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Post by Dan on Jan 11, 2020 9:06:03 GMT -5
If a serial killer on death row professes his faith in Jesus Christ, will God be just or merciful when the killer arrives at the Pearly Gates? Remember, if one is being merciful, one is not being just.
It doesn't seem logical that God could be just and merciful simultaneously. And its true that forgiving a murderer is not rendering justice to his victim. But one must separate spiritual mercy from judgement on earth. God does not advocate suspending judgement, Deuteronomy 19 clearly states that the punishment for a murderer is death, that's the eye for an eye justice. The malefactor being crucified with Christ said, "We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong" (Luke 23:41). Note that Jesus didn't argue with him or say 'No, its unjust and you don't deserve this'. Likewise, a killer on death row needs to pay with his life, that's justice. But Jesus also extended the thief spiritual mercy, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise" (vs 43). Spiritual mercy is extended to any truly repentant soul (by grace through faith). Remember that David arranged the death of Uriah, God doesn't kill His anointed, but a life was required. The beauty of Christianity is that we are justified in Christ, but that doesn't exempt us from paying the dues for our transgressions on earth. jmo
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Post by Dennis J on Jan 11, 2020 11:43:07 GMT -5
Scripture teaches me the aspects of my God. Among them are both Grace and Mercy. Now Mercy is given according to this: those who repent and confess their sin shall find Mercy. Grace however is different. My Lord God shows and gives that without a formula. He bestows Grace upon those He will for reasons beyond my pay grade!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 11, 2020 11:50:55 GMT -5
Scripture teaches me the aspects of my God. Among them are both Grace and Mercy. Now Mercy is given according to this: those who repent and confess their sin shall find Mercy. Grace however is different. My Lord God shows and gives that without a formula. He bestows Grace upon those He will for reasons beyond my pay grade!
Reminded me where it says that before the twins were born, God said he loved Jacob but hated Esau.
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Post by Dennis J on Jan 11, 2020 13:11:06 GMT -5
Once I did a very complete bit of study. I was amazed to discover there were decades of time between God revealing He loved Jacob and that He hated Esau. Just another example of a previous post comment. Those who do not know linguistics simply frequently err...
You know, like THREE wise men in the stable? They came to the Lord’s family bearing three gifts, and found them in a house. Decades have passed now, yet one still hears and sees manger scenes quite adamant there were three wise men in the stable where He was born.
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Post by snow on Jan 11, 2020 13:21:19 GMT -5
The thing is if I don't love and obey God he's going to have me tortured for eternity. If I don't love and obey my spouse we get a divorce and remain friends. At least that's been my experience. Same here. My second husband and I host my ex for all the holiday dinners and cookouts. Staying friends benefits all parties, especially the children. We were at my ex's wedding and I held his new son for them while they said their vows. It doesn't need to be hostile. It takes some work and letting go of all the things that didn't work, but it's so worth it because the kids didn't have to take sides. It's not their fault when parents divorce so they shouldn't have to go through anymore than they already have to when parents no longer live together. That's my belief and to his credit my ex also believed that.
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Post by snow on Jan 11, 2020 13:22:22 GMT -5
I'm good with that. But it's not what most here believe. If there isn't an eternity of torture or for some 'torment', they aren't happy. If your god is all merciful and all loving it would make more sense that he just annihilate those that don't make the cut. But the bible doesn't support that either. Those who are telling me I'm going to hell for eternity do have scripture to back up their words. What I don't get is that they don't see it for what it is, a scare tactic. Reminds me of moms who say, "Wait till your father gets home!" LOL exactly.
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Post by snow on Jan 11, 2020 13:25:51 GMT -5
I see, but mercy is the suspension of justice. If one is merciful, one is not just. i wouldn't worry about that cause on judgment day everyone will get what they deserve(justice) and further more mercy to a degree is part of the new covenant and not the law of the old covenant... I would not say that everyone gets what they deserve. I am going to hell to be tormented/tortured for the rest of eternity when I die. That's what your religion believes. Yet what have I done to deserve that other than question and come up with a different answer than Christians? I haven't killed, I did steal some candy once in a store when I was two, but I gave it back and I apologized to the store manager, I have tried to be the best I can be. Sure I'm not perfect, I'm human, but I do try to do no harm. Yet I am 'getting what I deserve'?
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Post by snow on Jan 11, 2020 13:37:58 GMT -5
I'm good with that. But it's not what most here believe. If there isn't an eternity of torture or for some 'torment', they aren't happy. If your god is all merciful and all loving it would make more sense that he just annihilate those that don't make the cut. But the bible doesn't support that either. Those who are telling me I'm going to hell for eternity do have scripture to back up their words. The eternal torture myth hangs on a single misunderstood verse (Rev 20:10), which is a reference to the devil and the false prophet, and is better interpreted as day & night until time ends. The torment is knowing their ultimate fate, a lost eternity. "What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?" (Matthew 8:29). Every other description of the Lake of Fire has it as the permanent eternal destruction of the body, soul, and spirit. The wages of sin is death, not life in ever-burning hell. Jesus said, "Fear him which is able to torture destroy both soul and body in hell". (Matthew 10:28). Those in Christ have eternal life, all others simply perish.
Interesting. Thanks. It's too bad most like to believe that there is eternal torment if they don't believe. But I guess they feel there has to be some reward for them sacrificing 'all' in this life. If we non believers or believers in other Gods got to be in heaven without 'doing anything', that wouldn't be handled well I'm sure by those that thought it required sacrifice and belief in their lifetimes.
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Post by Dennis J on Jan 11, 2020 13:39:15 GMT -5
You are not the only one so judged by current 2&2 preacher folks, snow. Their judgment of me is made even stronger because I was a number of years in that “work,” in a number of fields in several States and Countries. If I am to dwell eternally outside my Lord God’s presence by their judgment, it will merely be an extension of what I have been sentenced to by them in this life.
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Post by snow on Jan 11, 2020 15:47:38 GMT -5
You are not the only one so judged by current 2&2 preacher folks, snow. Their judgment of me is made even stronger because I was a number of years in that “work,” in a number of fields in several States and Countries. If I am to dwell eternally outside my Lord God’s presence by their judgment, it will merely be an extension of what I have been sentenced to by them in this life. I wish you hadn't had such a hard time with the 2x2's. I also hope that you don't believe that leaving them doomed you. I don't worry about hell or heaven because I don't believe we go to either place. But someone like you who still believes I would hope you wouldn't believe what the 2x2's believe about those who leave their church.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2020 16:01:44 GMT -5
i wouldn't worry about that cause on judgment day everyone will get what they deserve(justice) and further more mercy to a degree is part of the new covenant and not the law of the old covenant... I would not say that everyone gets what they deserve. I am going to hell to be tormented/tortured for the rest of eternity when I die. That's what your religion believes. Yet what have I done to deserve that other than question and come up with a different answer than Christians? I haven't killed, I did steal some candy once in a store when I was two, but I gave it back and I apologized to the store manager, I have tried to be the best I can be. Sure I'm not perfect, I'm human, but I do try to do no harm. Yet I am 'getting what I deserve'? you've rejected Christ and all that he did for YOU....If i were God that would totally PMO....just sayin'
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Post by snow on Jan 11, 2020 17:47:35 GMT -5
I would not say that everyone gets what they deserve. I am going to hell to be tormented/tortured for the rest of eternity when I die. That's what your religion believes. Yet what have I done to deserve that other than question and come up with a different answer than Christians? I haven't killed, I did steal some candy once in a store when I was two, but I gave it back and I apologized to the store manager, I have tried to be the best I can be. Sure I'm not perfect, I'm human, but I do try to do no harm. Yet I am 'getting what I deserve'? you've rejected Christ and all that he did for YOU....If i were God that would totally PMO....just sayin' Well that's why you are the one believing on faith and I'm not. STR has said I was never given the gift so how is it my fault? I once believed with all my heart, but she says I didn't have the gift of faith from God so I wasn't protected from becoming an atheist. So he gets PMO with me because he never gifted me with faith? I believed. He didn't do his side of it.
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Post by Annan on Jan 11, 2020 17:58:44 GMT -5
I love <--- sarcasm hearing all the stories about how badly people who left the faith were treated. What an ugly group of people. But I get it. They lost their control over a person and they are bitter.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2020 19:29:42 GMT -5
you've rejected Christ and all that he did for YOU....If i were God that would totally PMO....just sayin' Well that's why you are the one believing on faith and I'm not. STR has said I was never given the gift so how is it my fault? I once believed with all my heart, but she says I didn't have the gift of faith from God so I wasn't protected from becoming an atheist. So he gets PMO with me because he never gifted me with faith? I believed. He didn't do his side of it. i wouldn't believe that predestination crap it will mess with your mind...
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 11, 2020 20:37:56 GMT -5
Once I did a very complete bit of study. I was amazed to discover there were decades of time between God revealing He loved Jacob and that He hated Esau. Just another example of a previous post comment. Those who do not know linguistics simply frequently err...
You know, like THREE wise men in the stable? They came to the Lord’s family bearing three gifts, and found them in a house. Decades have passed now, yet one still hears and sees manger scenes quite adamant there were three wise men in the stable where He was born.
Yes, it was Paul who said it!
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Post by nathan on Jan 11, 2020 20:56:11 GMT -5
Well that's why you are the one believing on faith and I'm not. STR has said I was never given the gift so how is it my fault? I once believed with all my heart, but she says I didn't have the gift of faith from God so I wasn't protected from becoming an atheist. So he gets PMO with me because he never gifted me with faith? I believed. He didn't do his side of it. i wouldn't believe that predestination crap it will mess with your mind... *** STR, Baptist predestination MESS up lives and get ex2x2 atheists and back slide ex-Christians Angry as Heck. They were NEVER SAVED in the first place or to begin with. God's predestination is VERY simple. God has predestined ALL to be SAVED by their own free will or choice. God has predestined A BIG spiritual family on earth and in heaven. Everyone must be BORN again but many by choice DO NOT want to be there with God. God does NOT want to force His love on any human being to live with Him forever. Each person must want to be in heaven by their own free will or choice.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 12, 2020 0:00:39 GMT -5
I love <--- sarcasm hearing all the stories about how badly people who left the faith were treated. What an ugly group of people. But I get it. They lost their control over a person and they are bitter. Yes, I think control is a big part of it but I still think that people also just can't let themselves believe that there is any possibility that we could be right.
It is a lot like when they can get someone to convert to their belief that makes them feel as if their own belief is being verified. That give people a POSITIVE feeling.
But when someone leaves it is the opposite feeling, NEGATIVE feeling. And no one likes NEGATIVE feelings.
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Post by Dan on Jan 12, 2020 1:10:45 GMT -5
I love <--- sarcasm hearing all the stories about how badly people who left the faith were treated. What an ugly group of people. But I get it. They lost their control over a person and they are bitter. Yes, I think control is a big part of it but I still think that people also just can't let themselves believe that there is any possibility that we could be right.
It is a lot like when they can get someone to convert to their belief that makes them feel as if their own belief is being verified. That give people a POSITIVE feeling.
But when someone leaves it is the opposite feeling, NEGATIVE feeling. And no one likes NEGATIVE feelings.
I personally was never treated badly, and I don't think its about control. Different churches just interpret things differently, if you don't agree, dislike, or can't accept it, I don't think they have a problem with someone tipping out the door, in fact, I think they would prefer it. The Workers believe they are following the correct Path, so of course they rejoice when another soul finds the Truth and they are likewise saddened when someone rejects it. "There is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth" (Luke 15:10). And of course, any group that believes they are true to Christ, aren't going to consider that a nonbeliever could be right. jmo
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 12, 2020 1:43:43 GMT -5
Yes, I think control is a big part of it but I still think that people also just can't let themselves believe that there is any possibility that we could be right.
It is a lot like when they can get someone to convert to their belief that makes them feel as if their own belief is being verified. That give people a POSITIVE feeling.
But when someone leaves it is the opposite feeling, NEGATIVE feeling. And no one likes NEGATIVE feelings. I personally was never treated badly, and I don't think its about control. Different churches just interpret things differently, if you don't agree, dislike, or can't accept it, I don't think they have a problem with someone tipping out the door, in fact, I think they would prefer it. The Workers believe they are following the correct Path, so of course they rejoice when another soul finds the Truth and they are likewise saddened when someone rejects it. "There is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth" (Luke 15:10). And of course, any group that believes they are true to Christ, aren't going to consider that a nonbeliever could be right. jmo
One question, Dan. Were you raised within the TRUTH or WAY as we called it in my day?
(I still have trouble using the word '2x2' because it seems disrespectable to call it that -but I do go ahead & use that term because it is so easily understood by all of us)
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Post by Dan on Jan 12, 2020 11:10:31 GMT -5
I personally was never treated badly, and I don't think its about control. Different churches just interpret things differently, if you don't agree, dislike, or can't accept it, I don't think they have a problem with someone tipping out the door, in fact, I think they would prefer it. The Workers believe they are following the correct Path, so of course they rejoice when another soul finds the Truth and they are likewise saddened when someone rejects it. "There is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth" (Luke 15:10). And of course, any group that believes they are true to Christ, aren't going to consider that a nonbeliever could be right. jmo
One question, Dan. Were you raised within the TRUTH or WAY as we called it in my day?
(I still have trouble using the word '2x2' because it seems disrespectable to call it that -but I do go ahead & use that term because it is so easily understood by all of us)
No, I wasn't born into it. My parents started going to gospel mtgs around 1972, I professed when I was 15 years old and was baptized about a year later in Des Moines, Iowa. I pretty much stopped going to mtgs at age 19 after leaving home. I hit a few mtgs and 2 conventions since then, but haven't been for years now. My parents had Sunday Union meeting in their home in Florida, but they also stopped going (fell away) in the 90's. I still have 2 professing sisters, one went in the Work for 15 years but is now married, and the other is still in the work. I have one other sister who professed for about a year. So I guess in a sense, I was semi-raised in the Truth.
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Post by snow on Jan 12, 2020 14:43:47 GMT -5
Well that's why you are the one believing on faith and I'm not. STR has said I was never given the gift so how is it my fault? I once believed with all my heart, but she says I didn't have the gift of faith from God so I wasn't protected from becoming an atheist. So he gets PMO with me because he never gifted me with faith? I believed. He didn't do his side of it. i wouldn't believe that predestination crap it will mess with your mind... Well that's the good thing. I don't believe in it or anything else in that category. I am just responding based on what her beliefs are and others on here. I do recognize that you don't all agree on the subject.
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Post by Dennis J on Jan 12, 2020 15:32:42 GMT -5
DMG: it is for the same reason you just mentioned that I try to practice using “2&2’s or 2&2 preacher/worker group,” in identifying them now. They are 2&2 not 2x2, which I also once found objectionable. If possible, I would press for each of us, once part of that group, would use 2&2 in reference to it.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 12, 2020 16:43:12 GMT -5
DMG: it is for the same reason you just mentioned that I try to practice using “2&2’s or 2&2 preacher/worker group,” in identifying them now. They are 2&2 not 2x2, which I also once found objectionable. If possible, I would press for each of us, once part of that group, would use 2&2 in reference to it. Quote by Asmita Saxon’s: “When someone puts an ‘x’ between two independent entities, it means that the 2 entities are collaborating for a specific purpose. Most probably , it signifies ‘and’ and it can also MEAN ‘BY’. “
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Post by Dennis J on Jan 12, 2020 17:29:26 GMT -5
Yeah, I know. The Lord sent His own two and two, not two BY two for what that is worth...hence my assertion... None can change what is, and eventually everything seems to be accepted by practice. I know that, too. My age is showing itself again.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 12, 2020 19:26:06 GMT -5
Yeah, I know. The Lord sent His own two and two, not two BY two for what that is worth...hence my assertion... None can change what is, and eventually everything seems to be accepted by practice. I know that, too. My age is showing itself again.
I just discovered that how it is phrased depends on the translation issue. ASB says two by two, NIV says two by two but the KJV says two and two. Strange that!
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Post by benar on Jan 12, 2020 19:48:51 GMT -5
Yeah, I know. The Lord sent His own two and two, not two BY two for what that is worth...hence my assertion... None can change what is, and eventually everything seems to be accepted by practice. I know that, too. My age is showing itself again.
I just discovered that how it is phrased depends on the translation issue. ASB says two by two, NIV says two by two but the KJV says two and two. Strange that! For the unchanging word of God, it sure is strange.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 12, 2020 19:58:27 GMT -5
I just discovered that how it is phrased depends on the translation issue. ASB says two by two, NIV says two by two but the KJV says two and two. Strange that! For the unchanging word of God, it sure is strange. From a linguistic point of view the difference is moot. It's a matter of customary expression at the time and place of the speech/translation. Today and in places I have lived, English speaking people would be much more inclined to say two by two rather than two and two.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 12, 2020 23:06:02 GMT -5
One question, Dan. Were you raised within the TRUTH or WAY as we called it in my day?
(I still have trouble using the word '2x2' because it seems disrespectable to call it that -but I do go ahead & use that term because it is so easily understood by all of us) No, I wasn't born into it. My parents started going to gospel mtgs around 1972, I professed when I was 15 years old and was baptized about a year later in Des Moines, Iowa. I pretty much stopped going to mtgs at age 19 after leaving home. I hit a few mtgs and 2 conventions since then, but haven't been for years now. My parents had Sunday Union meeting in their home in Florida, but they also stopped going (fell away) in the 90's. I still have 2 professing sisters, one went in the Work for 15 years but is now married, and the other is still in the work. I have one other sister who professed for about a year. So I guess in a sense, I was semi-raised in the Truth.
Thanks Dan.
By 1972, - my three child had all been born. I was still going to meetings.
So there is quite few years between us.
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