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Post by maryhig on Jan 27, 2016 4:47:02 GMT -5
Ram, I agree with many things you have said there. But can I ask you a question please. You seem to believe that Jesus wasn't with God before he can't to earth. Do you mean the fleshly Jesus wasn't with God, but Christ was? Or that Christ wasn't with God? Thanks My belief is that Jesus first came into actual being when he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of Mary. IMO Jesus was, is and always will be a human being, but now rules over the universe on his Father's behalf in his "glorified" human body and this human being will one day (soon?) return in this manner, the full expression of the glory of God, to receive his elect. Jesus existed in the "mind" and "plan" of God before the world or time began. When God plans something it is already a reality in his mind. It will come to pass in God's time. All things were created by God who is the Father, through Jesus Christ according to the mind and plan of God, by God's power, i.e. the Holy Spirit. God is not subject to time. He created time. Time operates within God, not the other way around. When God plans something, or speaks, it is a sure thing, it is a reality. God's words go out and do NOT return to him void. It returns to him having accomplished its purpose in HIS time and according to his plan. Some of his words spoken as a reality many centuries ago have still to return to him having accomplished their purpose. The state of the world nowadays suggests these words will be returning to God soon! To give you an example. I will paraphrase (at best). When Jesus prayed the night before he was crucified, for God to glorify him with the glory that he had with the Father before the world began, God had already glorified Jesus in his mind and plan, but Jesus had not yet received it. He was about to. This SAME glory Jesus then passes on to his disciples there and then, yet they would not receive it until they too entered life everlasting. It was the same glory and in the same context. But do you believe that Christ was with God before he came into human flesh as Jesus? That's what I believe.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2016 4:49:51 GMT -5
I agree with this, but with the caveat that the term "divine" does not apply "solely" to God. Yes God is the source of the hidden things of God that must be divinely sought out. However, as I mentioned in my reference to water divining, the source of the water is a "divine" source since it too must be sought out by divine methods (diving rods etc). Also the false spirits are a divine source of evil, which likewise can be sought out. A practice condemned in the Bible. People can and do get "divine" evil knowledge and power by seeking it out. That is the divination that is seriously condemned in the Bible. Understanding this, we can understand just why God never identifies "divinity" as part of his character. That term belongs to the false deities of paganism. God is an Holy God, not a divine one as understood and promoted by the Bible colleges and theologians. I never ever use the word divine as relating to God, we never use the word in our meeting either. I am saying what I believe is the only way I see the word divine can be interpreted in the scriptures. As from a dictionary, to mean to come from God, and Jesus came from God but he isn't God. To me God is our holy father and the only true living God, Jesus who is the Christ is his son and the holy ghost has power that comes from God. Everything comes from God and he is over everything and everyone including Christ who is also subject to him. The term "divine" is a derivative of the noun "divination." Do a little study on its actual usage in the Bible to get a clear and overall "Biblical" perspective of what it all means. It is condemned more than it is promoted, because it also relates to seeking out false spirits, practices, etc. We have been so indoctrinated by theologians by their misuse and gross overuse of the term, it has come to mean something very different to what it originally meant in respect of God with the result it has cast God and Jesus up amongst the false gods.
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Post by maryhig on Jan 27, 2016 4:52:58 GMT -5
Ram, I agree with many things you have said there. But can I ask you a question please. You seem to believe that Jesus wasn't with God before he can't to earth. Do you mean the fleshly Jesus wasn't with God, but Christ was? Or that Christ wasn't with God? Thanks My belief is that Jesus first came into actual being when he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of Mary. IMO Jesus was, is and always will be a human being, but now rules over the universe on his Father's behalf in his "glorified" human body and this human being will one day (soon?) return in this manner, the full expression of the glory of God, to receive his elect. Jesus existed in the "mind" and "plan" of God before the world or time began. When God plans something it is already a reality in his mind. It will come to pass in God's time. All things were created by God who is the Father, through Jesus Christ according to the mind and plan of God, by God's power, i.e. the Holy Spirit. God is not subject to time. He created time. Time operates within God, not the other way around. When God plans something, or speaks, it is a sure thing, it is a reality. God's words go out and do NOT return to him void. It returns to him having accomplished its purpose in HIS time and according to his plan. Some of his words spoken as a reality many centuries ago have still to return to him having accomplished their purpose. The state of the world nowadays suggests these words will be returning to God soon! To give you an example. I will paraphrase (at best). When Jesus prayed the night before he was crucified, for God to glorify him with the glory that he had with the Father before the world began, God had already glorified Jesus in his mind and plan, but Jesus had not yet received it. He was about to. This SAME glory Jesus then passes on to his disciples there and then, yet they would not receive it until they too entered life everlasting. It was the same glory and in the same context. I agree with what you say about time. Time is determined by God, not God by time. Even his days are different to ours. Ours are morning to evening Gods are evening to morning. Ours go from light to darkness. Gods go from darkness to light. As it says in the bible. A day is a thousand years and a thousand years is a day to God. God created time, just as he created everything. And he can do anything time has no meaning to him.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2016 4:58:42 GMT -5
My belief is that Jesus first came into actual being when he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of Mary. IMO Jesus was, is and always will be a human being, but now rules over the universe on his Father's behalf in his "glorified" human body and this human being will one day (soon?) return in this manner, the full expression of the glory of God, to receive his elect. Jesus existed in the "mind" and "plan" of God before the world or time began. When God plans something it is already a reality in his mind. It will come to pass in God's time. All things were created by God who is the Father, through Jesus Christ according to the mind and plan of God, by God's power, i.e. the Holy Spirit. God is not subject to time. He created time. Time operates within God, not the other way around. When God plans something, or speaks, it is a sure thing, it is a reality. God's words go out and do NOT return to him void. It returns to him having accomplished its purpose in HIS time and according to his plan. Some of his words spoken as a reality many centuries ago have still to return to him having accomplished their purpose. The state of the world nowadays suggests these words will be returning to God soon! To give you an example. I will paraphrase (at best). When Jesus prayed the night before he was crucified, for God to glorify him with the glory that he had with the Father before the world began, God had already glorified Jesus in his mind and plan, but Jesus had not yet received it. He was about to. This SAME glory Jesus then passes on to his disciples there and then, yet they would not receive it until they too entered life everlasting. It was the same glory and in the same context. But do you believe that Christ was with God before he came into human flesh as Jesus? That's what I believe. Not in actuality. Formerly I did, but after much searching I now believe as I have stated above. He "first" came into actual being in the womb of Mary and did not actually pre-exist in spiritual or other form before this. Just like a normal human birth, as God promised in Deut. 18:18 and elsewhere. Jesus was "with" God in his mind (thinking) and planning. Just as a natural couple plan to have family and make preparations in advance! The baby is not actually with them at the time but all their planning is through that plan for the baby. Everything God did was for his only begotten human being son. Everything was done by God through Jesus (the plan) by his Spirit or power. It all came to pass in God's time. Remember, when God plans something, it WILL happen. It is a sure thing. It is a reality which will come to pass in due course of time, but remember God is not confined by time. He created time itself and it operates within him, not the other way about.
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Post by maryhig on Jan 27, 2016 4:59:14 GMT -5
I never ever use the word divine as relating to God, we never use the word in our meeting either. I am saying what I believe is the only way I see the word divine can be interpreted in the scriptures. As from a dictionary, to mean to come from God, and Jesus came from God but he isn't God. To me God is our holy father and the only true living God, Jesus who is the Christ is his son and the holy ghost has power that comes from God. Everything comes from God and he is over everything and everyone including Christ who is also subject to him. The term "divine" is a derivative of the noun "divination." Do a little study on its actual usage in the Bible to get a clear and overall "Biblical" perspective of what it all means. It is condemned more than it is promoted, because it also relates to seeking out false spirits, practices, etc. We have been so indoctrinated by theologians by their misuse and gross overuse of the term, it has come to mean something very different to what it originally meant in respect of God with the result it has cast God and Jesus up amongst the false gods. I will, but really, I never use the word divine. As I said, they don't use it in our meeting either. I agree with what your are saying and people do misuse the word. There is only one God and saying Jesus is divine does not make him God. This is the fleshly mind of man that has tried to work out the ways of God and come up with this idea that Jesus being divine makes him God. When as you rightly say, Jesus never refers to God as divine nor is Jesus referred to as divine. Divine is used in a trinitarian sense which also isn't biblical. There is no trinity or God the son in the bible.
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Post by maryhig on Jan 27, 2016 5:02:49 GMT -5
But do you believe that Christ was with God before he came into human flesh as Jesus? That's what I believe. Not in actuality. Formerly I did, but after much searching I now believe as I have stated above. He "first" came into actual being in the womb of Mary and did not actually pre-exist in spiritual or other form before this. Just like a normal human birth, as God promised in Deut. 18:18 and elsewhere. Jesus was "with" God in his mind (thinking) and planning. Just as a natural couple plan to have family and make preparations in advance! The baby is not actually with them at the time but all their planning is through that plan for the baby. Everything God did was for his only begotten human being son. Everything was done by God through Jesus (the plan) by his Spirit or power. It all came to pass in God's time. Remember, when God plans something, it WILL happen. It is a sure thing. It is a reality which will come to pass in due course of time, but remember God is not confined by time. He created time itself and it operates within him, not the other way about. Ah right, no I do believe that Christ was with God before, because Christ was in the prophets. So he had to be with God beforehand. 1 Peter 1 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2016 5:07:24 GMT -5
The term "divine" is a derivative of the noun "divination." Do a little study on its actual usage in the Bible to get a clear and overall "Biblical" perspective of what it all means. It is condemned more than it is promoted, because it also relates to seeking out false spirits, practices, etc. We have been so indoctrinated by theologians by their misuse and gross overuse of the term, it has come to mean something very different to what it originally meant in respect of God with the result it has cast God and Jesus up amongst the false gods. I will, but really, I never use the word divine. As I said, they don't use it in our meeting either. I agree with what your are saying and people do misuse the word. There is only one God and saying Jesus is divine does not make him God. This is the fleshly mind of man that has tried to work out the ways of God and come up with this idea that Jesus being divine makes him God. When as you rightly say, Jesus never refers to God as divine nor is Jesus referred to as divine. Divine is used in a trinitarian sense which also isn't biblical. There is no trinity or God the son in the bible. The lack of use in your meeting of the term divine (unless in correct context) is a major signpost pointing towards Truth! I look forward to learning more about your "meeting" in due course.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2016 5:15:32 GMT -5
Not in actuality. Formerly I did, but after much searching I now believe as I have stated above. He "first" came into actual being in the womb of Mary and did not actually pre-exist in spiritual or other form before this. Just like a normal human birth, as God promised in Deut. 18:18 and elsewhere. Jesus was "with" God in his mind (thinking) and planning. Just as a natural couple plan to have family and make preparations in advance! The baby is not actually with them at the time but all their planning is through that plan for the baby. Everything God did was for his only begotten human being son. Everything was done by God through Jesus (the plan) by his Spirit or power. It all came to pass in God's time. Remember, when God plans something, it WILL happen. It is a sure thing. It is a reality which will come to pass in due course of time, but remember God is not confined by time. He created time itself and it operates within him, not the other way about. Ah right, no I do believe that Christ was with God before, because Christ was in the prophets. So he had to be with God beforehand. 1 Peter 1 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. I think Hebrews 1 shows the correct order of things with the appearing of the Prophets and Jesus. Remember the "Spirit of Christ" spoken about is really the "Holy Spirit" which Christ received as his inheritance after his resurrection (Acts 2) and which he sends to all true believers. He NOW has control over it, on behalf of God his Father. This is the same Spirit that was in the Prophets. Hebrews 1 King James Version (KJV) 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
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Post by maryhig on Jan 27, 2016 5:15:51 GMT -5
I will, but really, I never use the word divine. As I said, they don't use it in our meeting either. I agree with what your are saying and people do misuse the word. There is only one God and saying Jesus is divine does not make him God. This is the fleshly mind of man that has tried to work out the ways of God and come up with this idea that Jesus being divine makes him God. When as you rightly say, Jesus never refers to God as divine nor is Jesus referred to as divine. Divine is used in a trinitarian sense which also isn't biblical. There is no trinity or God the son in the bible. The lack of use in your meeting of the term divine (unless in correct context) is a major signpost pointing towards Truth! I look forward to learning more about your "meeting" in due course. If you ever decide to come climbing here in Wales, as you have said you've wanted to do or maybe even a walk up Snowdon. You will be welcome to come to our meeting, any of them. Our doors are open to anyone who is interested.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2016 5:20:04 GMT -5
The lack of use in your meeting of the term divine (unless in correct context) is a major signpost pointing towards Truth! I look forward to learning more about your "meeting" in due course. If you ever decide to come climbing here in Wales, as you have said you've wanted to do or maybe even a walk up Snowdon. You will be welcome to come to our meeting, any of them. Our doors are open to anyone who is interested. That is a very kind invitation Maryhig. God-willing that may happen sometime. It would be nice to compare your fellowship meeting with the usual ones. Are there any such meetings left in Scotland?
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Post by maryhig on Jan 27, 2016 5:26:24 GMT -5
Ah right, no I do believe that Christ was with God before, because Christ was in the prophets. So he had to be with God beforehand. 1 Peter 1 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. I think Hebrews 1 shows the correct order of things with the appearing of the Prophets and Jesus. Remember the "Spirit of Christ" spoken about is really the "Holy Spirit" which Christ received as his inheritance after his resurrection (Acts 2) and which he sends to all true believers. He NOW has control over it, on behalf of God his Father. This is the same Spirit that was in the Prophets. Hebrews 1 King James Version (KJV) 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. Yes I believe that Christ does have control over the spirit now, and only because God has given him that control. And Christ speaks through the spirit. But I do believe that Christ was with God before he came into flesh. I believe he has been with God from the beginning. I will leave everything in Gods hands. If I am to know anything different, then he will show me what I need to know and when. Thanks though for explaining the way you believe.
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Post by maryhig on Jan 27, 2016 5:30:00 GMT -5
If you ever decide to come climbing here in Wales, as you have said you've wanted to do or maybe even a walk up Snowdon. You will be welcome to come to our meeting, any of them. Our doors are open to anyone who is interested. That is a very kind invitation Maryhig. God-willing that may happen sometime. It would be nice to compare your fellowship meeting with the usual ones. Are there any such meetings left in Scotland? I don't know where, but i know there are a few in the uk, there are some in Ireland. But elsewhere i don't know. but don't worry, if you do come here, you won't be in no man's land for long. Just a quick drive through only joking!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2016 5:30:04 GMT -5
I think Hebrews 1 shows the correct order of things with the appearing of the Prophets and Jesus. Remember the "Spirit of Christ" spoken about is really the "Holy Spirit" which Christ received as his inheritance after his resurrection (Acts 2) and which he sends to all true believers. He NOW has control over it, on behalf of God his Father. This is the same Spirit that was in the Prophets. Hebrews 1 King James Version (KJV) 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. Yes I believe that Christ does have control over the spirit now, and only because God has given him that control. And Christ when's through the spirit. But I do believe that Christ was with God before he came into flesh. I believe he has been with God from the beginning. I will leave everything in Gods hands. If I am to know anything different, then he will show me what I need to know and when. Thanks though for explaining the way you believe. Most of my life I believed as you believe. In one sense they are the same, because in the mind and plan of God, his only begotten son was very real.
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Post by maryhig on Jan 27, 2016 5:33:49 GMT -5
Yes I believe that Christ does have control over the spirit now, and only because God has given him that control. And Christ when's through the spirit. But I do believe that Christ was with God before he came into flesh. I believe he has been with God from the beginning. I will leave everything in Gods hands. If I am to know anything different, then he will show me what I need to know and when. Thanks though for explaining the way you believe. Most of my life I believed as you believe. In one sense they are the same, because in the mind and plan of God, his only begotten son was very real. Well God created Christ at some point, so in that sense, what you say is right.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2016 5:34:04 GMT -5
That is a very kind invitation Maryhig. God-willing that may happen sometime. It would be nice to compare your fellowship meeting with the usual ones. Are there any such meetings left in Scotland? I don't know where, but i know there are a few in the uk, there are some in Ireland. But elsewhere i don't know. but don't worry, if you do come here, you won't be in no man's land for long. Just a quick drive through only joking! The only Welsh word I know is "Heddlu!" Oh, and that village name which is a mile long? Anyway, the offer sounds good! Many thanks. Perhaps I'll start my own way? No, wait! I'll find it? Or, found it? Or claim it goes all the way back..............Nah, that's already been done by a Scotsman!
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Post by maryhig on Jan 27, 2016 5:35:35 GMT -5
I don't know where, but i know there are a few in the uk, there are some in Ireland. But elsewhere i don't know. but don't worry, if you do come here, you won't be in no man's land for long. Just a quick drive through only joking! The only Welsh word I know is "Heddlu!" Oh, and that village name which is a mile long? Anyway, the offer sounds good! Many thanks. Perhaps I'll start my own way? No, wait! I'll find it? Or, found it? Or claim it goes all the way back..............Nah, that's already been done by a Scotsman! Oh dear
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2016 5:35:43 GMT -5
Most of my life I believed as you believe. In one sense they are the same, because in the mind and plan of God, his only begotten son was very real. Well God created Christ at some point, so in that sense, what you say is right. Keep searching. Follow the signposts! However, don't try and read the name of that Welsh village or you'll crash the car!
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Post by maryhig on Jan 27, 2016 5:43:35 GMT -5
Well God created Christ at some point, so in that sense, what you say is right. Keep searching. Follow the signposts! However, don't try and read the name of that Welsh village or you'll crash the car! Here's the name of that town, it is even written right across their train station! But we call it llanfair pg for short, it's much easier to pronounce llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch I go there with my husband in the summer, I love Anglesey it's beautiful!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2016 5:49:41 GMT -5
Keep searching. Follow the signposts! However, don't try and read the name of that Welsh village or you'll crash the car! Here's the name of that town, it is even written right across their train station! But we call it llanfair pg for short, it's much easier to pronounce llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch I go there with my husband in the summer, I love Anglesey it's beautiful! Thanks for posting that. I wouldn't have known where to begin. Somehow my spelling auto correct doesn't recognise it? That's another reason to visit Wales. I would be at home there. The name of that village sounds exactly like the stuff I spout on TMB? Presumably that's the type of "tongues" spoken in your meeting? Lol!
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Post by maryhig on Jan 27, 2016 5:52:29 GMT -5
Here's the name of that town, it is even written right across their train station! But we call it llanfair pg for short, it's much easier to pronounce llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch I go there with my husband in the summer, I love Anglesey it's beautiful! Thanks for posting that. I wouldn't have known where to begin. Somehow my spelling auto correct doesn't recognise it? That's another reason to visit Wales. I would be at home there. The name of that village sounds exactly like the stuff I spout on TMB? Presumably that's the type of "tongues" spoken in your meeting? Lol! Ha ha, funny!
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Post by sunshine on Jan 28, 2016 1:39:02 GMT -5
Wally scribed: 2Pe_1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
here it states he had divine power how can a being have divine power if they are not divine? how in this verse does divine allege pagan roots?In other recent threads I've already covered this passage with its two references to "divine" along with the only other reference to "divine" which is mentioned in Hebrews. It is a term very rarely used throughout the scriptures and both God and Jesus AND the Apostles NEVER use it to describe the character of God or Jesus. It is a huge red herring of Christendom and has been introduced from paganism. The term "divinity" like "trinity" is never mentioned in the Bible. The term "divine" derives from "divination" which is seriously condemned in the Bible. Where the term divine is used in Peter and Hebrews we have to understand its correct context and that is best seen in the original meaning of the word. Think of "water divining?" Searching out the hidden source of water using diving sticks or rods, etc. Divination in a spiritual context is searching out the hidden or unknown things in the spiritual world. This is a common practice with false deities and is loathed by God. He does NOT identify with this sort of thing. "Divine" does not mean some kind of supreme being in a true Godly sense, though the theologians have made it so, even to the point it had found its way into our dictionaries. "Divine" in a truly Godly sense is a reference to the hidden power or knowledge of God which God wants us to seek out for ourselves. God loves those who love him, those who seek him out. (paraphrased) It would have been better if you had quoted the surrounding verses to the passage you quoted and you will see the term in its correct context! 2 Peter 1King James Version (KJV) 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. We can share in the "divine" power and nature (hidden) through seeking out God and acquiring it for ourselves. The theologian will tell you that only God is divine. However, we clearly see that in the only passages in the Bible where it mentions the term. we too can be divine through being partakers of the divine nature. The above passages clearly link "divine" in a Godly sense with (hidden) knowledge which comes by seeking it out. Try using the term "divine" in the same context and percentage of usage it appears in the Bible. The theologians have made a false god out of "divinity." The only true God is an "Holy" God. Now that is a different matter entirely! As an interesting aside, in your fellowship meeting circles, just listen to often the term "divinity" and "divine" are used amongst them. Compare this to the mainstream Christian world/theologians etc. I will let you draw your own conclusions on the results! Actually it was probably only the second time I've ever heard anyone say Jesus was divine.The first time was a worker who said Jesus was 100% human and 100% divine. I don't want to get hung up on the use of the actual word "divine", but more on what is the thought behind it. I mean, maybe its just a way of saying Jesus was God's son, as well as human, and what other word could we use? Holy, maybe? I don't know...but thanks for the encouragement in the earlier post to seek God for the true answers to all things...I believe with enough earnest prayer and seeking, the door to the answers will be opened..
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2016 4:42:47 GMT -5
Actually it was probably only the second time I've ever heard anyone say Jesus was divine.The first time was a worker who said Jesus was 100% human and 100% divine. I don't want to get hung up on the use of the actual word "divine", but more on what is the thought behind it. I mean, maybe its just a way of saying Jesus was God's son, as well as human, and what other word could we use? Holy, maybe? I don't know...but thanks for the encouragement in the earlier post to seek God for the true answers to all things...I believe with enough earnest prayer and seeking, the door to the answers will be opened..
Jesus is 100% God's "human being" Son. His only begotten human being Son. Period! We seek out God the Father through the perfect human being and example, Jesus Christ. In this sense, Jesus is the "divine" source of knowledge of God, just like the water diving source! While I'm on the subject of water, here is an example of the correct context and application of "divining" straight from Jesus himself! Notice how Jesus links it all to hidden knowledge of God (the Father) that must be sought out through him (Jesus)!
John 4:
7 A woman of Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give Me a drink.” 8 For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.
9 Then the woman of Samaria said to Him, “How is it that You, being a Jew, ask a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?” For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.
10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”
11 The woman said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water? 12 Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?”
13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”
15 The woman said to Him, “Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw.”
"Divining" is used in it's truest and most Godly sense here, yet the term isn't even mentioned! It's about seeking out and possessing the gift of God.
Yes it's a great idea to substitute "Holy" for "divine" on almost all occasions. Not only will it be absolutely correct, it also applies to yourself, for Jesus said "be ye holy as he is holy!" The normal, out of context, concept of divinity or divine casts God and Jesus up amongst the false, out of reach gods, whereas "holy" (consecrated or set aside for God) has the Lord of Lords living in us, being one with us and making us his Holy Temple! A huge difference. "Divine" is twisted and used by satan to distance us from God.
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Post by Grant on Jan 28, 2016 5:06:27 GMT -5
So the millions of Christians around the world who believe Jesus is divine are wrong and you who believe he is not divine, if i am reading you correctly ram, are right.
We are all deceived by Satan but you have seen the light. Must be hard for you to worship on a Sunday with a lot of people who are deceived by satan into believing Jesus is divine.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2016 5:12:00 GMT -5
So the millions of Christians around the world who believe Jesus is divine are wrong and you who believe he is not divine, if i am reading you correctly ram, are right. We are all deceived by Satan but you have seen the light. Must be hard for you to worship on a Sunday with a lot of people who are deceived by satan into believing Jesus is divine. 'nuf, it's all about understanding what the term and its usage really means. Instead of pointing out "millions" of Christians, how about pointing out what God, Jesus and the Bible say on the matter? Think it not strange that satan deceives the "whole" world. The Bible tells us so. It is because I include myself in that "whole" that I put my trust in God and not in the confidence of man, no matter how many millions that may be! You point out the millions. Jesus pointed out the "few!" By the way 'nuf, I have noticed that when it is something that you don't like, you attack the messenger and leave the message unscathed? Is there a particular reason for this? Surely you can counter a given message with your own message? Whilst I may disagree with you at times, I do not resort to attacking you. I give my beliefs on a given subject. Can you not do likewise? You can start by giving us "your" perspective on the Biblical usage and context of "divine!" Maybe you will give me a thing or two to think about? I'm sure some of the other members of this board would love to hear your understanding of the matter?
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Post by maryhig on Jan 28, 2016 5:35:30 GMT -5
Actually it was probably only the second time I've ever heard anyone say Jesus was divine.The first time was a worker who said Jesus was 100% human and 100% divine. I don't want to get hung up on the use of the actual word "divine", but more on what is the thought behind it. I mean, maybe its just a way of saying Jesus was God's son, as well as human, and what other word could we use? Holy, maybe? I don't know...but thanks for the encouragement in the earlier post to seek God for the true answers to all things...I believe with enough earnest prayer and seeking, the door to the answers will be opened..Jesus is 100% God's "human being" Son. His only begotten human being Son. Period! We seek out God the Father through the perfect human being and example, Jesus Christ. In this sense, Jesus is the "divine" source of knowledge of God, just like the water diving source! While I'm on the subject of water, here is an example of the correct context and application of "divining" straight from Jesus himself! Notice how Jesus links it all to hidden knowledge of God (the Father) that must be sought out through him (Jesus)! John 4: 7 A woman of Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give Me a drink.” 8 For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.
9 Then the woman of Samaria said to Him, “How is it that You, being a Jew, ask a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?” For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.
10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”
11 The woman said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water? 12 Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?”
13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”
15 The woman said to Him, “Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw.”"Divining" is used in it's truest and most Godly sense here, yet the term isn't even mentioned! It's about seeking out and possessing the gift of God. Yes it's a great idea to substitute "Holy" for "divine" on almost all occasions. Not only will it be absolutely correct, it also applies to yourself, for Jesus said "be ye holy as he is holy!" The normal, out of context, concept of divinity or divine casts God and Jesus up amongst the false, out of reach gods, whereas "holy" (consecrated or set aside for God) has the Lord of Lords living in us, being one with us and making us his Holy Temple! A huge difference. "Divine" is twisted and used by satan to distance us from God. I totally agree with you regarding Jesus being an example, and about him being Gods 100% human being son. You said Jesus is a divine source of knowledge from God and yes I agree. I believe that he had received that knowledge through the spirit because he denied his own will completely. So because he laid down his life for others and gave his life completely to God to do his will, he was a partaker of the divine nature, as Peter said we to can become partakers of that divine nature, but we first must lay down our lives to bring God to others and deny ourselves so that Gods spirit can do his work within. I only see divine to mean coming from God, and Jesus had the nature of God fully so he was in his express image. Thus he had a divine godlike nature. And in no way do see I him as God. I was thinking yesterday about the water and i thought about my uncle, and how at anytime we could go to him and he would talk to us about God. And I thought he was like a well that we could draw water from at anytime. But the only reason we could do this, was because God was giving him his spirit, he was drinking from the living water that was flowing inside him. Which was the holy spirit of God. He wouldn't have been able to give us the word if he wasn't receiving it from God. Everything comes from the father, just like naturally the rain comes from above, it comes from God who created it. So does the word and Jesus brought Gods word to us, now through him and by the spirit, we too can receive the word and be refreshed daily keeping us alive in God.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2016 7:08:20 GMT -5
I couldn't have put it better myself Maryhig. Our knees are our divining rods! Yes "divine" has a Godly application, but it applies to other sources of hidden knowledge/things, e,g. divining spirits as mentioned in the Bible and of course natural water which may be hidden below ground. Jesus is the hidden source of knowledge and power from God and in this context he is indeed the divine well and like you said about your uncle, he too was a divine source of the hidden knowledge which could be tapped into. After all, aren't we all supposed to be sources of the hidden things of God that can be tapped into? This stuff you just don't get from the theologians!
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Post by Grant on Jan 28, 2016 12:26:03 GMT -5
It is you who continually says that what people believe is from satan ram but what you believe is revealed to you from God.
I have stated what I believe many times with Bible verses to back it up so no need to repeat myself. Others have also given verses to back up the divinity of Christ and his existence before coming to earth so no need again to repeat myself.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2016 13:19:41 GMT -5
It is you who continually says that what people believe is from satan ram but what you believe is revealed to you from God. I suppose it is pointless to ask you to quote specific examples of these claims so that they can be examined more properly? Your interpretation in my mind is somewhat fanciful and not in context, but there again it may be the way I am coming across? A good opportunity here for us to clarify things!
I have stated what I believe many times with Bible verses to back it up so no need to repeat myself. Others have also given verses to back up the divinity of Christ and his existence before coming to earth so no need again to repeat myself. Obviously I have missed a lot!! Or have I? Is it pointless to ask you to provide one good example? Divinity appears nowhere in the Bible. The term "divine" appears three times in the New Testament and I have given my belief as to the true meaning and context of these. I don't believe I have seen your explanation? Why should I believe in a concept that has little or no Biblical foundation, no matter how many people proclaim it. Dead fish are swept away by the current. Live fish swim against it!
'Nuf, all I am trying to do is point people to exactly what the Bible says, the importance of abiding in these words and also giving my interpretation of things. I try to avoid adding or subtracting from the word of God, believing what it says. It is through this presentation I am giving people like yourself an opportunity to properly respond with your own beliefs on these things and perhaps I might learn a thing or two myself. Other people do give me things to think about and explore and these things often expand my understanding. The critical thing though is abiding in the Word of God and not being influenced by commonly held beliefs or what the masses say, because very often that is fertile ground for error.
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