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Post by faune on Dec 11, 2015 2:27:33 GMT -5
Here's an interesting article I found today on the VOTISALIVE informational site. It gives quotations of workers down through the years on different subjects, including the Blood of Christ.** I also couldn't help but notice William Irvine's definition of the GOSPEL ~ "The word 'gospel' means God in a man speaking."
I just thought you might find this insightful to check out for yourself in determining how much would actually qualify under biblical teaching today? Did any of these topics catch your attention? Please leave your comments.
For those who prefer an instant menu on any subject or worker by plugging in their name or topic of interest, you might find this 2x2 informational site of value to you, too?
www.thelyingtruth.info/?f=quotes&id=display Workers Quotes (Pull Down Menus on Subjects and/or Worker)
votisalive.com/content/quotations-2x2-workers-0 Quotations of 2x2 Workers
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Post by faune on Dec 11, 2015 2:30:35 GMT -5
Here's the Table of Contents to the above article to get a better insight into what workers actually believe and teach for most part. ~
Table of Contents - Scroll down to the number of the subject of interest:
(1.).......................Quotes on Allegorization
(2.).......................Quotes on Angels
(3.).......................Quotes on Baptism
(4.).......................Quotes on Beliefs
(5.).......................Quotes on the Bible
(6.).......................Quotes on Birth of Christ or Christmas
(7.).......................Quotes on Blasphemy
(8.).......................Quotes on Blood of Jesus
(9.).......................Quotes on Born Again
(10.)......................Quotes on Charity
(11.)......................Quotes on Christian
(12.)......................Quotes on Convention
(13.)......................Quotes on Creation
(14.)......................Quotes on the Cross
(15.)......................Quotes on Crucifixion of Christ
(16.)......................Quotes on Dispensations
(17.)......................Quotes on Divorce
(18.)......................Quotes on Doctrine
(19.)......................Quotes on Education
(20.)......................Quotes on Elitism
(21.)......................Quotes on Eternal Security
(22.)......................Quotes on Faith in the Workers - NOT Christ or the Scriptures
(23.)......................Quotes on Forgiveness
(24.)......................Quotes on God the Father
(25.)......................Quotes on Gnosticism
(26.)......................Quotes on the Gospel
(27.)......................Quotes on Grace
(28.)......................Quotes on Hair
(29.)......................Quotes on Heaven
(30.)......................Quotes on Hell
(31.)......................Quotes on History
(32.)......................Quotes on Holy Spirit
(33.)......................Quotes on Jesus Christ
(34.)......................Quotes on Jews
(35.)......................Quotes on Kingdom of God
(36.)......................Quotes on Legalism
(37.)......................Quotes on the Millenium
(38.)......................Quotes on the Ministry
(39.)......................Quotes on Miracles
(40.)......................Quotes on the Obedience
(41.)......................Quotes on the Only Way
(42.)......................Quotes on Original Sin
(43.)......................Quotes on Praise
(44.)......................Quotes on Prayer
(45.)......................Quotes on Profess
(46.)......................Quotes on Recreation
(47.)......................Quotes on Repentance
(48.)......................Quotes on Resurrection
(49.)......................Quotes on Return of Christ
(50.)......................Quotes on Sacrifice
(51.)......................Quotes on Salvation
(52.)......................Quotes on Sanctification
(53.)......................Quotes on Satan
(54.)......................Quotes on Scripture
(55.)......................Quotes on Secrecy - Mystery
(56.)......................Quotes on Self-Denial
(57.)......................Quotes on Seminary
(58.)......................Quotes on Sin and Repentance
(59.)......................Quotes on the Spirit
(60.)......................Quotes on Submission
(61.)......................Quotes on Suffering
(62.)......................Quotes on Television
(63.)......................Quotes on The Standard
(64.)......................Quotes on Trinity
(65.)......................Quotes on Twisting Scripture
(66.)......................Quotes on being Willing
(67.)......................Quotes on Workers
(68.)......................Quotes on Working Women
(69.)......................Quotes on Works
(70.)......................Quotes on Young People
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Post by faune on Dec 11, 2015 2:36:08 GMT -5
Here's the list of quotes found under the BLOOD OF CHRIST for starters. I highlighted with a double asterisk (**) those workers whose words are worthy of notation on this subject, including Wm. Irvine and some of the early workers as well as some familiar names today. Did you notice the "exclusive thinking" in their responses? ~
QUOTES ON THE BLOOD OF JESUS
Andrew Abernathy - Saginaw, Oregon Convention - “Do not expect the blood of Christ to cleanse us until we cleanse ourselves. There are four ways in which we can be cleansed. 1. We cleanse ourselves. 2. We are cleansed by the Holy Spirit. 3. We are cleansed by the Word of God. 4. We are cleansed by the precious blood of Jesus. All four are very, very necessary for all of us to make it right to have the right attitude towards sin. **
Rose Ella Behrend - Olympia, WA 1970 - “The price that Jesus paid that He could be one with His Father. This is the price we all must pay.”
John Beth - 1968 - “Often times we come into contact with people in the world today who feel the blood of Christ is going to make atonement for everything. If all Jesus was to do was shed His blood, He could have done that in a very short time; but He had a work to do even before He shed His blood. He spent something like 33 ½ years giving his life to make plain and clear to this world, once and for all, what was Truth, and what was right and acceptable in the sight of God…..His ministry and meetings in the home.” **
William Carroll - Crocknacrieve, Ireland August 12, 1909 - “”The devil has deluded people all over the world into believing they are saved by the Blood when they have no right to even mention His name.” **
Edward Cooney - “To get the blood of Christ you must first pour out your own blood and have it replaced little by little.”
John Forbes - Milltown, WA 1952 - “The blood of Jesus can only cleanse us when we offer our bodies as a whole burnt offering, as we follow the workers in total self denial.” **
Jack Forbes - Milltown Convention 1952 - “What did the priest do with the blood? He poured it out at the base of the altar. The difference between God’s interpretation of the blood and the Pharisee (Christian) interpretation which I was taught is that I thought that we had nothing to do but believe upon Christ hanging on the cross. The older I get the more I value the Blood of Christ, but we shouldn’t fool ourselves because the blood of Jesus can only cleanse us when we offer our bodies as a whole burnt offering.” Romans 12:1-2 *** (Romans 12:1-2 speaks of our bodies as living offerings given in the act of service or worship…not to obtain salvation. Our own bodies cannot atone for anything.)***
William Irvine - “Christ’s blood was no different than the blood of any man!” **
Jack Jackson - Milltown, WA 1924 - “I am very thankful for the blood that brought about the reconciliation and that cleanses me everyday I walk in THE WAY.” **
Rose Johnson - 1988 - “I wouldn’t depend on the blood of Christ to save me. It takes more than that.” **
Anton Koutsourelis, Chelan Convention, WA 1981 - “When we try to obey, then the blood cleanses us. When we stop practicing the Word of God, then the blood of Jesus stops. As we try, the blood makes the cleansing perfect and complete.”
Lyle Van Kuren - “Jesus shed His Blood and suffered for us that we should follow His steps.”
Howard Mooney - Portland, OR - “God doesn’t take anyone into a prepared eternity unless they work to get there. It is the life, not the blood that saves you.” **
Howard Mooney, Bozeman, MT 1970 June 3, 1970 funeral service for Annie Lyness - “The separation comes first, then the washing of the blood of the Lamb. You could not have access to the efficiency of that blood without first of all being willing for the separation.”
Howard Mooney - Salmon Arm Convention 1966 - “It is the life, not the blood that saves you. You have to be worthy of the blood.” **
Walter Pollock - Spokane, WA 1983 - “Trusting in the Blood is the wrong thing. It will only bring disillusionment.” **
Berniece Pieper - 1970 - “Titus 2:14 “He redeemed us from all iniquity…His blood had to flow to redeem us and cleanse us from human thinking.”
Leo Stancliffe - 1981 - “My hope of salvation is the blood of Christ, But I would like to explain to you what it means. The blood of Christ is the ministry without a home and the church in the home. Without the New Testament ministry you don’t have the blood of Christ which includes the church in the home. The forgiveness of sins is a fringe benefit.” **
Leo Stancliff - Special meeting Los Angeles - “There is not one word in the Bible that says we are saved by the Blood of Christ. The reason Christ came to earth was to teach us how to live.” **
Tharold Sylvester - Parma, ID 1960 - “They have got to come in. They have to be inside. When people are brought inside of the family of God they know the shelter and protection of His blood and they can eat of that lamb. They were to eat the lamb with their shoes on their feet and their loins girded and a staff in their hands. God wanted them to be ready and willing to walk. The world today reaches that all that is necessary to save people is that the blood of Christ be shed for them. They take the blood outside, but the blood of Christ only avails for those inside. 1 John 1:7 Will that blood cleanse you if you are not walking in the Light? Three is no evidence in the scripture that it will. It is conditional and that is why the blood of the bullock offering was taken inside but the body was taken outside and burned. Wouldn’t it take a pretty good fire to burn it? Wouldn’t it cast quite a light? We are trying to get people to walk in the light of Christ’s sacrifice. The body Jesus lived and taught and manifested. And when they accept that, the blood of Christ will cleanse them. That is the difference between the false gospel and the true gospel.” ***(cart before the horse)***
Tharold Sylvester - 1960 - “The blood of Christ only avails for those inside the TRUTH.” **
Tharold Sylvester, Devon, MT June 25, 1978 - “The religious world puts emphasis on the death of Christ. God would have allowed Jesus to be slain by Herod as a baby if that were true. The Lord wanted to show us His life, how to live, how to serve, how to minister, how to love, how to invest time.”
Arrchie Turner - Chelan, WA 1961 - “There are three ways to cleanse ourselves. We must cleanse ourselves. The Word cleanses us and then there is the best cleansing of all. The provision made in the precious blood of Christ. This is the heavenly provision made that we might be cleansed from that which we ourselves could never cleanse ourselves from, so that we might be able to stand spotless before the Lord. His blood will cleanse us from all sin.
Warren Wainwright - “We do believe in the Blood of Christ. It has not been talked about enough in the past. The Blood is a part of the gospel but reconciliation is through this ministry. The workers are the mediators.” **
Rhodesian worker - 1927 - “Were not the Apostles saved without the Blood?”
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Post by faune on Dec 11, 2015 2:39:34 GMT -5
Do you remember workers in your past making these remarks? I surely do! These remarks by 2x2 overseers just reminded me of that old saying, "The bigger the lie, the more people believe it!" My favorite ones are highlighted in RED by Jack Carroll and Harry Brownlee, which I have heard repeated many times over the years by the workers at gospel meetings, special meetings, and conventions. " Harry Brownlee - (Gospel Meeting) "If it could be proven to me in black and white that this church was started by a man, I would never preach another word."
Harry Brownlee quote in The Sentinel, Cottage Grove, Oregon 8/16/79 - "We're simply a continuation of the author of Truth."
Jack Carroll, "You can tell whether a church is a false church or not if it was started by a man or woman. We are the only church on earth that was started by Christ."
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Post by faune on Dec 11, 2015 2:50:49 GMT -5
I have to admit, when you check out the Basis of Faith statement on the Faith Mission website, it doesn't require a rocket scientist to determine why William Irvine left and formed his own group. When you compare Irvine's non-Trinitarian beliefs and personal views to the Faith Mission, it's a no brainer!. You will NOT see Wm. Irvine's Living Witness Doctrine displayed here either. The Faith Mission was NOT an exclusive group, but rather an evangelical outreach within the community. However, William Irvine managed to copy many points of the Faith Mission in his experimental creation of the 2x2's back in time. www.fmbc.ac/about/basis-of-faith Faith Mission's Basis of Faith
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Post by faune on Dec 11, 2015 2:55:52 GMT -5
For those who may wonder exactly how the 2x2's differ from basic Christian doctrine today, here's an article that might answer your questions as well as provide early history on their beginnings in Northern Ireland, while Wm. Irvine was still involved with the Faith Mission, starting in 1897. The fact that he broke away from this group due to his disagreement with their teachings, which included the Trinity, should not surprise you. Neither should his condemnation of all outside churches. Any comments? www.tellingthetruth.info/home/factsheet.php 2x2 Fact Sheet
For starters, here's a list of how they differ in their religious beliefs from most churches today. ~
HOW THEY DIFFER FROM ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN BELIEFS
In What They Believe...
That Their Fellowship: • is a direct historical continuation of the New Testament church • is "from the beginning" • is God's ONLY true way; therefore, all other church members, preachers, churches and religions are "false".
That Salvation: • comes by grace AND works (self-effort) • is earned or merited through faithfulness and righteousness • is determined at death • is not possible without being in their fellowship • is conditional upon works and not secure •includes sanctification coming BEFORE justification
That Jesus: • came to be a perfect example, pattern minister or way-shower • life is equal or more important than His death • created a way to Heaven through His death; and a way on earth by his life; which is one and the same as their fellowship.
That Their Ministers: • are God's only true ministers • are the ones through whom one must go (mediators) to be saved • are the supreme authorities in Biblical interpretation • have authority and rule over members • viewpoints are considered as authoritative as the written Word • traditions are equal in importance with God's commands.
HOW THEY DIFFER FROM ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN BELIEFS In What They Do NOT Believe
•in the Triune God •in the deity of Jesus; That Jesus is God the Son •in the deity of the Holy Spirit; God the Holy Spirit •the Holy Spirit permanently indwells every believer •in the finished work of Christ •that Jesus came to be our substitute in His life and death •that man is born in sin •in eternal security •in the priesthood of all believers •conversion can take place through the written Word without human agency •one can know they are saved in this lifetime •salvation can be attained without going through their ministers •in total reliance upon Jesus' shed blood for salvation •that salvation is an unconditionally free gift of God •in salvation solely by grace through faith in Jesus, not of works (i.e. Jesus' Way is their fellowship)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2015 3:02:58 GMT -5
I just knew it - I just had to read ONE quote and it would be here for the exact purposes of MISREPRESENTATION. So I read just one, and here it is Quote - “Trusting in the Blood is the wrong thing. It will only bring disillusionment.” **
Did this guy really say that? Is it what he meant? Is it our position? Probably no, no and no.
I am flattered that we are attacked through misrepresentation.
And we don't hold to a lot of what Irvine said. We leave that for Irvine-groupies.
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Post by faune on Dec 11, 2015 3:09:10 GMT -5
I just knew it - I just had to read ONE quote and it would be here for the exact purposes of MISREPRESENTATION. So I read just one, and here it is Quote - “Trusting in the Blood is the wrong thing. It will only bring disillusionment.” **
Did this guy really say that? Is it what he meant? Is it our position? Probably no, no and no.
I am flattered that we are attacked through misrepresentation.
And we don't hold to a lot of what Irvine said. We leave that for Irvine-groupies. Bert ~ It was a senior worker by the name of Walter Pollock here in the States who said that back in 1983. For your information, these are direct quotes from conventions, special meetings, and gospel meetings. No misrepresentation here ~ except by the workers, as you kindly pointed out. Why don't you check out the Fact Sheet comparing 2x2 Beliefs to other churches, too? Walter Pollock - Spokane, WA 1983 - “Trusting in the Blood is the wrong thing. It will only bring disillusionment.” **
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Post by fred on Dec 11, 2015 3:12:18 GMT -5
It is said that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2015 3:19:37 GMT -5
Faune, I have 1500 quotes from you guys on the TMB, gathered over 15 years. This Fact Sheet proves some interesting things about the mental state of some people here. No?
And we all understand, no-one on the TMB wants to be bothered with quotes about Jesus, the Gospel, the Truth, the Bible or anything like that. Quotes are selected for one purpose - to reflect upon the Workers. This is the only real topic of the TMB - Worker obsession.
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Post by faune on Dec 11, 2015 3:24:20 GMT -5
Here's another quote by Leo Stancliffe in 1981 that pretty much clarifies what the blood of Christ is considered and to whom it is applied. From what I can see here, it doesn't seem he's very informed either on what the Blood of Christ stands for in Christian beliefs or what the "imputed righteousness of Christ" through the blood of Christ means for all true believers? I did a thread on this subject recently, by the way.
Leo Stancliffe - 1981 - “My hope of salvation is the blood of Christ, But I would like to explain to you what it means. The blood of Christ is the ministry without a home and the church in the home. Without the New Testament ministry you don’t have the blood of Christ which includes the church in the home. The forgiveness of sins is a fringe benefit.” **
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2015 3:29:13 GMT -5
No Faune, listen to your religious masters: the blood of Christ is indulgence, wealth, political power, military power, pomp, women, manipulation of the Gospels, even your own star in the Hollywood Walk of Fame.
That is what this Worker probably meant. I cannot say because this quote was put here by people openly unsympathetic to context and Truth.
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Post by maryhig on Dec 11, 2015 3:30:18 GMT -5
Here's the list of quotes found under the BLOOD OF CHRIST for starters. I highlighted with a double asterisk (**) those workers whose words are worthy of notation on this subject, including Wm. Irvine and some of the early workers as well as some familiar names today. Did you notice the "exclusive thinking" in their responses? ~ QUOTES ON THE BLOOD OF JESUS
Andrew Abernathy - Saginaw, Oregon Convention - “Do not expect the blood of Christ to cleanse us until we cleanse ourselves. There are four ways in which we can be cleansed. 1. We cleanse ourselves. 2. We are cleansed by the Holy Spirit. 3. We are cleansed by the Word of God. 4. We are cleansed by the precious blood of Jesus. All four are very, very necessary for all of us to make it right to have the right attitude towards sin. ** Rose Ella Behrend - Olympia, WA 1970 - “The price that Jesus paid that He could be one with His Father. This is the price we all must pay.” John Beth - 1968 - “Often times we come into contact with people in the world today who feel the blood of Christ is going to make atonement for everything. If all Jesus was to do was shed His blood, He could have done that in a very short time; but He had a work to do even before He shed His blood. He spent something like 33 ½ years giving his life to make plain and clear to this world, once and for all, what was Truth, and what was right and acceptable in the sight of God…..His ministry and meetings in the home.” ** William Carroll - Crocknacrieve, Ireland August 12, 1909 - “”The devil has deluded people all over the world into believing they are saved by the Blood when they have no right to even mention His name.” ** Edward Cooney - “To get the blood of Christ you must first pour out your own blood and have it replaced little by little.” John Forbes - Milltown, WA 1952 - “The blood of Jesus can only cleanse us when we offer our bodies as a whole burnt offering, as we follow the workers in total self denial.” ** Jack Forbes - Milltown Convention 1952 - “What did the priest do with the blood? He poured it out at the base of the altar. The difference between God’s interpretation of the blood and the Pharisee (Christian) interpretation which I was taught is that I thought that we had nothing to do but believe upon Christ hanging on the cross. The older I get the more I value the Blood of Christ, but we shouldn’t fool ourselves because the blood of Jesus can only cleanse us when we offer our bodies as a whole burnt offering.” Romans 12:1-2 *** (Romans 12:1-2 speaks of our bodies as living offerings given in the act of service or worship…not to obtain salvation. Our own bodies cannot atone for anything.)*** William Irvine - “Christ’s blood was no different than the blood of any man!” ** Jack Jackson - Milltown, WA 1924 - “I am very thankful for the blood that brought about the reconciliation and that cleanses me everyday I walk in THE WAY.” ** Rose Johnson - 1988 - “I wouldn’t depend on the blood of Christ to save me. It takes more than that.” ** Anton Koutsourelis, Chelan Convention, WA 1981 - “When we try to obey, then the blood cleanses us. When we stop practicing the Word of God, then the blood of Jesus stops. As we try, the blood makes the cleansing perfect and complete.” Lyle Van Kuren - “Jesus shed His Blood and suffered for us that we should follow His steps.” Howard Mooney - Portland, OR - “God doesn’t take anyone into a prepared eternity unless they work to get there. It is the life, not the blood that saves you.” ** Howard Mooney, Bozeman, MT 1970 June 3, 1970 funeral service for Annie Lyness - “The separation comes first, then the washing of the blood of the Lamb. You could not have access to the efficiency of that blood without first of all being willing for the separation.” Howard Mooney - Salmon Arm Convention 1966 - “It is the life, not the blood that saves you. You have to be worthy of the blood.” ** Walter Pollock - Spokane, WA 1983 - “Trusting in the Blood is the wrong thing. It will only bring disillusionment.” ** Berniece Pieper - 1970 - “Titus 2:14 “He redeemed us from all iniquity…His blood had to flow to redeem us and cleanse us from human thinking.” Leo Stancliffe - 1981 - “My hope of salvation is the blood of Christ, But I would like to explain to you what it means. The blood of Christ is the ministry without a home and the church in the home. Without the New Testament ministry you don’t have the blood of Christ which includes the church in the home. The forgiveness of sins is a fringe benefit.” ** Leo Stancliff - Special meeting Los Angeles - “There is not one word in the Bible that says we are saved by the Blood of Christ. The reason Christ came to earth was to teach us how to live.” ** Tharold Sylvester - Parma, ID 1960 - “They have got to come in. They have to be inside. When people are brought inside of the family of God they know the shelter and protection of His blood and they can eat of that lamb. They were to eat the lamb with their shoes on their feet and their loins girded and a staff in their hands. God wanted them to be ready and willing to walk. The world today reaches that all that is necessary to save people is that the blood of Christ be shed for them. They take the blood outside, but the blood of Christ only avails for those inside. 1 John 1:7 Will that blood cleanse you if you are not walking in the Light? Three is no evidence in the scripture that it will. It is conditional and that is why the blood of the bullock offering was taken inside but the body was taken outside and burned. Wouldn’t it take a pretty good fire to burn it? Wouldn’t it cast quite a light? We are trying to get people to walk in the light of Christ’s sacrifice. The body Jesus lived and taught and manifested. And when they accept that, the blood of Christ will cleanse them. That is the difference between the false gospel and the true gospel.” ***(cart before the horse)*** Tharold Sylvester - 1960 - “The blood of Christ only avails for those inside the TRUTH.” ** Tharold Sylvester, Devon, MT June 25, 1978 - “The religious world puts emphasis on the death of Christ. God would have allowed Jesus to be slain by Herod as a baby if that were true. The Lord wanted to show us His life, how to live, how to serve, how to minister, how to love, how to invest time.” Arrchie Turner - Chelan, WA 1961 - “There are three ways to cleanse ourselves. We must cleanse ourselves. The Word cleanses us and then there is the best cleansing of all. The provision made in the precious blood of Christ. This is the heavenly provision made that we might be cleansed from that which we ourselves could never cleanse ourselves from, so that we might be able to stand spotless before the Lord. His blood will cleanse us from all sin. Warren Wainwright - “We do believe in the Blood of Christ. It has not been talked about enough in the past. The Blood is a part of the gospel but reconciliation is through this ministry. The workers are the mediators.” ** Rhodesian worker - 1927 - “Were not the Apostles saved without the Blood?” At last, some sense! The blood is the poured out life! Christ's life poured out for us and into us. And we must live it as Jesus did! Our blood is replaced with that of Christ's and we live it out! We must deny ourselves and turn away from the world just as Jesus did! By his life we are saved! Thanks for posting this, some if these quotes are spot on. And if this is the way the friends believe. Then I'm right there with them!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2015 3:39:04 GMT -5
Whoops, again - I just read ONE quote and it's a classic misrepresentation...
Our Ivine Groupies are at it again.... quote - "William Irvine - “Christ’s blood was no different than the blood of any man!” **
Although Irvine is the spiritual leader of the apostate movement of my church, I must defend him against those who exploit him to their own end. What Irvine would have meant by this, taken in its full context, is that Jesus' blood was like any other man - but its symbolism is profound. Sorry William - they might love you, might need you, but there's no honor amongst thieves.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2015 3:49:05 GMT -5
What the blood of Christ really means to Billy Graham: To enable him to rub shoulders with the famous of Hollywood. He's amongst the very people who's style of living he claimed to be against.
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Post by Mary on Dec 11, 2015 5:21:40 GMT -5
Stop trying to sabotage the thread, Bert.
faune, the link in the first post takes me to a page which says 'site offline'.
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Post by jondough on Dec 11, 2015 9:53:22 GMT -5
I agree with Bert. These quotes are purposely and dishonestly taken out of context.
Example: "Christ blood was no different than the blood of any man". This is true - in context. If he had cut his finger while on earth, he would bleed the same blood you and I would bleed. Its obvious that this is what he meant. Yet the quote dishonestly insinuates differently. I happen to know Walter Pollock and know that he trust in the blood of Christ.
Faun, I would be careful in attaching your name to something pulled from a very vindictive website. If you want to endorse this type of misrepresentation, then so be it.
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Post by CherieKropp on Dec 11, 2015 10:03:32 GMT -5
Stop trying to sabotage the thread, Bert. faune, the link in the first post takes me to a page which says 'site offline'. From the WF&E board: Public notice Tuesday, December 8, 2015 Via is offline due to old age, old software. Sorry but we will not be rebuilding the site on new software again. If you are interested in a particular article formerly featured on VIA you could use our Contact Us provision here to ask about it. We might be able to copy such an article as an attachment on email as a pdf file. Signed: blue NOTE: There is another collection of worker quotes on the TLT website at: www.thelyingtruth.info/?f=quotes&id=display
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2015 10:54:35 GMT -5
We will incorporate these 1500 or so quotes into our Questions & Answers web site. Over the years people have been quite upset with my "Fact Sheet" and "Direct Quotes", but they do document the vicious, shizoid, cruel, unintelligent & hilariously contradictory mindset.
As an aside. I used to host a weekly "Best Quotes" but had to stop it as the fury and personal attacks mounted - despite me using direct quotes and facts. Some can dish it out, but demonstrated they couldn't take it - even if you only used their own words.
The purpose of the Worker quotes is to cast aspersion upon our beliefs by the tactic of misrepresentation. The purpose of my own "Fact Sheets" of "Direct Quotes" is to show the mentality of the people who cast stones at others - that they are not to be taken seriously.
Quotations from former members on different subjects. From my Fact Sheet, direct quotes from the TMB: Small sampling from register.
They can’t agree on anything. They all think the same.
Believe they are the only ones saved. They can’t tell if they are saved.
Obsessed with works Morally lazy.
Live like royalty and never lift a finger Work themselves to the bone for nothing
Most of them have TV’s. Shun those who have TV’s.
Will not survive beyond the next ten years (written 2007) The church is becoming another Megachurch
Workers don’t speak long enough in meetings Workers speak too long in meetings
The Secret Sect book put the kybosh on the "Shores of Galilee" claim. After the Secret Sect published the overseers pushed the "Shores of Galilee" confusion.
Turn Workers graves into shrines. Neglect Workers graves.
Enforce a dress code. Don't bother to enforce a dress code.
Their doctrine varies from one place to the next. ...the system won't change in one area and not the rest of the world.....they all want to be "unified."
Initiated the “quietness program” before the start of meetings in the 1960’s or 1970’s. The quietness before the meetings came from Victorian attitudes towards respect. Invented the quietness program out of reverence because people in meetings in the preceding time zone would, at that moment, be partaking of the emblems.
Early Christians didn't meet in homes Early Christians met in homes for fear of the Jews
Jesus is not mentioned at funerals except in hymns. Don’t talk about the deceased at funerals, only Jesus.
Conventions don’t have proper amenities Some conventions now have elaborate amenities
Conventions have become sacred sites You would think the convention grounds were just farms.
Stand at gospel mission exits to gain handouts Stand at gospel mission exits to turn exes away
They are blinded by their feelings of self importance. Too taken up with personal humility.
Workers don’t care about the problems of the friends Workers spend too much time in the personal lives/business of the friends.
Friends don't visit former members who are dying Friends visit former members in hospital to save their own dirty conscience
Can’t get outsiders to attend missions. They have strict rules to keep outsiders away.
Too organized and too authoritative Can't organize themselves in a fit.
Too much focus upon Paul and not enough on Jesus Too much on Jesus and not enough on God
They dress like they are stuck in the morass of dowdiness. Their girls show bare legs and cleavage which Christians of any denomination should not approve of.
Spit on the divorce and remarriage in every meeting as part of worship, as is officially written into their doctrine. Men Workers like to stay with attractive divorced women.
Workers act as confidants instead of wise counsel or directing them to a marriage counsellor, mental health professional or financial planner. Don’t spend time with the sick
Workers don’t accept alternative sexual ideas The Work is a natural gravitating point for homosexuals
Workers flee from adversity Workers tell about their sacrifices
Worker’s preaching is too simplistic Workers have made the gospel too complicated.
Believe good works don't count towards salvation. They believe they are saved through good works.
Nothing ever changes They change all the time
Workers don’t preach anything outside the bible Workers tell too many personal stories
They can’t live without their Workers Most people enjoy times when the Workers are out of town
They are indoctrinated by the Workers. Most indoctrination is done through mothers rather than Workers.
Men are chauvinistic woman-haters because they offer thanks for emblems Women are spiritually lazy for not offering thanks for emblems
They suffer from loneliness 2x2s have ready made friends without exertion.
They join the fellowship to have happy marriages. They fake happy marriages.
People repeat themselves in meetings. People are pressured to have something new in the meeting.
Young friends marry young to avoid the Work. Young people join the Work to gain Worker approval.
Don’t read their bible. Refuse any reading material other than their bible.
They are not allowed to swim on Saturdays. They are not allowed to swim on Sundays
The “friend" is the attractor, and the "Worker" is the preacher. Friends serve to repulse, rather than attract.
Friends reject the internet They preach on the Internet.
Parents upset about their children going into the Work. Parents pressure children into the Work.
Professing men look at women top down because they are used to long skirts. The men FIRST looked all the way up her pretty short-skirt legs BEFORE they developed a frown of disapproval on their faces.
Friends shun those who leave Friends try to make exes feel guilty by continuing grace towards them.
Worker control keeps the Truth from falling apart Worker control is the reason the Truth is falling apart
Become obese because eating is the one physical pleasure that is allowed by the Leadership. Stay slim to have that certain "professing" image
Irvine was Communistic Irvine put the fear of Communism into people to convert them
Membership started falling in the 1960’s Membership started falling with the internet in the late 1990’s
Meetings don’t mention Jesus All they do is talk about Jesus
Workers allow the singles to source Christian mates from other churches, thus providing new blood for outcross bloodlines. Workers won't allow friends to marry outside the church
They are dying out They pack them in like sardines.
They don't read their bibles. They try to live solely by the bible, and ignore what's been written in their hearts.
The church is becoming more like mainstream churches The church is becoming more like a cult
Gospel mission congregations are shrinking. Some stopped attending Gospel meetings because they are large and lack intimacy.
Are a bunch of dejected, self deprecating people trying to compete for last position. Too taken up with wanting the top position.
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Post by xna on Dec 11, 2015 12:37:18 GMT -5
Stop trying to sabotage the thread, Bert. faune, the link in the first post takes me to a page which says 'site offline'. From the WF&E board: Public notice Tuesday, December 8, 2015 Via is offline due to old age, old software. Sorry but we will not be rebuilding the site on new software again. If you are interested in a particular article formerly featured on VIA you could use our Contact Us provision here to ask about it. We might be able to copy such an article as an attachment on email as a pdf file. Signed: blue NOTE: There is another collection of worker quotes on the TLT website at: www.thelyingtruth.info/?f=quotes&id=displayAll is not lost... 925 URLs have been captured web.archive.org/web/*/http://votisalive.com/content/*This one is very disturbing STOP DADDY...NO MORE....NOT EVER AGAINIf this story is true, then the guy should, at a mimim, be locked up until he is dead.
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Post by faune on Dec 11, 2015 13:44:53 GMT -5
For starters, let's check out this other site for quotations on the workers down through the years on the History of their Church. Good question to ask yourself is who's telling the Truth and who is not telling the Truth ~ much like that old TV sitcom entitled, "Telling the Truth." Some are pretty clever "sledge of hand" to avoid the discussion of this subject, whereas others are outright lies and evidence of deception. Does any quotation on here juggle your memory from meetings past?
www.thelyingtruth.info/?f=quotes&id=display (Pull up History of the Church under drop-down scroll under subject)
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Post by faune on Dec 11, 2015 14:38:01 GMT -5
I agree with Bert. These quotes are purposely and dishonestly taken out of context. Example: "Christ blood was no different than the blood of any man". This is true - in context. If he had cut his finger while on earth, he would bleed the same blood you and I would bleed. Its obvious that this is what he meant. Yet the quote dishonestly insinuates differently. I happen to know Walter Pollock and know that he trust in the blood of Christ. Faun, I would be careful in attaching your name to something pulled from a very vindictive website. If you want to endorse this type of misrepresentation, then so be it.
Jondough ~ Thanks for that information. I also remember Walter Pollock from the past at conventions. However, you can pull up his quotes by themselves on the second website I gave in the opening paragraph. Also, do could consider these statements below MISREPRESENTATIONS of what the workers have repeated over and over to us over the years, knowing well enough they were downright lies and deceitful regarding the history of their church? Surely, one of the early founders of the 2x2's, Jack Carroll, would know he was misrepresenting the truth here by a long stretch of the imagination?
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Post by faune on Dec 11, 2015 14:53:35 GMT -5
Jondough ~ Here are the quotes I pulled up under Walter Pollock's name under the site I quoted in the beginning of this thread:
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Post by jondough on Dec 11, 2015 14:55:42 GMT -5
I agree with Bert. These quotes are purposely and dishonestly taken out of context. Example: "Christ blood was no different than the blood of any man". This is true - in context. If he had cut his finger while on earth, he would bleed the same blood you and I would bleed. Its obvious that this is what he meant. Yet the quote dishonestly insinuates differently. I happen to know Walter Pollock and know that he trust in the blood of Christ. Faun, I would be careful in attaching your name to something pulled from a very vindictive website. If you want to endorse this type of misrepresentation, then so be it.
Jondough ~ Thanks for that information. I also remember Walter Pollock from the past at conventions. However, you can pull up his quotes by themselves on the second website I gave in the opening paragraph. Also, do could consider these statements below MISREPRESENTATIONS of what the workers have repeated over and over to us over the years, knowing well enough they were downright lies and deceitful regarding the history of their church? Surely, one of the early founders of the 2x2's, Jack Carroll, would know he was misrepresenting the truth here by a long stretch of the imagination? I’m not sure how much is a blatant lie, versus the fact that they truly believe it themselves. Nathan would believe that every one of those statements are spot on true. I think he would bet his life on it. I know, Jack Carroll was in the early days so he would have known better. Nathan knows all about those early days. Jack Carroll may be seeing it just how Nathan sees it. Others see it a little different, yet still something that was a result of men that reacted from the prompting of the HS. A movement that was God caused. My only point being that you cannot assume that they just flat out blatantly lied to everyone. I’ve argued this issue with Nathan until my fingers were almost bleeding. He still believes with all his heart that unless you are a part of this one true fellowship, you’re going to Hell in a hand basket. Do you think Nathan is lying? I don’t. I don’t agree with him, but I don’t think he’s lying.
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Post by faune on Dec 11, 2015 15:20:51 GMT -5
Jondough ~ Thanks for that information. I also remember Walter Pollock from the past at conventions. However, you can pull up his quotes by themselves on the second website I gave in the opening paragraph. Also, do could consider these statements below MISREPRESENTATIONS of what the workers have repeated over and over to us over the years, knowing well enough they were downright lies and deceitful regarding the history of their church? Surely, one of the early founders of the 2x2's, Jack Carroll, would know he was misrepresenting the truth here by a long stretch of the imagination? I’m not sure how much is a blatant lie, versus the fact that they truly believe it themselves. Nathan would believe that every one of those statements are spot on true. I think he would bet his life on it. I know, Jack Carroll was in the early days so he would have known better. Nathan knows all about those early days. Jack Carroll may be seeing it just how Nathan sees it. Others see it a little different, yet still something that was a result of men that reacted from the prompting of the HS. A movement that was God caused. My only point being that you cannot assume that they just flat out blatantly lied to everyone. I’ve argued this issue with Nathan until my fingers were almost bleeding. He still believes with all his heart that unless you are a part of this one true fellowship, you’re going to Hell in a hand basket. Do you think Nathan is lying? I don’t. I don’t agree with him, but I don’t think he’s lying. Jondough ~ I believe the term you are looking for here is SELF DECEPTION in response to your above statement? People don't want to admit the truth to themselves, so they create their own "cover story," much like the early workers did to hide the memory of William Irvine. I'm reminded of Paul's word in his letter to Timothy in which he speaks about "deceivers waxing worse, deceiving and being deceived." Perhaps it takes the later part to be good at the deceiving part? George Walker and Jack Carroll were key players in burying Wm. Irvine's history along with the other early workers by 1919. Just check out Cherie's TTT site for an update on this campaign to "bury the truth" about the Perfect Way and its origins? By the way, I started a thread on this topic of self deception just recently? Perhaps you should check it out, especially the featured video? professing.proboards.com/thread/23638/self-deception SELF DECEPTION
www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/11wmibook.php (Check out Erasing the Memory of Wm. Irvine on Scrow Down)
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Post by blandie on Dec 11, 2015 15:28:49 GMT -5
Yeah by the time most of those quotes were said they knew full well that the F&W's really went back to Will I - some were said in response to the Parker article and book and statements and questions by others who knew. Self-deceiving rationalization doesn't mean its not a knowing lie and people make up justifications for lies they tell all the time. Some of the later younger workers might have swallowed the lie whole but there were plenty of irish and scottish and english workers old enough to have been part of the early days of the movement who went around promoting or accepting the 'back to galilee' myth and I remember reading 2 newspaper quotes somewhere that had an overseer saying it went back to Ireland to one reporter and saying 2x2-ism went back to christ to another reporter so that is clear and intentional deception.
I don't know all about the vot site but the quotes don't seem to fall that far from the teaching. Yeah they stand out because so often the doctrines are implied and it sort of goes over peoples heads when listening to a long spiel even when they do get stated outright. The idea that christ's blood and life aren't enough to save is a common theme and so is deriding outsiders who say salvation is thru the blood of jesus and his righteous life - the view of 2x2ism is that theres no salvation except that one becomes worthy of it one's self and to submit to the workers and meetings system and only then MAYBE the blood will have some value in covering shortcomings and christ's righteous life isn't considered as anything but an example and standard to strive to meet. There used to be notes available of the sermons and I expect full sermons containing similar teachings could be found even now online at that site that has tons of sermons - hopefully thats still operational.
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Post by jondough on Dec 11, 2015 15:29:34 GMT -5
I think its kind of like what Bert keeps claiming of some websites. They only tell part of the truth.
I do wish they had told the whole truth from the beginning. Let our history be known from day one. Even today it is really taboo to talk about. I tried with my in-laws over Thanks Giving. My Mo-Inlaw hushed my Dad-in-law up when he started to get into it with me. The get upset pretty quickly when talking about things like this.
Oh well....life goes on....
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Post by faune on Dec 11, 2015 15:44:21 GMT -5
I think its kind of like what Bert keeps claiming of some websites. They only tell part of the truth. I do wish they had told the whole truth from the beginning. Let our history be known from day one. Even today it is really taboo to talk about. I tried with my in-laws over Thanks Giving. My Mo-Inlaw hushed my Dad-in-law up when he started to get into it with me. The get upset pretty quickly when talking about things like this. Oh well....life goes on.... Jondough ~ That's all because of workers' conditioning over the years and their fear of falling out of approval with them to ask questions. However, this is what the Bible says on this topic of self deception which I brought up previously. I added this remark to my other thread by the same title today. I'm reminded here of this verse from 2 Timothy 3:13, along with its cross references, which speaks about self deception within the Bible and how it is manifested. For starters, you have to be deceived to begin with to become a good deceiver. The question then arises, will we be held responsible for not seeking out the truth for ourselves and responding accordingly? What does the Bible say along these lines? biblehub.com/2_timothy/3-13.htm 2 Timothy 3:13 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy%203%3A13&version=AMP;NIV;KJV 2 Timothy 3:13
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