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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 16:28:58 GMT -5
Given that no credible scholar believes that the Gnostic gospels were written by their name-sake, I don’t think Christians have to worry about them. They were written much, much later than the NT. Where do you get such an idea? the Gnostic Views existed way before 30CE. from wiki: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism#OriginsORIGINS: The earliest origins of Gnosticism are obscure and still disputed. The Christian groups called Gnostics a heresy of Christianity,[note 13][not in citation given] but according to the modern scholars the theology's origin is closely related to Jewish sectarian milieus and early Christian sects.[12][13][note 14][14] Gnostics seem to have originated in Alexandria and coexisted with the early Christians until the 4th century AD.[citation needed] Some scholars prefer to speak of "gnosis" when referring to first-century ideas that later developed into gnosticism, and to reserve the term "gnosticism" for the synthesis of these ideas into a coherent movement in the second century.[15] No gnostic texts have been discovered that pre-date Christianity,[note 15] and "pre-Christian Gnosticism as such is hardly attested in a way to settle the debate once and for all."[16]
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Post by nathan on Sept 4, 2018 17:14:49 GMT -5
Dennis - I think you’ve done a great job of putting into words what I see so clearly in God’s Word. Our Lord would have made it patently clear if He was not Lord and God - rather He did the opposite and even more clearly after the resurrection. No wonder the Father could say of his Son - in the beginning O Lord you laid the foundations of the earth and the heavens are the work of your hands. But he also made it clear that we are all Gods. But no one believes that to be true. Why not? Adam and Eve were created in the image of God but AFTER they ate the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden, they became mortal souls, no longer Gods in God's eyes. ALL humans became mortals beings, we became Gods again through the adoption/being born again of Christ, he restored our rightful position as Gods before the Fall of Adam and Eve.
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Post by intelchips on Sept 4, 2018 17:15:01 GMT -5
Where do you get such an idea? the Gnostic Views existed way before 30CE. from wiki: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism#OriginsORIGINS: The earliest origins of Gnosticism are obscure and still disputed. The Christian groups called Gnostics a heresy of Christianity,[note 13][not in citation given] but according to the modern scholars the theology's origin is closely related to Jewish sectarian milieus and early Christian sects.[12][13][note 14][14] Gnostics seem to have originated in Alexandria and coexisted with the early Christians until the 4th century AD.[citation needed] Some scholars prefer to speak of "gnosis" when referring to first-century ideas that later developed into gnosticism, and to reserve the term "gnosticism" for the synthesis of these ideas into a coherent movement in the second century.[15] No gnostic texts have been discovered that pre-date Christianity,[note 15] and "pre-Christian Gnosticism as such is hardly attested in a way to settle the debate once and for all."[16] Wally I didn't write you a complete study guide but above I did mention that it goes back to higher Greek thought and you are forgetting the Dead Seas Scroll which contain Gnostic thought and they were buried in the caves before the rise of Christianity. It (Gnostic thought) doesn't care one hoot if you accept the facts but they remain in any event.
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Post by nathan on Sept 4, 2018 17:33:58 GMT -5
Dennis - I think you’ve done a great job of putting into words what I see so clearly in God’s Word. Our Lord would have made it patently clear if He was not Lord and God - rather He did the opposite and even more clearly after the resurrection. No wonder the Father could say of his Son - in the beginning O Lord you laid the foundations of the earth and the heavens are the work of your hands.Ross it is my understanding that the writer of Hebrews was referring to God with the above statement. God is the primary person being addressed in the chapter, with Jesus beng the secondary one. In Hebrews chapter 1 the author wrote it was God (the Father), who said and called the Son/Christ, "Lord and God." creator of the heavens and the earth are the works of His hands. VERY clearly....
Heb. 1:5-12 For unto which of the angels said He/God at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 18:28:04 GMT -5
from wiki: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism#OriginsORIGINS: The earliest origins of Gnosticism are obscure and still disputed. The Christian groups called Gnostics a heresy of Christianity,[note 13][not in citation given] but according to the modern scholars the theology's origin is closely related to Jewish sectarian milieus and early Christian sects.[12][13][note 14][14] Gnostics seem to have originated in Alexandria and coexisted with the early Christians until the 4th century AD.[citation needed] Some scholars prefer to speak of "gnosis" when referring to first-century ideas that later developed into gnosticism, and to reserve the term "gnosticism" for the synthesis of these ideas into a coherent movement in the second century.[15] No gnostic texts have been discovered that pre-date Christianity,[note 15] and "pre-Christian Gnosticism as such is hardly attested in a way to settle the debate once and for all."[16] Wally I didn't write you a complete study guide but above I did mention that it goes back to higher Greek thought and you are forgetting the Dead Seas Scroll which contain Gnostic thought and they were buried in the caves before the rise of Christianity. It (Gnostic thought) doesn't care one hoot if you accept the facts but they remain in any event. i've never heard the dead sea scrolls refered to as gnostic except from you....you must be the lone voice crying in the wilderness aye?
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Post by intelchips on Sept 4, 2018 19:39:36 GMT -5
Wally I didn't write you a complete study guide but above I did mention that it goes back to higher Greek thought and you are forgetting the Dead Seas Scroll which contain Gnostic thought and they were buried in the caves before the rise of Christianity. It (Gnostic thought) doesn't care one hoot if you accept the facts but they remain in any event. i've never heard the dead sea scrolls refered to as gnostic except from you....you must be the lone voice crying in the wilderness aye? Well Mr. Wally first listen to this www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjbwYZ_QDVs then read the part of the Community Scrolls that speak to the evil of reality and see if you can't find Gnostic through throughout the community scrolls. And the idea of separating one from the world.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 4, 2018 20:03:28 GMT -5
Wally I didn't write you a complete study guide but above I did mention that it goes back to higher Greek thought and you are forgetting the Dead Seas Scroll which contain Gnostic thought and they were buried in the caves before the rise of Christianity. It (Gnostic thought) doesn't care one hoot if you accept the facts but they remain in any event. i've never heard the dead sea scrolls refered to as gnostic except from you....you must be the lone voice crying in the wilderness aye? Actually, no, he's not a lone voice crying in the wilderness. I know a lot of knowledgeable people who agree with him.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 3:41:20 GMT -5
Dennis - I think you’ve done a great job of putting into words what I see so clearly in God’s Word. Our Lord would have made it patently clear if He was not Lord and God - rather He did the opposite and even more clearly after the resurrection. No wonder the Father could say of his Son - in the beginning O Lord you laid the foundations of the earth and the heavens are the work of your hands.Ross it is my understanding that the writer of Hebrews was referring to God with the above statement. God is the primary person being addressed in the chapter, with Jesus beng the secondary one. In Hebrews chapter 1 the author wrote it was God (the Father), who said and called the Son/Christ, "Lord and God." creator of the heavens and the earth are the works of His hands. VERY clearly....
Heb. 1:5-12 For unto which of the angels said He/God at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And,
In the OT times it was common for persons in authority, men of valour, position, even religous leaders, to be called gods. Here is one example to consider.
Psalm 82:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Please keep this culture in mind. Jesus had completed his Father's work and because of his 100% obedience he received his inheritance, the throne of glory promised to him which as God's faithful son he fell heir to. After his resurection Jesus said all authority/power has been given to me in heaven and earth. A human being in his glorified body now rules over the universe on behalf of his Father and God who is the Almighty God. He will remain so until he defeats all his enemies, the last of which is death. Then he will return his power to his Father and God.
By reason of his position and power, effectively acting on behalf of his Father and God who is the Almighty God, Jesus can quite rightly be called 'O God' . The Almighty God has enthroned him because he has loved righteousness and hated iniquity. This is his inheritance. He has received his crown of glory and now has control of the Holy Sirit which he sends to believers (now called the Spirt of Christ). Jesus is a human being who has received his glorified body and rules the universe at the side of his Father and Almighty God. If kings and queens, mighty men of valour, people in authority, can be called gods, then how much more because of his position can Jesus correctly be called 'O God?' He is NOT the Almighty God. The Almighty God is the Father AND God of Jesus. Jesus has God status because of his victory over the world, the flesh and the devil and completing all that his Father sent him (raised him up) to do. It is his inheritance for his 100% faithfulness and obedience.
Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Please read Chapter 1 of Hebrews very slowly and think carefully about it. The writer is speakng first and foremost about God NOT Jesus. It s God whom the writer is speaking of whenhe says 'Thou Lord, in the beginning hast thou laid the foundation of the earth....' The matter is confused by the preceding couple of verses where the writer is speaking about God giving Jesus his inheritance.
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Post by Ross.Bowden on Sept 5, 2018 7:56:17 GMT -5
I'll add some further comments from John as I'm preparing a lesson for next week on them.
A very small number of people who deny the deity of Christ read John 13:49 and conclude that Jesus is merely a mouthpiece for the Father – that Christ does not have any words but speaks only the words of the Father who has commanded Him what to say and how to say it.
Of course, Jesus is saying something quite different than that – His opening words “for I did not speak of my own accord…” give the context for this statement.
Jesus also states in this passage that he is not the judge – His father is the judge.
Jesus in this passage is saying to the leaders that His authority and words do not come from himself alone, but from His Father. He and His Father are in complete unity and speak exactly the same words.
We then look at John 5 where Christ gives us more insight. Here he tells us again that the Son does not act on His own, but does exactly what the Father does. They act and speak in complete unity.
Christ also says “whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life”. If he was a mere messenger he would talk about whoever hears him speak his Father’s words - not the Son's Words…..” He would not claim anything on his own.
He goes onto say that “There is a time coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live….”
Again, interesting that he doesn’t say “hear the voice of the Father through me….”.
He also goes onto say that “as the Father gives life, even so the Son gives life to those whom He is pleased to give it…”
It would simply be impossible for Christ to say that if he was a mere human messenger.
Furthermore, the Son indicates in John 5 that He is indeed the Judge as all judgement has been entrusted to the Son.
What we see in both these passages (John 13 and John 5) is that both the Father and Son judge, give life, speak the living Word and are indeed the living Word.
Which is exactly what John says so clearly in John 1.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 8:32:31 GMT -5
Ram - that’s a very unusual reading of Hebrews 1 and your reading of it conflicts with what we are told about Jesus in Colossians 1. Jesus forgave sins very early in His ministry - something only God can do. He explained that as a man He had authority to do this on earth - something obviously the Creator had the ability to do eternally. Ross, Please forgive me (you have power to do that), but you will have to explain your understanding of Colossians 1 before I can consider where any potential conflict on my part lies?
You are right that the son of Man was given power to forgve sins whlst he was on the earth. However, this was God acting through him. It was God himself who did the forgiving. All that Jesus spoke and all the works that he did, was the Father working through him. Of himself Jesus could do nothing. He tells us that himself.
John 14:10 King James Version (KJV) 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.We too have been given power to forgive those who trespass aganst us. In fact if we don't God won't forgive us our trespasses. We are commanded to forgive. God would not have commanded us to forgive if he was going to gve us power to do so. It is God working through us. We have not been given power to forgive another's sins, generally speaking, but we have for those sins committed against us. If we forgive someone who trespasses against us, the matter is finished in God's eyes. We have carred out the work of God.
Matthew 6:14-15 King James Version (KJV) 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
It’s also worth mentioning a mere spokesman or messenger doesn’t say “the Son gives life to whom He is pleased to give it...”. Of course, Paul also tells the church at Corinth that Christ is not only a man but a life-giving spirit. A mere messenger doesn’t say that he is the resurrection and the life, the way, Truth and life etc. A messenger would most certainly point only to YAHWEH if indeed the messenger was not the LORD. But the messenger is the LORD so Christ can say these things because He is the giver of life. Anyone who speaks the true word of God is not a mere spokesman, but a messenger of the Most High. Would you treat a high official from the Government as a mere spokesman? Christ became the life giving spirit when he received all power n Heaven and Earth and received control of the Holy Spirit, which he sends to us as the Spirit of Christ.
Acts 2. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
It’s not clear what you do with the Holy Spirit which is interchangeably referred to as God, God’s Spirit, Christ’s Spirit, the Spirit of Christ. In a similar vein we are told that God lives in us, Christ lives in us, the Father lives in, the Holy Spirit lives in us, the Spirit of Christ lives in us. Of course, we know these all to be true - YAHWEH - Father, Sin and Holy Spirit are in us via the Holy Spirit living in us. The Holy Spirit is the Fathers (God's) Spirit. Jesus tells us it proceeds from the Father. The Word is God's Word (aka the Father) and the Spirit is God's (aka the Father) spirit. These three are all God, just like your word and your spirit are part of or proceed from your being. That is where the three are one. Jesus Christ is the human being Son of God who because of his 100% obedience to his Father's will, on his resurrection, received all power in Heaven and on earth. He was given control of the God the Father's (his God and his Father) Spirit which he sends to all his true followers as Comforter, teacher, sustainer, etc. This control that Jesus the human being has, lasts until he has defeated all his enemies, the last of which is death. Then he hands the control back to hs Father and God. Understanding this makes it a very simple matter to see how God's Spirit is also God, the Spirit of God, Holy Ghost, The Spirit of Christ, even Christ himself since he has control of it. It is all one and the same thing. When we receve the Holy Ghost, we also receive God and Jesus. We are one with them as they are with each other and every other true believer. I was going to put the following quote somewhere but forgot where.
John 14:12 King James Version (KJV) 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 9:13:28 GMT -5
I'll add some further comments from John as I'm preparing a lesson for next week on them. A very small number of people who deny the deity of Christ read John 13:49 and conclude that Jesus is merely a mouthpiece for the Father – that Christ does not have any words but speaks only the words of the Father who has commanded Him what to say and how to say it. Jesus is God's messenger. He tells us himself that he spoke all that God commanded him. This does not mean he did not have general conversation.
Of course, Jesus is saying something quite different than that – His opening words “for I did not speak of my own accord…” give the context for this statement. Jesus also states in this passage that he is not the judge – His father is the judge. Jesus in this passage is saying to the leaders that His authority and words do not come from himself alone, but from His Father. He and His Father are in complete unity and speak exactly the same words. We then look at John 5 where Christ gives us more insight. Here he tells us again that the Son does not act on His own, but does exactly what the Father does. They act and speak in complete unity. Jesus is at one with God. This unity should not be confused with equality, but rather it comes from Jesus's complete submission todoing his Father's will. This is where the unty comes from. Jesus also tells us the Father is greater than he. He always pointed to God as the ole authority, not himself. His unity with God came from his comlete obedience.Christ also says “whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life”. If he was a mere messenger he would talk about whoever hears him speak his Father’s words - not the Son's Words…..” He would not claim anything on his own. But this he did. 'The words that spake are not my own, but the Fathers.'
He goes onto say that “There is a time coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live….” Again, interesting that he doesn’t say “hear the voice of the Father through me….”. God gave Jesus all authority/power in heaven and on earth on his resurrection. Jesus is ruling over the universe on behalf of his Father and God as part of his inheritance. It is the human being Jesus who will return to this earth in hs glorified body, with the glory of God with him. He will be doing this on behalf of God. Representing God in whatever place should never be looked upon as 'mere!' Jesus has God's authority to act on God's behalf.
He also goes onto say that “as the Father gives life, even so the Son gives life to those whom He is pleased to give it…” It would simply be impossible for Christ to say that if he was a mere human messenger. The word of God is spirit and life to those who believe it. If you go to Africa and if you speak the true word of God as a true servant of God, you will be giving spirtual life to those who believe it. You will be God's messenger, acting on his behalf, The words will not be your own, but those of him who sent you!Jesus sends the Holy Ghost to those who receive him through the preaching of his word.
Furthermore, the Son indicates in John 5 that He is indeed the Judge as all judgement has been entrusted to the Son. Yes, Jesus has been given all power and authority to act of God's behalf.What we see in both these passages (John 13 and John 5) is that both the Father and Son judge, give life, speak the living Word and are indeed the living Word. Which is exactly what John says so clearly in John 1. The Word of God is always the Father's/God's word. Throughout Jesus's ministry Jesus confirms this. Jesus is NOT the logos or word itself. However, he is the word of God through messengership and representation. Even Rev. 1.1 confirms this still.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 9:33:23 GMT -5
Hi Ross, I am stll at a loss how my beliefs conflict with Colossians 1 ! Rather I see them in complete harmony. However, I appreciate the following passages from the KJV might throw some people into thinking that Jesus created all things with the use of the word 'by.' Jesus was in the mind and plan of God from the very beginning. God created all things 'through' his plan for Jesus and all things were for Jesus in the fulfillment of time. In the following passages In the KJV the word 'by' should be regarded as 'through' as in the NIV passages quoted afterwards. It's like this. You are travellng from Point A to Point C, but you are going through, or by, Point B.
Verse 17 confirms that Jesus was first and foremost in God's plans. This is how Jesus could say to the Pharisees.... 'Before Abraham, I am' (the one to be)
KJV Colossians 1
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
NIV
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 12:39:20 GMT -5
I can plant and water (1 Cor 3) but I simply can’t give life. Nor can you. Jesus gives life and is a life giving spirit. That’s why He is the Word. You don't provide chapter and verse for this Ross. It is your idea. The word of God is Spirit and Life to those who believe it. Jesus sends the Holy Spirit to those who receive God's word. Whatever way you look at it, the word is always God the Father's word.
He is far more than God’s messenger and most of t he things we have been talking about occurred and were said well before the resurrection which completely is at odds with your thesis. You need to cite examples in order that we can clear things up?
A person - any person - simply does not say “I am the way, truth and life” and the “resurrection and the life” if they are not the giver of life. It should be obvious that you and I could never say that even though we might spread and water the seed. That's not what I was implying. Jesus is the Son of God. He is the way, the truth and the life that leads to the Father. Those who receive the Word by those who were sent with it, receives Jesus and in turn receives the Father. Jesus clearly told his human disciples that whoever receives you, receives me and that whoever receives me, receives him who sent me. God uses the agency of human beings.
As I said it’s obvious that God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all live in us by His Spirit. You have not commented on this interchangeability. You have overlooked what I said. The Holy Spirit IS God's Spirit. Jesus tells us it proceeds from the Father. From Jesus's teachings it is clear that the Father and God are one and the same thing. Jesus inherited the Holy Ghost as part of his inheritance upon his resurrection as part of being granted all power/authority in Heaven and earth which he sends to us. The Holy Ghost can variously be described as God's Spirit, the Holy Spirit or Ghost, the Spirit of Jesus, the Spirit of Christ. It is the same spirit. This is how we have God's Spirit, Christ, the Holy Spirit dwellng in us. It is all the same thing. How much more interchangeable can it be?Jesus is not going to ask Paul to uphold His name if He is not God. Imagine you asking people to uphold your name! No, He is going to ask Paul to uphold YAHWEH’s name because Christ knows He is LORD, along with the Father and Spirit. Just what is it about havng been granted all power and authority in Heaven and earth that you don't understand. Jesus has been given control of all things until he has defeated his enemies and then hands back that authority to his Father and God. This isn't a matter for imagination. It is about believng the word of God. God decides what is, NOT us.
Christ accepts the name of God, claims equality with God (well before the resurrection), is worshipped as God (despite a few people in the world claiming that this worship is a mere tipping of the hat!) and accepts worship as God. Not once did Jesus claim equality with God. He rejected that and it was part of his victory. The Pharisees accused him of making himself equal with God (but not God himself). Jesus claimed to be the son of God. In Jewish and other cultures a son was consdered equal to the Father because one day he would take over the Father's business and authority, not because he was equal at that moment and time. In a sense this is what has happened with Jesus. He has inherited his Father's business for a time. To the Pharisees this was seen as one day he will be God.
Jesus did not ever claim equality with God. If he did the purpose of his life would have been in vain as he would have failed. In the beginning Satan tried to be equal with God and was cast out of Heaven. He then tried to get Adam and Eve to be equal with God and caused them to be disobedient. They were cast out of the Garden of Eden. Satan then tried to get Jesus to be equal with God through his temptations when Christ had gone 40 days and 40 nights without food. Satan failed and the gospel story could then be revealed to the world. Jesus was 100% subservient and obedient to his Heavenly Father and has received his reward and inheritance. Of course the man from heaven is exalted to the Highest place - after He has lowered and humbled himself from the Highest place he originally held with the Father before time began.and before He entered humanity. So a human being was in Heaven before he was born of Mary? It is a human being that is ruling in Heaven now? You need to explain how and why you believe the above with references please. Also why you don't believe God's promises in Deuteronomy 18.
I won’t comment more on Hebrews 1 and John 1 other than to ask that you go back to the Greek and study it. You’ll find that your explanation of these passages, including language constructs are in error. No, I have consulted amongst the best authorities on the matter. You have yet to point out the errors in the document I provided that clearly showed why Jesus is NOT the logos. It is not enough to merely reject it. You must show where it is wrong and why. If you do not wish to accept it for whatever reason, then you must explain why. It makes some very important claims which will affect our understandng of the gospel.
I also don’t believe you’ve handled Matt 28 well - it’s obvious to everyone (except a few who don’t want to accept it) that Christ was simply spelling out one of the most common OT phrases - in the name of the LORD = in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I'm assuming you are referrng to the below passages?
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Note...Jesus has been given (not returned to or given back) ALL power in heaven and Earth.This human being has been given authority over the universe because of his faithfulness and obedience, 100% pure, as his inheritance. He is stting beside the Almighty God, who is still his Father and God, to whom he is still obedient to. He represents his God fully. He has control of the Holy Spirit, the most powerful force imaginable. He is one with his Father and God through God's Holy Spirit. They all represent one and the same thing. God. It is through Jesus, by the power of the Holy Ghost that we come to the Father. I can't put it any plainer than that.
You will apreciate that the the baptismal term in verse 19 is questioned by many theologians because all the evidence is that the discples baptised in the name of Jesus only. Nevertheless I accept it at face value because as I have explained twice before, God's Spirit can variously be described as the Holy Spirit or Ghost, The Spirit of Christ, indwelling God, Christ within, etc. It is a spiritual matter and that spirit is one and the same thing. He who receives the Spirit of God, receives the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, because the Spirit is the same spirit. Being baptised with water is not enough as you know. We must be baptised with the Holy Ghost which is the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ. This may offer an exlanation for the batismal wording in verse 19?
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Post by snow on Sept 5, 2018 13:39:39 GMT -5
But he also made it clear that we are all Gods. But no one believes that to be true. Why not? Adam and Eve were created in the image of God but AFTER they ate the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden, they became mortal souls, no longer Gods in God's eyes. ALL humans became mortals beings, we became Gods again through the adoption/being born again of Christ, he restored our rightful position as Gods before the Fall of Adam and Eve.
That's not what John says in 10:34 and Psalm 82:6.
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Post by snow on Sept 5, 2018 13:49:02 GMT -5
i've never heard the dead sea scrolls refered to as gnostic except from you....you must be the lone voice crying in the wilderness aye? Well Mr. Wally first listen to this www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjbwYZ_QDVs then read the part of the Community Scrolls that speak to the evil of reality and see if you can't find Gnostic through throughout the community scrolls. And the idea of separating one from the world. The Essenes were somewhat Gnostic in thought. They were rather extreme though. The Gospels that the Nag Hammadi Library holds seem to be a more middle of the road Gnostic thought. Then we have the Cathars which were Gnostic in many ways. They also believed in the demiurge.
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Post by snow on Sept 5, 2018 13:53:06 GMT -5
Ram - that’s a very unusual reading of Hebrews 1 and your reading of it conflicts with what we are told about Jesus in Colossians 1. Jesus forgave sins very early in His ministry - something only God can do. He explained that as a man He had authority to do this on earth - something obviously the Creator had the ability to do eternally. It’s also worth mentioning a mere spokesman or messenger doesn’t say “the Son gives life to whom He is pleased to give it...”. Of course, Paul also tells the church at Corinth that Christ is not only a man but a life-giving spirit. A mere messenger doesn’t say that he is the resurrection and the life, the way, Truth and life etc. A messenger would most certainly point only to YAHWEH if indeed the messenger was not the LORD. But the messenger is the LORD so Christ can say these things because He is the giver of life. It’s not clear what you do with the Holy Spirit which is interchangeably referred to as God, God’s Spirit, Christ’s Spirit, the Spirit of Christ. In a similar vein we are told that God lives in us, Christ lives in us, the Father lives in, the Holy Spirit lives in us, the Spirit of Christ lives in us. Of course, we know these all to be true - YAHWEH - Father, Sin and Holy Spirit are in us via the Holy Spirit living in us. Why do you have to be a God in order to forgive sins? Why couldn't God give a man authority to do that. You yourself say that Jesus told them that 'as a man He had authority to do this on earth." So it says right there that he is a man that was also given the authority to forgive. If God is all powerful, there is no reason why Jesus needed to be a God to forgive. All he needed was God's authority imo.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 15:00:04 GMT -5
Ram - that’s a very unusual reading of Hebrews 1 and your reading of it conflicts with what we are told about Jesus in Colossians 1. Jesus forgave sins very early in His ministry - something only God can do. He explained that as a man He had authority to do this on earth - something obviously the Creator had the ability to do eternally. It’s also worth mentioning a mere spokesman or messenger doesn’t say “the Son gives life to whom He is pleased to give it...”. Of course, Paul also tells the church at Corinth that Christ is not only a man but a life-giving spirit. A mere messenger doesn’t say that he is the resurrection and the life, the way, Truth and life etc. A messenger would most certainly point only to YAHWEH if indeed the messenger was not the LORD. But the messenger is the LORD so Christ can say these things because He is the giver of life. It’s not clear what you do with the Holy Spirit which is interchangeably referred to as God, God’s Spirit, Christ’s Spirit, the Spirit of Christ. In a similar vein we are told that God lives in us, Christ lives in us, the Father lives in, the Holy Spirit lives in us, the Spirit of Christ lives in us. Of course, we know these all to be true - YAHWEH - Father, Sin and Holy Spirit are in us via the Holy Spirit living in us. Why do you have to be a God in order to forgive sins? Why couldn't God give a man authority to do that. You yourself say that Jesus told them that 'as a man He had authority to do this on earth." So it says right there that he is a man that was also given the authority to forgive. If God is all powerful, there is no reason why Jesus needed to be a God to forgive. All he needed was God's authority imo. What God allows or authorises, who are we to hinder? We are clearly commanded to forgive others their trespasses against us, otherwise God will not forgive our trespasses against him. God wants to forgive through us. Our willingness to forgive others is God working through us. If we don't forgive others, we obstruct the Holy Ghost in its work. God loves reconciliation, the restoring of relationships, or the efforts to bring that about, allow it to happen.
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Post by nathan on Sept 5, 2018 15:03:03 GMT -5
*** Thanks, Ross for all you have shared. From all the posts that I read from Ram. He believes like many current workers and the friends are believing.
The word God refers ONLY to God the Father and NOT the Son. The Father is Eternal but Jesus is begotten only 2000 yrs ago, so he is ONLY the Son of God.
What Ram and many current workers and friends don't understand is... Christ is God who is ETERNAL like the Father and Holy Spirit. Christ is the WORD of God who came down from heaven in the person Jesus. That made Jesus is both God and Man.
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Post by Dennis J on Sept 5, 2018 15:07:25 GMT -5
In His day and time, people heard what THE LORD was teaching and took up stones to kill Him. He asked them basically, “why are you intending to kill Me, for what work have I done that you believe me worthy of death?”
How did they respond to Him? Basically they responded, “NOT for your works, dummy, but because Ypu equate yourself equal to God.” They understood what He was saying, even if people today cannot. To them, THAT was blasphemy, and worthy of death.
Today, people unwilling for His words just as gladly attempt to put people like me to death also, wanting to silence us. When confronted, such accusations parallel those of Yahu’shuah’s accusers then. How did He silence them, by arguing with them? Absolutely not! He merely walked through them, and out of their sight and attack mode. Should I do any differently? I think not.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 15:28:08 GMT -5
It pays to consider what scripture actually says, and seek its proper context.
John 5:17-30 King James Version (KJV) 17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I wor
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
At NO time did Jesus EVER claim equality to God. This was not something to grasp at and Jesus never attempted it.
The Jews mistakenly claimed that Jesus made himself equal to God simply because he said that God was his Father. That is the precise context of it. Back then a son was regarded as equal to his father because in due process of time he would take over his father's business and position by inheritance and thus attain equal status to his father. (Actually in a sense this is what the human being Jesus eventually attained)
If Jesus had claimed equality to God he would have finished his mission on earth as a failure/disobedient. In the beginning Satan desired to be equal with God and was kicked out of Heaven. Satan then deceived Adam and Eve to seek equality with God and they got kicked out of the Garden of Eden. Then Satan tried to get the second Adam to claim equality with God after Jesus had been in the wilderness for 40 days and 40 nights without food, by tempting him to try and work miracles on his own behalf. Jesus refused to consider, remaining 100% obedient to his Heavenly Father and God. Immediately before Jesus was tempted by the devil, he was at his baptism empowered by the Holy Ghost in preparation for his ministry to work miracles, etc. However, the temptation to work a miracle, something that he had not tested before, must have been great if only to sustain himself naturally, but he did not, remaining submissive to the Father's will. If Jesus had listened to Satan and attempted to prove his God given power, he would have failed due to grasping at equality with God. Thankfully Jesus resisted the devil's temptations and commenced his mnistry.All the works that Jesus did was God the Father workng through him. Jesus himself said that he could do nothing of himself.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 15:57:30 GMT -5
*** Thanks, Ross for all you have shared. From all the posts that I read from Ram. He believes like many current workers and the friends are believing. The word God refers ONLY to God the Father and NOT the Son. The Father is Eternal but Jesus is begotten only 2000 yrs ago, so he is ONLY the Son of God. What Ram and many current workers and friends don't understand is... Christ is God who is ETERNAL like the Father and Holy Spirit. Christ is the WORD of God who came down from heaven in the person Jesus. That made Jesus is both God and Man. Nathan, I am sorry but you and others are making a huge mistake. When Jesus was on the earth, most of the time he claimed to be the Son of Man, the prophesied human being Messiah. Less often he claimed to be the Son of God, probably because the Jews would seek to kill him rather than listen to him. Like the Son of Man title, the Son of God title was entirely a human being designation. Neither title ever implied that Jesus was God or anything like that. In Matthew 16 Jesus asked the disciples who men said that he was. Here are the passages. 13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.Notice how men could not identify him as to whom he really was, neither the human being Messiah nor the human being Son of God. They saw hm as a good man and IMAGINED him to be John the Baptist, Elias, Jeremias, or one of the Prophets, etc. However Peter saw him as 'the Christ, the Son of the Living God.' He did NOT see him as God, or part of a trinity and neither of these things were ever revealed to Peter. God revealed to Peter EXACTLY who Jesus was...both the Christ and the Son of God. Both of these are human being only titles.God gave Peter the FULL revelation of whom Jesus actually was...nothing hidden, and you can see the excitement in Jesus's response, 'Blessed art thou Smon Barjona, for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my father which is in Heaven.' Since then man has imagined Jesus to be more than the Son of God, including elevating him to be God himself, or part of a trinity, etc, but these are flesh and blood imaginings and are NOT revelations from God. The devil is doing a great work in deceiving many people away from the reality of whom Jesus is and causing them to imagine Jesus to be different from what God the Father has revealed. Only the name of Jesus Christ the Son of God can save.
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Post by Dennis J on Sept 5, 2018 16:03:18 GMT -5
Had my Lord taught only the Father equaled God, I might believe differently, He did not, he taught the Father’s will was supreme even over His own will, while in Human form. Revelation teaches me He became first and last, alpha and omega. I accept that, and believe all should who claim belief in Him.
Oh, I know the “other Gospel,”. Remember the shock in the face of a lifetime believer in Sweden, when relating to him what workers and people like you, RAM, were attempting to promote.. Not only can I see his shocked face, these decades later, but recall his exact words: “ Nej, sager du det?!” Reading what you promote in this forum is just as shocking to me, today.
as you are tracing something so far different than what I have received over the years, it is truly “another Gospel. So much so, we part ways now over it. I have read enough of what you believe to understand it well. For me, my one SPIRIT God as related before, consists of Will, Word, Power, each with their own place, and that of Will (Father) as supreme. Yet, He WAS the One to whom Yahu’shuah ha Meshiach equated Himself. The people of his day understood it, even if many of you do not today.
Do you also proclaim it “blasphemy?” No, don’t answer that!
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Post by nathan on Sept 5, 2018 16:07:20 GMT -5
*** What Ram and the 2x2s don't understand is in Jesus days when Jesus said he is the Son of God means he is equal to God the Father.
That was why the jews were very angry and said Jesus was a blasphemer a man claimed to be God. Jesus was telling them the Truth but they did not believe him. The Jews tried to stone Jesus a few times for being a blasphemer.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 16:09:04 GMT -5
Had my Lord taught only the Father equaled God, I might believe differently, He did not, he taught the Father’s will was supreme even over His own will, while in Human form. Revelation teaches me He became first and last, alpha and omega. I accept that, and believe all should who claim belief in Him.
Oh, I know the “other Gospel,”. Remember the shock in the face of a lifetime believer in Sweden, when relating to him what workers and people like you, RAM, were attempting to promote.. Not only can I see his shocked face, these decades later, but recall his exact words: “ Nej, sager du det?!” Reading what you promote in this forum is just as shocking to me, today.
as you are tracing something so far different than what I have received over the years, it is truly “another Gospel. So much so, we part ways now over it. I have read enough of what you believe to understand it well. For me, my one SPIRIT God as related before, consists of Will, Word, Power, each with their own place, and that of Will (Father) as supreme. Yet, He WAS the One to whom Yahu’shuah ha Meshiach equated Himself. The people of his day understood it, even if many of you do not today.
Do you also proclaim it “blasphemy?” No, don’t answer that! It is one thing to make such declarations, it is quite another to show where my understandng is wrong through scriptural backing. I take comfort in the fact that Jesus was also accused of blasphemy.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 16:10:31 GMT -5
*** What you and the 2x2s don't understand is in Jesus days when Jesus said he is the Son of God means he is equal to God the Father. That was why the jews were very angry and said Jesus was a blasphemer a man claimed to be God. Jesus was telling them the Truth but they did not believe him. The Jews tried to stone Jesus a few times for being a blasphemer. Nathan, Jesus NEVER claimed to be God or even equal to him. That's the truth of the matter. I have already (at least twice) given a clear explanation for your first sentence. If you do not agree with my exlanation then please address it with your own explanation. A big problem with the Jews back then was that they could nether understand nor accept that God had raised up a human being Son, much like moslems today cannot accept that God has a son. It is blasphemy to them.
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Post by snow on Sept 5, 2018 17:03:41 GMT -5
*** What Ram and the 2x2s don't understand is in Jesus days when Jesus said he is the Son of God means he is equal to God the Father. That was why the jews were very angry and said Jesus was a blasphemer a man claimed to be God. Jesus was telling them the Truth but they did not believe him. The Jews tried to stone Jesus a few times for being a blasphemer. Well he also says we are all sons and daughters of God. So I guess we really are all Gods.
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Post by nathan on Sept 5, 2018 17:16:05 GMT -5
*** What you and the 2x2s don't understand is in Jesus days when Jesus said he is the Son of God means he is equal to God the Father. That was why the jews were very angry and said Jesus was a blasphemer a man claimed to be God. Jesus was telling them the Truth but they did not believe him. The Jews tried to stone Jesus a few times for being a blasphemer. Nathan, Jesus NEVER claimed to be God or even equal to him. That's the truth of the matter. I have already (at least twice) given a clear explanation for your first sentence. If you do not agree with my exlanation then please address it with your own explanation. A big problem with the Jews back then was that they could nether understand nor accept that God had raised up a human being Son, much like moslems today cannot accept that God has a son. It is blasphemy to them. ~~ NathanB: Here are scriptures, the apostles of Jesus and what Jesus said about Himself as God and Lord.
Jesus said in 95 A.D. Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” Rev. 11:16-17 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and Worshiped God, saying:
“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. Rev. 21:6,7 He/Christ that sat on the throne said unto me, "It is done, I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end." I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be MY Son."
2) John the apostle wrote in the gospel of John 5:17-18 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
John 10:25-33 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
3) Paul wrote in I Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the Flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, PREACHED to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory. 4) The apostle Thomas said to Jesus after the resurrection, "My Lord and My God" in John 20:24-29. Jesus did NOT say don't call me Lord and God but accepted the title which Thomas called Him. 5) Mary the mother of Jesus said about the unborn Son in Luke 1:46-47 “My soul magnifies the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior."
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Post by nathan on Sept 6, 2018 15:58:01 GMT -5
*** Thanks, Ross for all you have shared. From all the posts that I read from Ram. He believes like many current workers and the friends are believing. The word God refers ONLY to God the Father and NOT the Son. The Father is Eternal but Jesus is begotten only 2000 yrs ago, so he is ONLY the Son of God. What Ram and many current workers and friends don't understand is... Christ is God who is ETERNAL like the Father and Holy Spirit. Christ is the WORD of God who came down from heaven in the person Jesus. That made Jesus is both God and Man. Thanks Nate - there is absolutely no controversy that Christ is the eternal Son who along with the Father and Holy Spirit is God Almighty, YAHWEH and our LORD. Yes, Christ is absolutely the Word of God who came down from Heaven - God the Son who entered humanity around 2000 years ago - and revealed the Father to us and gave us the Holy Spirit who testifies the Word. It is impossible to read the Word of God and dispute the complete divinity and deity of our Lord - yet some choose to do so. They are fixed in their position (like I once was!) and read Scripture through that fixed position. I think they largely misunderstand why Jesus came to earth and focus on His humanity rather than seeing the uniqueness of Christ as God and man who solves sin and death - something that a prophet or messenger could ever do. I always love to look at it again because it reminds of that first time that I discovered who Christ is and it has been so precious to me ever since. I am so glad that Jesus, the man from Heaven (1 Cor 15) was no ordinary man, but a life-giving Spirit who is the source of all life and truth. ** I totally agree with you on this. I just hope and pray the current workers and friends understand that way also. I believe they are coming around eventually, once the realized the EARLY workers believed in the Deity of Christ, Jesus is both God and man. It was Christ the Eternal God/Son begotten in the person of Jesus the man on earth 2000 yrs ago to die for our sins on Calvary Cross.
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