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Post by maryhig on Dec 12, 2015 2:18:50 GMT -5
It is not Nathan who has come up with the succession, Cherie and everyone have been saying all the long that the workers do not have a direct line back to Jesus but that they broke away from the Faith Mission who came from something else, who came from something else etc. down the line. What the workers were saying is that they came from no one, but that they have always been there just like they are today. They broke from nothing. So Nathan gives nothing new. He has done a turn around by now claiming what were a break away which everyone has been saying all the long. It's beginning is no different from any other church, all came down the line from Jesus. The workers claim that the difference between them and other churches is that they have not come down the line via a break away. Maryhig, you are saying all Christians go back to Jesus or to word it better, Christianity goes back to Jesus which is correct. The 2x2s are nothing special in this regard but just one of the 40,00 denominations which Nathan refers to. It's just another denomination. Where Nathan is wrong is that he claims that the 2x2s come down the line from the Waldensians, but the Faith Mission is from mainstream Christianity not the Waldensians. So, anyone with the spirit in their heart, goes back to Jesus. That spirit has been passed from heart to heart since then. And he also entered into William Irvine. So the friends aren't lying or make believers when they say that William Irvine didn't start the way, they are right, Jesus did. The different denominations have all added to the gospel. To suit their beliefs. And if the friends don't go back to Jesus, neither do any other churches either, as they were all started by a man somewhere. Gods people aren't the denomination, they are those of the spirit. Who truly follow Jesus from their heart. Who don't just speak with their mouths. But live it. Who are doers of the word, not hearers only. Those who love God with all their hearts and have laid down their lives for him. Who walk in spirit not after the flesh. They are all Christ's. It's not which church you are in, it's the way you follow. We can't just worship God with our mouths, we must serve him fully and live it. And that means we must also deny ourselves as Jesus taught us to. Which is denying our own sins within. Once we turn from the world, and put our hand to this, Christ by the spirit will give is the strength to overcome. And the spirit will be putting us to death and showing us our sins. These are what we deny.. That's our works. And you will then see Christ in his people, because they will be dead to the world and he will be living through them. These are Gods true people, they are the people following the true way that goes right back to Jesus. Not those of a certain denomination. Philippians 3 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death Paul knew he had to suffer like Christ. And be be conformable to his death. Which is death do self will. Paul said I die daily. And if we truly follow Jesus, will we be dying daily, because we are Gods children, and belong to Christ and he by the spirit, will be putting us to death.
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Post by faune on Dec 12, 2015 2:26:19 GMT -5
It is not Nathan who has come up with the succession, Cherie and everyone have been saying all the long that the workers do not have a direct line back to Jesus but that they broke away from the Faith Mission who came from something else, who came from something else etc. down the line. What the workers were saying is that they came from no one, but that they have always been there just like they are today. They broke from nothing. So Nathan gives nothing new. He has done a turn around by now claiming what were a break away which everyone has been saying all the long. It's beginning is no different from any other church, all came down the line from Jesus. The workers claim that the difference between them and other churches is that they have not come down the line via a break away. Maryhig, you are saying all Christians go back to Jesus or to word it better, Christianity goes back to Jesus which is correct. The 2x2s are nothing special in this regard but just one of the 40,00 denominations which Nathan refers to. It's just another denomination. Where Nathan is wrong is that he claims that the 2x2s come down the line from the Waldensians, but the Faith Mission is from mainstream Christianity not the Waldensians. Mary ~ I agree completely with everything you said above! Great post and summation of the historical events!
Earlier I recommended to Nathan to read the book, "Reinventing the Truth ~ Historical Claims of One of the World's Largest Nameless Sects." by Kevin Daniel. I would especially stress Chapter 3, 4, and 5 in regards to his research of the same in regards to historical claims by Dr. Jaenen. He might be surprised by what he finds in these chapters? Hopefully, he will take this into consideration in relation to his own claims regarding apostolic succession of these different groups, none of which were directly related to the 2x2's. Dr. Jaenen tentatively introduces the concept that the 2x2's itinerant ministry may have gone underground and was only restored in the late 19th century by William Irvine (1897), who God raised up to carry on his 2x2 ministry originally established during the first century.
Unfortunately, this was never Jesus' purpose to create a pattern ministry of itinerant ministers going out in pairs and having meetings in homes. This was William Irvine's experimental brain child and his private interpretation of the gospel message linked to Matthw 10, which differed greatly from basic Christian teaching taught in all the churches in his own day.
In addition, his premise that only the workers are God's anointed servants within the world is still being taught along with all the EXCLUSIVITY that goes along with it, known as the Living Witness Doctrine.
Actually, anybody can read these three chapters of this book on Google's free on-line books at the link below. I would highly recommend this book for anybody really curious about learning more about these refuted 2x2 historical claims.
books.google.com/books?id=7y04X8o6JOIC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false Reinventing the Truth (Free Google book on-line)
thelibertyconnection.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=256:living-witness-doctrine-who-was-first&catid=21:history&Itemid=32
What is the Living Witness Doctrine?
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Post by fred on Dec 12, 2015 2:31:32 GMT -5
As far as William Irvine is concerned I don't care one whit, nor do I regularly reference his name - he is not important to me. However, I do recognise that he, along with several others was the person most prominent in the formation of the group with whom I now fellowship. When people begin to lie about this verifiable history, deny that it happened or prevaricate about the obvious, it does become somewhat of a concern. I understand what you mean, but, I think if I'm right, I'm not great on history it was Constantine who started the catholic church, Luther the protestant, etc. But don't they all say they are the church of Christ? They don't say they go back to Luther, or Constantine. They say they go back to Christ. And I, like the friends don't say I go back to Edward or William, for us, Edward carried the word and passed it on. But I believe it goes back to Christ! That's all I mean, but I also believe that Gods people are everywhere. Not in one church but in one way. I hope I've explained myself, it's hard in writing - Thank you for your reply maryhig. Yes it all goes back to Christ, that is why we are called Christians - it is his teachings we all try to follow. Many people insist that they follow a particular manner in doing this, and it is usually a manner drafted by a certain man(or woman). The friends and workers worship in a manner and practice drafted by Irvine, Cooney and others. Cooney did not agree with the way things were evolving in this group and so left, and he and a remnant continued to worship in his preferred manner. I gather that you follow this way. What I am saying then is, yes we are all trying to follow Christ, but the manner in which we do has been influenced by (a) man.
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Post by blandie on Dec 12, 2015 2:47:55 GMT -5
It is not Nathan who has come up with the succession, Cherie and everyone have been saying all the long that the workers do not have a direct line back to Jesus but that they broke away from the Faith Mission who came from something else, who came from something else etc. down the line. What the workers were saying is that they came from no one, but that they have always been there just like they are today. They broke from nothing. So Nathan gives nothing new. He has done a turn around by now claiming what were a break away which everyone has been saying all the long. It's beginning is no different from any other church, all came down the line from Jesus. The workers claim that the difference between them and other churches is that they have not come down the line via a break away. Maryhig, you are saying all Christians go back to Jesus or to word it better, Christianity goes back to Jesus which is correct. The 2x2s are nothing special in this regard but just one of the 40,00 denominations which Nathan refers to. It's just another denomination. Where Nathan is wrong is that he claims that the 2x2s come down the line from the Waldensians, but the Faith Mission is from mainstream Christianity not the Waldensians. Yeah thats what seems to be happening. In Nathan's mind theres been no deception about the origins and like others who hold to that he has to rationalize a way to explain that the guy who started 2x2-ism somehow wasn't the first and wasn't the guy who came up with it and shepherded it through its infancy. The workers have used linguistic dissimulation to try and have it both ways - support the lie that it goes direct back to galilee with a succession of apostles as living witnesses - which most know is completely unreal fantasy that has been spread - even if some rationalize that they are telling the truth by at the same time relying on a claim any church or believer can make that christianity goes back to christ. No one's talking about christianity going back to christ - no one disagrees with that - but 2x2-ism as a religious body with its idiosyncrasies and unique organization and traditions and doctrines/teachings definitely goes back only to Will I. just as much as Campbells Soup goes back only to Joe Campbell and not to jacob making a pot of soup for esau or whoever first heated up a pot of soup. The story thats been put out is that 2x2-ism itself was itself directly instituted by christ on the shores of galilee and thats not what the facts show - and even Nathan's line of succession thru groups that today's workers would reject as being true churches doesn't hold water because they aren't the F&W system and just picking out a few characteristics and ignoring the major differences doesn't make a valid line of succession. So not only does that line of thinking have to explain away the role of Will I. in creating the system - it also has to rationalize away or ignore big differences within the claimed seamless line of succession. I don't think quoting people who participated in - wittingly or not - the deception and misdirection helps prove that the facts about the startup beginning with Will I. are wrong - it just is more fuzzy misdirection continuing the deception and problem.
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Post by faune on Dec 12, 2015 3:09:57 GMT -5
It is not Nathan who has come up with the succession, Cherie and everyone have been saying all the long that the workers do not have a direct line back to Jesus but that they broke away from the Faith Mission who came from something else, who came from something else etc. down the line. What the workers were saying is that they came from no one, but that they have always been there just like they are today. They broke from nothing. So Nathan gives nothing new. He has done a turn around by now claiming what were a break away which everyone has been saying all the long. It's beginning is no different from any other church, all came down the line from Jesus. The workers claim that the difference between them and other churches is that they have not come down the line via a break away. Maryhig, you are saying all Christians go back to Jesus or to word it better, Christianity goes back to Jesus which is correct. The 2x2s are nothing special in this regard but just one of the 40,00 denominations which Nathan refers to. It's just another denomination. Where Nathan is wrong is that he claims that the 2x2s come down the line from the Waldensians, but the Faith Mission is from mainstream Christianity not the Waldensians. Yeah thats what seems to be happening. In Nathan's mind theres been no deception about the origins and like others who hold to that he has to rationalize a way to explain that the guy who started 2x2-ism somehow wasn't the first and wasn't the guy who came up with it and shepherded it through its infancy. The workers have used linguistic dissimulation to try and have it both ways - support the lie that it goes direct back to galilee with a succession of apostles as living witnesses - which most know is completely unreal fantasy that has been spread - even if some rationalize that they are telling the truth by at the same time relying on a claim any church or believer can make that christianity goes back to christ. No one's talking about christianity going back to christ - no one disagrees with that - but 2x2-ism as a religious body with its idiosyncrasies and unique organization and traditions and doctrines/teachings definitely goes back only to Will I. just as much as Campbells Soup goes back only to Joe Campbell and not to jacob making a pot of soup for esau or whoever first heated up a pot of soup. The story thats been put out is that 2x2-ism itself was itself directly instituted by christ on the shores of galilee and thats not what the facts show - and even Nathan's line of succession thru groups that wouldn't be accepted as true churches today doesn't hold water because they aren't the F&W system and just picking out a few characteristics and ignoring the major differences doesn't make a valid line of succession. I don't think quoting people who participated in - wittingly or not - the deception and misdirection helps prove that the facts about the startup beginning with Will I. are wrong - it just is more fuzzy misdirection continuing the deception and problem. Blandie ~ You and Mary summed things up quite well regarding these historical claims by certain 2x2's who refuse to check out the evidence of record refuting the same. I shared the same views in my earlier post shown below.
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Post by Mary on Dec 12, 2015 3:33:50 GMT -5
Maryhig, The 2x2s are misleading people when they say unlike other churches they were not started by a man/men when they were started by a man the same as other churches. If they have a direct line back to Jesus so do other churches. The reason many of our ancestors professed was because they were told that this was the true church from Jesus unlike other churches that were started by a man. The workers claim the only direct line back to Jesus both physically and spiritually.
The 2x2s have added to the gospel. They say that a person has to profess through one of their workers in one of their meetings and get baptised by a worker in order to be 'saved'.
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Post by jondough on Dec 12, 2015 9:21:51 GMT -5
I see a little dishonesty on this board when it comes to admitting what the Workers and Friends once led us to believe, and what many still think. That is, we were the "Truth" as it is now, with "Workers" and exclusiveness, all the way back to the Apostles. These people would not believe that we actually broke off from a denomination called the "Faith Mission". Especially given that the Faith Mission still exist today.
Lets just take Nathan's explanation for example, and assume it is exactly what happened. He now admits that we are a break-away from Faith Mission via William Irvine. So since this is now been proven, the dishonesty I see is the "oh yeah....thats what we've been saying all along". "It was of God". "It DID go back to the Apostles - through the Faith Mission". "They were a part of the succession". "OOOOOH.....YOU THOUGHT we meant......".
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Post by jondough on Dec 12, 2015 9:34:21 GMT -5
BTW, I'm not suggesting that Nathan did the research and found our roots.
Yes, Cherie did a great job in this research....
When i refer to Nathan's version, what I mean is how he has interpreted our history that Cherie has uncovered. That during the time the Faith Mission was the link, that it was the "one true way" - that was "partly right" (his words).......and so on, back to the Apostles.
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Post by xna on Dec 12, 2015 10:25:14 GMT -5
I see a little dishonesty on this board when it comes to admitting what the Workers and Friends once led us to believe, and what many still think. That is, we were the "Truth" as it is now, with "Workers" and exclusiveness, all the way back to the Apostles. These people would not believe that we actually broke off from a denomination called the "Faith Mission". Especially given that the Faith Mission still exist today. Lets just take Nathan's explanation for example, and assume it is exactly what happened. He now admits that we are a break-away from Faith Mission via William Irvine. So since this is now been proven, the dishonesty I see is the "oh yeah....thats what we've been saying all along". "It was of God". "It DID go back to the Apostles - through the Faith Mission". "They were a part of the succession". "OOOOOH.....YOU THOUGHT we meant......". Some see this same pattern in much of religions. The first retconning of superheroes.
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Post by jondough on Dec 12, 2015 10:27:40 GMT -5
Its kind of ironic. The same people that criticize Cherie all the time, use her research extensively for all their takes and explanations. They tell us how it all happened....using her research....but do nothing but criticize her. Never acknowledging the great and thorough job she spent years on, getting it accurate.
Basically, they sit on their chair in their living room, and revise her years of research, and hard work, to fit their version.
Maybe some of you, and you know who you are, could just take a sec and thank her every once in a while. Its the least you could do. If you cant find it in your stomach to do that, then at least acknoledge the effort and time that she spent on the stuff that you use to post here. Some of you even use her research for your own web site.
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Post by faune on Dec 12, 2015 10:42:52 GMT -5
~~~ Testimonies of workers from different parts of the world before they heard or read of John Long's (1898 worker) Journal of how the early workers began/continuing following Jesus apostolic ministry and fellowship.... By Revelation they said: To Impartial Reporter 10/7/1909 1)~~~ Edward Cooney said, "We did NOT start this Jesus Way...it was started and planned by God before we were ever thought of, and we are NOT starting a new religion. We are earnestly contending for the faith once delivered to the Saints and trying to separate it from the traditions of men." 2) Edward Cooney: There was in the days gone by, a certain man called William Irvine, upon whose heart Gods spirit worked to raise him up like the judges of old, to lead back those in Christendom to the truth as it is in Jesus. (Reprinted from Edward Cooney's Testimony reprinted in Selected Letters Hymns and Poems of Edward Cooney 1867-1960, by Patricia Roberts, Pages 43-45) 3)~~ Edward Cooney: Undoubtedly God called us and separated us to be His people in the beginning; and most prominent and most used in this calling out a people for God's name was William Irvine who, at the time of his being sent forth to be a prophet, saw more clearly than any of us that the revelation of the Father to each individual child of His is the Rock alone on which Jesus Christ would build his church, and that the gates of Hades should not prevail against it. (Letter by Edward Cooney to My dear Sister dated May, 1930 Reprinted from: Selected Letters, Hymns, and Poems of Edward Cooney 1867- 1960 by Patricia Roberts) 4)~~ Ed Cooney stated in his letter to Alice Flett: "I travelled for my father's business and preached inside and outside, as occasion offered, with some persecution. Whilst doing so, I met William Irvine through whom George Walker, Jack Carroll, William Carroll, Willie Gill and a number of the present leaders professed, including James Jardine. William Irvine and I were drawn together as brothers in Christ, each of us claiming liberty to follow Jesus as we received progressive light from God by the Spirit... ~~ "We believe we (the apostles) have existed since Jesus sent forth the 70 disciples Two and Two." Richard Sullivan.~~ "It's from the beginning, planned in God's mind before creation. Walter Nelson, 1967~~ "Was William Irvine the first in the way?" "I think William was amongst the first... I feel that God has had a Way on the earth since before the foundation of the earth... I don't believe William Irvine is the beginner of it." Bea Mokini, 1985 ~~ In answer to your question, "Where did this religion actually begin?" Was it with Jesus as we have been told in Gospel Meetings, or by a man name William Irvine in 1897? We believe Hebrews 12:2 "Looking to Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith." I would like to give you some references that mean a lot to me as we carry the Gospel to people and point them to something that is from the beginning and not to something started by MAN. In John 17:5 Jesus spoke of the glory which He had with the Father before the world was, and in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word" etc. So, there is NO date for the starting, as it was with the Heavenly Father before the world. Why would we want something started by a Man when we have in the scripture something that is from the beginning and the scripture to back it up? Doris B. letter, 1989~~ "I never met William Irvine at any time and believe he was used of God, but was never the origin of what we believe. I understand he became too big in himself and left the fellowship we love. Workers I know and respect preach only what Jesus lived and taught with no mention at all of William Irvine, or any other man and give only real appreciation for those who retell in our days things taught in Jesus' day. This faith began in New Testament days, neither in Ireland nor in the U.K. Roddy M. (Scotland Worker) letter dated 6/1/1995~~ "You sound rather disturbed about something to do with a Man Called William Irvine. I do believe he served God in sincerity and truth at one time. What happened I've never asked because our life doesn't really revolve around any person, but around Jesus? We feel sad at heart if any LOSE out because it's eternal life that is our goal, and we are eager to reach that Goal and help others to reach it too. Even though David knew all the "ins and outs" of Saul, he never once tried to expose him---even if we knew all about others (which I don't and never likely want to) I don't think it would be kind to keep talking. Of course the soul (William) died in 1948 You mentioned he is gone and the Judge of all the earth will do right by all, but I am sure your faith isn't built on the rights and wrongs of men, but the simple truth in Jesus. We heard at convention about FAITH--God's word--God said it, we believe it and that settles it--gives us a wonderful peace. We rest our hope on what God has said--What God pointed us to. This settles it once and for all and it brings a great peace. We feel so privileged to know and see what has been revealed to us and this revelation is a rock to us that the very gates of hell Cannot Prevail against. Keep your faith strong in the man Christ Jesus. Tests will come but we must hold fast to what we have attained." Helen P. (Scotland worker) 6/15/1995~~ "William Irvine Did Not start this Church, it is from beginning, and the Way was just made evidence to him, then." Karen Tenniswood, 1996~~ From a Letter: Then we are sometimes asked, "Why don't you speak of older ministers of the faith of Jesus in past generations?" God's answer to this question is found in II Cor. 4:5 "For we preach Not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your servants for Jesus sake." So, it is NOT the will of God for us to be preaching about ministers of past generations. We preach CHRIST." Dan Hilton, 1984~~~ "However, regardless of a written record being preserved, truth is truth. If nobody believes it and or ... if everybody believes it. Whether or not a thing is believed in has nothing to do with its correctness. To use parable illustration, the sun rises in the East and sets in the West. That is an established fact of existence. Whether or not people believe the sun rises in the East and sets in the West... in no way changes that established fact of reality... Everybody could believe the sun rises in the West and sets in the East, but this would not make it true. For anyone to say that what the Bible teaches was started at some certain year since the first century is pitiful Ignorance, and closing the eyes to established facts and truths. The teachings of the New Testament were started in the first century when God's dear Son was here on the earth. That is those truths were established in a group of believers then. But that is NOT where it started. What God gave through his son was planned before the world began. Matt. 15: 34-35; John 17:24; Acts 3: 20-21; Rom 16: 25-26; I Cor. 2:7; Eph 1:4-5; Titus 1: 2; I Peter 1:18-21 "These truths make very clear that what God... The Son of God... and the Holy Spirit believe in, and what God's true ministers and Christians believed in, was planned in the heart and mind of God before the world began, and we believe the same today. So, it is 100% false for anyone to say that what we Believe was started in some recent year." Dan Hilton, Letter 11/21/89~~ "We are not following some way founded in the early1900s, but it goes back to Christ. Jesus Himself set it up. Whether it was planted in the 1st Century, the 10th century or the 2Oth century, the message is the same, it produces the same thing." Tharold Sylvester 11/16/83~~ "We are simply a continuation of the Author of Truth." Harry Brownlee, 8/16/79 ~~ "We are often asked who started this Church?" Heb. 12:2 "Looking unto Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith." Jesus gave us God's eternal plan of Salvation in its fullness. He is both the Author and Finisher. The way is like a seed, like the wheat seed. It was created at the beginning of the world. Dan Hilton. 1/1/84 Burlington, WA~~ "Look at it like this. I have NO idea who my great-great-grandfather was, but I know that he had to exist, because here I am today. We know how life begets life and it is the same spiritually. I do not believe in some form of Apostolic succession that would be like the Catholic Church. People might build their faith on that, but I would like to believe that the friends, and ministry did come down through history that way." Eldon K. 6/4/95~~ "Often we are asked who started our fellowship, our doctrine, ministry? We are NOT interested in tracing personalities. Some say this was started with Jesus, but it began with God the Father, He gave Jesus the Gospel, the Doctrine. As Thou has sent Me so have I sent them--the same way--God started it all, its the foundation on which we stand." Ken Pagington 9/22/1996. ~~ "Don't you believe that something so Precious to God could be Preserved and passed through his Beloved mouthpieces over any age and time? God's way is eternal!" Cheryl L.~~ "It's from the beginning, planned in God's mind before creation." (Walter Nelson, Post Falls, ID Conv., 1967) "We go back to the beginning." (Calvin Casselman, Boring OR Convention, 1988)~~ "It started in Heaven." (Clarence Anderson, Pukekohe, NZ Convention, 1986) ~~ "I consider that we are the most privileged people in all the world for the simple reason that what we believe and stand for and teach doesn't have its origin with man. You don't go back into the history of the world to find it. You have to go back to the beginning and to God. God had this plan in his heart and mind before the foundation of the world was laid. This way of service is from the beginning." (Arthur Boyce, Silverdale, B.C. Convention, 1961). ~~ "If we have a founder, then we don't go back to the beginning. If we teach that which is from the beginning, then what we have is from the beginning, and what we have is founded on what was from the beginning." (Leo Stancliff, 1/9/97 funeral for Ron Gustason, CA ) ~~ "For anyone to say that What The Bible Teaches was started at some certain year since the first century is pitiful ignorance, and closing the eyes to established facts and truths. The teachings of the New Testament were started in the first century when God's dear Son was here on earth; that is, those truths were established in a group of believers then. But that is not where it started. What was given by God through his Son was planned before the world began. See Matt 15:34-35, John 17:24, Acts 3:20-21, Rom. 16:25-26, 1 Cor 2:7, Eph 1:4-5, II Tim. 1: Titus 1:2, 1 Peter 1:18-21. These truths make very clear that what God...the Son of God...and the Holy Spirit believe in, and what God's true ministers and Christians believed in, was planned in the heart and mind of God before the world began, and we believe the same today. So it is 100% false for anyone to say that what we believe was started in some recent year." (Letter by Dan Hilton dated 11/21/89) ~~~ "I tell people that WHAT WE HAVE is 'from the beginning' ... because IT originated in the heart of God and was revealed by Jesus.... " (letter by Muriel Hendrickson, 1997) Nathan ~ Thank you for providing a paper trail as to the storyline purported by workers down through the years when questioned about their group's real beginnings. However, with the availability of Internet in most of the world, I reckon it would be hard to save face with all the source material on the 2x2's at the click of a mouse? So, again I would encourage you to check out the book I recommended earlier by Kevin Daniel entitled, "Reinventing the Truth," which is also offered as a free Google book on line. You might just be surprised by what you learn about 2x2 historical claims as a result?
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Post by jondough on Dec 12, 2015 10:55:49 GMT -5
Its kind of ironic. The same people that criticize Cherie all the time, use her research extensively for all their takes and explanations. They tell us how it all happened....using her research....but do nothing but criticize her. Never acknowledging the great and thorough job she spent years on, getting it accurate. Basically, they sit on their chair in their living room, and revise her years of research, and hard work, to fit their version. Maybe some of you, and you know who you are, could just take a sec and thank her every once in a while. Its the least you could do. If you cant find it in your stomach to do that, then at least acknowledge the effort and time that she spent on the stuff that you use to post here, and even on your own web sites. I hope you're not pointing your finger at me, JD. I don't know how long you have been reading the TMB, I have many times in the past praise for all the hard work, Cherie K. has done on preserving the historical documents of our 2x2 fellowship. I even praise Cherie K. hard work on my own website. However, Cherie has turned our history for her own agenda... William Irvine the founder of the 2x2 1897 from start to finish... MANY friends around the world have left our fellowship because of her TTT Website. Maybe Cherie K. is helping to fulfill the parable of the 10 virgins. The 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins and II Thess 2:1-12 before Jesus returns to take the 5 wise virgins and leave the 5 foolish virgins behind.Thats good Nathan. I just have never seen it. All I see is critisizing from everyone. Because someone tells the history of your fellowship, you can hardly blame them for anyone leaving.
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Post by xna on Dec 12, 2015 11:12:11 GMT -5
One of the problems with the trinity is, Jesus was gods greatest sacrifice to mankind. John 3:16; "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
When you "give up" something, or "sacrifice at thing" you do without. So if god, father, and holy ghost are ONE, they can not be separated, so what then was given up by Jesus coming to earth?
Then consider if the three were before creations and eternal, just how long would a 30 earth year sacrifice really be? Compared to our life span, 30 earth years to an immortal would be less than a blink of an eye!
Now if Jesus was also god, he would have known he would be coming to earth, and for him it would be like a very short blink of the eye. He would not have been separated from the holy ghost and god, so how is that a great sacrifice by god?
It doesn't make sense to me.
The story would make more sense if Jesus was just a man, not a god, not eternal, and did not know what would happen when he died. Then he would be like the many millions who have given their life for a cause.
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Post by faune on Dec 12, 2015 11:17:03 GMT -5
BTW, I'm not suggesting that Nathan did the research and found our roots. Yes, Cherie did a great job in this research.... When i refer to Nathan's version, what I mean is how he has interpreted our history that Cherie has uncovered. That during the time the Faith Mission was the link, that it was the "one true way" - that was "partly right" (his words).......and so on, back to the Apostles. Cherie K. own belief on TTT website, William Irvine is the founder of the 2x2 in 1897. Her main focus that William Irvine started this 2x2 workers church in 1897 so is ONLY over 100 yrs! Cherie K. does NOT give any information of different groups had followed Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry/fellowship before William Irvine tried in 1901. She is NOT interested in going beyond the Faith Mission group. When the readers get to see the whole picture from the 1st century to the Faith Mission in 1886 then they will understand William Irvine and the early workers just want to continue what Jesus has lived and taught in the New Testament. ~~ 1) Cherie Kroop: Why do some attempt to continue the NT "pattern" ministry/church when Jesus didn't command it? ~~ NathanB: Cherie, Jesus has commanded the Father's New Testament apostolic ministry/church to continue till He comes again according to His own words (Matthew 28; Mathew 24:14; Acts 1:8; Matthew 24:27-31)2) Cherie K. wrote: What virtue or gain or blessing is there in attempting to follow the "NT ministry" the most closely of all churches and ministers--when Jesus didn't command to do so? ~~ NathanB: If Jesus didn't command to follow the New Testament ministry/church, then WHY? before He sent out the 12 and 70 apostles in Matthew 10 and Luke 10, he asked them to PRAY to the Father that He'd sent more laborers/workers into his harvest. Well, God the Father wanted His Son Jesus to follow the New Testament Itinerant ministry and sent forth His apostles the same manner.... "As my Father has sent me, even so send I you." When we follow the same recipe then we will get the same result.3) Cherie K wrote: Is this really what Jesus wants to be done universally for all time? Or was it a specific command for a specific mission for a specific time? ~~ NathanB: It has to be done and follow as Universal and for ALL time, and many generations to come, until Jesus returns (Matthew 24:29-31) to reign on the earth 1000 yrs with his apostles and saints.4) Cherie K. wrote: Exactly when did the New Covenant begin? When "the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom"? at Pentecost? when Jesus ascended? ~~ NathanB: The New Testament covenant began when Jesus started his ministry at the age of 30 and it was sealed with his blood after the death/on Calvary's of the testator. The testator's will (New Testament) goes into effect AFTER he died.What Hat understanding is clearer than Cherie K. when he posted this a few years ago.Interestingly, in this book there is a picture of all the Faith Mission pilgrims as of 1892, standing in four rows like a worker picture, and at their feet is a banner that says "holiness to the Lord". The Holiness Movement is simply the idea that you are redeemed when you are born again in Christ, but you are not sanctified at that point; you are not yet holy. Some denominations within the Holiness Movement speak of a second rebirth when you are sanctified, but I believe that with the friends you spend your life working toward being sanctified. This idea was quite common in Methodist circles of the late 19th century. William Irvine was steeped in it, because he attended Keswick Convention which is seen as a center of the Holiness Movement. Anyway, the pedigree is actually from the Moravian Church which dates back to 1457. John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, but who was actually an Anglican, was the first to spread the Holiness doctrine widely in his sermons and later his book titled "Christian Perfection". "Christian Perfection" is the same idea as Holiness, that you are "born again" once but then become perfected in Christ over time. I have read Wesley's book, but his distinction between perfected Christians who don't sin, but do make mistakes, versus unperfected Christians who aren't quite there yet, is quite a fine line if you ask me. But the essential idea of spiritual progress throughout life is a compelling one, all the same. So, this is from wiki - It was on the voyage to the colonies that the Wesleys first came into contact with Moravian settlers. Wesley was influenced by their deep faith and spirituality rooted in pietism. At one point in the voyage a storm came up and broke the mast off the ship. While the English panicked, the Moravians calmly sang hymns and prayed. This experience led Wesley to believe that the Moravians possessed an inner strength which he lacked.[8] The deeply personal religion that the Moravian pietists practiced heavily influenced Wesley's theology of Methodism.[9] And then the Moravian church was an offshoot of Catholicism, but almost a pre-Reformation one. However, some people believe the Moravian church, I'll quote wiki, "is reputed to have received the Apostolic Succession through the Waldensian Church, but the historicity of this is disputed." I personally doubt that, but most ideas in Christianity, like that of Holiness, have very deep roots. Anyway, potentially the lineage is: Paul the apostle-> Vaudois/Waldensian -> Moravian -> Wesley -> Holiness -> Faith Mission -> Friends & workers I would have voted for 1897 William Irvine founder date UNTIL a) I read John Long's journal and b) learned more on the socio-historical background that informed the decision making of Irvine and the other preachers. That background included information on the Faith Mission, the Awakening in Scotland, various independent preaching movements, as well as the Holiness doctrine. Before that I couldn't see the forest for the trees. Now I see Irvine, Long and the other first workers as having separated from a much larger preaching movement that was going on in Ireland and Scotland in the late 19th century, one which culminated in schism because the main denominations would not accept the Holiness doctrine. The f&w were not the only ones going through this transformation. Here is a list of other Holiness denominations in the UK and America that began during or around that time. As a "late date" fan at the present time, that would certainly make Irvine the first leader/ overseer/ head worker of the movement. Founder? I've just never liked that word in connection with the f&w movement. Nathan's selection of posts in the early part of this thread shed quite a bit of light on the early days of the movement, IMO. Now, for Nathan's benefit, Holiness began with John Wesley's work and preaching on Christian Perfection, and Wesley's ideas in that area were strongly influenced in that area by the Moravian church which is a movement that was influenced by the Waldensians/ Vaudois. Nathan ~ According to WhatHat description of the historical lineage from your site, John Wesley played an integral part in the transition from the Apostle Paul to the Friends and Workers. However, surely you must be aware of Wm. Irvine's opinion regarding John Wesley, which he expounded upon in one of their early conventions in which he asked all the members to stand up who agreed with him that John Wesley was in Hell along with all the rest of the clergy associated with him? This can be found in John Long's Journal and was associated with his own excommunication for not supporting such a notion. Also, you claim that Wm. Irvine broke away from the Faith Mission, when in actuality he was fired or dismissed in January 1901, although he had continued to accept funding from them while promoting his own Matthew 10 version of the gospel message from August 1897 to January 1901 in northern Ireland, while still a member of the Faith Mission. Cherie has well documented all these historical documents, including this incident at one of their early conventions in 1907. I feel she has more than exceeded herself in preserving the "real history" of the 2x2's. If this caused a number of folks to depart the faith as result. Perhaps it's because the workers CHOSE to lie and mislead the people to cover-up their paper trail by creating another storyline to conceal their actual founder, Wm. Irvine, CSA abuse, and other scandals? Just some food for thought this morning! www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/07wmibook.php Chapter 7 ~ John Long's Account of his Excommunication
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Post by faune on Dec 12, 2015 11:36:14 GMT -5
Nathan ~ Here is the excerpt from John Long's Journal relating to his excommunication in 1907 and the reasons given for it from Chapter 7 of Cherie's book on TTT.
www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/07wmibook.php Chapter 7 ~ 1907, June ~ Public Excommunication of John Long
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Post by xna on Dec 12, 2015 11:56:40 GMT -5
One of the problems with the trinity is, Jesus was gods greatest sacrifice to mankind. John 3:16; "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
When you "give up" something, or "sacrifice at thing" you do without. So if god, father, and holy ghost are ONE, they can not be separated, so what then was given up by Jesus coming to earth? Then consider if the three were before creations and eternal, just how long would a 30 earth year sacrifice really be? Compared to our life span, 30 earth years to an immortal would be less than a blink of an eye! Now if Jesus was also god, he would have known he would be coming to earth, and for him it would be like a very short blink of the eye. He would not have been separated from the holy ghost and god, so how is that a great sacrifice by god? It doesn't make sense to me. The story would make more sense if Jesus was just a man, not a god, not eternal, and did not know what would happen when he died. Then he would be like the many millions who have given their life for a cause. No human being is PERFECT or without sin to offer his/her life for the sins of humanity. Jesus is God and Man, he is the perfect Lamb of God that died for our sins. John the Baptist said, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." Jesus/Christ God is Lamb of God without spot/sin who is the ONLY person died on Calvary's Cross to blot out our sins before the Father/God. ONLY God is perfect, who is SINLESS.. that person is Jesus the God who came from heaven to live in a human body to died as a man to redeem us.So if Jesus was god and perfect then he would not have be able to sin. All those temptation to Jesus was just a big waste of time. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temptation_of_Christ
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Post by xna on Dec 12, 2015 12:29:55 GMT -5
Jesus has dual natures God and Man. The God Being/Spirit was always with Him/Christ before He created the Universe and the foundation of the world, and Created Adam and Eve from the dust of the ground. The God/Being/Spirit of Jesus couldn't sin because He is God like unto the Father. The human side the Son of man/Jesus was tempted in all points yet without sin because He is also God/the Christ Himself. It sounds like a Clark Kent / Superman story.
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Post by faune on Dec 12, 2015 12:50:59 GMT -5
Nathan ~ According to WhatHat description of the historical lineage from your site, John Wesley played an integral part in the transition from the Apostle Paul to the Friends and Workers. However, surely you must be aware of Wm. Irvine's opinion regarding John Wesley, which he expounded upon in one of their early conventions in which he asked all the members to stand up who agreed with him that John Wesley was in Hell along with all the rest of the clergy associated with him? This can be found in John Long's Journal and was associated with his own excommunication for not supporting such a notion. Also, you claim that Wm. Irvine broke away from the Faith Mission, when in actuality he was fired or dismissed in January 1901, although he had continued to accept funding from them while promoting his own version of the gospel message from August 1897 onward in northern Ireland. Cherie, indeed has well documented all these historical documents, including this incident at one of their early conventions. I feel she has more than exceeded herself in preserving the "real history" of the 2x2's. If this caused a number of folks to depart the faith as result, perhaps it's because the workers CHOSE to lie and mislead the people by creating another storyline to cover-up their actual founder, Wm. Irvine? Just some food for thought this morning! www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/07wmibook.php Chapter 7 ~ John Long's Account of his Excommunication
William Irvine was a Faith Mission preacher in 1897-1901. He was still converting people to join the Faith Mission preacher rank and Faith Mission prayer union members... Jack Carroll and his sister May Carroll became Faith Mission prayer Union members in 1897. May Carroll, became a Faith Mission preacher in 1898-99 John Long became Faith Mission member in 1898-1914. During 1897-1901 William Irvine was still working for the Faith Mission group. In 1901 William Irvine, Jack, Bill, May, and two more younger sisters became 2x2, John Long joined them, and a few others from the Faith Mission preachers. Edward Cooney, George Walker, and many others eventually join them. Many of the reformers Luther, John Calvin, John Wesley and others KNEW the existence of the Vaudois= Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry and fellowship... They admired their courage, belief, and way of worship but they didn't to join their cause like Peter Waldo, a RCC French man did in 1170 A.D. They want their own reformation... they want to reform the RCC system, not to destroy it. They cut only the branches off from the tree, NOT the roots of the tree so eventually it grows and produce the similar fruits of the RCC. The Anglican church, Methodists, Presbyterians, all have similar rituals, belief to the RCC: The Mother... Refomers= are her daughters. William Irvine and most of the early workers and the friends did NOT want to be reformers such as Luther, Calvin, and Wesley back to the RCC system. They want to return to Jesus 2x2 apostolic Itinerant ministry and the New Testament fellowship! That was one of the main purpose William Irvine and 99% of the workers and the friends decided to ex-communicate John Long the non-exclusive worker from the ministry and fellowship in 1907. John Long sent his 2x2 converts back to the Refomers churches, and the RCC whatever church they choose. The main group disagree with John Long's non-exclusive ministry, belief and teaching. Testimony of Ida West (Daughter of John & Sara West) Rossahilly, Ballinamallard, N. Ireland August, 1954 An interested person has asked me to tell my story with regard to my faith and the fellowship I have kept. My parents, John and Sara West, were brought up in the Church of Ireland (Anglican). My father, for a time previous to his marriage, moved and worked among the Methodists. Soon after his marriage in 1901, he, Edward Cooney, Tom Betty and others, all of whom used to evangelize together, moved out of the sects to which they belonged, Church of Ireland, Methodist, Presbyterian and so on, into fellowship with William Irvine, a Scottish Presbyterian evangelist in the Faith Mission, who was with others moving out of Faith Mission toward clearer light on New Testament teaching and practices. They took the view that Christendom was confusion of which God was not the author. So they decided to go to Christendom and the world the way Jesus sent his apostles to Israel (Matthew 10) and to the world (Matthew 28). This is what the preachers did. My father, who did not go to preach, opened his heart and home to these preachers who sold their possessions, scattered their money to the poor and went out to preach by faith. Their message was repent, believe the gospel, follow the teaching and example of New Testament founders--Christ and the apostles. This move raised the opposition of clergy and leaders among the denominations, e.g. Church of Ireland, Methodists, Presbyterians, Salvation Army, Plymouth Brethren and others. The young movement held the course to take was "Come out of Babylon" which is confusion. By this they meant to refuse fellowship with the world, false teachers and systems because they contradicted the teaching and example of Christ and his apostles. Their opponents held that it was better to stay in and clean up inside; but they ignored the fact that principalities and powers need exposure and triumphing over (Col. 2:15). This could only be done by a fuller manifestation of Christ through willing witnesses which this people proved by bearing their cross representing Christ as He in bearing his cross represented or declared the Father. The movement grew and spread rapidly. Nathan ~ Impressive testimony by Ida West back in August 1954 But, how relevant is it to the true gospel message found recorded in Paul's letters to the churches?
So, if the workers are still following the original ministry pattern of Jesus in sending out apostles two by two, why do they not follow the rest of the admonitions given by Jesus in relation to the same in Matthew 10? Why do you think Paul and the rest of the disciples were raised up by Jesus to declare the full extent of Jesus' gospel message for the world? Did he exclude anybody from hearing God's Word? What exactly did Paul teach ~ the 2x2 method of ministry and meetings in the home as Jesus' gospel message or the one found centered around the Cross, death, and resurrection of Jesus? Please see 1 Cor. 15 for an illustration of this point and the letter to the Romans for a better view of Jesus' "true gospel message."
www.gotquestions.org/true-gospel.html What is the True Gospel Message?
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Post by fixit on Dec 12, 2015 13:57:42 GMT -5
In many ways the Go Preachers' Testimony excelled all others; therefore it appealed to lovers of truth. In sacrifice, plainness of dress, self-denial, hospitality and good works, it was ahead of all other missions in the world; and it was to be lamented that such a Testimony should spoil its good by believing an untruth, rather fanatic to think about. That was an interesting comment from John Long.
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Post by faune on Dec 12, 2015 14:37:26 GMT -5
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Post by Mary on Dec 12, 2015 19:06:40 GMT -5
Nathan, you have not gone back further that Cherie. She has clearly shown that William Irvine broke with the Faith Mission and that William was converted through a Presbyterian evangelist. All you have done is claim that the Faith Mission came from the Waldensians and that the Waldensians were the original church so the workers trace themselves back to Jesus, all of which is not correct. You just made a guess with no evidence to back it up. From my memory William was brought up Methodist, converted through a Presbyterian evangelist and joined a protestant Missionary movement called the Faith Mission. Nothing to do with the Waldensians but everything to do with mainstream Christianity. You can look up the history of mainstream protestant churches. Keswick conventions were also part of mainstream protestant Christianity as well. All you have done is tried to reinvent the truth and make some claim that they go back through the Waldensians with no evidence. All evidence points to the workers involvement with mainstream Christianity. Also, there was no church in the beginning for the workers to send their converts to so who could then send them to? Also, all converts were expected to give up all and preach which certainly was not an option for many. The workers did not form a church until around 1901 so no church for people to attend except mainstream churches. Firstly you have not given any evidence that the workers can trace back through the Waldensians. The evidence is that is can be traced through protestant mainstream churches with the early workers coming from Presbyterian, Methodist, and Anglican backgrounds as you have written above. Making a wild guess is not tracing anything. Cherie posts facts, not her own made up ideas. Your second mistake is that you claim that the Waldensians are descendants of the first apostles. As you and I know, this is not correct. They were started by Peter Waldo in the 1100s. You always take a guess at things and say things with no proof. As you can see below, the Waldensians did not believe in an hierarchical structure as the workers have. The Waldensians were travelling ministers, roaming around preaching the Gospel. They were not sent stationery to an area like the workers do. They workers are nothing like the Waldensians. The workers only roamed for a few years in the early days and very quickly changed their structure. You are likely to see that the Waldensians are like mainstream protestant churches with their missionaries and pastors. Unlike the workers where a worker is expected to take all these roles. one person take all of these roles. The NT church had different roles for different people, not one person taking all the roles like the worker does. Never has the church had one person taking all the roles. The workers are not roaming evangelists, they are like pastors over the existing church. That is not how the NT church functioned and nor the Waldensians who had different people for different roles. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WaldensiansThe movement originated in the late twelfth century as the Poor Men of Lyons, a band organized by Peter Waldo, a wealthy merchant who gave away his property around 1173, preaching apostolic poverty as the way to perfection. Waldensian teachings quickly came into conflict with the Roman Catholic Church. By 1215, the Waldensians were declared heretical and subject to intense persecution; the group was nearly annihilated in the seventeenth century and were confronted with organized and generalized discrimination in the centuries that followed. During the sixteenth century, Waldensian leaders embraced the Protestant Reformation and joined various local Protestant regional entities. As early as 1631, Protestant scholars–and Waldensian theologians themselves–began to regard the Waldensians as early forerunners of the Reformation who had maintained the apostolic faith in the face of Catholic oppression. Modern Waldensians share core tenets with Reformed Protestants, for example, including the priesthood of all believers, congregational polity, and a "low" view of certain sacraments such as the Lord's Supper and Baptism. They are members of the Leuenberger Konkordie (Community of Protestant Churches in Europe) and its affiliates worldwide. etc...
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Post by joanna on Dec 12, 2015 19:40:55 GMT -5
Once you accept the bible as a proscriptive and reliable text, to then nominate others who use this text as being "inconsistent" or misleading presents as illogical.
The bible is the foundation for the christian belief: without it there would be no christian denominations: christians would not "know god" as it is the bible which informs of this deity.
If you can justify the inconsistencies/lies in the bible; if you accept the accounts of biblical miracles without evidence; if you follow Jesus who claimed he came from/was sent by god via a virgin birth: if you absorb these biblical truth claims without questioning their validity: how and why is it then reasonable to expose one of the thousands of christian beliefs to a degree of scrutiny you resist applying to the very source of your belief?
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Post by Mary on Dec 12, 2015 21:40:57 GMT -5
There is no proof that the workers came from the Waldensians. That is your theory based on no evidence. You take from a few books that are contrary to other history. Jensen who you quote was a professing person. He says something to the effect that it his writings were not fact. I have Broadbent's book.
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Post by Mary on Dec 13, 2015 0:08:37 GMT -5
If revelation does not line up with the truth (facts) then we have to question if what we are seeing is really true or us just wanting it to fit into our thinking. We are not so in tune with God that our own human thinking does not come into it. We still remain human and subject to mistakes and being misled. I could say God has revealed to me something different but that does not make it correct because I am human and subject to mistakes.
There is plenty of history about the Waldensian church on the internet and other books that contradict what you say about the Waldensians history. Broadbent does not mention the 2x2s or workers nor does any other book. Jensen makes a hint but claims no proof.
Of course the linage of the workers via the Waldensians is not supported by any facts. The facts are they came down the mainstream churches line with workers coming from Mainstream Protestant churches, the Faith mission being a mainstream organisation. Who was the historian you are referring to that you heard in the 1990s?
I take it that the workers do not endorse your thinking on Valiant Thor and aliens, and Jesus living on Venus.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 13, 2015 0:13:09 GMT -5
There is no proof that the workers came from the Waldensians. That is your theory based on no evidence. You take from a few books that are contrary to other history. Jensen who you quote was a professing person. He says something to the effect that it his writings were not fact. I have Broadbent's book. I have other books beside Broadbent. I have the historical accounts of the Vaudois historians. If the Holy Spirit hasn't revealed these things to you already, it doesn't matter how many historians I show you, you will NOT believe it. I just reveal enough information so the Spirit does His work behind the scene. It was revealed to me by revelation, faith, and scriptures when I was attending the 2x2 workers meetings that the church of Jesus and apostles has always existed in every generation in 1979. So, when I heard about the Peter Waldo the Vaudois/Waldenses French man from a Church history historian professor lecture in Oregon 1990, it was a confirmation of God's revelation to me in 1979.
One day in 1980, I was watching a movie about the life/ministry of Paul at the end of the movie it showed Paul and a younger man walking on a Roman highway toward Rome, a revelation came into my head... That! just like Uncle Leo and his younger companion, Larry T. NATHAN! That is hubris beyond belief!
To state that YOU have the true historical accounts of the Vaudois, but -YOU - you are so important that YOU, -you "just reveal enough information so the Spirit does His work behind the scene. "
BS. You aren't that important! You are suffering from a delusion grandeur! Geeze! your alien delusions were bad enough! Now you think that you are of such importance that you are a conduit for the so-called "HOLY" Spirit!
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 13, 2015 1:14:11 GMT -5
If revelation does not line up with the truth (facts) then we have to question if what we are seeing is really true or us just wanting it to fit into our thinking. We are not so in tune with God that our own human thinking does not come into it. We still remain human and subject to mistakes and being misled. I could say God has revealed to me something different but that does not make it correct because I am human and subject to mistakes. There is plenty of history about the Waldensian church on the internet and other books that contradict what you say about the Waldensians history. Broadbent does not mention the 2x2s or workers nor does any other book. Jensen makes a hint but claims no proof. Of course the linage of the workers via the Waldensians is not supported by any facts. The facts are they came down the mainstream churches line with workers coming from Mainstream Protestant churches, the Faith mission being a mainstream organisation. Who was the historian you are referring to that you heard in the 1990s? I take it that the workers do not endorse your thinking on Valiant Thor and aliens, and Jesus living on Venus. Within a few years millions, billions of people on this planet will hear and KNOW about Jesus Christ, the creator of the Venusians sent Valiant, Donn Thor to help mankind in 1930---- Oh, -just can it, Nathan!
You just "cut & paste" the same damn thing over & over again!
You just lost any tiny bit of credibility that you might have had when you said that you had true historical accounts of the Vaudois but you apparently are laboring under delusion that you are so important that you "just reveal enough information so the Spirit does His work behind the scene."
Bah, Humbug!
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 13, 2015 3:55:42 GMT -5
Of course you do & you just eat it up like candy.
You are so gullible that someone could sell you prime real estate in the everglades, -the same piece of land over & over & over & over, again & again, and you would still never realize you were being conned.
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Post by faune on Dec 13, 2015 12:34:41 GMT -5
Nathan, you have not gone back further that Cherie. She has clearly shown that William Irvine broke with the Faith Mission and that William was converted through a Presbyterian evangelist. All you have done is claim that the Faith Mission came from the Waldensians and that the Waldensians were the original church so the workers trace themselves back to Jesus, all of which is not correct. You just made a guess with no evidence to back it up. From my memory William was brought up Methodist, converted through a Presbyterian evangelist and joined a protestant Missionary movement called the Faith Mission. Nothing to do with the Waldensians but everything to do with mainstream Christianity. You can look up the history of mainstream protestant churches. Keswick conventions were also part of mainstream protestant Christianity as well. All you have done is tried to reinvent the truth and make some claim that they go back through the Waldensians with no evidence. All evidence points to the workers involvement with mainstream Christianity. Also, there was no church in the beginning for the workers to send their converts to so who could then send them to? Also, all converts were expected to give up all and preach which certainly was not an option for many. The workers did not form a church until around 1901 so no church for people to attend except mainstream churches. Firstly you have not given any evidence that the workers can trace back through the Waldensians. The evidence is that is can be traced through protestant mainstream churches with the early workers coming from Presbyterian, Methodist, and Anglican backgrounds as you have written above. Making a wild guess is not tracing anything. Cherie posts facts, not her own made up ideas. Your second mistake is that you claim that the Waldensians are descendants of the first apostles. As you and I know, this is not correct. They were started by Peter Waldo in the 1100s. You always take a guess at things and say things with no proof. As you can see below, the Waldensians did not believe in an hierarchical structure as the workers have. The Waldensians were travelling ministers, roaming around preaching the Gospel. They were not sent stationery to an area like the workers do. They workers are nothing like the Waldensians. The workers only roamed for a few years in the early days and very quickly changed their structure. You are likely to see that the Waldensians are like mainstream protestant churches with their missionaries and pastors. Unlike the workers where a worker is expected to take all these roles. one person take all of these roles. The NT church had different roles for different people, not one person taking all the roles like the worker does. Never has the church had one person taking all the roles. The workers are not roaming evangelists, they are like pastors over the existing church. That is not how the NT church functioned and nor the Waldensians who had different people for different roles. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WaldensiansThe movement originated in the late twelfth century as the Poor Men of Lyons, a band organized by Peter Waldo, a wealthy merchant who gave away his property around 1173, preaching apostolic poverty as the way to perfection. Waldensian teachings quickly came into conflict with the Roman Catholic Church. By 1215, the Waldensians were declared heretical and subject to intense persecution; the group was nearly annihilated in the seventeenth century and were confronted with organized and generalized discrimination in the centuries that followed. During the sixteenth century, Waldensian leaders embraced the Protestant Reformation and joined various local Protestant regional entities. As early as 1631, Protestant scholars–and Waldensian theologians themselves–began to regard the Waldensians as early forerunners of the Reformation who had maintained the apostolic faith in the face of Catholic oppression. Modern Waldensians share core tenets with Reformed Protestants, for example, including the priesthood of all believers, congregational polity, and a "low" view of certain sacraments such as the Lord's Supper and Baptism. They are members of the Leuenberger Konkordie (Community of Protestant Churches in Europe) and its affiliates worldwide. etc... Mary ~ Thanks for the excellent clarification on this matter of apostolic succession within the 2x2's going back to the NT church. I believe Nathan has been influenced in part by Dr. Cornelius Jaenen's book and E. H. Broadbent's book , The Pilgrim Church, which make a number of similar claims. I realize some professing folks may choose to believe all this stuff, although it has only assumptions to support its claims, much like the concept of the Perfect Way (2X2's) has direct lineage back to the N.T. church. However, what Nathan doesn't bring out in his posts is that all of these groups were Trinitarian in their beliefs ~ not Arian, as distinguished by the 2x2's, who do not believe Jesus was God in the flesh. If he's interested in learning the facts regarding these so-called connecting links to the 2x2's, he can check out Kevin Daniel's book, Reinventing the Truth, pp. 69-71 (Chapter 4) and also Appendix C & D to this same chapter on this same topic. For starters, the "Waldenses was a reform movement that originally sought to remain within the Roman Catholic Church (RCC). They were no outside group from the RCC that resembled the 2x2's and stayed apart from the organized church (RCC) of that day. This on-line book I recommended goes into all the history of these earlier groups and their background. Perhaps Nathan needs to compare it with is own assumptions to determine what is truth and what is not from historical accounts? professing.proboards.com/thread/15451 Review of Dr. Cornelius Jaenen's book on TMB
Book: "The Apostles' Doctrine and Fellowship: a documentary history of the early church and revisionist movements." By Cornelius J. Jaenen; Published in 2003 Legus Publishing, Ottawa, Ontario ISBN 1-894508-48-3 www.dubiousdisciple.com/2012/03/book-review-the-pilgrim-church.html Book review of "The Pilgrim Church" by E. H. Broadbent books.google.com/books?id=7y04X8o6JOIC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false Reinventing the Truth, on-line free Google book, check out Chapter 4, especially Pages 69-71 on the Waldenses.
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