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Post by Admin on Mar 27, 2023 17:32:08 GMT -5
I have been asked by a staunch Christian friend to post on their behalf (following post) some thoughts on the need for reform. The Bruer abuse has simply exacerbated the need for revival and reform in the F&W church. Abuse (invariably by those in positions of some power or authority) takes many forms. - CSA
- adult sexual abuse
- mistreatment of junior workers, especially young females, including by their 2x2 companion
- shunning
- wielding harsh judgement and punishment
- etc.
elizabethcoleman has raised one issue needing reform in her recent thread professing.proboards.com/post/1041584/thread
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Post by Admin on Mar 27, 2023 17:33:31 GMT -5
Here is what our friend asked to be posted on TMB:
Dean Bruer – Another wakeup call for members of the 2x2 workers and friends church which is not ‘The Truth’
It is terrible if a person sexually abuses another person
It is even worse if they abuse a young person
It is even worse if they abuse multiple people
It is even worse if it continues for many years
It is even worse if others know about it and do nothing to stop it
It is even worse if the person is in a position of supposed authority
It is even worse if the abuser shows complete hypocrisy by being a religious teacher with supposed moral authority
It is even worse if other people in authority undertake similar abuse and thereby provide validation
It is even worse if other people in authority actively hide abuse over many years
There were complaints about Dean Bruer’s early companions, dating back to the 1970s. Those complaints were ignored, allowing Bruer to learn that abuse was accepted in the 2x2 workers and friends ministry, and then to carry out abuse himself over many years.
The 2x2 workers and friends ministry prides itself on its financial secrecy, yet that allowed Bruer to accumulate sufficient funds to pay for many hotel visits.
The 2x2 workers and friends ministry prides itself on its ‘homeless ministry’ yet Bruer frequently paid for hotel rooms.
The 2x2 workers and friends ministry are now claiming that transparency is appropriate yet once again they have NOT been transparent.
• The 2x2 workers and friends ministry did not disclose the information about Bruer for many months
• The 2x2 workers and friends ministry initial disclosure about Dean Bruer was limited to certain people, with instructions to not share it further
• The 2x2 workers and friends ministry has failed to be transparent in other cases, even resulting in charges against an overseer, yet they continue the same lack of transparency
The 404 tributes that were posted on the Dean Bruer’s funeral memorial page are evidence of 404 people being utterly deceived, and there are thousands more who have been deceived over many years.
Dean Bruer is evidence that the workers may be worse than the people they are instructing.
Dean Bruer is more evidence that the unmarried ministry fosters sexual abuse.
Dean Bruer is evidence that the 2x2 workers and friends church should never be called ‘The Truth’ or ‘The Way’.
Dean Bruer is evidence that ‘the way’ is imperfect and is definitely not the ‘one true way’.
The 2x2 workers and friends ministry has evolved significantly during its ~120 years of existence, but it will not survive unless it dramatically reforms itself now. Membership numbers continue to reduce significantly, not because ‘the end is near’ but because people now have access to information that clearly shows the faults in the church, its doctrine and its ministry.
The 2x2 workers and friends ministry must immediately
• Reform financial arrangements; disclose current reserves of funds; implement independent management of reserve funds and transparent reporting to members about stewardship of accumulated funds
• Reform the requirement for an unmarried ministry, which is not biblical and was not a requirement for many years after the church was established
• Reform the hierarchy of [male] overseers – senior male workers – general male workers – female workers
• Involve general members in major decisions
• Be transparent about disciplinary matters.
Note: Many workers are entirely honourable and innocent, but Dean Bruer is not the only abuser who has been tolerated and protected. Any worker who has known of abuse but has failed to act should immediately resign and let the others get on with reforming their church.
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Post by verna on Mar 27, 2023 17:51:22 GMT -5
I have been asked by a staunch Christian friend to post on their behalf (following post) some thoughts on the need for reform. The Bruer abuse has simply exacerbated the need for revival and reform in the F&W church. Abuse (invariably by those in positions of some power or authority) takes many forms. - CSA
- adult sexual abuse
- mistreatment of junior workers, especially young females, including by their 2x2 companion
- shunning
- wielding harsh judgement and punishment
- etc.
elizabethcoleman has raised one issue needing reform in her recent thread professing.proboards.com/post/1041584/threadI’m assuming this was not a staunch 2x2 Christian. Am I correct?
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Post by Admin on Mar 27, 2023 18:19:25 GMT -5
I’m assuming this was not a staunch 2x2 Christian. Am I correct? Staunch Christians can be found in all sorts of places, likely and unlikely. "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
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Post by verna on Mar 27, 2023 18:58:27 GMT -5
I’m assuming this was not a staunch 2x2 Christian. Am I correct? Staunch Christians can be found in all sorts of places, likely and unlikely. "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." I appreciate your need to keep privacy.
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Post by CherieKropp on Mar 28, 2023 10:00:13 GMT -5
Here is what our friend asked to be posted on TMB: Dean Bruer – Another wakeup call for members of the 2x2 workers and friends church which is not ‘The Truth’ It is terrible if a person sexually abuses another person It is even worse if they abuse a young person It is even worse if they abuse multiple people It is even worse if it continues for many years It is even worse if others know about it and do nothing to stop it It is even worse if the person is in a position of supposed authority It is even worse if the abuser shows complete hypocrisy by being a religious teacher with supposed moral authority It is even worse if other people in authority undertake similar abuse and thereby provide validation It is even worse if other people in authority actively hide abuse over many years There were complaints about Dean Bruer’s early companions, dating back to the 1970s. Those complaints were ignored, allowing Bruer to learn that abuse was accepted in the 2x2 workers and friends ministry, and then to carry out abuse himself over many years. The 2x2 workers and friends ministry prides itself on its financial secrecy, yet that allowed Bruer to accumulate sufficient funds to pay for many hotel visits. The 2x2 workers and friends ministry prides itself on its ‘homeless ministry’ yet Bruer frequently paid for hotel rooms. The 2x2 workers and friends ministry are now claiming that transparency is appropriate yet once again they have NOT been transparent. • The 2x2 workers and friends ministry did not disclose the information about Bruer for many months • The 2x2 workers and friends ministry initial disclosure about Dean Bruer was limited to certain people, with instructions to not share it further • The 2x2 workers and friends ministry has failed to be transparent in other cases, even resulting in charges against an overseer, yet they continue the same lack of transparency The 404 tributes that were posted on the Dean Bruer’s funeral memorial page are evidence of 404 people being utterly deceived, and there are thousands more who have been deceived over many years. Dean Bruer is evidence that the workers may be worse than the people they are instructing. Dean Bruer is more evidence that the unmarried ministry fosters sexual abuse. Dean Bruer is evidence that the 2x2 workers and friends church should never be called ‘The Truth’ or ‘The Way’. Dean Bruer is evidence that ‘the way’ is imperfect and is definitely not the ‘one true way’. The 2x2 workers and friends ministry has evolved significantly during its ~120 years of existence, but it will not survive unless it dramatically reforms itself now. Membership numbers continue to reduce significantly, not because ‘the end is near’ but because people now have access to information that clearly shows the faults in the church, its doctrine and its ministry. The 2x2 workers and friends ministry must immediately • Reform financial arrangements; disclose current reserves of funds; implement independent management of reserve funds and transparent reporting to members about stewardship of accumulated funds • Reform the requirement for an unmarried ministry, which is not biblical and was not a requirement for many years after the church was established • Reform the hierarchy of [male] overseers – senior male workers – general male workers – female workers • Involve general members in major decisions • Be transparent about disciplinary matters. Note: Many workers are entirely honourable and innocent, but Dean Bruer is not the only abuser who has been tolerated and protected. Any worker who has known of abuse but has failed to act should immediately resign and let the others get on with reforming their church. The above is very impressive and spot on!!! Possibly add workers no longer stay in friends' homes......... It appears it's now time for a new sub group of concerned 2x2s to be formed: 2x2 Church Reformationist
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Post by mountain on Mar 28, 2023 10:51:37 GMT -5
Dean Bruer in his position as Overseer is an obvious indicator why 'some' those at the top may have been reluctant to embrace changes to the system during the last ten years or so? They may have a lot to hide and a lot to protect. I am assuming his 'activities' which had apparently gone on for many years, had been continuing up to more recent times? With all the publicity coming out in recent years about CSA and sexual practices amongst the ministry, you would have thought that Breur would have been keen to put some distance between himself and his clandestine activities, knowing there was an increasing chance of him being found out?
Whilst I am still prepared to accept that Bruer is more of an exception rather than the rule. I nevertheless feel his type of conduct is far more prevalent than would be believed, although differing somewhat by degree. The worker system was designed by workers for workers. It gives them power and control over the laity, bringing them under their subjection, but ultimately they lose power and control over themselves.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2023 12:58:59 GMT -5
Here is what our friend asked to be posted on TMB: Dean Bruer – Another wakeup call for members of the 2x2 workers and friends church which is not ‘The Truth’ It is terrible if a person sexually abuses another person It is even worse if they abuse a young person It is even worse if they abuse multiple people It is even worse if it continues for many years It is even worse if others know about it and do nothing to stop it It is even worse if the person is in a position of supposed authority It is even worse if the abuser shows complete hypocrisy by being a religious teacher with supposed moral authority It is even worse if other people in authority undertake similar abuse and thereby provide validation It is even worse if other people in authority actively hide abuse over many years There were complaints about Dean Bruer’s early companions, dating back to the 1970s. Those complaints were ignored, allowing Bruer to learn that abuse was accepted in the 2x2 workers and friends ministry, and then to carry out abuse himself over many years. The 2x2 workers and friends ministry prides itself on its financial secrecy, yet that allowed Bruer to accumulate sufficient funds to pay for many hotel visits. The 2x2 workers and friends ministry prides itself on its ‘homeless ministry’ yet Bruer frequently paid for hotel rooms. The 2x2 workers and friends ministry are now claiming that transparency is appropriate yet once again they have NOT been transparent. • The 2x2 workers and friends ministry did not disclose the information about Bruer for many months • The 2x2 workers and friends ministry initial disclosure about Dean Bruer was limited to certain people, with instructions to not share it further • The 2x2 workers and friends ministry has failed to be transparent in other cases, even resulting in charges against an overseer, yet they continue the same lack of transparency The 404 tributes that were posted on the Dean Bruer’s funeral memorial page are evidence of 404 people being utterly deceived, and there are thousands more who have been deceived over many years. Dean Bruer is evidence that the workers may be worse than the people they are instructing. Dean Bruer is more evidence that the unmarried ministry fosters sexual abuse. Dean Bruer is evidence that the 2x2 workers and friends church should never be called ‘The Truth’ or ‘The Way’. Dean Bruer is evidence that ‘the way’ is imperfect and is definitely not the ‘one true way’. The 2x2 workers and friends ministry has evolved significantly during its ~120 years of existence, but it will not survive unless it dramatically reforms itself now. Membership numbers continue to reduce significantly, not because ‘the end is near’ but because people now have access to information that clearly shows the faults in the church, its doctrine and its ministry. The 2x2 workers and friends ministry must immediately • Reform financial arrangements; disclose current reserves of funds; implement independent management of reserve funds and transparent reporting to members about stewardship of accumulated funds • Reform the requirement for an unmarried ministry, which is not biblical and was not a requirement for many years after the church was established • Reform the hierarchy of [male] overseers – senior male workers – general male workers – female workers • Involve general members in major decisions • Be transparent about disciplinary matters. Note: Many workers are entirely honourable and innocent, but Dean Bruer is not the only abuser who has been tolerated and protected. Any worker who has known of abuse but has failed to act should immediately resign and let the others get on with reforming their church. Thats a BIG list and could take a while to go through... A few things though are easy to discuss.. The 2x2 workers and friends ministry prides itself on its ‘homeless ministry’ yet Bruer frequently paid for hotel rooms. Stays at a hotel or the friends homes doesn't negate that they are homeless. They live out of 2 or 3 bags. Thats it.Dean Bruer is more evidence that the unmarried ministry fosters sexual abuse. This shows a clear lack of understanding of CSA and who, what, why, how and where things like this occur. It's an issue everywhere.Reform the requirement for an unmarried ministry, which is not biblical and was not a requirement for many years after the church was established. Christ is our example on this of the messenger servant. It doesn't necessarily need to be written down or verbal for examples. It would be a fundamentalist view of scripture that ignores that. Paul provided a small detail on why it is better done this way. From scripture we can certainly say Peter was married and infer Paul was too since he was a pharisee early on. But there is nothing said about any of the others status. There is one written/verbal clue about this from Christ.
Mat_19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
It's quite biblical.The 2x2 workers and friends ministry initial disclosure about Dean Bruer was limited to certain people, with instructions to not share it further. This is not accurate. From my own verification trip. This was to be shared with EVERYONE in Oregon (initial reporting) then shared with at least several states or even beyond. How other places handle it was left up to them. If Elders refused to share it that would be on them not the ministry. As I found out there is NO LEGAL requirement to tell anyone but LE, a few states require telling the HEAD of the organization. There would be a MORAL requirement though.The 2x2 workers and friends ministry has evolved significantly during its ~120 years of existence, but it will not survive unless it dramatically reforms itself now. Membership numbers continue to reduce significantly, not because ‘the end is near’ but because people now have access to information that clearly shows the faults in the church, its doctrine and its ministry. The falling away at the end is very clear. It doesn't give the details on the reasons/excuses that people have for doing that. We can assume some just don't want to follow God/Christ/HS. All other reasons can be very different and in variety this could include CSA. Other churches are experiencing this too. It's coming true.Reform financial arrangements; disclose current reserves of funds; implement independent management of reserve funds and transparent reporting to members about stewardship of accumulated funds. The way Christ set things up 1900+ years ago had no requirements for anything like this. It is done under the honor system it worked then it should work now. "Transparency" is a modern requirement not a biblical requirement. Christ knew what Judas was doing with the bag, but no requirement was asked of Judas to tell anyone else about anything financial. There is no record of an independent person or group monitoring the Apostles or even among the disciples for the Apostles.
Mat 6:3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
Mat 6:4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
The Truth is not a 501c3 organization at large nor should it be. Trying to modernize the Truth to be like others will make us no different than others and the Truth was largely unique for its time as they tried to structure themselves as closely to the 1st century church as possible. Their efforts are not without merit. The Truth folks in a few places threw hissy fits when they found out about the registered names but seem willing to throw that under the bus over money.
Despite the trust funds, workers rarely have more than a couple hundred in their wallets/purses at any given moment (Nathan and 1 other ex-worker mentioned this). I believe it was mentioned (could be wrong) that if your locals receive 1000 in a year that would be a good year. Thats less than 100 per month. There are not loads of cash floating around for mischief. The newer credit and debit card thing may change that though and is questionable but if the world goes cashless there may be no alternative. Will people abuse this? Sure.There is this verse though but it's very general in nature and not specific to any issue. 2Co 8:21 Providing for honest things, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men. Dean Bruer is evidence that ‘the way’ is imperfect and is definitely not the ‘one true way’. The pedo is NOT the "way" nor the "one true way" Christ is. So, I'll offer up what ES said again over this issue many many years ago, I suspect like I said earlier this will get rejected again. "If Judas is wrong does that make Christ wrong?" If you are focused on Judas you won't be focused on Christ, if you are focused on Judas you probably wont even see Christ. The "way" is indeed perfect, but its people are not. 2x2ism is not the only way but it's the best way IMO. What ES said could be applied to almost any issue also.
My 2 cents...
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Post by Admin on Mar 28, 2023 18:13:43 GMT -5
The above is very impressive and spot on!!! Possibly add workers no longer stay in friends' homes......... It appears it's now time for a new sub group of concerned 2x2s to be formed: 2x2 Church Reformationist How about 'Home Fellowship Church Revival'??! Lots of very good aspects to home fellowship, including personal study to prepare for individual participation in small Sunday worship meetings. (something Irvine got right) But lots of room for improvements and reform, as is being brainstormed here (and elsewhere).
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Post by Pragmatic on Mar 28, 2023 19:29:29 GMT -5
I think there are lots of things this will bring to light and put pressure on for reform. However, Turkey don't usually vote for an early Christmas, not do they have the ability to run a Christmas.
Any reforms such as some form of financial transparency will require help from either outside the church such as professional services, or from those inside. However for legal matters, there won't be too many lawyers inside the church. This was a career that used to be frowned upon, in our country at least.
Essentially it would be asking people to reform something they know into something they do not know, and have had no experience with.
In my opinion, things I would like to see reformed will not happen in my lifetime, but may evolve closer to it over a couple generations. But as long as the laity believe that they have to be "in it" for a ticket to heaven, it's open to abuse of power and privilege.
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Post by Admin on Mar 28, 2023 19:45:56 GMT -5
But as long as the laity believe that they have to be "in it" for a ticket to heaven, it's open to abuse of power and privilege. Changing this (unbiblical) belief is one very essential and foundational reform that would need to happen. For those in the F&W church, note that the Pharisees also held this belief very firmly. It's very useful for exercising control over others.
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Post by openingact34 on Mar 28, 2023 20:02:21 GMT -5
A lot of the exes want to make the 2x2s to adopt the function and theology of their current churches. This conveniently ignores little problem that their current churches also have huge abuse scandals.
With a bunch of entrenched predators (including in leadership positions), you need to actually directly target the problem.
A real emergency action plan might look something like this:
1) Convention is canceled until further notice. Entire community has failed and it's time for the house of mourning, not feasting. 2) With the savings, immediate background checks on all workers, all elders, all alternate elders, and their spouses, and anyone else hosting a meeting. 3) Each worker will be polygraphed regarding witnessing or participating in abuse. This will repeat yearly as long as they want to stay in the ministry. 4) For the next year, workers will not stay in homes. They will relocate to several convention grounds and undergo a program of community service and worldly education, taking college courses in psychology, human sexuality, law, and ethics. Their naivete will be permanently removed. Free time will involve volunteering at charities to aid those who have been harmed. Series of guest speakers organized by WINGS consisting of those who have been abused by 2x2s. Final project will be creating an institutional apology and aid plan. 5) Any future workers or transferring workers will go through a similar onboarding process. 6) New requirement to attend any fellowship meeting. Successful completion of CSA training and test. You get 3 chances to pass the test. Fail and you lose your meeting attendance for a year until you can attempt it again. This requirement applies to EVERYONE over the age of 15, including all visitors to the state. 7) In place of convention, each church will also be doing community service locally, followed by a Sunday session where WINGS arranges for multiple guest speakers who have been victims of abuse within the church. 8) Any resumption of home visits will forbid workers staying overnight in homes where minors are present. 9) Plan and intent will be reviewed with law enforcement 10) Diverse group of members/ex-members acting as ombuds to oversee reforms
Of course, all of this is still an emergency tourniquet. History shows that Christianity is especially prone to these horrific abuses regardless of how many safeguards are put in place. Jesus' doctrine of eternal torture gave him a fast track to an unprecedented following, but opened the door to justify nearly any appalling behavior here on earth if it can save a soul from his more terrifying threats.
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Post by Grant on Mar 28, 2023 20:39:41 GMT -5
The above is very impressive and spot on!!! Possibly add workers no longer stay in friends' homes......... It appears it's now time for a new sub group of concerned 2x2s to be formed: 2x2 Church Reformationist How about 'Home Fellowship Church Revival'??! Lots of very good aspects to home fellowship, including personal study to prepare for individual participation in small Sunday worship meetings. (something Irvine got right) But lots of room for improvements and reform, as is being brainstormed here (and elsewhere). Earlier reports were that Irvine liked women. Wasn't he a womanizer and more?
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Mar 28, 2023 21:00:13 GMT -5
How about 'Home Fellowship Church Revival'??! Lots of very good aspects to home fellowship, including personal study to prepare for individual participation in small Sunday worship meetings. (something Irvine got right) But lots of room for improvements and reform, as is being brainstormed here (and elsewhere). Earlier reports were that Irvine liked women. Wasn't he a womanizer and more? He fathered a child. From memory that child ended up in NZ. Was a minister of religion and buried in CHCH. I may be wrong on some details as I am away from my library.
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Post by Grant on Mar 28, 2023 21:04:30 GMT -5
Earlier reports were that Irvine liked women. Wasn't he a womanizer and more? He fathered a child. From memory that child ended up in NZ. Was a minister of religion and buried in CHCH. I may be wrong on some details as I am away from my library. I'm not talking about that which was before he started the 2x2 church. I'm talking about women he harassed in NZ after he started the church.
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Post by Admin on Mar 28, 2023 21:10:22 GMT -5
How about 'Home Fellowship Church Revival'??! Lots of very good aspects to home fellowship, including personal study to prepare for individual participation in small Sunday worship meetings. (something Irvine got right) But lots of room for improvements and reform, as is being brainstormed here (and elsewhere). Earlier reports were that Irvine liked women. Wasn't he a womanizer and more? Yes, he's not a shining example of moral uprightness by any means. Lots of pride and self-belief in the man. He also went bonkers regarding his doctrinal beliefs (maybe all these traits were nascent in the early Faith Mission Irvine, as he went his own way and formed the F&W 2x2 church)!
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Mar 28, 2023 21:12:26 GMT -5
He fathered a child. From memory that child ended up in NZ. Was a minister of religion and buried in CHCH. I may be wrong on some details as I am away from my library. I'm not talking about that which was before he started the 2x2 church. I'm talking about women he harassed in NZ after he started the church. Correct.Following his visit to NZ, there were no sister workers for a year. Presumably as they feared one or more were pregnant after WI's visit.
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Post by Pragmatic on Mar 28, 2023 21:19:24 GMT -5
He fathered a child. From memory that child ended up in NZ. Was a minister of religion and buried in CHCH. I may be wrong on some details as I am away from my library. I'm not talking about that which was before he started the 2x2 church. I'm talking about women he harassed in NZ after he started the church. Rumour had it here, and Curly may have heard it too, is that yes Irvine was an issue with his "sowing his wild oats", and it seemed that they (the NZ Workers) were unsure of whether or not there would be a crop failure, so all sister workers were stood down for twelve months. Laity were told it was to see if having sister workers was correct doctrine when in fact they didn't know who among the sister workers might be pregnant. This was told to me by my father, and I have had no no interest in validating it beyond that.
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Post by Pragmatic on Mar 28, 2023 21:23:38 GMT -5
I got distracted with a phone call while typing, and didn't see Curly's post
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Post by fixit on Mar 28, 2023 21:46:46 GMT -5
The 2x2 workers and friends ministry initial disclosure about Dean Bruer was limited to certain people, with instructions to not share it further. This is not accurate. From my own verification trip. This was to be shared with EVERYONE in Oregon (initial reporting) then shared with at least several states or even beyond. How other places handle it was left up to them. If Elders refused to share it that would be on them not the ministry. As I found out there is NO LEGAL requirement to tell anyone but LE, a few states require telling the HEAD of the organization. There would be a MORAL requirement though.Did you notice the word initial there Wally?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2023 21:49:40 GMT -5
The 2x2 workers and friends ministry initial disclosure about Dean Bruer was limited to certain people, with instructions to not share it further. This is not accurate. From my own verification trip. This was to be shared with EVERYONE in Oregon (initial reporting) then shared with at least several states or even beyond. How other places handle it was left up to them. If Elders refused to share it that would be on them not the ministry. As I found out there is NO LEGAL requirement to tell anyone but LE, a few states require telling the HEAD of the organization. There would be a MORAL requirement though.Did you notice the word initial there Wally? Did you notice "initial" in my post?
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Post by fixit on Mar 28, 2023 21:50:31 GMT -5
The 2x2 workers and friends ministry has evolved significantly during its ~120 years of existence, but it will not survive unless it dramatically reforms itself now. Membership numbers continue to reduce significantly, not because ‘the end is near’ but because people now have access to information that clearly shows the faults in the church, its doctrine and its ministry. The falling away at the end is very clear. It doesn't give the details on the reasons/excuses that people have for doing that. We can assume some just don't want to follow God/Christ/HS. All other reasons can be very different and in variety this could include CSA. Other churches are experiencing this too. It's coming true.Some leave the organisation because they want to follow Jesus rather than a religious system. System-worshippers are highly esteemed. Those who question it are despised. This is tribal - normal human behaviour seen in established organisations. It's bred into us as humans. In ancient times you would quickly be devoured by a sabre toothed tiger or hostile humans if you didn't stay united with your own tribe.
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Post by fixit on Mar 28, 2023 21:55:47 GMT -5
Dean Bruer is evidence that ‘the way’ is imperfect and is definitely not the ‘one true way’. The pedo is NOT the "way" nor the "one true way" Christ is. So, I'll offer up what ES said again over this issue many many years ago, I suspect like I said earlier this will get rejected again. "If Judas is wrong does that make Christ wrong?" If you are focused on Judas you won't be focused on Christ, if you are focused on Judas you probably wont even see Christ. The "way" is indeed perfect, but its people are not. 2x2ism is not the only way but it's the best way IMO. What ES said could be applied to almost any issue also.
My 2 cents...Jesus said "I am the way". Why did people come to refer to a religious group or system as the way? Jesus also said that the kingdom is within you. Why did people come to refer to a religious group or system as the kingdom? Words matter. We should be more careful with the nomenclature.
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Post by fixit on Mar 28, 2023 23:49:43 GMT -5
Did you notice the word initial there Wally? Did you notice "initial" in my post? Yes I did. You quoted this sentence: The 2x2 workers and friends ministry initial disclosure about Dean Bruer was limited to certain people, with instructions to not share it further. Then you responded to it without comprehending the word initial that you copied on to your post. Sloppy posting like this makes it difficult to hold an intelligent discussion with you.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2023 0:03:50 GMT -5
Dean Bruer is evidence that ‘the way’ is imperfect and is definitely not the ‘one true way’. The pedo is NOT the "way" nor the "one true way" Christ is. So, I'll offer up what ES said again over this issue many many years ago, I suspect like I said earlier this will get rejected again. "If Judas is wrong does that make Christ wrong?" If you are focused on Judas you won't be focused on Christ, if you are focused on Judas you probably wont even see Christ. The "way" is indeed perfect, but its people are not. 2x2ism is not the only way but it's the best way IMO. What ES said could be applied to almost any issue also.
My 2 cents...Jesus said "I am the way". Why did people come to refer to a religious group or system as the way? Jesus also said that the kingdom is within you. Why did people come to refer to a religious group or system as the kingdom? Words matter. We should be more careful with the nomenclature. There are whole bundles of stuff packed into "I am the way"... There are oodles of things packed into "the kingdom of God is within you"...
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Post by fixit on Mar 29, 2023 0:15:44 GMT -5
Jesus said "I am the way". Why did people come to refer to a religious group or system as the way? Jesus also said that the kingdom is within you. Why did people come to refer to a religious group or system as the kingdom? Words matter. We should be more careful with the nomenclature. There are whole bundles of stuff packed into "I am the way"... There are oodles of things packed into "the kingdom of God is within you"... There are whole bundles of stuff and oodles of things could be considered "idolatry".
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2023 0:59:18 GMT -5
Did you notice "initial" in my post? Yes I did. You quoted this sentence: The 2x2 workers and friends ministry initial disclosure about Dean Bruer was limited to certain people, with instructions to not share it further. Then you responded to it without comprehending the word initial that you copied on to your post. Sloppy posting like this makes it difficult to hold an intelligent discussion with you. I re-affirmed the initial but with corrective detail...that you can't grasp that is not unusual...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2023 1:01:33 GMT -5
There are whole bundles of stuff packed into "I am the way"... There are oodles of things packed into "the kingdom of God is within you"... There are whole bundles of stuff and oodles of things could be considered "idolatry". Science over scripture would be one of them on several levels...
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