to carry, spread, and write the gospels.
Dan, a Christian is one who believes in Jesus for salvation. If they just follow Jesus as a nice moral example they have missed the entire point of the entire Bible. We cannot keep the same commandments, because Jesus perfectly fulfilled the law (which is what he came to do). Which is precisely what we cannot do. We obey the commandments of God because we are saved, not to be saved. The requirements of Luke 10 and Matthew 10 - in its limited scope to the House of Israel - was completely rescinded in Luke 22. There were no restrictions of any kind attached to Jesus' command to go into all the world preaching the gospel. When Jesus died, he said "it is finished". What did he mean? This was the full coming of the kindgom of God, the end of the Old Covenant, the coming of the New Covenant, written in his blood. All rules and regulations had been fulfilled in him. The requirements of the law had been fulfilled in him, so that they might be fulfilled in us who believe in him. Surprisingly the Christian's obligation to "fulfill the law" is summed up as "loving their neighbour" in numerous places. “Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law." And yet William Irvine taught and conditioned his followers to hate their Christian brethren. This is a hallmark of true evil. Have you listened to the Legge sermon on Cooneyites? No, the workers won't change the basic fundamentals because they don't understand the gospel, and are stuck in a misunderstanding of a few verses taken out of context. But many have come to a true understanding of the gospel, and it has caused them to leave. I can ony pray that continues to happen. I'd love the whole group leadership to turn to the true gospel (and I pray for this), but I cannot see that happening. Those who start preaching grace are usually detected and forced out. A different spirit indeed. Nevertheless, God can and does work miracles.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 15, 2023 22:59:39 GMT -5
Peter had a wife. I heard a sister worker at convention speak about her. I know of a husband and wife pair of workers who raised a family. Celibacy has not always been mandatory for workers.
There are married people who have gone into the work, but they didn't get married in the work, nor are they companions. It would be impossible for a married pair of Workers to raise a family, so that had to of occurred prior to entering the work.
Is your position supported by the Bible? Or just by the current teachings of the workers? Shouldn't your position be based on biblical principles rather than dogma? Perhaps the whole concept of a ministry of unmarried people is just plain wrong? Could that be possible?
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Post by BobWilliston on May 15, 2023 23:52:55 GMT -5
Peter had a wife. I heard a sister worker at convention speak about her. I know of a husband and wife pair of workers who raised a family. Celibacy has not always been mandatory for workers. There are married people who have gone into the work, but they didn't get married in the work, nor are they companions. It would be impossible for a married pair of Workers to raise a family, so that had to of occurred prior to entering the work.
There was a couple of workers on the west coast who got married and continued to preach, have a family, and manage a household. Unusual.
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Post by Dan on May 16, 2023 2:16:35 GMT -5
Dan, a Christian is one who believes in Jesus for salvation. If they just follow Jesus as a nice moral example they have missed the entire point of the entire Bible. We cannot keep the same commandments, because Jesus perfectly fulfilled the law (which is what he came to do). Which is precisely what we cannot do. We obey the commandments of God because we are saved, not to be saved. The requirements of Luke 10 and Matthew 10 - in its limited scope to the House of Israel - was completely rescinded in Luke 22. There were no restrictions of any kind attached to Jesus' command to go into all the world preaching the gospel. When Jesus died, he said "it is finished". What did he mean? This was the full coming of the kindgom of God, the end of the Old Covenant, the coming of the New Covenant, written in his blood. All rules and regulations had been fulfilled in him. The requirements of the law had been fulfilled in him, so that they might be fulfilled in us who believe in him. Surprisingly the Christian's obligation to "fulfill the law" is summed up as "loving their neighbour" in numerous places. “Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law." And yet William Irvine taught and conditioned his followers to hate their Christian brethren. This is a hallmark of true evil. Have you listened to the Legge sermon on Cooneyites? No, the workers won't change the basic fundamentals because they don't understand the gospel, and are stuck in a misunderstanding of a few verses taken out of context. But many have come to a true understanding of the gospel, and it has caused them to leave. I can ony pray that continues to happen. I'd love the whole group leadership to turn to the true gospel (and I pray for this), but I cannot see that happening. Those who start preaching grace are usually detected and forced out. A different spirit indeed. Nevertheless, God can and does work miracles.
" We obey the commandments of God because we are saved, not to be saved.' That could be a good quotable quote . Remember that the House of Israel was scattered all over the place after the northern 10 tribes were conquered by the Assyrians and later intermarried, migrated, and assimilated into various countries. They were placed in the area of the Caucasus Mountains to the North of their Homeland. After 100 years those Israelites became known as Caucasians and that's been their identity ever since. So the limited scope of the House of Israel was actually quite extensive. According to Jesus, the gospel had to published and preached to every nation.
Jesus fulfilled the law but that doesn't make us exempt from the law, the commandments still matter. What he eliminated was the curse (penalty) of the law, but as Paul wrote, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid" (Romans 3:31). While I believe we are saved via Grace through faith, I also believe James, "Faith without works is dead". Jesus also warned of those who "Draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Mat 15:8-9). And Paul warned, "Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things." (Philippians3: 17-19)
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Post by Dan on May 16, 2023 2:30:00 GMT -5
Is your position supported by the Bible? Or just by the current teachings of the workers? Shouldn't your position be based on biblical principles rather than dogma? Perhaps the whole concept of a ministry of unmarried people is just plain wrong? Could that be possible? Its not my position, its just that marriage isn't practical the way the ministry is set up. Catholic Priest have their own residence and aren't in constant travel mode, so it would be more workable for them to have a spouse than for a Worker. But the Truth won't change, Jesus didn't marry and Paul said that it would be better not to marry, probably because it would be a distraction and not conducive to the life style of an itinerant preacher. But then again, I'd rather have a pair of married Workers who lusted for each rather than sexually harass their parishioners . But they believe in separating themselves from the world, leaving fleshly desires behind, and surrendering all for the gospel sake.
There was a couple of workers on the west coast who got married and continued to preach, have a family, and manage a household. Unusual.
Never heard of that before? How did they manage a household? They could not have been itinerantly preaching in different fields if they lived in one spot? Who paid their bills and were the kids constantly changing schools? I'm guessing that arrangement didn't last too long.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2023 2:48:45 GMT -5
@wally - your tree is bearing bad fruit. We are currently watching it be cut down. A form of ministry is NOT fruit. Go check the "fruit of the spirit" lists in the Bible, which you ommitted to include. The Fruit of the Spirit is to be produced in all believers, not just leaders living a particular lifestyle. Yes, short term. Jesus' ministry was LESS THAN THREE YEARS. After that we see the early church in Acts, with married apostles, Phillip the evangelist with all his children (hint: evangelist means preacher), John, the apostle whom jesus loved with his own home (John 19:27). Elders who are married and preach and teach and oversee the affairs of the church. William Irvine, Founder the Two-by-Twos, is about the only person in history who thought the temporary mission never finished. He proved to be a false prophet. THIS is the bedrock on which your ministry is founded. A misunderstanding of scripture and a false prophet. Currently bearing fruit of endemic sexual misconduct at every level. Irvine called it his "great experiment". I'd say it's a failed experiment. Ah, no answer for the verses I quoted, was expecting that and you met the expectation quite well... Never said the ministry form was bearing fruit. You should not makeup things like that God is watching. I've quote about the fruits of the spirit being tied to bearing fruit many times here, no omission happened. Your memory slipping a bit there? Jesus's ministry was short term cause they crucified him. That has nothing to do with Matt 10 or Luke 10 or Matt 28 or any other part of the bible. Anyone's ministry would be short term if they are killed or die. There is slight confused over Philip the evangelist and Philip the apostle. They might have been the same person or not. The one you point out "the evangelist" was one of the seven appointed to take care of the widows and such in the church in an administrative position or work position they were to take care of the widows and such the apostles appointed them saying they wouldn't do that kind of job/work but the seven men could. The seven have been called deacons. So, Philip the evangelist was probably a deacon not an apostle (or minister or whatever label you want to apply). For someone who is our "bedrock" he was certainly removed quickly and easily. Do better research, you'll never be able to dismantle the church you hate with your lack of knowledge and very transparent agenda... Try again...
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2023 2:53:38 GMT -5
Thought for the day: A tree doesn't bear fruit to prove it has life. A tree bears fruit only when it already has life. Advice for the day: Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it. Christ is the vine, everyone else are the branches, it's the branches that bear the fruit IF they stay connected to the vine.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2023 3:10:05 GMT -5
The KJV says, "And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum". He didn't buy a house, build a church, settle down and live there, its where he started and where he chose his disciples.
The Workers follow; "Freely ye have received, freely give, Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes" (Matthew 10). "Sent them two and two before his face into every city and place" (Luke 10).
Following the example of Christ is what Christianity is all about. And as Wally pointed out, He is the Rock upon which his church is built (Mat 16:18). He did set up the ministry, the apostles established churches in homes, Jesus even reviewed 7 of them in Revelation 2&3.
A Christian by definition is a follower of Christ, his teachings and example. He said he was the Path, and he that keepeth my commandments will be loved by my Father. Keeping the same commandments that Jesus kept is following his example, as is preaching the gospel as he did. Yes, he did give his life for the remission of sin, but also showed us the Way, revealed the Truth, and demonstrated the Life for us to follow.
My previous post was just illustrating why the Workers won't change the basic fundamentals, agree or not, they believe it is structured on sound biblical footing, and that won't be undermined. I personally agree with many of your observances though, I think the original 12 and latter 70 apostles had an exclusive assignment, to carry, spread, and write the gospels.
Dan, a Christian is one who believes in Jesus for salvation. If they just follow Jesus as a nice moral example they have missed the entire point of the entire Bible. We cannot keep the same commandments, because Jesus perfectly fulfilled the law (which is what he came to do). Which is precisely what we cannot do. We obey the commandments of God because we are saved, not to be saved. The requirements of Luke 10 and Matthew 10 - in its limited scope to the House of Israel - was completely rescinded in Luke 22. There were no restrictions of any kind attached to Jesus' command to go into all the world preaching the gospel. When Jesus died, he said "it is finished". What did he mean? This was the full coming of the kindgom of God, the end of the Old Covenant, the coming of the New Covenant, written in his blood. All rules and regulations had been fulfilled in him. The requirements of the law had been fulfilled in him, so that they might be fulfilled in us who believe in him. Surprisingly the Christian's obligation to "fulfill the law" is summed up as "loving their neighbour" in numerous places. “Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law." And yet William Irvine taught and conditioned his followers to hate their Christian brethren. This is a hallmark of true evil. Have you listened to the Legge sermon on Cooneyites? No, the workers won't change the basic fundamentals because they don't understand the gospel, and are stuck in a misunderstanding of a few verses taken out of context. But many have come to a true understanding of the gospel, and it has caused them to leave. I can ony pray that continues to happen. I'd love the whole group leadership to turn to the true gospel (and I pray for this), but I cannot see that happening. Those who start preaching grace are usually detected and forced out. A different spirit indeed. Nevertheless, God can and does work miracles. No one said "they just follow Jesus as a nice moral example" that's what YOU think and probably do. It's called projection. Christ fulfilled the law for us. This means we can say we fulfilled the law too with his shed blood for us. We can't be perfect either, but we can be perfect through Christ. Luke 22 doesn't rescind anything about Israel YET. Look to Matt 28 for that when gentiles can be included. So lost so little time.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2023 3:13:31 GMT -5
Is your position supported by the Bible? Or just by the current teachings of the workers? Shouldn't your position be based on biblical principles rather than dogma? Perhaps the whole concept of a ministry of unmarried people is just plain wrong? Could that be possible? Its not my position, its just that marriage isn't practical the way the ministry is set up. Catholic Priest have their own residence and aren't in constant travel mode, so it would be more workable for them to have a spouse than for a Worker. But the Truth won't change, Jesus didn't marry and Paul said that it would be better not to marry, probably because it would be a distraction and not conducive to the life style of an itinerant preacher. But then again, I'd rather have a pair of married Workers who lusted for each rather than sexually harass their parishioners . But they believe in separating themselves from the world, leaving fleshly desires behind, and surrendering all for the gospel sake.
There was a couple of workers on the west coast who got married and continued to preach, have a family, and manage a household. Unusual.
Never heard of that before? How did they manage a household? They could not have been itinerantly preaching in different fields if they lived in one spot? Who paid their bills and were the kids constantly changing schools? I'm guessing that arrangement didn't last too long.
The Christies might be who he is talking about. They labored in Hawaii with 2 kids in tow I believe. Not ideal.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 16, 2023 8:13:02 GMT -5
@wally - your tree is bearing bad fruit. We are currently watching it be cut down. A form of ministry is NOT fruit. Go check the "fruit of the spirit" lists in the Bible, which you ommitted to include. The Fruit of the Spirit is to be produced in all believers, not just leaders living a particular lifestyle. Yes, short term. Jesus' ministry was LESS THAN THREE YEARS. After that we see the early church in Acts, with married apostles, Phillip the evangelist with all his children (hint: evangelist means preacher), John, the apostle whom jesus loved with his own home (John 19:27). Elders who are married and preach and teach and oversee the affairs of the church. William Irvine, Founder the Two-by-Twos, is about the only person in history who thought the temporary mission never finished. He proved to be a false prophet. THIS is the bedrock on which your ministry is founded. A misunderstanding of scripture and a false prophet. Currently bearing fruit of endemic sexual misconduct at every level. Irvine called it his "great experiment". I'd say it's a failed experiment. Ah, no answer for the verses I quoted, was expecting that and you met the expectation quite well... Never said the ministry form was bearing fruit. You should not makeup things like that God is watching. I've quote about the fruits of the spirit being tied to bearing fruit many times here, no omission happened. Your memory slipping a bit there? Jesus's ministry was short term cause they crucified him. That has nothing to do with Matt 10 or Luke 10 or Matt 28 or any other part of the bible. Anyone's ministry would be short term if they are killed or die. There is slight confused over Philip the evangelist and Philip the apostle. They might have been the same person or not. The one you point out "the evangelist" was one of the seven appointed to take care of the widows and such in the church in an administrative position or work position they were to take care of the widows and such the apostles appointed them saying they wouldn't do that kind of job/work but the seven men could. The seven have been called deacons. So, Philip the evangelist was probably a deacon not an apostle (or minister or whatever label you want to apply). For someone who is our "bedrock" he was certainly removed quickly and easily. Do better research, you'll never be able to dismantle the church you hate with your lack of knowledge and very transparent agenda... Try again... "removed quickly and easily" ? No. The group as a whole still believes every fase thing he taught. The bedrock remains. The fixation with LUke 10 and Matthew 10, the separation from other Christians and churches, the Living Witness Doctrine. I don't have to do anything to dismantle the church. It's doing a fine job of that all on its own. The list of workers, overseers and elders being removed grows daily. Sometimes several in a day. The disciples' mission of luke 10 and Matt 10 was short term. It was only valid during Jesus' time of ministry, and therefore is proven to be short term. If they were to be witnesses to Christ, and only go to Jews in the places Jesus himself was about to go, that specific ministry HAD to end when Jesus' life ended. After that the fullness of the gospel was to be preached to all the world. Different message, different method, different purpose. I have no problem with all the verses you posted. Believe all of them. What do you want me to say? They speak for themselves. All true believers will bear fruit in keeping with repentance. Faith without works is dead. I have never denied any of this. I only deny that the workers are able to be saved by their form of ministry (which they insist is the only true ministry). But insistence on the two-by-two ministry as a requirement for salvation sets up a whole new law to be obeyed, and one is no longer saved by faith, but by attempted works. You may say you are not exclusive, and don't believe this, BUT YOUR GROUP DOES. The workers have made their ministry, and meeting in the home, the new law to be met. They talk about their own "sacrifice" far more than the sacrifice of Jesus. You also claim not to be exclusive, but constantly deride my understanding of Christian faith. Why is that? What am I missing @wally? Where have I got it wrong?
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 16, 2023 8:26:58 GMT -5
" We obey the commandments of God because we are saved, not to be saved.' That could be a good quotable quote . Remember that the House of Israel was scattered all over the place after the northern 10 tribes were conquered by the Assyrians and later intermarried, migrated, and assimilated into various countries. They were placed in the area of the Caucasus Mountains to the North of their Homeland. After 100 years those Israelites became known as Caucasians and that's been their identity ever since. So the limited scope of the House of Israel was actually quite extensive. According to Jesus, the gospel had to published and preached to every nation.
Jesus fulfilled the law but that doesn't make us exempt from the law, the commandments still matter. What he eliminated was the curse (penalty) of the law, but as Paul wrote, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid" (Romans 3:31). While I believe we are saved via Grace through faith, I also believe James, "Faith without works is dead". Jesus also warned of those who "Draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Mat 15:8-9). And Paul warned, "Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things." (Philippians3: 17-19)
Yes, the scope is huge, and continues to be! Please don't think I believe the commandments don't matter. They do. Absolutely. What I argue against is the two-by-two definition of commandments: the two-by-two ministry; the living witness doctrine, the meeting in the home, not taking offerings, women not cutting hair or wearing jewellery or wearing pants, yadda yadda yadda. What I argue against is the exhaustive live of manmade rules which has replaced the true commandments of God, losing the true gospel in the process. You got it in one when you quoted "in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men". The keeping of all these such commandments as a requirement for salvation puts us back in bondage under the law. Give me any of the real commandments from the Bible and we're on the same page.
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Post by neighbour on May 16, 2023 8:41:28 GMT -5
I have no problem with all the verses you posted. Believe all of them. What do you want me to say? They speak for themselves. All true believers will bear fruit in keeping with repentance. Faith without works is dead. I have never denied any of this. I only deny that the workers are able to be saved by their form of ministry (which they insist is the only true ministry). I challenge anyone to watch the sermons of a grace gospel preacher like David Legge preaching about sin and come away with the idea that he is preaching grace as a license to sin... I've come across many many grace preachers online and they were all militant against sin, moreso than most workers IMO. And it had nothing to do with specifics of fashion etc. There are some great explanations of the wiles of Satan out there.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2023 10:38:23 GMT -5
Ah, no answer for the verses I quoted, was expecting that and you met the expectation quite well... Never said the ministry form was bearing fruit. You should not makeup things like that God is watching. I've quote about the fruits of the spirit being tied to bearing fruit many times here, no omission happened. Your memory slipping a bit there? Jesus's ministry was short term cause they crucified him. That has nothing to do with Matt 10 or Luke 10 or Matt 28 or any other part of the bible. Anyone's ministry would be short term if they are killed or die. There is slight confused over Philip the evangelist and Philip the apostle. They might have been the same person or not. The one you point out "the evangelist" was one of the seven appointed to take care of the widows and such in the church in an administrative position or work position they were to take care of the widows and such the apostles appointed them saying they wouldn't do that kind of job/work but the seven men could. The seven have been called deacons. So, Philip the evangelist was probably a deacon not an apostle (or minister or whatever label you want to apply). For someone who is our "bedrock" he was certainly removed quickly and easily. Do better research, you'll never be able to dismantle the church you hate with your lack of knowledge and very transparent agenda... Try again... "removed quickly and easily" ? No. The group as a whole still believes every fase thing he taught. The bedrock remains. The fixation with LUke 10 and Matthew 10, the separation from other Christians and churches, the Living Witness Doctrine. I don't have to do anything to dismantle the church. It's doing a fine job of that all on its own. The list of workers, overseers and elders being removed grows daily. Sometimes several in a day. The disciples' mission of luke 10 and Matt 10 was short term. It was only valid during Jesus' time of ministry, and therefore is proven to be short term. If they were to be witnesses to Christ, and only go to Jews in the places Jesus himself was about to go, that specific ministry HAD to end when Jesus' life ended. After that the fullness of the gospel was to be preached to all the world. Different message, different method, different purpose. I have no problem with all the verses you posted. Believe all of them. What do you want me to say? They speak for themselves. All true believers will bear fruit in keeping with repentance. Faith without works is dead. I have never denied any of this. I only deny that the workers are able to be saved by their form of ministry (which they insist is the only true ministry). But insistence on the two-by-two ministry as a requirement for salvation sets up a whole new law to be obeyed, and one is no longer saved by faith, but by attempted works. You may say you are not exclusive, and don't believe this, BUT YOUR GROUP DOES. The workers have made their ministry, and meeting in the home, the new law to be met. They talk about their own "sacrifice" far more than the sacrifice of Jesus. You also claim not to be exclusive, but constantly deride my understanding of Christian faith. Why is that? What am I missing @wally ? Where have I got it wrong? That would not be accurate at all. Your transparent attempts speak for themselves. No it wasn't, it never stopped even with his death. Except for the brief scattering of the sheep at Christs death (he showed up and told them to get busy again) for a few days there is no record of them ever saying, okay done now let's go home, Our work is done, nothing left to do etc etc... its continued since the 1st century...it was never short term. There is no different message, different method or a different purpose. Your mind is too clouded to see that. Too bad. You disagreed about bearing fruit and the consequences of not doing so. You were very wrong. You've been out too long and telling yourself these things to justify your leaving for whatever reason. Been there done that. You are not exclusive? You definitely exclude (want it terminated even) the Truth from Christianity. But the Truth can't exclude any other version of Christianity? There is a word for that, it's called hypocrite. You don't have to belong to the 2x2's to find salvation. It's the best Christian method not the only method. Not all 60,000+ denominations are right though and certainly not some individuals. You deride the truth and anyone in about their Christian understanding, you even wrote a non-friendly to 2x2 book about them, why is that? Doesn't feel good does it when you are not the one doing the kicking.
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Post by snow on May 16, 2023 12:24:07 GMT -5
Peter had a wife. I heard a sister worker at convention speak about her. I know of a husband and wife pair of workers who raised a family. Celibacy has not always been mandatory for workers. There are married people who have gone into the work, but they didn't get married in the work, nor are they companions. It would be impossible for a married pair of Workers to raise a family, so that had to of occurred prior to entering the work.
John and Anna Micleatus (sp) got married so that workers could enter Greece many years ago. It happens. And I already supplied a solution for workers to have families and still be workers. Instead of staying in homes in a community the community would share the expense of a home in their area for whoever the visiting workers might be. It would solve several problems. Workers could get married and have children and workers wouldn't have to stay in the friends homes which would make CSA harder to commit. Children could be in school in the area or home schooled. The worker term in an area could be altered to encompass the school year so that children could attend if that's what the parents desired.
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Post by Dan on May 16, 2023 12:46:43 GMT -5
There are married people who have gone into the work, but they didn't get married in the work, nor are they companions. It would be impossible for a married pair of Workers to raise a family, so that had to of occurred prior to entering the work.
John and Anna Micleatus (sp) got married so that workers could enter Greece many years ago. It happens. And I already supplied a solution for workers to have families and still be workers. Instead of staying in homes in a community the community would share the expense of a home in their area for whoever the visiting workers might be. It would solve several problems. Workers could get married and have children and workers wouldn't have to stay in the friends homes which would make CSA harder to commit. Children could be in school in the area or home schooled. The worker term in an area could be altered to encompass the school year so that children could attend if that's what the parents desired. That would work, but your pretty much describing a regular church, the only exception being no church building, and meeting in homes would remain intact. So I doubt that idea would fly.
Friends would essentially be buying houses for Workers. That would make it an expensive church and require some hefty contributions. Why not just put them on a salary and let them rent apartments?
That of course will never happen because its not biblical to them and there would be no differentiation between the one true way and your average run-of-the-mill worldly churches.
So radical altercations aren't on the horizon and won't be tolerated.. Next thing you know, some silly goose will want that trinity idea to be thrown into the mix.
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Post by snow on May 16, 2023 13:17:50 GMT -5
John and Anna Micleatus (sp) got married so that workers could enter Greece many years ago. It happens. And I already supplied a solution for workers to have families and still be workers. Instead of staying in homes in a community the community would share the expense of a home in their area for whoever the visiting workers might be. It would solve several problems. Workers could get married and have children and workers wouldn't have to stay in the friends homes which would make CSA harder to commit. Children could be in school in the area or home schooled. The worker term in an area could be altered to encompass the school year so that children could attend if that's what the parents desired. That would work, but your pretty much describing a regular church, the only exception being no church building, and meeting in homes would remain intact. So I doubt that idea would fly.
Friends would essentially be buying houses for Workers. That would make it an expensive church and require some hefty contributions. Why not just put them on a salary and let them rent apartments?
That of course will never happen because its not biblical to them and there would be no differentiation between the one true way and your average run-of-the-mill worldly churches.
So radical altercations aren't on the horizon and won't be tolerated.. Next thing you know, some silly goose will want that trinity idea to be thrown into the mix. It's a solution even if it might be more expensive for the friends. It's one that would work and if something major doesn't change I believe this latest bombshell will end the group or really downsize it to the point where the workers that remain won't have the membership to support them.
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Post by Grant on May 16, 2023 15:13:39 GMT -5
Often workers stay in apartments in some countries. I've heard it happened in some 3rd world countries. Bangladesh for example. Rent is paid for by the friends and ministry.
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Post by getreal on May 16, 2023 15:21:35 GMT -5
Workers have rented bach’s, the old term, or apt since the beginning of this thing and overseas it is a very common practice due to the few friends in many parts. They may travel to spend a night with far flung friends but return to their base. This is really not an issue to debate. Even in my time workers have rarely, but they have tried it, rented in a perhaps isolated community or to just get closer to the community to meet people. There is nothing biblical or doctrinal even an issue here. It is quite doable. I was in some really small fields sometimes and it is hard when you have just a few friends to stay with. It’s hard on the friends too.
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Post by Grant on May 16, 2023 15:45:40 GMT -5
"removed quickly and easily" ? No. The group as a whole still believes every fase thing he taught. The bedrock remains. The fixation with LUke 10 and Matthew 10, the separation from other Christians and churches, the Living Witness Doctrine. I don't have to do anything to dismantle the church. It's doing a fine job of that all on its own. The list of workers, overseers and elders being removed grows daily. Sometimes several in a day. The disciples' mission of luke 10 and Matt 10 was short term. It was only valid during Jesus' time of ministry, and therefore is proven to be short term. If they were to be witnesses to Christ, and only go to Jews in the places Jesus himself was about to go, that specific ministry HAD to end when Jesus' life ended. After that the fullness of the gospel was to be preached to all the world. Different message, different method, different purpose. I have no problem with all the verses you posted. Believe all of them. What do you want me to say? They speak for themselves. All true believers will bear fruit in keeping with repentance. Faith without works is dead. I have never denied any of this. I only deny that the workers are able to be saved by their form of ministry (which they insist is the only true ministry). But insistence on the two-by-two ministry as a requirement for salvation sets up a whole new law to be obeyed, and one is no longer saved by faith, but by attempted works. You may say you are not exclusive, and don't believe this, BUT YOUR GROUP DOES. The workers have made their ministry, and meeting in the home, the new law to be met. They talk about their own "sacrifice" far more than the sacrifice of Jesus. You also claim not to be exclusive, but constantly deride my understanding of Christian faith. Why is that? What am I missing @wally ? Where have I got it wrong? That would not be accurate at all. Your transparent attempts speak for themselves. No it wasn't, it never stopped even with his death. Except for the brief scattering of the sheep at Christs death (he showed up and told them to get busy again) for a few days there is no record of them ever saying, okay done now let's go home, Our work is done, nothing left to do etc etc... its continued since the 1st century...it was never short term. There is no different message, different method or a different purpose. Your mind is too clouded to see that. Too bad. You disagreed about bearing fruit and the consequences of not doing so. You were very wrong. You've been out too long and telling yourself these things to justify your leaving for whatever reason. Been there done that. You are not exclusive? You definitely exclude (want it terminated even) the Truth from Christianity. But the Truth can't exclude any other version of Christianity? There is a word for that, it's called hypocrite. You don't have to belong to the 2x2's to find salvation. It's the best Christian method not the only method. Not all 60,000+ denominations are right though and certainly not some individuals. You deride the truth and anyone in about their Christian understanding, you even wrote a non-friendly to 2x2 book about them, why is that? Doesn't feel good does it when you are not the one doing the kicking. The workers have the attitude that their work is done. No evangelizing and just visiting their own. Reminds me of Irvine who went to Jerusalem to await the Lord's return. What are the workers sitting waiting for? What is the purpose of workers these days? None, they are just bishops over the existing flock. Where are the evangelists, missionaries, apostles or those like the early workers? The ministry has died out. Wally says the workers ministry is the best way. It's far from the best way, in fact it's the worst way. Time has proven that. We can see it's fruit and lack of. Did Jesus change the method of going out penniless as Matthew 10 states. Yes the verses around and including Luke 22 v 36 show that Jesus changed it when he went to the Cross and would no longer be with them. He was clear in his instructions which the workers ignore Now take purse scrip, sword etc
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Post by Pragmatic on May 16, 2023 17:43:13 GMT -5
That would not be accurate at all. Your transparent attempts speak for themselves. No it wasn't, it never stopped even with his death. Except for the brief scattering of the sheep at Christs death (he showed up and told them to get busy again) for a few days there is no record of them ever saying, okay done now let's go home, Our work is done, nothing left to do etc etc... its continued since the 1st century...it was never short term. There is no different message, different method or a different purpose. Your mind is too clouded to see that. Too bad. You disagreed about bearing fruit and the consequences of not doing so. You were very wrong. You've been out too long and telling yourself these things to justify your leaving for whatever reason. Been there done that. You are not exclusive? You definitely exclude (want it terminated even) the Truth from Christianity. But the Truth can't exclude any other version of Christianity? There is a word for that, it's called hypocrite. You don't have to belong to the 2x2's to find salvation. It's the best Christian method not the only method. Not all 60,000+ denominations are right though and certainly not some individuals. You deride the truth and anyone in about their Christian understanding, you even wrote a non-friendly to 2x2 book about them, why is that? Doesn't feel good does it when you are not the one doing the kicking. The workers have the attitude that their work is done. No evangelizing and just visiting their own. Reminds me of Irvine who went to Jerusalem to await the Lord's return. What are the workers sitting waiting for? What is the purpose of workers these days? None, they are just bishops over the existing flock. Where are the evangelists, missionaries, apostles or those like the early workers? The ministry has died out. Wally says the workers ministry is the best way. It's far from the best way, in fact it's the worst way. Time has proven that. We can see it's fruit and lack of. Did Jesus change the method of going out penniless as Matthew 10 states. Yes the verses around and including Luke 22 v 36 show that Jesus changed it when he went to the Cross and would no longer be with them. He was clear in his instructions which the workers ignore Now take purse scrip, sword etc With pure hearts, it is a good way, and with checks and balances. Unrestrained human nature is ruining it though. However, I can see where you're coming from, and the church needs grasp the changes required to reverse this trend.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 16, 2023 17:46:51 GMT -5
That would not be accurate at all. Your transparent attempts speak for themselves. No it wasn't, it never stopped even with his death. Except for the brief scattering of the sheep at Christs death (he showed up and told them to get busy again) for a few days there is no record of them ever saying, okay done now let's go home, Our work is done, nothing left to do etc etc... its continued since the 1st century...it was never short term. There is no different message, different method or a different purpose. Your mind is too clouded to see that. Too bad. You disagreed about bearing fruit and the consequences of not doing so. You were very wrong. You've been out too long and telling yourself these things to justify your leaving for whatever reason. Been there done that. You are not exclusive? You definitely exclude (want it terminated even) the Truth from Christianity. But the Truth can't exclude any other version of Christianity? There is a word for that, it's called hypocrite. You don't have to belong to the 2x2's to find salvation. It's the best Christian method not the only method. Not all 60,000+ denominations are right though and certainly not some individuals. You deride the truth and anyone in about their Christian understanding, you even wrote a non-friendly to 2x2 book about them, why is that? Doesn't feel good does it when you are not the one doing the kicking. I've excluded the Truth from Chrisitianty? That's surely a joke. Irvine separated the group from the Christianity long ago and you follow in his footsteps. Yep, different message, different method, different purpose. During Christ's ministry: Method - Going out on a short term mission with a short term message. Taking no luggage, money to make haste and show God's provision. These instructions given to a specific small group of people only. Message - "The Kingdom of heaven has come near"Purpose - To go first to the House of Israel, as prophesied. To go only to the places Jesus himself was about to go. To witness to the power of the Christ who had come - authority over spirits, healing every disease and sickness. After Christ's ministry: Method: - Go out into all the world. Take whatever you need. Message - "We preach Christ crucified"Purpose - Make disciples of all nations (Jews and Gentiles). If you'd actually read my book you'd know I don't deride the faith of those in the 'truth'. You speak from pure ignorance. But now I remember why there's no point talking to you. Stupid me. Same spirit as Review. Carry on.
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