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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 9, 2020 22:01:45 GMT -5
Is there such a thing as boomerang comprehension? There’s sarcastic things some write I judge it best not to reply to. But you should give some people the occasion to assure you they're not being sarcastic.
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Post by snow on Jan 10, 2020 12:19:18 GMT -5
It is amazing, isn't it, -how our brain works!
I was not afraid, -except for knowing that there was something wrong with my brain & insisting the doctor do something about it instead of just sending me back home.
In fact my daughter said here she was worried about what was happening to me while all the time I just seemed to be "enjoying" what I was seeing!
My son told her just let me enjoy it, -it's like I was on a drug "trip!"
It does not surprise me at all that people report visions after recovering from being near death. I think this TED talk by Jill Bolte Taylor is a good example of just what a brain in trauma can do. We are our brains and a traumatized brain is very capable of hallucinations. LSD trips alter the brain so why wouldn't drug reactions also do that.
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Post by snow on Jan 10, 2020 12:21:33 GMT -5
You still have not explained how come God states we have to do a bunch of thing to be saved and then if we don't we go to hell. That is extortion. It's like someone on the street aiming a gun at my head saying I have to hand over my purse or he will shoot me. I don't have a choice that is done with free will. I have to do it or I die. Same with your God. We have to do what he wants or we're tortured for eternity. But your God is just one of many Gods that are telling me the same thing. Worship them or go to their version of punishment for eternity. You don't give someone free will then make it so that when they choose the wrong thing they get punished. That's not free will, it's extortion. And which hell am I supposed to try and avoid? Don't you see why it's all so ambiguous? That it's just not probable that there are Gods, hells etc? A Muslim believes just as genuinely about Allah and avoiding Muslim hell as you are genuine about believing in Yahweh and the Yahweh hell. But in all likelihood one of you is choosing the wrong god, or in my world, believing in something that does not exist at all. its not extortion you really have nothing that God wants other than your love and obedience....is your spouse extorting you when they don't want you to be unfaithful or they will leave? The thing is if I don't love and obey God he's going to have me tortured for eternity. If I don't love and obey my spouse we get a divorce and remain friends. At least that's been my experience.
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Post by Dan on Jan 10, 2020 13:06:59 GMT -5
The thing is if I don't love and obey God he's going to have me tortured for eternity. If I don't love and obey my spouse we get a divorce and remain friends. At least that's been my experience.
That may be an exaggeration. I doubt God will torture you for eternity. God is righteous, kind, and Just, so a nice person like you won't be tortured, you can take solace in the fact that God will kill you quickly.
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Post by snow on Jan 10, 2020 13:41:14 GMT -5
The thing is if I don't love and obey God he's going to have me tortured for eternity. If I don't love and obey my spouse we get a divorce and remain friends. At least that's been my experience. That may be an exaggeration. I doubt God will torture you for eternity. God is righteous, kind, and Just, so a nice person like you won't be tortured, you can take solace in the fact that God will kill you quickly.
I'm good with that. But it's not what most here believe. If there isn't an eternity of torture or for some 'torment', they aren't happy. If your god is all merciful and all loving it would make more sense that he just annihilate those that don't make the cut. But the bible doesn't support that either. Those who are telling me I'm going to hell for eternity do have scripture to back up their words.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 10, 2020 14:15:57 GMT -5
The thing is if I don't love and obey God he's going to have me tortured for eternity. If I don't love and obey my spouse we get a divorce and remain friends. At least that's been my experience. That may be an exaggeration. I doubt God will torture you for eternity. God is righteous, kind, and Just, so a nice person like you won't be tortured, you can take solace in the fact that God will kill you quickly.
Indeed Snow is one of the nicest people I have ever known. No argument there.
But from the study of both the new testament and the old testament, -I do not see that god as being "righteous, kind, and just." Any "god' who tells HIS people to kill whole groups of OTHER people, -even the "suckling babies," as is plainly stated in the OT, doesn't deserve my respect, - let alone my "worship!"
Even in the NT Jesus speaks of dividing the "sheep," from the "goats" and casting them "into the eternal fire." Why should anyone of mere flesh & bone, -a venerable human being be punished in such a way just because they don't believe that such a horrible entity even exists to start with & wants nothing to do with such an entity if indeed HE did exist?
I couldn't defend such actions in a person, -why should I in defend such actions in a supernatural being which may not even exist?
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Post by Annan on Jan 10, 2020 14:33:49 GMT -5
The thing is if I don't love and obey God he's going to have me tortured for eternity. If I don't love and obey my spouse we get a divorce and remain friends. At least that's been my experience. Same here. My second husband and I host my ex for all the holiday dinners and cookouts. Staying friends benefits all parties, especially the children.
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Post by Annan on Jan 10, 2020 14:35:32 GMT -5
The thing is if I don't love and obey God he's going to have me tortured for eternity. If I don't love and obey my spouse we get a divorce and remain friends. At least that's been my experience. That may be an exaggeration. I doubt God will torture you for eternity. God is righteous, kind, and Just, so a nice person like you won't be tortured, you can take solace in the fact that God will kill you quickly.
Kill us quickly? So does God only torture Christians to death? You know, to refine them?
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Post by Annan on Jan 10, 2020 14:38:10 GMT -5
That may be an exaggeration. I doubt God will torture you for eternity. God is righteous, kind, and Just, so a nice person like you won't be tortured, you can take solace in the fact that God will kill you quickly.
I'm good with that. But it's not what most here believe. If there isn't an eternity of torture or for some 'torment', they aren't happy. If your god is all merciful and all loving it would make more sense that he just annihilate those that don't make the cut. But the bible doesn't support that either. Those who are telling me I'm going to hell for eternity do have scripture to back up their words. What I don't get is that they don't see it for what it is, a scare tactic. Reminds me of moms who say, "Wait till your father gets home!"
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Post by Annan on Jan 10, 2020 14:40:14 GMT -5
Because it bears repeating... But from the study of both the new testament and the old testament, -I do not see that god as being "righteous, kind, and just."
Any "god' who tells HIS people to kill whole groups of OTHER people, -even the "suckling babies," as is plainly stated in the OT, doesn't deserve my respect, - let alone my "worship!"
Even in the NT Jesus speaks of dividing the "sheep," from the "goats" and casting them "into the eternal fire."
Why should anyone of mere flesh & bone, -a venerable human being be punished in such a way just because they don't believe that such a horrible entity even exists to start with & wants nothing to do with such a n entity if indeed HE did exist? I couldn't defend such actions in a person, -why should I in defend such actions in a supernatural being which may not even exist?[/b] [/quote] [/font]
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Post by benar on Jan 11, 2020 0:12:00 GMT -5
Is God merciful, or is God just?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2020 0:14:30 GMT -5
Is God merciful, or is God just? he has done both in the bible....
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Post by benar on Jan 11, 2020 0:19:52 GMT -5
Is God merciful, or is God just? he has done both in the bible.... I see, but mercy is the suspension of justice. If one is merciful, one is not just.
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Post by nathan on Jan 11, 2020 0:21:53 GMT -5
he has done both in the bible.... I see, but mercy is the suspension of justice. If one is merciful, one is not just. Like Wally has written God is Both. He is very merciful NOW! but He is a just God in the Day of Judgment.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2020 0:26:25 GMT -5
he has done both in the bible.... I see, but mercy is the suspension of justice. If one is merciful, one is not just. i wouldn't worry about that cause on judgment day everyone will get what they deserve(justice) and further more mercy to a degree is part of the new covenant and not the law of the old covenant...
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Post by benar on Jan 11, 2020 2:07:29 GMT -5
I see, but mercy is the suspension of justice. If one is merciful, one is not just. Like Wally has written God is Both. He is very merciful NOW! but He is a just God in the Day of Judgment.I see, but mercy is the suspension of justice. If one is merciful, one is not just. i wouldn't worry about that cause on judgment day everyone will get what they deserve(justice) and further more mercy to a degree is part of the new covenant and not the law of the old covenant... If a serial killer on death row professes his faith in Jesus Christ, will God be just or merciful when the killer arrives at the Pearly Gates? Remember, if one is being merciful, one is not being just.
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Post by nathan on Jan 11, 2020 2:16:15 GMT -5
Like Wally has written God is Both. He is very merciful NOW! but He is a just God in the Day of Judgment. i wouldn't worry about that cause on judgment day everyone will get what they deserve(justice) and further more mercy to a degree is part of the new covenant and not the law of the old covenant... If a serial killer on death row professes his faith in Jesus Christ, will God be just or merciful when the killer arrives at the Pearly Gates? Remember, if one is being merciful, one is not being just. Yes, God the Father will forgive the serial killer because the blood of the Lamb/Jesus had shed/died and cleansed/forgave his past. God the Father cast all of his sins into the sea of forgetfulness and NEVER to remember ever again.
God the Father is merciful and JUST because He honored/accepted the DEATH of Jesus to forgive for ALL humans sins have done on earth, against him and others.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2020 2:31:39 GMT -5
Like Wally has written God is Both. He is very merciful NOW! but He is a just God in the Day of Judgment. i wouldn't worry about that cause on judgment day everyone will get what they deserve(justice) and further more mercy to a degree is part of the new covenant and not the law of the old covenant... If a serial killer on death row professes his faith in Jesus Christ, will God be just or merciful when the killer arrives at the Pearly Gates? Remember, if one is being merciful, one is not being just. your just repeating the same question....so i will repeat my answer.... i wouldn't worry about that cause on judgment day everyone will get what they deserve(justice) and further more mercy to a degree is part of the new covenant and not the law of the old covenant...
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Post by benar on Jan 11, 2020 2:54:34 GMT -5
If a serial killer on death row professes his faith in Jesus Christ, will God be just or merciful when the killer arrives at the Pearly Gates? Remember, if one is being merciful, one is not being just. your just repeating the same question....so i will repeat my answer.... i wouldn't worry about that cause on judgment day everyone will get what they deserve(justice) and further more mercy to a degree is part of the new covenant and not the law of the old covenant... I repeated the question with a concrete example. Do you think the serial killer deserves a pass just for believing in Jesus?
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Post by benar on Jan 11, 2020 2:55:29 GMT -5
If a serial killer on death row professes his faith in Jesus Christ, will God be just or merciful when the killer arrives at the Pearly Gates? Remember, if one is being merciful, one is not being just. Yes, God the Father will forgive the serial killer because the blood of the Lamb/Jesus had shed/died and cleansed/forgave his past. God the Father cast all of his sins into the sea of forgetfulness and NEVER to remember ever again.
God the Father is merciful and JUST because He honored/accepted the DEATH of Jesus to forgive for ALL humans sins have done on earth, against him and others.
Nathan, do you think it’s fair a serial killer is forgiven?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2020 4:41:56 GMT -5
your just repeating the same question....so i will repeat my answer.... i wouldn't worry about that cause on judgment day everyone will get what they deserve(justice) and further more mercy to a degree is part of the new covenant and not the law of the old covenant... I repeated the question with a concrete example. Do you think the serial killer deserves a pass just for believing in Jesus? Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
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Post by benar on Jan 11, 2020 4:57:29 GMT -5
I repeated the question with a concrete example. Do you think the serial killer deserves a pass just for believing in Jesus? Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Hmmm... Nowhere in your answer do I see the phrase “I think”.
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Post by mountain on Jan 11, 2020 4:58:17 GMT -5
he has done both in the bible.... I see, but mercy is the suspension of justice. If one is merciful, one is not just. This is your understanding. Mercy is an integral part of the justice system. Think about it! Also, don't be a Matthew 23-er. Matthew 23:23 King James Version (KJV) 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.So you see, it was very naughty of the Pharisees and Scribes to omit 'mercy' in weighing up the law. Mercy is just-ified in just cases under the law. Many cases do not merit mercy but some do. This applies even today. Wally, on this issue, is standing on firm ground.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2020 4:59:02 GMT -5
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Hmmm... Nowhere in your answer do I see the phrase “I think”. God has spoken i can add no more to it....
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Post by Grant on Jan 11, 2020 5:13:14 GMT -5
I see, but mercy is the suspension of justice. If one is merciful, one is not just. This is your understanding. Mercy is an integral part of the justice system. Think about it! Also, don't be a Matthew 23-er. Matthew 23:23 King James Version (KJV) 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.. Hi mountain On the other thread the reliability of the Bible, Nathan says that taking the bread and wine means you are worshipping the Trinity. I understand that you do not believe in the Trinity. Do you take the bread and wine at church and if so do you agree that by doing so that you are worshipping the Trinity? Bearing in mind that the Trinity is worshipping Jesus as God and equal to the Father.
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Post by mountain on Jan 11, 2020 5:33:53 GMT -5
This is your understanding. Mercy is an integral part of the justice system. Think about it! Also, don't be a Matthew 23-er. Matthew 23:23 King James Version (KJV) 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.. Hi mountain On the other thread the reliability of the Bible, Nathan says that taking the bread and wine means you believe in the Trinity. I understand that you do not believe in the Trinity. Do you take the bread and wine at church and if so do you agree that by doing so you are saying that you believe it are partaking of the Trinity? Yes enuf, I do partake of the bread and wine at the church. I have certain reservations about it. I and several others observed they were serving up Ribena (blackcurrant juice) as the wine and disagreed with this. However, I had no part in any complaint, but several weeks later they changed it to grape juice which I find acceptable. On a broader issue on this subject I still feel that partaking of the bread and wine is meant to be taken in the home as part of a meal. At the time that Jesus instituted the ceremony, bread and wine were a normal part of a family meal. It was an excellent time to remember Christ and used readily available substances to do it with. The modern day equivalent imo is saying grace before a meal. As often as ye do this ye do it in remembrance of me! So you see, I have certain issues with the taking of bread and wine generally. You are absolutely and steadfastly correct in stating that I do not believe in the man made doctrine of the trinity. At no time have I ever heard anywhere before I read your post, that the partaking of the bread and wine confers a belief or a demand to believe in this trinity stuff. The partaking of the bread and wine is to remember 'Jesus' his sacrifice and the life we are seeking to follow. Goodness me enuf.....we would have to pass the cup around at least three times if we are to believe in three co-equal persons? Why leave the other two out? Just think about it if real wine was being used? Wait a minute! The more I think about it, the more this trinity thing is starting to appeal to me. If we combine real wine and regular participation, then yes Nathan's logic does garner some appeal! As I have said recently, whilst it is okay to have different opinions from Nathan, be very careful about dismissing everything he says. I made a fool of myself over his German army claims and don't intend to do so again, at least without having carried out methodical and intrinsic research. It didn't take me long to see that indeed the Wehrmacht had secret bases in conquered Europe and had tanks and other things as well. Be careful. Learn from my mistakes! Please note that I only follow a few threads and therefore must remain largely ignorant of posts made on other threads.
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Post by Grant on Jan 11, 2020 6:00:57 GMT -5
Thanks for your reply mountain.
I should have said taking communion, not taking the bread and wine. I think most places including the 2x2s these days do not have real wine but grape juice or some other juice in place of wine. The 2x2s are the only place I ever had real wine, no other church I've attended use it. I knew of 2 alcoholics in our meeting.
Nathan was actually calling it the Eucharist which I think is a Catholic word anyway. Never heard it called that in meetings, they always called it the emblems.
By writing you I did not mean Nathan meant you specifically but people in general.
You'd only need to pass it around 3 times for those who do not believe in the Trinity. Only once for those who do as they believe the 3 are one
Because you found Nathan was right on one thing does not mean you should not use discernment on other things he says. I find much of what he says is completely wrong. He gets his stuff from the internet anyway.
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Post by Dan on Jan 11, 2020 7:29:07 GMT -5
That may be an exaggeration. I doubt God will torture you for eternity. God is righteous, kind, and Just, so a nice person like you won't be tortured, you can take solace in the fact that God will kill you quickly.
I'm good with that. But it's not what most here believe. If there isn't an eternity of torture or for some 'torment', they aren't happy. If your god is all merciful and all loving it would make more sense that he just annihilate those that don't make the cut. But the bible doesn't support that either. Those who are telling me I'm going to hell for eternity do have scripture to back up their words.
The eternal torture myth hangs on a single misunderstood verse (Rev 20:10), which is a reference to the devil and the false prophet, and is better interpreted as day & night until time ends. The torment is knowing their ultimate fate, a lost eternity. "What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?" (Matthew 8:29). Every other description of the Lake of Fire has it as the permanent eternal destruction of the body, soul, and spirit. The wages of sin is death, not life in ever-burning hell. Jesus said, "Fear him which is able to torture destroy both soul and body in hell". (Matthew 10:28). Those in Christ have eternal life, all others simply perish.
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