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Post by joanna on Jan 2, 2020 19:34:40 GMT -5
Happy New Decade to All I finally made a definitive break from the meetings over two decades ago after many years fighting an inward battle between conformity and skepticism. Stepping out and over to another belief, whether one which involved worshipping the same Christian god or another god, was never an option. My extrication from the meetings was due to an inability to accept the biblical messages as the "Truth". Other christian beliefs rely on a belief in the same book, and the fundamental extraordinary claims and once it is impossible to believe these claims, retaining one's faith is also impossible. Other faiths also rely on a belief in extraordinary, unevidenced claims, so crossing over to believe in another form of god is therefore impossible. It's 2020, and with a tap of our fingers, we can source answers to questions and we can determine the difference between evidenced-based knowledge and that which has no foundation other than having emanated from imaginations. What is/are the real motivator(s) for people remaining in the 2x2 group?
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Post by speak on Jan 2, 2020 20:18:34 GMT -5
Happy New Decade to All I finally made a definitive break from the meetings over two decades ago after many years fighting an inward battle between conformity and skepticism. Stepping out and over to another belief, whether one which involved worshipping the same Christian god or another god, was never an option. My extrication from the meetings was due to an inability to accept the biblical messages as the "Truth". Other christian beliefs rely on a belief in the same book, and the fundamental extraordinary claims and once it is impossible to believe these claims, retaining one's faith is also impossible. Other faiths also rely on a belief in extraordinary, unevidenced claims, so crossing over to believe in another form of god is therefore impossible. It's 2020, and with a tap of our fingers, we can source answers to questions and we can determine the difference between evidenced-based knowledge and that which has no foundation other than having emanated from imaginations. What is/are the real motivator(s) for people remaining in the 2x2 group? What is/are the real motivator(s) for people remaining in the 2x2 group? Love for our master.
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Post by joanna on Jan 2, 2020 20:37:57 GMT -5
speakHello Speak, What does loving your master involve and what are the real effects of doing so? What am i missing out on having left the meetings?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2020 21:03:18 GMT -5
What is/are the real motivator(s) for people remaining in the 2x2 group? Love of God, Jesus and the HS and the truth....
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Post by speak on Jan 2, 2020 22:02:18 GMT -5
speak Hello Speak, What does loving your master involve and what are the real effects of doing so? What am i missing out on having left the meetings? Means putting aside one's self, one's desires and allowing Him to guide you by what He desires. Real effects for me peace of mind and of heart. You would be missing out on what God has for you, I would say you would know what that is whether you believe it or not.
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Post by nathan on Jan 3, 2020 1:11:44 GMT -5
Happy New Decade to All I finally made a definitive break from the meetings over two decades ago after many years fighting an inward battle between conformity and skepticism. Stepping out and over to another belief, whether one which involved worshipping the same Christian god or another god, was never an option. My extrication from the meetings was due to an inability to accept the biblical messages as the "Truth". Other christian beliefs rely on a belief in the same book, and the fundamental extraordinary claims and once it is impossible to believe these claims, retaining one's faith is also impossible. Other faiths also rely on a belief in extraordinary, unevidenced claims, so crossing over to believe in another form of god is therefore impossible. It's 2020, and with a tap of our fingers, we can source answers to questions and we can determine the difference between evidenced-based knowledge and that which has no foundation other than having emanated from imaginations. What is/are the real motivator(s) for people remaining in the 2x2 group?
I cried out unto God to deliver me out of the pit of hell I was in and He heard my cried and rescued me from that HELL hole. God lead me to the workers and the 2x2s fellowship in 1978 so, I've promised to serve The Godhead forever. God/the Creator of all beings, Christ/Savior and Holy Spirit/my Teacher have been very kind, merciful to me for the last 40 years.
The Godhead have lead me through many AMAZING journey that beyond my imagination and wildest dream. I am looking forward to be with them and God's people in heaven, and more awesome experiences wait to experience after death.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2020 1:19:38 GMT -5
speakHello Speak, What does loving your master involve and what are the real effects of doing so? What am i missing out on having left the meetings? depends on who is in your field. Generally however I found that loving their master involves having lots of workers pictures, having an open home for meetings, being helpful at convention, making sure that the workers special diet and every need are catered to, and generally talking about the workers any chance that they are together.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 3, 2020 1:44:05 GMT -5
I begin to realize that the whole idea "putting aside one's self" and allowing a "god" to guide me was actually just abdicating my own responsibilities to do what I could to change life for the better for everyone around me..
I didn't see people in the 2x2's or most other churches doing anything about the inequalities among their fellow beings. Praying certainly wasn't accomplishing anything.
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Post by breakfree on Jan 3, 2020 1:54:56 GMT -5
Happy New Decade to All I finally made a definitive break from the meetings over two decades ago after many years fighting an inward battle between conformity and skepticism. Stepping out and over to another belief, whether one which involved worshipping the same Christian god or another god, was never an option. My extrication from the meetings was due to an inability to accept the biblical messages as the "Truth". Other christian beliefs rely on a belief in the same book, and the fundamental extraordinary claims and once it is impossible to believe these claims, retaining one's faith is also impossible. Other faiths also rely on a belief in extraordinary, unevidenced claims, so crossing over to believe in another form of god is therefore impossible. It's 2020, and with a tap of our fingers, we can source answers to questions and we can determine the difference between evidenced-based knowledge and that which has no foundation other than having emanated from imaginations. What is/are the real motivator(s) for people remaining in the 2x2 group? What is/are the real motivator(s) for people remaining in the 2x2 group? Love for our master.
I think one of the motivators is that people actually BELIEVE this group is the way to their salvation!
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Post by speak on Jan 3, 2020 3:03:55 GMT -5
What is/are the real motivator(s) for people remaining in the 2x2 group? Love for our master.
I think one of the motivators is that people actually BELIEVE this group is the way to their salvation! Another funny one with another funny statement.
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Post by speak on Jan 3, 2020 3:05:18 GMT -5
@speakhello Speak, What does loving your master involve and what are the real effects of doing so? What am i missing out on having left the meetings? depends on who is in your field. Generally however I found that loving their master involves having lots of workers pictures, having an open home for meetings, being helpful at convention, making sure that the workers special diet and every need are catered to, and generally talking about the workers any chance that they are together. What load of horse feathers.
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Post by nathan on Jan 3, 2020 9:57:14 GMT -5
What is/are the real motivator(s) for people remaining in the 2x2 group? Love for our master.
I think one of the motivators is that people actually BELIEVE this group is the way to their salvation! Yes, this is very true. If it wasn't I would NOT be a 2x2.
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Post by slowtosee on Jan 3, 2020 10:36:28 GMT -5
I think one of the motivators is that people actually BELIEVE this group is the way to their salvation! Yes, this is very true. If it wasn't I would NOT be a 2x2.Phew Yahoo. We’re mostly all in and 2x2 also I suppose , the majority here could also consider themselves 2x2 , as their general beliefs , would align much more closely than yours to the 2x2 , in regards Jesus coming from Venus , trinity , Stranges aliens etc etc No argument All good See you in Venus Alvin
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Post by Dan on Jan 3, 2020 11:06:51 GMT -5
What is/are the real motivator(s) for people remaining in the 2x2 group? I'd imagine the main motivation for anyone sticking with any church group is eternal life. People choose what they believe is right and reject the rest because they think they're wrong, or off center.
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36). Hmm, tough choice, eternal life or the wrath of God.. The only problem is that the verse says nothing about salvation being determined by the organization your affiliated with. I think people just stick with a group where they're fed the truth and that properly sticks with scripture, but salvation is ultimately an individual choice based on a personal relationship with Christ.. I just try to avoid the nonsense and stick with the fundamentals.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 3, 2020 11:39:14 GMT -5
What is/are the real motivator(s) for people remaining in the 2x2 group? I'd imagine the main motivation for anyone sticking with any church group is eternal life. People choose what they believe is right and reject the rest because they think they're wrong, or off center.
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36). Hmm, tough choice, eternal life or the wrath of God.. The only problem is that the verse says nothing about salvation being determined by the organization your affiliated with. I think people just stick with a group where they're fed the truth and that properly sticks with scripture, but salvation is ultimately an individual choice based on a personal relationship with Christ.. I just try to avoid the nonsense and stick with the fundamentals.
This is exactly how I feel. Anything that ends at the grave has nothing to do with my salvation. So that means it is only Jesus Christ is my Saviour, my treasure in heaven.
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Post by nathan on Jan 3, 2020 12:22:46 GMT -5
Yes, this is very true. If it wasn't I would NOT be a 2x2. Phew Yahoo. We’re mostly all in and 2x2 also I suppose , the majority here could also consider themselves 2x2 , as their general beliefs , would align much more closely than yours to the 2x2 , in regards Jesus coming from Venus , trinity , Stranges aliens etc etc No argument All good See you in Venus Alvin ** We humans are NOT alone in the universe, God in His infinite wisdom has created Millions intelligence beings for trillions of yrs in trillions galaxies before He/They created Adam and Eve/us 6000 yrs ago. Millions of these beings God created did NOT join in Satan rebellion to over thrown God, caused major wars in heavens (Rev. Chapter 12). They are here to help and protect us from Satan and h1/3 fallen angels and their evil human children/illuminati/Cabal. New heaven and earth will be an AMAZING place to live with millions SAVED beings/species from other trillions galaxies. That is one of the reasons Satan/Serpent and 1/3 of the fallen angels did NOT want Adam, Eve and their humans children to JOIN that great SAVED multitude no man could count.
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Post by snow on Jan 3, 2020 16:08:47 GMT -5
I think one of the motivators is that people actually BELIEVE this group is the way to their salvation! Another funny one with another funny statement. But is it? Why couldn't you love your master in any church? Why the 2x2 church? Do you really believe you couldn't love your master, be led by the holy spirit and have peace of mind in another Christian church? If not, why not? I really don't understand that part. When I left I left religion and later all belief in gods at all. I never even considered attending another Christian Church. I did study other religions and for a time I was drawn to Buddhism, but I honestly don't understand how a different Christian church would make it impossible to love God or be led by the holy spirit etc. At the same time I also don't understand how leaving the 2x2 church and going to another Christian church is really much different, in terms of spirituality anyway. Sure there are a different set of rules and some doctrine, but nothing that I can see that would effect being able to love god, be led by god and have the holy spirit guide?
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Post by snow on Jan 3, 2020 16:11:46 GMT -5
I think one of the motivators is that people actually BELIEVE this group is the way to their salvation! Yes, this is very true. If it wasn't I would NOT be a 2x2.That's how I saw it for my parents also. Thank you for being honest Nathan. My parents definitely felt that leaving the 2x2 church was sealing their doom. Anyone that went to another Christian church I remember my parents stating how sad they no longer walked with God or other such sentiments. It was one of the biggest problems I had with the whole thing. My relatives were all of other christian churches and so they were not saved and that really bothered me when I was still professing and believed. My aunts, uncles and grandfather were all wonderful people but because they weren't professing they weren't saved and were going to hell. Not a nice feeling when you're a kid and love your relatives.
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Post by nathan on Jan 3, 2020 17:09:26 GMT -5
Yes, this is very true. If it wasn't I would NOT be a 2x2. That's how I saw it for my parents also. Thank you for being honest Nathan. My parents definitely felt that leaving the 2x2 church was sealing their doom. Anyone that went to another Christian church I remember my parents stating how sad they no longer walked with God or other such sentiments. It was one of the biggest problems I had with the whole thing. My relatives were all of other christian churches and so they were not saved and that really bothered me when I was still professing and believed. My aunts, uncles and grandfather were all wonderful people but because they weren't professing they weren't saved and were going to hell. Not a nice feeling when you're a kid and love your relatives. *** Jesus made it very clear in Matthew 7:21-28 NOT everyone preaches in my name, casting out devils in my name and done many wonderful works will enter heaven!
Why, NOT? Because God, Jesus and Holy Spirit did NOT sent them as their apostles/workers into the world. They were sent or deceived by Satan as sowers/preachers to sow TARES/false gospel and NOT the wheat/true gospel in the world (Matthew 13).
People don't see to understand it, Jesus warned them in the gospels through the parables.
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Post by joanna on Jan 3, 2020 19:51:16 GMT -5
speak . How does the God you believe in guide you Speak ? (i do appreciate you answering my questions). In all the time i was in the 2x2 grp I Never Once heard the voice of god. Can you prove to me that you have heard his voice Speak? This question applies to all other believers whether meeting folk or not. Why is it that the knowledge of the Christian god requires human intervention? Infinite numbers of people across the history of the world do not know the God of Abraham because they have never had a Christian bible nor been preached to about its' content. Doesn't that make all Christians suspicious about the existence of this god? Why is he non-existent until people hear other people talk of him or they read of him? And doesn't this absence of god fit with the lack of his intervention in times of disaster? I was a child who tried to do the right thing, i prayed, obeyed my parents, attended meetings and missions, did not have 'worldly friends" except during school hours; and i recall desperately asking for god to speak with me. Yet i never once heard any external voice. I heard reiterations of biblical intonations and the words of preachers inside my own head and i tried to believe that was god speaking to me. But i could not Honestly maintain that deception. How can you be certain that the voice you hear is not sourced from within your own mind? Communication occurs on many different technical levels and these have surpassed previous generations predictions yet still there is no determination on the methodology used by faith-based believers in their alleged communication with god. For something to be real it has to be replicated and proven yet this is not the case with communication with god.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2020 21:09:24 GMT -5
speak . How does the God you believe in guide you Speak ? (i do appreciate you answering my questions). In all the time i was in the 2x2 grp I Never Once heard the voice of god. Can you prove to me that you have heard his voice Speak? This question applies to all other believers whether meeting folk or not. Why is it that the knowledge of the Christian god requires human intervention? Infinite numbers of people across the history of the world do not know the God of Abraham because they have never had a Christian bible nor been preached to about its' content. Doesn't that make all Christians suspicious about the existence of this god? Why is he non-existent until people hear other people talk of him or they read of him? And doesn't this absence of god fit with the lack of his intervention in times of disaster? I was a child who tried to do the right thing, i prayed, obeyed my parents, attended meetings and missions, did not have 'worldly friends" except during school hours; and i recall desperately asking for god to speak with me. Yet i never once heard any external voice. I heard reiterations of biblical intonations and the words of preachers inside my own head and i tried to believe that was god speaking to me. But i could not Honestly maintain that deception. How can you be certain that the voice you hear is not sourced from within your own mind? Communication occurs on many different technical levels and these have surpassed previous generations predictions yet still there is no determination on the methodology used by faith-based believers in their alleged communication with god. For something to be real it has to be replicated and proven yet this is not the case with communication with god. professing.proboards.com/thread/29189/why-won-give-sign-seeker
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Post by joanna on Jan 4, 2020 0:42:03 GMT -5
Thank you for sharing that you tube video @wally
The main points i obtained from watching it were the words from Frank Turek . " it could be" "we don't know" "i'm just speculating".
Frank Turek's ignorance revealed in this video absolutely validates my previous comments.
Frank is having to guess or speculate because god is not speaking to him either. Surely you can discern that the friend referred to by the woman asking the question is no different to Frank Turek except for that friend's honesty that ' they have had no confirmation from god'. Frank Turek clearly has not had confirmation from god either for if he had, he would not be guessing and 'stabbing in the dark' with absurd, dishonest, non-explanations.
As the questioner stated "we just have to believe what we have from him which is his word". God only exists between the pages of an ancient book.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2020 0:50:08 GMT -5
Thank you for sharing that you tube video @wally The main points i obtained from watching it were the words from Frank Turek . " it could be" "we don't know" "i'm just speculating". Frank Turek's ignorance revealed in this video absolutely validates my previous comments. Frank is having to guess or speculate because god is not speaking to him either. Surely you can discern that the friend referred to by the woman asking the question is no different to Frank Turek except for that friend's honesty that ' they have had no confirmation from god'. Frank Turek clearly has not had confirmation from god either for if he had, he would not be guessing and 'stabbing in the dark' with absurd, dishonest, non-explanations. As the questioner stated "we just have to believe what we have from him which is his word". God only exists between the pages of an ancient book. oh well i tried...
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Post by joanna on Jan 4, 2020 1:04:26 GMT -5
you did @wally .
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Post by Dennis J on Jan 4, 2020 3:06:13 GMT -5
Joanna, it has been a good number of years that I have read your posts all without comment despite frequent disagreement. Why? Because you are entitled to your belief(s) just as I. Indeed, yours could be as sound or even sounder than my own.
This recent post has caused me to explore my own mind(set.) It comes to my thought process just how weak that process is of believing 2&2ers, many of whom just unthinkingly believe what their workers allow them to believe.
It, therefore, is not unthinkable for me then to accept that most, if not all of those do not believe I have the right to any part or gift of eternal life. That thought process of theirs, as proven by any lack of spiritual support for this position I am found in, reveals to me how sad their spiritual condition actually is. I can do nothing about it.
Like you, and many others, I have prayed and prayed to my God about this conflict in thought between us. I do believe God changes things. He has changed me to consider all humanity as a brother or sister unless they have proclaimed that concept untrue in one way or another. Now it is just up to me to wait, wait, and wait some more.
That mindset is not from me, where has it come from? It is from somewhere. It also explains to me why, despite differences of opinion, i feel a oneness with so many here on the TMB. I want no surprises when my time comes to stand before His throne upon a sea of glass clear as crystal!
Smile! So, here is a public confession, only my image of my “perfect” Savior can stand true then.
May I think of you as one of my friends?
Dennis Jacobsen
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Post by joanna on Jan 4, 2020 19:23:42 GMT -5
Dennis J . May I think of you as one of my friends? you absolutely may Dennis I agree that 'the process of belief of the 2x2 group is weak' is one way of referring to that specific belief system. When i read comments such as your one above, i am torn between writing my response or keeping quiet. The motivation for writing a response ( and not keeping quiet) lies with both my confusion over the dichotomy between the 2x2 belief and another Christian belief which is applied by you and others who have left the 2x2 grp, but have retained a belief in the fundamental Christian message as presented by the bible and my perception that this dichotomy between the 2x2 belief and the one you now hold involves an unjust approach. It is not that i am focused on defending the 2x2 grp but that applying an equitable and rational critique actually negates the dichotomy. In short, i cannot understand on what basis you have determined that the 'process of the 2x2 belief is weak' (as previously mentioned - i agree with this) and the belief that you now hold is not weak? What criteria do you identify as providing a stronger basis for your present belief that was absent when in the 2x2's? Thank you.
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Post by speak on Jan 4, 2020 20:43:16 GMT -5
speak . How does the God you believe in guide you Speak ? (i do appreciate you answering my questions). In all the time i was in the 2x2 grp I Never Once heard the voice of god. Can you prove to me that you have heard his voice Speak? This question applies to all other believers whether meeting folk or not. Why is it that the knowledge of the Christian god requires human intervention? Infinite numbers of people across the history of the world do not know the God of Abraham because they have never had a Christian bible nor been preached to about its' content. Doesn't that make all Christians suspicious about the existence of this god? Why is he non-existent until people hear other people talk of him or they read of him? And doesn't this absence of god fit with the lack of his intervention in times of disaster? I was a child who tried to do the right thing, i prayed, obeyed my parents, attended meetings and missions, did not have 'worldly friends" except during school hours; and i recall desperately asking for god to speak with me. Yet i never once heard any external voice. I heard reiterations of biblical intonations and the words of preachers inside my own head and i tried to believe that was god speaking to me. But i could not Honestly maintain that deception. How can you be certain that the voice you hear is not sourced from within your own mind? Communication occurs on many different technical levels and these have surpassed previous generations predictions yet still there is no determination on the methodology used by faith-based believers in their alleged communication with god. For something to be real it has to be replicated and proven yet this is not the case with communication with god. The other night I was wondering about a certain subject and a voice sounded in my head read a certain chapter, I have never read that chapter before and would have never thought to read it. I found the answer to my wonderings. Also in dreams there come answers to things I have wondered about a good time ago. In reading, in meditating, in prayer and even in something someone has said. I am sorry that you have never heard the word of because you have such a wonderful glorious feeling. No I cannot prove to you that i have heard his voice within the proof you seek it is a thing that has to be experienced other than say I have. Many have believed the God of Abraham who have had no scripture who have been drawn by Him even the ones before Abraham, even the Kings in Daniels time. It doesn't require human intervention, when God has spoken to me it hasn't always been in preaching or from human hand but directly from Him. He certainly wasn't non-existent to me when I wasn't listening or attending, I was just like any other person who wasn't following Jesus. It is told in the Bible of times of disaster we have plenty of warning of what to expect and to be ready when our time comes. I cannot answer for what happened to you but there have been many who have waited for years but have been faithful in those times, take Cornelius Acts 10-11 to see such happened to him but he remained faithful to his belief. If it was in my own mind there wouldn't be any thought of God I can assure you of that. Gods thoughts and our thoughts are poles apart, they cannot be compared in way shape or form so your real, my real and Gods real are so completely different. Hope this is a help to you.
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Post by benar on Jan 5, 2020 3:31:16 GMT -5
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36). Hmm, tough choice, eternal life or the wrath of God... [/div]
[/quote] Not really a choice, is it? If the person offering you salvation is the one threatening the torture, it’s not salvation, it’s extortion.Would you accept this sort of ultimatum from anyone else, Dan?
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