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Post by nathan on Sept 6, 2018 16:46:33 GMT -5
** I totally agree with you on this. I just hope and pray the current workers and friends understand that way also. I believe they are coming around eventually, once the realized the EARLY workers believed in the Deity of Christ, Jesus is both God and man. It was Christ the Eternal God/Son begotten in the person of Jesus the man on earth 2000 yrs ago to die for our sins on Calvary Cross. I hope and pray that they come around to the Truth as well - I fear that they have left it behind after believing it in the beginning. Pray that the Holy Spirit reveals the Eternal Son to them. The workers and the friends KNOW, BELIEVE, PREACH, and TEACH Jesus is the Son of God.... what they don't understand is the Son of God means Jesus is part of the Godhead= Father, Christ, and Holy Spirit.Jesus, of the New Testament, and "Yahweh/God/Christ" of the Old Testament are one and the same BEING: Yahweh is The Creator: Isa.40:28 (Yahweh) Jesus is The Creator: John 1:3 (Jesus) Yahweh is the First and Last: Isa. 41:4 44:6 (Yahweh) Jesus is the First and Last: Rev. 1:17 2:8 & 22:13 (Jesus)
Yahweh is The Lord of Lords: Deut. 10:17 (Yahweh) Jesus is the Lord of Lords: 1 Tim. 6:15 (Jesus)
Yahweh is the Savior: Isa 45:21 43:11 (Yahweh) Jesus is the Saviour. John 4:42 (Jesus)
Yahweh is The Light: Psa. 27:1, Isa. 60: 19-20 (Yahweh) Jesus is The Light. John 1:1-9 & 8:12 (Jesus)
Yahweh is The Shepherd: Ps. 23:1 (Yahweh) Jesus is The Shepherd: John 10:11 (Jesus)
Yahweh is The Glory of God: Isa. 42:8 48:11 (Yahweh) Jesus is The Glory of God: John 17:1, 5 (Jesus)
Yahweh is The Redeemer: Isa. 41:14, Jer. 50:34, (Yahweh) Jesus is The Redeemer: Rev. 5:9 (Jesus)
Yahweh is The Rock: Ps. 18:2 (Yahweh) Jesus is The Rock: 1 Cor. 10:4 (Jesus) Yahweh is the Creator of angels: Psa. 148:5 (Yahweh) Jesus is the Creator of Angels: Col. 1:16 (Jesus)
Yahweh is The I AM: Ex. 3:14 (Yahweh) Jesus is The I AM: John 8:58 18:5,6 (Jesus)
Yahweh is The Bridegroom: Isa. 62:5 Hosea 2:16 (Yahweh) Jesus is The Bridegroom: Rev. 21: 2, Matt. 25:11 (Jesus)
Yahweh is The Judge: Joel 3:12 (Yahweh) Jesus is The Judge: John 5:27 Matt. 25:31-46 (Jesus)
Yahweh is The Forgiver of sins: Jere. 31:34 (Yahweh) Jesus is The Forgiver of sins: Mark 2:7, 10 (Jesus)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2018 17:54:42 GMT -5
Ross and Nathan, I thank you both sincerely for engaging me in these discussions, particularly the civil and respectful way you have both shown. This whole discussion is now at a level where I cannot afford the time to devote to it. I have read your most recent posts and obviously I have my counter understanding, but to address each and every point at this stage is really beyond my ablity to do so, due to other more pressing commitments.
I am willing to continue these discussons on a one to one basis, reference by reference, either by PM or email as time allows, in a climate of mutual respect, which you have both shown, but without the distractive behaviour of some others. This offer is also extended to any other person who is genuinely interested. I know there are at least a few of you. The matter can be kept private.
After an absence of a year or more, I only popped back to see how some were doing, especially my good friend Virgs, and to see what Bert was up to, but as usual I got drawn into some debates which I hoped would be short-lived, but the nature of the beast is in the length of its arms and legs.
In the meantime, may the love of God be with you all and once again Ross, all the best with your mission in Africa.
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janj
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Post by janj on Sept 6, 2018 18:11:32 GMT -5
** I totally agree with you on this. I just hope and pray the current workers and friends understand that way also. I believe they are coming around eventually, once the realized the EARLY workers believed in the Deity of Christ, Jesus is both God and man. It was Christ the Eternal God/Son begotten in the person of Jesus the man on earth 2000 yrs ago to die for our sins on Calvary Cross. I hope and pray that they come around to the Truth as well - I fear that they have left it behind after believing it in the beginning. Pray that the Holy Spirit reveals the Eternal Son to them. FWIW I think that the wording is often what confuses the issue. I may ne wrong but I think many people believe and acknowledge that Jesus is devine and part of the Godhead but when you say he is God ('God the son')- this is where they disagree.
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Post by nathan on Sept 6, 2018 18:25:49 GMT -5
I hope and pray that they come around to the Truth as well - I fear that they have left it behind after believing it in the beginning. Pray that the Holy Spirit reveals the Eternal Son to them. FWIW I think that the wording is often what confuses the issue. I may ne wrong but I think many people believe and acknowledge that Jesus is divine and part of the Godhead but when you say he is God ('God the son')- this is where they disagree. What do you mean by saying Jesus is Divine? What does it means when you say Jesus is part of the Godhead? Can you explain these two questions to us. Thanks.
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janj
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Post by janj on Sept 8, 2018 13:00:58 GMT -5
FWIW I think that the wording is often what confuses the issue. I may ne wrong but I think many people believe and acknowledge that Jesus is divine and part of the Godhead but when you say he is God ('God the son')- this is where they disagree. What do you mean by saying Jesus is Divine? What does it means when you say Jesus is part of the Godhead? Can you explain these two questions to us. Thanks.Firstly Nathan I must state I am not interested in entering into a great lengthy discussion with you over this. Firstly I don't have time and secondly it's all been said before. All I was pointing out was, I think often people are arguing from the same side but the wording confuses.(eg God the Son) Personally I think the Father, the Son and the Spirit all share the same nature but are three separate personalities. The Son came to earth in human form to live as a man but he was divine. (meaning of divine -you look it up in the dictionary)
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Post by matisse on Sept 8, 2018 14:13:02 GMT -5
In His day and time, people heard what THE LORD was teaching and took up stones to kill Him. He asked them basically, “why are you intending to kill Me, for what work have I done that you believe me worthy of death?”
How did they respond to Him? Basically they responded, “NOT for your works, dummy, but because Ypu equate yourself equal to God.” They understood what He was saying, even if people today cannot. To them, THAT was blasphemy, and worthy of death.
Today, people unwilling for His words just as gladly attempt to put people like me to death also, wanting to silence us. When confronted, such accusations parallel those of Yahu’shuah’s accusers then. How did He silence them, by arguing with them? Absolutely not! He merely walked through them, and out of their sight and attack mode. Should I do any differently? I think not. I can imagine someone around here suggesting that you are a Drama Queen. I cannot imagine anyone around here "gladly attempting" to put a person like you to death - for any reason.
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Post by nathan on Sept 8, 2018 14:37:06 GMT -5
What do you mean by saying Jesus is Divine? What does it means when you say Jesus is part of the Godhead? Can you explain these two questions to us. Thanks. Firstly Nathan I must state I am not interested in entering into a great lengthy discussion with you over this. Firstly I don't have time and secondly it's all been said before. All I was pointing out was, I think often people are arguing from the same side but the wording confuses.(eg God the Son) Personally I think the Father, the Son and the Spirit all share the same nature but are three separate personalities. The Son came to earth in human form to live as a man but he was divine. (meaning of divine -you look it up in the dictionary) ** I agree with what you wrote. I agree with the early church fathers, who came up with the Word Trinity to describe the Godhead= Father, Christ and the Holy Spirit in the Bible. Three separate BEINGS but ONE Godhead. The early 2x2 workers believed and taught the Trinity, the Deity of Christ, the Godhead is Father, Christ and Holy Spirit when they brought the gospel to America and other countries.
There are false and incorrect teachings on the Trinity, the deity of Christ, Jesus is NOT God are out there. Therefore, we must know how to explain the words of God correctly because it has caused much bloodshed over it for hundreds of year.
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Post by Dennis J on Sept 8, 2018 20:53:33 GMT -5
In His day and time, people heard what THE LORD was teaching and took up stones to kill Him. He asked them basically, “why are you intending to kill Me, for what work have I done that you believe me worthy of death?”
How did they respond to Him? Basically they responded, “NOT for your works, dummy, but because Ypu equate yourself equal to God.” They understood what He was saying, even if people today cannot. To them, THAT was blasphemy, and worthy of death.
Today, people unwilling for His words just as gladly attempt to put people like me to death also, wanting to silence us. When confronted, such accusations parallel those of Yahu’shuah’s accusers then. How did He silence them, by arguing with them? Absolutely not! He merely walked through them, and out of their sight and attack mode. Should I do any differently? I think not. I can imagine someone around here suggesting that you are a Drama Queen. I cannot imagine anyone around here "gladly attempting" to put a person like you to death - for any reason. So you use the methods at your disposal to silence our voices, eh? You cannot see the comparison with putting someone to death in order to silence them? Okay, that is how you see it. Thank you for commenting.
Drama Queen, indeed, I apologize for appearing to infringe upon anyone else’s title. Whatever.
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Post by Lee on Sept 30, 2018 22:13:53 GMT -5
I finished your book, Bob. Very good book, to make an understatement, on 2x2 experiences, and its influence in the world.
As I left the 2x2 as a minor, I wasn't invested in it the same way you were. But I related to everything you wrote. Vicariously, perhaps. My sister and parents are true believers.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 30, 2018 22:44:29 GMT -5
I finished your book, Bob. Very good book, to make an understatement, on 2x2 experiences, and its influence in the world. As I left the 2x2 as a minor, I wasn't invested in it the same way you were. But I related to everything you wrote. Vicariously, perhaps. My sister and parents are true believers. Thank you for your comments. I'm very much of the opinion that the reason most exes leave is that they feel their "investment" is insecure, and that can happen any time, depending on the individual and the circumstances.
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Post by Lee on Sept 30, 2018 23:07:09 GMT -5
The workers preach all religions were founded by men except theirs. Was your disposition from this sect, the catylist to your persuasion that all religions are of men (human)?
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 30, 2018 23:18:54 GMT -5
The workers preach all religions were founded by men except theirs. Was your disposition from this sect the catylist to your persuasion that all religions are of men (human)? I wouldn't say that it was my experience with the 2x2's that convinced me all religions are from humans. What did it was the discovery that all religions originated in primitive myth and lore that became accepted as religious truth. The "Truth" is just a branch of western Christendom.
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Post by Lee on Sept 30, 2018 23:27:28 GMT -5
Youre dismissive of the import of doctrine, in your summary of religion, as you explore it in your book. Especially concerning the immediate motives with which people abuse, most notably power, and I agree with that.
However, is not doctrine a shield from abuse? Doesn't the doctrine of creation suggest you're more relevant to god than the whims of man? Or the doctrine of Christ, that God himself has proptiated for your insufficiency, you don't need the whims of man, to mediate for you absolutely, or extemporaneously ?
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 1, 2018 0:08:36 GMT -5
Youre dismissive of the import of doctrine, in your summary of religion, as you explore it in your book. Especially concerning the immediate motives with which people abuse, and I agree with that. However, is not doctrine a shield from abuse? Doesn't the doctrine of creation suggest you're more relevant to god than the whims of man? Or the doctrine of Christ, that God himself has proptiated for your insufficiency, you don't need the whims of man, to mediate for you absolutely, or extemporaneously ? Like religion itself, doctrines are ALL devised by human beings, rather than materializing out of either thin air or revelation. Doctrines are all dictated by "theologians" to serve some purpose, ranging from dietary, social, political, or any other kind of question that religious people decide is their responsibility to regulate. e.g.: The doctrine of creation was introduced specifically to make people subservient to the Roman church. (political)(tribal) e.g.: The doctrine of Christ was adopted to found a religion attractive to Western/Greek Pagans. Until Jesus came, there was no need for a savior, because God had a chosen people. That all needed to be explained (doctrined) away with new doctrines on how one came to NOT be chosen; needed to accept a sent one, mediator, whatever; and needed a hell to keep him in line. Christians all accept these doctrines because they've been taught them and bound by them. All the problems caused by religions is because of why the doctrine was articulated in the beginning and who gets to decide if and how it will get enforced. Unfortunately, the myth that doctrine will shield anyone from abuse is actually the tool most used by religious people to abuse others. Too many people aren't comfortable allowing others to decide for themselves, so revert to abuse to control them.
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Post by Lee on Oct 1, 2018 0:27:03 GMT -5
I'm going with my conviction that God revealed himself in Christ, was blessed by the Catholic Church for formality and promulgating. ( God uses secular means to reveal himself, a point recognized in the OT, and by Paul).
Up until Christ ones eternal status was undeclared. Piety was referenced to this life alone, as far as the blessing and curse went. (Palsms and other literature clearly bear witness to the eternal aspirations of our souls). The sinaitic covenant was a conventional provision, and didn't comprehensively address our spiritual and psychological needs.
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 1, 2018 1:20:50 GMT -5
I'm going with my conviction that God revealed himself in Christ, was blessed by the Catholic Church for formality and promulgating. ( God uses secular means to reveal himself, a point recognized in the OT, and by Paul). That doctrine will serve you well. I doubt you're in a position to have this conviction used to abuse you. I can imagine how it could, though. That's a popular Christian doctrine. It was proposed to explain the lack of eternal status in OT times. But it's okay to believe that, if you don't bother other people by trying to make them believe it. Well, that's not doctrine. It's common advice in orderly society. It won't hurt anyone unless one tries to force some version on piety on someone else. Then it's abuse. True. It makes no difference what one believes, but depending on WHO bore such witness one might need to investigate what the speaker's definition of "soul" was. I just doubt that the modern Christian definition changes the original meaning of the Jewish writer. Souls weren't eternal to them. I agree. I suppose modern Western Christianity does address spiritual needs, but in truth those needs were defined for us by the Catholic church. I'm rather well convinced that religions' attempts to address psychological needs are more abusive and misguided than they are curative.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2018 6:39:16 GMT -5
I'm going with my conviction that God revealed himself in Christ, was blessed by the Catholic Church for formality and promulgating. ( God uses secular means to reveal himself, a point recognized in the OT, and by Paul). That doctrine will serve you well. I doubt you're in a position to have this conviction used to abuse you. I can imagine how it could, though. That's a popular Christian doctrine. It was proposed to explain the lack of eternal status in OT times. But it's okay to believe that, if you don't bother other people by trying to make them believe it. Well, that's not doctrine. It's common advice in orderly society. It won't hurt anyone unless one tries to force some version on piety on someone else. Then it's abuse. True. It makes no difference what one believes, but depending on WHO bore such witness one might need to investigate what the speaker's definition of "soul" was. I just doubt that the modern Christian definition changes the original meaning of the Jewish writer. Souls weren't eternal to them. I agree. I suppose modern Western Christianity does address spiritual needs, but in truth those needs were defined for us by the Catholic church. I'm rather well convinced that religions' attempts to address psychological needs are more abusive and misguided than they are curative. you would have a hard time with the pharisees who believed in an afterlife unlike the saducees....
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Post by nathan on Oct 1, 2018 7:45:55 GMT -5
*** What Ram and the 2x2s don't understand is in Jesus days when Jesus said he is the Son of God means he is equal to God the Father. That was why the jews were very angry and said Jesus was a blasphemer a man claimed to be God. Jesus was telling them the Truth but they did not believe him. The Jews tried to stone Jesus a few times for being a blasphemer. Well he also says we are all sons and daughters of God. So I guess we really are all Gods. Before the Fall of Adam and Eve, were Gods, they were created in the image of God.... and their children could have been Gods also. But that Gods nature were taken away after Satan beguiled Eve and Adam into Sin in the Garden of Eden, and that sinful/disobedience fallen nature/DNA passed on their humans children= Death in the lake of fire..
In Genesis 3:15 God the Father had promised Christ would come down from heaven to Redeem and Restore their Gods natures and that is they and their children MUST be born again! through Calvary's Cross that was how Christ incarnated in the person Jesus/the Man to destroy and break the bondage of sin and the second death that Satan is holding the key of death in Hades/their souls until the day of judgment to be cast into the lake of fire with Him, the fallen angels and those who worship the mark of the beast/Satan as their gods.
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 1, 2018 15:27:26 GMT -5
That doctrine will serve you well. I doubt you're in a position to have this conviction used to abuse you. I can imagine how it could, though. That's a popular Christian doctrine. It was proposed to explain the lack of eternal status in OT times. But it's okay to believe that, if you don't bother other people by trying to make them believe it. Well, that's not doctrine. It's common advice in orderly society. It won't hurt anyone unless one tries to force some version on piety on someone else. Then it's abuse. True. It makes no difference what one believes, but depending on WHO bore such witness one might need to investigate what the speaker's definition of "soul" was. I just doubt that the modern Christian definition changes the original meaning of the Jewish writer. Souls weren't eternal to them. I agree. I suppose modern Western Christianity does address spiritual needs, but in truth those needs were defined for us by the Catholic church. I'm rather well convinced that religions' attempts to address psychological needs are more abusive and misguided than they are curative. you would have a hard time with the pharisees who believed in an afterlife unlike the saducees.... That's all right. Jesus had the same problem with the Pharisees.
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Post by jetmech on Oct 2, 2018 14:16:59 GMT -5
you would have a hard time with the pharisees who believed in an afterlife unlike the saducees.... That's all right. Jesus had the same problem with the Pharisees. I haven't read your book yet but I'm going to. GO TRUMP!!!
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Post by havejoy on Oct 2, 2018 17:28:12 GMT -5
I just finished reading It and loved it. Very easy read. I find that through reading the experiences of other people is really helping me heal. Thank You for writing your story. Waiting for my hubby to finish it now so we can discuss ☺
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2018 18:14:54 GMT -5
you would have a hard time with the pharisees who believed in an afterlife unlike the saducees.... That's all right. Jesus had the same problem with the Pharisees. well it certainly wouldn't have been over believing in souls or an afterlife/resurrection like you've alleged the jews did not...
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Post by swanny on Oct 26, 2018 0:32:01 GMT -5
i have read Bob's book and enjoyed it. I can feel the pain and relate so very closely to the careless judgement.
gswan Scottsdale
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Post by Lee on Oct 29, 2018 23:10:05 GMT -5
I mentioned Bob's book to my brother today. My bro seemed somewhat comatose about it.
I didnt exoect a lot more, but I think thats too bad.
He's not professing. Seems like you should allow yourself to form some opinion of the 2x2,if you grew up in it.
The minds a wierd thing. Most people are content with their predudices. Most people prefer predudices to thought.
Maybe it's like, beam me up Scotty.
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Is Jesus like Scotty?
Or did Jesus hang in there, to witness to the truth.
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Post by magpie1 on Oct 30, 2018 2:45:38 GMT -5
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Post by Lee on Nov 7, 2018 0:17:40 GMT -5
Just got back from visiting my parents out of state. Left a copy of your book with my dad. He said you looked familiar. We talked about "Bill". If you went to Mt. Ranch in the ninties, they were there.
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Post by slowtosee on Nov 7, 2018 0:32:58 GMT -5
Just finished reading book. Thank you for writing it . Helpful to read of others painful “unfair” experiences and yet , keeping their integrity,at great personal cost . Thank you , Bob Alvin
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 7, 2018 1:28:42 GMT -5
Just got back from visiting my parents out of state. Left a copy of your book with my dad. He said you looked familiar. We talked about "Bill". If you went to Mt. Ranch in the ninties, they were there. I always went to Mt. Ranch all through the 1990's. I may very well have met him.
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