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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 5:15:41 GMT -5
you added pre-existing to the mix in an effort to throw me off...wont work however....it might work on a grade schooler though.... Wally, if you are wishing to engage in dialogue with me, please do it properly with a good spirit. If you read my PM properly (take all the time you need) you will see 'pre-existence' very much part of it. "Show me one reference anywhere from the Bible where God himself clearly testifies that he himself, or any part of him, or any other spiritual being would literally come down from Heaven to be the Jewish human being Messiah. God clearly promised that he would raise up a human being just like Moses. Moses wasn't God, was he?" i am looking real hard and i see NO WHERE in your post that you say "pre-existing" i even cleaned my glasses off just to make sure.....i do see however the blunder you made by saying "or any other spiritual being"....
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 5:22:34 GMT -5
Wally, if you are wishing to engage in dialogue with me, please do it properly with a good spirit. If you read my PM properly (take all the time you need) you will see 'pre-existence' very much part of it. "Show me one reference anywhere from the Bible where God himself clearly testifies that he himself, or any part of him, or any other spiritual being would literally come down from Heaven to be the Jewish human being Messiah. God clearly promised that he would raise up a human being just like Moses. Moses wasn't God, was he?" i am looking real hard and i see NO WHERE in your post that you say "pre-existing" i even cleaned my glasses off just to make sure.....i do see however the blunder you made by saying "or any other spiritual being".... Okay, I'll help you. Here is what I said, the very words you have just quoted. "Show me one reference anywhere from the Bible where God himself clearly testifies that he himself, or any part of him, or any other spiritual being would literally come down from Heaven to be the Jewish human being Messiah. God clearly promised that he would raise up a human being just like Moses. Moses wasn't God, was he?" Got it yet? God, or any part of him or any other spiritual being, would have to pre-exist the Jewish (prophesied) human being Messiah, if they were to literally come down and be him, no? You mention a blunder of 'or any other spirtual being.' Perhaps you could substitute your understandng for ridicule? One aspect to this is that the JoWits believe that the Archangel Michael came down to be Jesus.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 7:00:06 GMT -5
"Show me one reference anywhere from the Bible where God himself clearly testifies that he himself, or any part of him, or any other spiritual being would literally come down from Heaven to be the Jewish human being Messiah. God clearly promised that he would raise up a human being just like Moses. Moses wasn't God, was he?" i am looking real hard and i see NO WHERE in your post that you say "pre-existing" i even cleaned my glasses off just to make sure.....i do see however the blunder you made by saying "or any other spiritual being".... Okay, I'll help you. Here is what I said, the very words you have just quoted. "Show me one reference anywhere from the Bible where God himself clearly testifies that he himself, or any part of him, or any other spiritual being would literally come down from Heaven to be the Jewish human being Messiah. God clearly promised that he would raise up a human being just like Moses. Moses wasn't God, was he?" Got it yet? God, or any part of him or any other spiritual being, would have to pre-exist the Jewish (prophesied) human being Messiah, if they were to literally come down and be him, no? You mention a blunder of 'or any other spirtual being.' Perhaps you could substitute your understandng for ridicule? One aspect to this is that the JoWits believe that the Archangel Michael came down to be Jesus. just another rabbit trail and distraction to follow there ram...you are only good at that and nothing more....
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Post by Ross.Bowden on Sept 4, 2018 7:32:23 GMT -5
"Show me one reference anywhere from the Bible where God himself clearly testifies that he himself, or any part of him, or any other spiritual being would literally come down from Heaven to be the Jewish human being Messiah. God clearly promised that he would raise up a human being just like Moses. Moses wasn't God, was he?" i am looking real hard and i see NO WHERE in your post that you say "pre-existing" i even cleaned my glasses off just to make sure.....i do see however the blunder you made by saying "or any other spiritual being".... Okay, I'll help you. Here is what I said, the very words you have just quoted. "Show me one reference anywhere from the Bible where God himself clearly testifies that he himself, or any part of him, or any other spiritual being would literally come down from Heaven to be the Jewish human being Messiah. God clearly promised that he would raise up a human being just like Moses. Moses wasn't God, was he?" Got it yet? God, or any part of him or any other spiritual being, would have to pre-exist the Jewish (prophesied) human being Messiah, if they were to literally come down and be him, no? You mention a blunder of 'or any other spirtual being.' Perhaps you could substitute your understandng for ridicule? One aspect to this is that the JoWits believe that the Archangel Michael came down to be Jesus. It is quite obvious in Scripture that the Father and Son know each other intimately prior to Christ’s birth on earth. All through John’s gospel, Matthew 11 etc. There is considerable evidence in the gospels - words spoken by Jesus - of a profound unity and equality between the Father and the Son, which extends back before the creation of the world (John 1:1-3, 17:24, 3:16, 3:18). Of course we know that Christ said “Before Abraham was I AM...” in John 8:52 plus stacks of other references - Micah 5:2, John 17:5, Colossians 1:17, Hebrews 7:3, Revelation 22:13, Colossians 1:15 and I could list another 10 or so. They all clearly show that Jesus is the man from Heaven - in His own words and in the words of His apostles.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 7:53:01 GMT -5
Okay, I'll help you. Here is what I said, the very words you have just quoted. "Show me one reference anywhere from the Bible where God himself clearly testifies that he himself, or any part of him, or any other spiritual being would literally come down from Heaven to be the Jewish human being Messiah. God clearly promised that he would raise up a human being just like Moses. Moses wasn't God, was he?" Got it yet? God, or any part of him or any other spiritual being, would have to pre-exist the Jewish (prophesied) human being Messiah, if they were to literally come down and be him, no? You mention a blunder of 'or any other spirtual being.' Perhaps you could substitute your understandng for ridicule? One aspect to this is that the JoWits believe that the Archangel Michael came down to be Jesus. just another rabbit trail and distraction to follow there ram...you are only good at that and nothing more.... I see. But we don't get the benefit of your wonderful understanding?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 8:01:56 GMT -5
Okay, I'll help you. Here is what I said, the very words you have just quoted. "Show me one reference anywhere from the Bible where God himself clearly testifies that he himself, or any part of him, or any other spiritual being would literally come down from Heaven to be the Jewish human being Messiah. God clearly promised that he would raise up a human being just like Moses. Moses wasn't God, was he?" Got it yet? God, or any part of him or any other spiritual being, would have to pre-exist the Jewish (prophesied) human being Messiah, if they were to literally come down and be him, no? You mention a blunder of 'or any other spirtual being.' Perhaps you could substitute your understandng for ridicule? One aspect to this is that the JoWits believe that the Archangel Michael came down to be Jesus. It is quite obvious in Scripture that the Father and Son know each other intimately prior to Christ’s birth on earth. All through John’s gospel, Matthew 11 etc. There is considerable evidence in the gospels - words spoken by Jesus - of a profound unity and equality between the Father and the Son, which extends back before the creation of the world (John 1:1-3, 17:24, 3:16, 3:18). Of course we know that Christ said “Before Abraham was I AM...” in John 8:52 plus stacks of other references - Micah 5:2, John 17:5, Colossians 1:17, Hebrews 7:3, Revelation 22:13, Colossians 1:15 and I could list another 10 or so. They all clearly show that Jesus is the man from Heaven - in His own words and in the words of His apostles. We all know that Jesus the human being came from Heaven.It is our understanding of how that is that differs. Would you care to take your references one at a time Ross? Can we both avoid Wally's spirit from below attitude? I'll kick of with the logos or Word (of God) The Father and God are entirely synonymous throught scripture (both OT and NT). The Father and God are entirely synonymous throughout Jesus's ministry and teachings. The Word is ALWAYS God's (the Father) word. The Word is NOT Jesus. Jesus is the Word of God through his messengership and representation of God. Jesus denies that what he spoke was his own word's, but were God's. God the Father spoke through his human being Son Jesus. Before I go on it mght be peretinent to consider the following document, so that can consider any rebuttal you may have to offer thus far? Jesus is NOT the Word or Logos that John is referring to at the beginnng of his gospel. www.prweb.com/releases/2012/12/prweb10256188.htm
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Post by nathan on Sept 4, 2018 8:08:05 GMT -5
Okay, I'll help you. Here is what I said, the very words you have just quoted. "Show me one reference anywhere from the Bible where God himself clearly testifies that he himself, or any part of him, or any other spiritual being would literally come down from Heaven to be the Jewish human being Messiah. God clearly promised that he would raise up a human being just like Moses. Moses wasn't God, was he?" Got it yet? God, or any part of him or any other spiritual being, would have to pre-exist the Jewish (prophesied) human being Messiah, if they were to literally come down and be him, no? You mention a blunder of 'or any other spirtual being.' Perhaps you could substitute your understandng for ridicule? One aspect to this is that the JoWits believe that the Archangel Michael came down to be Jesus. just another rabbit trail and distraction to follow there ram...you are only good at that and nothing more.... Amen, Wally.... many good answers to Ram. He sees and understands ONLY half-truth about Jesus. Christ is God/the Son, who came down from heaven and incarnated as Jesus the Son of Man and God. Jesus is God and Man in ONE body. When I get back from work I will show Ram, many verses in the OLD testament and New Test, where Jesus is God and Man.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 8:13:55 GMT -5
just another rabbit trail and distraction to follow there ram...you are only good at that and nothing more.... Amen, Wally.... many good answers to Ram. He sees and understands ONLY half-truth about Jesus. Christ is God/the Son, who came down from heaven and incarnated as Jesus the Son of Man and God. Jesus is God and Man in ONE body. When I get back from work I will show Ram, many verses in the OLD testament and New Test, where Jesus is God and Man.
Fair enough Nathan. But NO imaginings, repetative copy and pastes, and I demand your own understandings. One thing at a time. No moving on until we thoroughly discuss a reference.
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Post by intelchips on Sept 4, 2018 8:22:23 GMT -5
It is quite obvious in Scripture that the Father and Son know each other intimately prior to Christ’s birth on earth. All through John’s gospel, Matthew 11 etc. There is considerable evidence in the gospels - words spoken by Jesus - of a profound unity and equality between the Father and the Son, which extends back before the creation of the world (John 1:1-3, 17:24, 3:16, 3:18). Of course we know that Christ said “Before Abraham was I AM...” in John 8:52 plus stacks of other references - Micah 5:2, John 17:5, Colossians 1:17, Hebrews 7:3, Revelation 22:13, Colossians 1:15 and I could list another 10 or so. They all clearly show that Jesus is the man from Heaven - in His own words and in the words of His apostles. We all know that Jesus the human being came from Heaven.It is our understanding of how that is that differs. Would you care to take your references one at a time Ross? Can we both avoid Wally's spirit from below attitude? I'll kick of with the logos or Word (of God) The Father and God are entirely synonymous throught scripture (both OT and NT). The Father and God are entirely synonymous throughout Jesus's ministry and teachings. The Word is ALWAYS God's (the Father) word. The Word is NOT Jesus. Jesus is the Word of God through his messengership and representation of God. Jesus denies that what he spoke was his own word's, but were God's. God the Father spoke through his human being Son Jesus. Before I go on it mght be peretinent to consider the following document, so that can consider any rebuttal you may have to offer thus far? Jesus is NOT the Word or Logos that John is referring to at the beginnng of his gospel. www.prweb.com/releases/2012/12/prweb10256188.htmRam you're quite right on this subject. However, your reference will bare no fruit with this lot because they are all blind mice. I've seen over and over again on this forum where a person gives great evidence for a point of view and in each case it is glossed over and no enlightenment ever takes place.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 8:39:41 GMT -5
We all know that Jesus the human being came from Heaven.It is our understanding of how that is that differs. Would you care to take your references one at a time Ross? Can we both avoid Wally's spirit from below attitude? I'll kick of with the logos or Word (of God) The Father and God are entirely synonymous throught scripture (both OT and NT). The Father and God are entirely synonymous throughout Jesus's ministry and teachings. The Word is ALWAYS God's (the Father) word. The Word is NOT Jesus. Jesus is the Word of God through his messengership and representation of God. Jesus denies that what he spoke was his own word's, but were God's. God the Father spoke through his human being Son Jesus. Before I go on it mght be peretinent to consider the following document, so that can consider any rebuttal you may have to offer thus far? Jesus is NOT the Word or Logos that John is referring to at the beginnng of his gospel. www.prweb.com/releases/2012/12/prweb10256188.htmRam you're quite right on this subject. However, your reference will bare no fruit with this lot because they are all blind mice. I've seen over and over again on this forum where a person gives great evidence for a point of view and in each case it is glossed over and no enlightenment ever takes place. Thank you my dear friend. Your words of support are very much appreciated. I know what I am up against, so I have no fear about cutting things short and departing. I will need to do that anyway, soon, due to other engagements. I am prepared to take one reference at a time and I expect anyone who engages me to properly discuss matters, otherwise I will ignore them. One matter at a time, and be fully prepared to give account of why you believe the way you do, or else do not get involved. Be accountable for your beliefs. No parrot sketches. It is my understanding that believng that Jesus is the actual, pre-existing Word of God alters a whole belief system, an incorrect one. Therefore start of any debate by presenting a scriptural rebuttal for the article presented or do not get involved. Here is the article again. www.prweb.com/releases/2012/12/prweb10256188.htm
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Post by havejoy on Sept 4, 2018 9:42:40 GMT -5
Just ordered our copy! Can't wait to read it.
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Post by nathan on Sept 4, 2018 10:12:50 GMT -5
It is quite obvious in Scripture that the Father and Son know each other intimately prior to Christ’s birth on earth. All through John’s gospel, Matthew 11 etc. There is considerable evidence in the gospels - words spoken by Jesus - of a profound unity and equality between the Father and the Son, which extends back before the creation of the world (John 1:1-3, 17:24, 3:16, 3:18). Of course we know that Christ said “Before Abraham was I AM...” in John 8:52 plus stacks of other references - Micah 5:2, John 17:5, Colossians 1:17, Hebrews 7:3, Revelation 22:13, Colossians 1:15 and I could list another 10 or so. They all clearly show that Jesus is the man from Heaven - in His own words and in the words of His apostles. We all know that Jesus the human being came from Heaven.It is our understanding of how that is that differs. Would you care to take your references one at a time Ross? Can we both avoid Wally's spirit from below attitude? I'll kick of with the logos or Word (of God) The Father and God are entirely synonymous throught scripture (both OT and NT). The Father and God are entirely synonymous throughout Jesus's ministry and teachings. The Word is ALWAYS God's (the Father) word. The Word is NOT Jesus. Jesus is the Word of God through his messengership and representation of God. Jesus denies that what he spoke was his own word's, but were God's. God the Father spoke through his human being Son Jesus. Before I go on it mght be peretinent to consider the following document, so that can consider any rebuttal you may have to offer thus far? Jesus is NOT the Word or Logos that John is referring to at the beginnng of his gospel. www.prweb.com/releases/2012/12/prweb10256188.htm** You said the Word of God is ALWAYS the Father. However, in the gospel of John chapter 1 he wrote the Word/Logos is God. The Word God made flesh in the man Jesus and dwell among us. In the book of Rev. It says the written title on Jesus garment is the Word/Logos. Can you explain to us, why Jesus has the name Logos the Word of God? Why would Jesus called the Word/Logos when that name ONLY belongs to God the Father? Thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 12:29:33 GMT -5
We all know that Jesus the human being came from Heaven.It is our understanding of how that is that differs. Would you care to take your references one at a time Ross? Can we both avoid Wally's spirit from below attitude? I'll kick of with the logos or Word (of God) The Father and God are entirely synonymous throught scripture (both OT and NT). The Father and God are entirely synonymous throughout Jesus's ministry and teachings. The Word is ALWAYS God's (the Father) word. The Word is NOT Jesus. Jesus is the Word of God through his messengership and representation of God. Jesus denies that what he spoke was his own word's, but were God's. God the Father spoke through his human being Son Jesus. Before I go on it mght be peretinent to consider the following document, so that can consider any rebuttal you may have to offer thus far? Jesus is NOT the Word or Logos that John is referring to at the beginnng of his gospel. www.prweb.com/releases/2012/12/prweb10256188.htm** You said the Word of God is ALWAYS the Father. However, in the gospel of John chapter 1 he wrote the Word/Logos is God. The Word God made flesh in the man Jesus and dwell among us. I couldn't agree more, Nathan. It's in how we see this that we differ. God and the Father are entirely synonymous (the same) throughout scripture, including the words that Jesus spoke. Therefore the Word or Logos, which is the Father's/God's Word is indeed God as stated inJohn 1.1. Just as your word is you or yours. The Word or Logos is NOT Jesus. God spoke creation into existence. It was his word as can clearly be seen in Genesis. Jesus is the Word of God through messengership and representation. The Holy Bible is often referred to as the Word of God because it contains what God has said. Did you read AND understand the article I posted for you? Can you present any reference that states that Jesus s the Word or Logos, prior to John 1.1, where it is erroneously assumed it is referring to Jesus?
In the book of Rev. It says the written title on Jesus garment is the Word/Logos. God speaks to us through his human being Son Jesus. Jesus represents God the Father. He is God's ambassadeur. It is like an ambassadeur speaking on behalf of the country he represents. In my case he would be the UK speaking. At the UN table he would have the name 'United Kingdom' displayed in front of him to state whom he was representng and speakn on behalf of. Throughout his ministry Jesus stated regularly that the words he spake were not hs own but were the Father's words. Before he was seized to be crucfied he prayed to the Father,'I have given them YOUR word.' At the very beginnng of Revelations we read that all that Jesus said afterwards was given to hm by God.
Rev.1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Can explain to us, why Jesus has the name Logos the Word of God? Why would Jesus called the Word/Logos when that name ONLY belongs to God the Father? Thanks.
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Post by intelchips on Sept 4, 2018 12:49:49 GMT -5
Ram you're quite right on this subject. However, your reference will bare no fruit with this lot because they are all blind mice. I've seen over and over again on this forum where a person gives great evidence for a point of view and in each case it is glossed over and no enlightenment ever takes place. That’s rather a rude and unintelligent comment, particularly given that you are glossing over a whole raft of Scripture that supports both Jesus as the Divine Word who is Lord and God. Exactly, scripture which is all we had until recently but now we know how the Gnostics thought so why can't you see their hand in the NT?
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Post by snow on Sept 4, 2018 12:54:03 GMT -5
Ah, okay. I see. That seemed to be a theme about Jesus. Lots of people saying what he said and even saying he wrote something. But nothing from the man himself. I've often wondered about that. There are lots of gospels, some made the bible and we discovered more when we found the books for the Nag Hammadi Library. But we still haven't found a book entitled "The Gospel of Jesus". Maybe we should start another thread. This is a bit off topic since it's about Bob's book. I see that "Ram," -that dear boy, -hasn't shed his sexist rhetoric yet. Guess it is true that it is hard to teach an old dog anything new. Ahh but DMG I am such a dear, lol, don't cha know. I don't mind. People are who they are and it just makes the world more interesting!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 12:57:26 GMT -5
We all know that Jesus the human being came from Heaven.It is our understanding of how that is that differs. Would you care to take your references one at a time Ross? Can we both avoid Wally's spirit from below attitude? I'll kick of with the logos or Word (of God) The Father and God are entirely synonymous throught scripture (both OT and NT). The Father and God are entirely synonymous throughout Jesus's ministry and teachings. The Word is ALWAYS God's (the Father) word. The Word is NOT Jesus. Jesus is the Word of God through his messengership and representation of God. Jesus denies that what he spoke was his own word's, but were God's. God the Father spoke through his human being Son Jesus. Before I go on it mght be peretinent to consider the following document, so that can consider any rebuttal you may have to offer thus far? Jesus is NOT the Word or Logos that John is referring to at the beginnng of his gospel. www.prweb.com/releases/2012/12/prweb10256188.htmRam - I’m always happy to have a civilised discussion but the article in my view is not well reasoned and leaps both logic and Biblical texts to reach what I consider to be a faulty conclusion. I respect your analysis, but can you respond to the challenge to provide a scriptural reference which clearly states that Jesus is the actual Word of God itself, rather than being God's messenger. It seems many theological brains across the world are confounded by the challenge. Reading things into the text or imagining what it says, as you will appreciate, is only opinion or speculation. It is clear instruction from scrpture we want.I think it’s very clear from numerous passages (John 1, Hebrews 1, Colossians 1 etc.) that Jesus is the Word (Logos). He is the means by which the Father brought all physical reality into existence and because He is the One who represents the Father’s invisible nature and character to that creation. Can you show how in these passages you have quoted, how it is clear that Jesus is the actual word of God, rather than being God's messenger. From the three references you have quoted, I see anything but the clear message that you apparently see?The name of the LORD was one of the most common OT phrases - Jesus in Matt 28 simply expanded the name of YAHWEH to the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I don't see any deliberate expansion as you say. This sounds like an imaginative aplication? You are aware there is dispute over the final inclusion of these words in the text? However, I do not know this for certain, so will address the reference at face value. The singular 'name' can have plural aplication. I did it myself when I swore and oath in the 'name' of the Queen, country and employer,' etc. The Holy Spirit, which proceeds from the Father, is God's spiritual force or agency and Jesus is the Father's human representative, all speakng for and in harmony with God. God saves the human race through his beloved son Jesus and with the agency of his Holy Spirit which is given to all believers.Jesus said very clearly that He is the way, the truth and the life. No-one can come to the Father except by and through the Son, the One - the Word - who has made the Father known to us. You have inserted 'the word' into your statement. Where did that come from? My KJV John 14.6 states it this way. '6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.' Jesus didn't say he was the Father, the Word. or God. Rather he said he was the way to the Father, the truth of the father and the life that is pleasing to the father. It is through following these examples that we come to God the Father.I understand you do not accept Jesus as the Logos. We’ll have to differ on that point. I’ve got stacks of Bible teaching in Africa over the next two weeks so will have limited time but am happy to briefly answer. Ross, many thanks. I too have very pressing engagements in the near future and won't be able to engage as much as I would like. I do appreciate the spirit in which you are engaging me and I wish you all the best and every success in Africa. I accept that Jesus is the Word of God through messengershp and representation only. I do not believe that he is the actual Word of God itself and believe that scrpture fully supports my position.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 13:06:14 GMT -5
I see that "Ram," -that dear boy, -hasn't shed his sexist rhetoric yet. Guess it is true that it is hard to teach an old dog anything new. Ahh but DMG I am such a dear, lol, don't cha know. I don't mind. People are who they are and it just makes the world more interesting! Ah, calling Snow 'my dear' is sexist is it. I thought it was a term of endearment. A gesture to invoke trust? Definately old dog. No new tricks from me. Have a nice day ladies. Good to tune into you both again.
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Post by intelchips on Sept 4, 2018 13:14:56 GMT -5
Exactly, scripture which is all we had until recently but now we know how the Gnostics thought so why can't you see their hand in the NT? Given that no credible scholar believes that the Gnostic gospels were written by their name-sake, I don’t think Christians have to worry about them. They were written much, much later than the NT. Where do you get such an idea? the Gnostic Views existed way before 30CE.
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Post by snow on Sept 4, 2018 13:15:23 GMT -5
We all know that Jesus the human being came from Heaven.It is our understanding of how that is that differs. Would you care to take your references one at a time Ross? Can we both avoid Wally's spirit from below attitude? I'll kick of with the logos or Word (of God) The Father and God are entirely synonymous throught scripture (both OT and NT). The Father and God are entirely synonymous throughout Jesus's ministry and teachings. The Word is ALWAYS God's (the Father) word. The Word is NOT Jesus. Jesus is the Word of God through his messengership and representation of God. Jesus denies that what he spoke was his own word's, but were God's. God the Father spoke through his human being Son Jesus. Before I go on it mght be peretinent to consider the following document, so that can consider any rebuttal you may have to offer thus far? Jesus is NOT the Word or Logos that John is referring to at the beginnng of his gospel. www.prweb.com/releases/2012/12/prweb10256188.htmRam you're quite right on this subject. However, your reference will bare no fruit with this lot because they are all blind mice. I've seen over and over again on this forum where a person gives great evidence for a point of view and in each case it is glossed over and no enlightenment ever takes place. I have found that no matter how much fact or proof of data, if it doesn't agree with the bible then it's just ignored. But that's the definition of faith isn't it? You have to believe the bible, not science or facts that come from the studies of men. Trouble is, the bible is written by men too.
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Post by intelchips on Sept 4, 2018 13:21:28 GMT -5
I know this is wasted but easy for anyone to find in wiki:
"The Gnostic ideas and systems flourished in the Mediterranean world in the second century AD, in conjunction with and influenced by the early Christian movements and Middle Platonism. After the second century, a decline set in, but Gnosticism persisted throughout the centuries as an undercurrent of western culture, re-manifesting with the Renaissance as Western esotericism, taking prominence with modern spirituality. In the Persian Empire, Gnosticism spread as far as China with Manicheism, while Mandaeism is still alive in Iraq."
Greek philosophy (such as that of Plato) proposed the existence of a higher realm of eternal unchanging perfection and truth. Plato’s dialogue, the Timaeus,contains his attempt to explain the origins of the order and beauty in the universe. He posits the existence of a Demiurge (Creator) as the first cause who must be supremely good in order to account for the manifest goodness we see in the universe. The created universe is seen as the realm of ever-changing Becoming, as opposed to the higher realm of unchanging Being.
Pythagoreans referred to the first cause of the universe as the Monad (the One) which gave birth to the Dyad (the Many).
Gnosticism undoubtedly borrowed many of these ideas and terms to express its mythology of the higher world of the Monad producing the Dyad, and of an evil demiurge producing our wicked world. Although much of the vocabulary and concepts of Greek philosophy are present in gnosticism, its emphasis is placed firmly upon salvation through revelation as opposed to the philosophical pursuit of understanding life in a non-religious way.
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Post by snow on Sept 4, 2018 13:22:30 GMT -5
Exactly, scripture which is all we had until recently but now we know how the Gnostics thought so why can't you see their hand in the NT? Given that no credible scholar believes that the Gnostic gospels were written by their name-sake, I don’t think Christians have to worry about them. They were written much, much later than the NT. And also remember that none of the gospels with possibly the exception of John are written by their namesakes. They were written after the fall of Jerusalem and not by the apostles. The Gnostic thought was around at the time of Jesus and the Gospel of Thomas has a lot of the same quotes that some of the other gospels that did make the bible, have. I enjoyed reading the Gnostic Hag Hammadi Library. It gives us a clear picture of the various views that were existing around the time of Jesus. Remember, the RCC are the organization that decided whether or not the Gnostic gospels met their agenda and if they didn't they didn't make the bible. Doesn't mean they are right or wrong, just they don't line up with RCC beliefs at the time.
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Post by snow on Sept 4, 2018 13:24:08 GMT -5
Ahh but DMG I am such a dear, lol, don't cha know. I don't mind. People are who they are and it just makes the world more interesting! Ah, calling Snow 'my dear' is sexist is it. I thought it was a term of endearment. A gesture to invoke trust? Definately old dog. No new tricks from me. Have a nice day ladies. Good to tune into you both again. I don't mind Ram. I've been called a lot worse
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Post by nathan on Sept 4, 2018 13:40:32 GMT -5
** You said the Word of God is ALWAYS the Father. However, in the gospel of John chapter 1 he wrote the Word/Logos is God. The Word God made flesh in the man Jesus and dwell among us. I couldn't agree more, Nathan. It's in how we see this that we differ. God and the Father are entirely synonymous (the same) throughout scripture, including the words that Jesus spoke. Therefore the Word or Logos, which is the Father's/God's Word is indeed God as stated inJohn 1.1. Just as your word is you or yours. The Word or Logos is NOT Jesus. God spoke creation into existence. It was his word as can clearly be seen in Genesis. Jesus is the Word of God through messengership and representation. The Holy Bible is often referred to as the Word of God because it contains what God has said. Did you read AND understand the article I posted for you? Can you present any reference that states that Jesus s the Word or Logos, prior to John 1.1, where it is erroneously assumed it is referring to Jesus?
In the book of Rev. It says the written title on Jesus garment is the Word/Logos. God speaks to us through his human being Son Jesus. Jesus represents God the Father. He is God's ambassadeur. It is like an ambassadeur speaking on behalf of the country he represents. In my case he would be the UK speaking. At the UN table he would have the name 'United Kingdom' displayed in front of him to state whom he was representng and speakn on behalf of. Throughout his ministry Jesus stated regularly that the words he spake were not hs own but were the Father's words. Before he was seized to be crucfied he prayed to the Father,'I have given them YOUR word.' At the very beginnng of Revelations we read that all that Jesus said afterwards was given to hm by God.
Rev.1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Can explain to us, why Jesus has the name Logos the Word of God? Why would Jesus called the Word/Logos when that name ONLY belongs to God the Father? Thanks. ** MANY believers on TMB will disagree with your interpretation of John chapter 1 that Jesus is NOT the Logos or God who came down from heaven and lived among us. In the book of Rev 1-21 Jesus said He is the ALMIGHTY God the Alpha and Omega. The WORD Logos God and God.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 14:02:09 GMT -5
** MANY believers on TMB will disagee with your interpretation of John chapter 1 that Jesus is NOT the Logos or God who came down from and lived among us. Nathan, I don't care if the whole world disagrees with me. I seek the truth. God himself spelt it out exactly how his word would become flesh and live amongst us, when he spoke to Moses. God was sickened by the children of Israel seekng after false gods, famliar spirits pagan gods and practices, etc. This is why he told Moses that he would raise up a man, a prophet like him, from amongst their Brethren and put into him his words. This is how the word of God was made flesh. Jesus was not God or part of God or anything like that. He was simply the human being son of God through whom God spoke.
Deuteronomy 18
9 When thou art come into the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
13 Thou shalt be perfect with the Lord thy God.
14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the Lord thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.
15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16 According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17 And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
In the book of Rev 1-21 Jesus said He is the ALMIGHTY God the Alpha and Omega. The WORD Logos God and God. In Revelations the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus are two separate things. This is clear from the text. The Word of God is God's word which was given to Jesus. Read the text carefully without assumptions. Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” (NIV)
1. These words apply to God, not to Christ. The one, “who is, and who was and who is to come” is clearly identified from the context. Revelation 1:4 and 5 reads: “Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, AND from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.” The separation between “the one who was, is and is to come” and Christ can be clearly seen. The one “who is, and who was and who is to come” is God.
2. This verse is made slightly more ambiguous in the KJV because the word “God” is left out of the Greek text from which the KJV was translated. Nevertheless, modern textual research shows conclusively that it should be included, and modern versions do include the word “God.”
3. Because of the phrase, “the Alpha and the Omega,” many feel this verse refers to Christ. However, a study of the occurrences of the phrase indicates that the title “Alpha and Omega” applies to both God and Christ. Scholars are not completely sure what the phrase “the Alpha and the Omega” means. It cannot be strictly literal, because neither God nor Christ is a Greek letter. Lenski concludes, “It is fruitless to search Jewish and pagan literature for the source of something that resembles this name Alpha and Omega. Nowhere is a person, to say nothing of a divine Person, called ‘Alpha and Omega,’ or in Hebrew, ‘Aleph and Tau.'” [1]
Although there is no evidence from the historical sources that anyone is named “the Alpha and Omega,” Bullinger says that the phrase “is a Hebraism, in common use among the ancient Jewish Commentators to designate the whole of anything from the beginning to the end; e.g., ‘Adam transgressed the whole law from Aleph to Tau’ (Jalk. Reub., fol. 17.4)” [2] The best scholarly minds have concluded that the phrase has something to do with starting and finishing something, or the entirety of something. Norton writes that these words, “denote the certain accomplishment of his purposes; that what he has begun he will carry on to its consummation” (pp. 479 and 480).
Since both God and Jesus Christ are “the Alpha and the Omega” in their own respective ways, there is good reason to believe that the title can apply to both of them, and no good reason why that makes the two into “one God.” The titles “Lord” (see Rom. 10:9), “Savior” (see Luke 1:47) and “king of kings (see 1 Tim. 6:14-16) apply to both God and Christ, as well as to other men. As with “Lord,” “Savior” and “King of kings,” this title fits them both. God is truly the beginning and the end of all things, while Christ is the beginning and the end because he is the firstborn from the dead, the Author and Finisher of faith, the Man by whom God will judge the world, and the creator of the new ages to come (see Heb. 1:10).
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Post by Dennis J on Sept 4, 2018 14:43:42 GMT -5
Feeling compelled to offer what little I have and is worth to anyone, on this topic. Where and how DID my Lord first appear in my Bible?
Well, it tells me “in the beginning God... “ God, what? Created the heavens and the earth. Do we as “believers” agree? Then “God said,” still in agreement? “Saying” indicates Spoken Word, no?
To my mind then, by what it said, Yahu’shuah came to be as that God spoken Word, which for me fits in with the record of John and the Beginning. If my Spirit God does exist as I believe, He does so as Will, Word, and Power, all otherwise beyond the comprehension of my finite human mind. Such is what composes for me that Godhead of the Spirit I worship, longing to please with all of my being.
In that Will, Word, and Power, personally, I can perceive The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, even should others not. I pray to, and believe in, them equally. Equally one, unique Spirit God, working and existing as one, tying otherwise confusing scripture together. Does it matter to me what others believe? No, not at all regarding this concept and perception I have of my God.
So, I share it here by compulsion for others to accept or reject without consequence to what I perceive. Arrogant? Only to those who perceive it so, surely not to my Infinite God, nor the many who like me who believe in Him.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 15:01:27 GMT -5
Thanks Ram - I think it’s very clear from the Scripture I’ve quoted. There are many other places where Jesus is clearly not just a mouthpiece or messenger. The transfiguration - where God and humanity meet - is an obvious example and if Christ was a mere messenger he would have clearly asked Paul to declare the name of God or the name of His Father. Rather, He asks Paul to declare His name to the Gentiles - Jesus knows (and it is clear from hundreds of passages of Scripture) that His name is the name of the LORD.
Christ’s words in Matt 28 are no accident - i believe it’s a very clear explanation of what is obvious in the NT and simply and emphatically indicates who YAHWEH is.
I realise we won’t agree on this one but understand your argument.
Thanks for your kind wishes.
Hi Ross,
Many thanks for your reply. Obviously what you have expressed is your opinion and as to clear or emphatic statements I do detect a large degree of bias and supposition. I appreciate the demands on your time, otherwise I would have looked forward to discussng a few of the verses you have in mind. I am also conscous that have limited time at the moment also.
Best wishes and God bless.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 15:08:33 GMT -5
Dennis - I think you’ve done a great job of putting into words what I see so clearly in God’s Word.
Our Lord would have made it patently clear if He was not Lord and God - rather He did the opposite and even more clearly after the resurrection.
No wonder the Father could say of his Son - in the beginning O Lord you laid the foundations of the earth and the heavens are the work of your hands.
Ross it is my understanding that the writer of Hebrews was referring to God with the above statement. God is the primary person being addressed in the chapter, with Jesus beng the secondary one.
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Post by snow on Sept 4, 2018 15:39:15 GMT -5
Feeling compelled to offer what little I have and is worth to anyone, on this topic. Where and how DID my Lord first appear in my Bible?
Well, it tells me “in the beginning God... “ God, what? Created the heavens and the earth. Do we as “believers” agree? Then “God said,” still in agreement? “Saying” indicates Spoken Word, no?
To my mind then, by what it said, Yahu’shuah came to be as that God spoken Word, which for me fits in with the record of John and the Beginning. If my Spirit God does exist as I believe, He does so as Will, Word, and Power, all otherwise beyond the comprehension of my finite human mind. Such is what composes for me that Godhead of the Spirit I worship, longing to please with all of my being.
In that Will, Word, and Power, personally, I can perceive The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, even should others not. I pray to, and believe in, them equally. Equally one, unique Spirit God, working and existing as one, tying otherwise confusing scripture together. Does it matter to me what others believe? No, not at all regarding this concept and perception I have of my God.
So, I share it here by compulsion for others to accept or reject without consequence to what I perceive. Arrogant? Only to those who perceive it so, surely not to my Infinite God, nor the many who like me who believe in Him. Dennis - I think you’ve done a great job of putting into words what I see so clearly in God’s Word. Our Lord would have made it patently clear if He was not Lord and God - rather He did the opposite and even more clearly after the resurrection. No wonder the Father could say of his Son - in the beginning O Lord you laid the foundations of the earth and the heavens are the work of your hands. But he also made it clear that we are all Gods. But no one believes that to be true. Why not?
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