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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Jul 28, 2018 7:09:32 GMT -5
The title of this thread is an allusion to Bob Williston's just-released book, I will Disentangle Myself and Leave. Is anyone interested in discussing it? Has anyone else read it? (I have a few chapters to go, actually.) Some of you - particularly those who still attend meetings and those who have engaged in another Christian religion - will likely disagree with Bob's views. But that's okay. This is about his experience, and he attempts to dissuade no one from their faith. Just listen to his story, which happens to resonate deeply with my own. I appreciate a story that is well-written, and someone who can lay aside religious beliefs to analyze the psychological and sociological aspects of what occurred.
I still love "the friends," and actually see them quite often here on Guam. We have meals or coffee with friends and workers, we visit occasional gospel meetings, special meetings and the annual convention. We donʻt go to "spy" or to criticize. They have been kind to us, and we love them. And yet...these painful stories actually happen. One happened to me and Jayne, as one did to Bob, Judy and their daughters. I know/knew most of the people in Bobʻs story - it occurred in a former field, at the hands of former co-workers. Some of the same workers were involved in our story too. They astounded - and hurt - me. "Tangled" is a great word for it all.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2018 8:27:52 GMT -5
I just ordered mine, will check back later
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Post by snow on Jul 28, 2018 13:53:20 GMT -5
Alan Vandermyden I haven't read the final version but I have read most of it. It sure opened my eyes about how the workers work. What a story! When I left I wasn't an adult and I've been out for a long time. So a lot of what he wrote sure was new to me. I also like his chapters on religions and the history of Christianity etc.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Jul 28, 2018 15:28:59 GMT -5
And that's the paradox in at all, which the book brings out so well! I have received great kindness in the words a worker spoke directly to me, while at the same time others were seemingly wary of us, though never stating what we had done wrong. But then, I have repeatedly felt the same paradox in other institutions - notably the workplace. We have become masters at "holding two realities." Alan Vandermyden I haven't read the final version but I have read most of it. It sure opened my eyes about how the workers work. What a story! When I left I wasn't an adult and I've been out for a long time. So a lot of what he wrote sure was new to me. I also like his chapters on religions and the history of Christianity etc.
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Post by snow on Jul 28, 2018 15:51:17 GMT -5
And that's the paradox in at all, which the book brings out so well! I have received great kindness in the words a worker spoke directly to me, while at the same time others were seemingly wary of us, though never stating what we had done wrong. But then, I have repeatedly felt the same paradox in other institutions - notably the workplace. We have become masters at "holding two realities." Alan Vandermyden I haven't read the final version but I have read most of it. It sure opened my eyes about how the workers work. What a story! When I left I wasn't an adult and I've been out for a long time. So a lot of what he wrote sure was new to me. I also like his chapters on religions and the history of Christianity etc. Yes it seems to depend on the person and how they view things. I knew many really kind workers that I respected. I also knew some I wouldn't want to be around if I had a choice. I found a lot of his story to be so sad. It just didn't need to be like that. But the belief that they are the only true ministers in the only true denomination makes it so they have to be exclusive. With exclusivity comes rules. With rules they need to be enforced. But it divides and causes so many hard feelings. And yes, I agree, it's not just the workers that do this.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 28, 2018 21:43:19 GMT -5
Back cover of: I will Disentangle Myself….and Leave by Bob Williston The author, raised in a mellow fundamentalist Christian sect, spoke out in defense of egregiously abused members of the group. That precipitated a decade of false accusations, harassment, and ostracization; and subsequently failed health, a lost career, and separation from a lifetime social support system. Forced to leave, he researched, the origins and history of the group and scandalous events that belied the group’s harmonious reputation. Further, in his search of what to safely believe in, he gained the equivalent of a major in religious studies. He concludes with what he found would satisfy his sense of morality. Bob Williston was raised in Miramichi, New Brunswick, and is a graduate of the University of New Brunswick. His post-graduate schools have included Université Laval, Boston University, and College of Southern Nevada. His career has included teacher of French, English Language, U.S. History, and Political Science in several provinces of Canada and Nevada. For a short time he taught Character Education at a middle school for delinquent students. As well, he served in one session of the Nevada Legislature as Secretary to the Senate Finance Committee. He is now retired and living in Las Vegas, Nevada. Litfire Publishing, June, 2018, 352 pages SBN: 978-1-64151-425-5 Order from Amazon or Litfire
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Post by withlove on Jul 28, 2018 22:16:17 GMT -5
Am in process of reading, also, and feeling grateful that Bob did the hard and painful thing by writing this out, and beyond that, living it. Thank you, Bob.
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Post by Gene on Jul 28, 2018 22:53:28 GMT -5
In my view, it's an important account of how a series of disturbing experiences in the 2x2s caused one man to examine not only that particular denomination, but also the Bible, and Christianity, and religion in general, and the nature of abusive relationships. I recommend it for anyone who is interested in any of the aforementioned topics - but especially for those who are interested in the intersection of all of them.
And for those who have had similar experiences, you may find Bob's writing to help you sort out some of your own thoughts and experiences, as it has done for me.
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Post by joanna on Jul 28, 2018 23:33:06 GMT -5
Alan Vandermyden
Whatever the cohort of people we mix in, it is likely we will find a cross section of character types. Some with integrity who we can rely on, others who are dishonest, bigoted and controlling to name a few negative traits.
" With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion" S Weinberg
The subordination of individuals by pressuring them to surrender and conform to a hierarchy using threats and control fuels the lust for power of some church leaders/ workers.
Just more evidence that belief in the christian god (or any others) is an ineffective means of suppressing our innate human proclivities.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2018 7:39:24 GMT -5
I just ordered a copy from Amazon.ca
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Post by snow on Jul 29, 2018 12:45:12 GMT -5
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 29, 2018 12:47:02 GMT -5
I just ordered a copy from Amazon.ca Merci
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 29, 2018 12:52:53 GMT -5
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Post by snow on Jul 29, 2018 13:23:21 GMT -5
Thanks Bob. I will see if my nook will access it. I wish I'd bought kindle because it seems they have better access to ebooks than nook. If I can't get the ebook, I will go the hard copy route. I very much want to read the final edition. Thank you for writing this book and sharing it with us. I found it. You are now on my Nook!
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Post by intelchips on Jul 29, 2018 13:26:29 GMT -5
Maybe this is a question for you Bob (and good luck on sale of your book) I notice above the word "cohort" in Joanna's post and when I see that word I always wonder why they (the Romans) had to send a cohort to arrest Jesus with his 12? Depending on in what age you make your enquire, a cohort consisted of six centuriae, each commanded by a centurion assisted by junior officers. And each of these century might have 60 to 100 men. Seem a bit of an over kill for such a peaceful man.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 29, 2018 14:58:09 GMT -5
Maybe this is a question for you Bob (and good luck on sale of your book) I notice above the word "cohort" in Joanna's post and when I see that word I always wonder why they (the Romans) had to send a cohort to arrest Jesus with his 12? Depending on in what age you make your enquire, a cohort consisted of six centuriae, each commanded by a centurion assisted by junior officers. And each of these century might have 60 to 100 men. Seem a bit of an over kill for such a peaceful man. It's common enough today to use the word cohort to refer to a group of people banded together for some common objective, as undoubtedly was the use Joanna was making of the word. As for what it meant in the story of Jesus, I don't know the answer to that use of the word. But we have to consider that Jesus, to the Romans, was considered a traitor to the Roman Empire who had arrived in the city just a few days earlier to a worshipful crowd of Jews who were hostile to Roman domination. One could easily imagine that once the Sanhedrin turned him over to the Romans that the Romans were going to make abundantly sure that he not escape. Something like sending an army to reign in Robert E Lee.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jul 29, 2018 23:13:48 GMT -5
Congratulations Bob, on the release of your (latest) book! I look forward to reading it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2018 23:45:03 GMT -5
Maybe this is a question for you Bob (and good luck on sale of your book) I notice above the word "cohort" in Joanna's post and when I see that word I always wonder why they (the Romans) had to send a cohort to arrest Jesus with his 12? Depending on in what age you make your enquire, a cohort consisted of six centuriae, each commanded by a centurion assisted by junior officers. And each of these century might have 60 to 100 men. Seem a bit of an over kill for such a peaceful man. probably the motto of the day was better safe than sorry....
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Post by ellie on Jul 30, 2018 7:42:15 GMT -5
Thanks Bob. I will see if my nook will access it. I wish I'd bought kindle because it seems they have better access to ebooks than nook. If this is a regular problem you could download a free app to convert the file types. I like calibre but I think it's not so great currently for converting the new kindle KFX format.
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Post by ellie on Jul 30, 2018 8:05:11 GMT -5
Congratulations Bob, on the release of your (latest) book! I look forward to reading it. Ditto!
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Post by snow on Jul 30, 2018 11:52:28 GMT -5
Every time I read Bob's experiences and what happened I just shake my head. I feel so sorry for the guy named 'Bill' in the book (well not just Bill, a lot of people got shafted). He truly got shafted and it is sickening how the workers not only allowed it, but contributed to it. When I read books about the group and how it operates I can't help but wonder if things have just changed a lot in 50 years or was I just completely blind to the corruption? Probably the later as I really did try to just ignore what went on for my own mental health back then. I had no say in whether I had to be part of the group or not as a minor. So I just tried to ignore the talk about me and live my life as best I could. Can anyone comment on whether it was as bad as it was in the 90's as it was when I was growing up in the F&W's in the 50's, 60's and early 70's? Or did things change to the level of corruption we see in the 90's. The Alberta fiasco, and the fiasco in Northern Nevada. I wonder now how many other areas saw things like this and it's just never been talked about.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 30, 2018 18:46:48 GMT -5
Every time I read Bob's experiences and what happened I just shake my head. I feel so sorry for the guy named 'Bill' in the book (well not just Bill, a lot of people got shafted). He truly got shafted and it is sickening how the workers not only allowed it, but contributed to it. When I read books about the group and how it operates I can't help but wonder if things have just changed a lot in 50 years or was I just completely blind to the corruption? Probably the later as I really did try to just ignore what went on for my own mental health back then. I had no say in whether I had to be part of the group or not as a minor. So I just tried to ignore the talk about me and live my life as best I could. Can anyone comment on whether it was as bad as it was in the 90's as it was when I was growing up in the F&W's in the 50's, 60's and early 70's? Or did things change to the level of corruption we see in the 90's. The Alberta fiasco, and the fiasco in Northern Nevada. I wonder now how many other areas saw things like this and it's just never been talked about. I agree that SO much concerning appearance and technologies and media have changed among the 2x2's. What will not change is the internal politics of the group. It is authoritarian to the point that in any field there is only one person who has the FINAL word on everything that gets addressed, and there is no mechanism of appeal. Don't ask me how some people get to do what no one else can get off with.
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Post by magpie on Jul 30, 2018 19:38:03 GMT -5
Thanks Bob, Exing can be a most painful experience,especially if you declare the (Holy) Spirit of God was involved. You suddenly are orphaned from family and 2x2 associates. . One family member said,"You have just bought your ticket to damnation". Hope it enlightens and encourages people to realise they are rejecting a Doctrine and not God. Thanks again. Magpie.
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Post by snow on Jul 31, 2018 13:51:37 GMT -5
Every time I read Bob's experiences and what happened I just shake my head. I feel so sorry for the guy named 'Bill' in the book (well not just Bill, a lot of people got shafted). He truly got shafted and it is sickening how the workers not only allowed it, but contributed to it. When I read books about the group and how it operates I can't help but wonder if things have just changed a lot in 50 years or was I just completely blind to the corruption? Probably the later as I really did try to just ignore what went on for my own mental health back then. I had no say in whether I had to be part of the group or not as a minor. So I just tried to ignore the talk about me and live my life as best I could. Can anyone comment on whether it was as bad as it was in the 90's as it was when I was growing up in the F&W's in the 50's, 60's and early 70's? Or did things change to the level of corruption we see in the 90's. The Alberta fiasco, and the fiasco in Northern Nevada. I wonder now how many other areas saw things like this and it's just never been talked about. I agree that SO much concerning appearance and technologies and media have changed among the 2x2's. What will not change is the internal politics of the group. It is authoritarian to the point that in any field there is only one person who has the FINAL word on everything that gets addressed, and there is no mechanism of appeal. Don't ask me how some people get to do what no one else can get off with. True, some got away with more than others. Saw that a lot. Once I quite professing I recognized how much I was trying to fit in. When I quit professing I no longer tried because I was an outcast anyway. But if you had a big house, nice car for the workers and money to spend on them, you definitely had many things you did 'like the world' overlooked. Now not all the workers were like this. Many genuine loving workers out there. But the ones that did that were so transparent in what they were doing that even I as a young teenager saw it.
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Post by Dennis J on Jul 31, 2018 15:29:44 GMT -5
True, some got away with more than others. Saw that a lot. Once I quite professing I recognized how much I was trying to fit in. When I quit professing I no longer tried because I was an outcast anyway. But if you had a big house, nice car for the workers and money to spend on them, you definitely had many things you did 'like the world' overlooked. Now not all the workers were like this. Many genuine loving workers out there. But the ones that did that were so transparent in what they were doing that even I as a young teenager saw it. Smile. And then some people wonder why younger workers frequently have problems (even if unspoken) with “older” companions. If even a preteen-ager can spot such things, WHY should anyone doubt companions can? If depth of consecration is at all more than just skin deep, they will put up with it for some length of time, but not forever.
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Post by snow on Jul 31, 2018 15:45:21 GMT -5
True, some got away with more than others. Saw that a lot. Once I quite professing I recognized how much I was trying to fit in. When I quit professing I no longer tried because I was an outcast anyway. But if you had a big house, nice car for the workers and money to spend on them, you definitely had many things you did 'like the world' overlooked. Now not all the workers were like this. Many genuine loving workers out there. But the ones that did that were so transparent in what they were doing that even I as a young teenager saw it. Smile. And then some people wonder why younger workers frequently have problems (even if unspoken) with “older” companions. If even a preteen-ager can spot such things, WHY should anyone doubt companions can? If depth of consecration is at all more than just skin deep, they will put up with it for some length of time, but not forever. You know, I just can't figure out how they get away with it really. In some cases it's so blatant and no one questions. Abuse is just redefined as tough love when in some cases it goes way over the line. But not all of the friends got targeted. I felt really sorry for some.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 31, 2018 17:44:13 GMT -5
Smile. And then some people wonder why younger workers frequently have problems (even if unspoken) with “older” companions. If even a preteen-ager can spot such things, WHY should anyone doubt companions can? If depth of consecration is at all more than just skin deep, they will put up with it for some length of time, but not forever. You know, I just can't figure out how they get away with it really. In some cases it's so blatant and no one questions. Abuse is just redefined as tough love when in some cases it goes way over the line. But not all of the friends got targeted. I felt really sorry for some. Most people, even in the general population, have no skills at all for detecting and defending themselves against "emotional" abuse. Shaming people is degrading no matter how successful it seems to be. The bigger problem then is that the one who shamed you knows he can do it again because responding to a shaming is the same as confessing a sin to the confessor … they "have you".
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Post by intelchips on Jul 31, 2018 17:51:17 GMT -5
You know, I just can't figure out how they get away with it really. In some cases it's so blatant and no one questions. Abuse is just redefined as tough love when in some cases it goes way over the line. But not all of the friends got targeted. I felt really sorry for some. Most people, even in the general population, have no skills at all for detecting and defending themselves against "emotional" abuse. Shaming people is degrading no matter how successful it seems to be. The bigger problem then is that the one who shamed you knows he can do it again because responding to a shaming is the same as confessing a sin to the confessor … they "have you". Bob could there be some connection to what you say in this post that also applies to why Schools never really deal witrh Bullying?
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