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Post by maryhig on Jan 12, 2016 19:17:20 GMT -5
At last, some sense! The blood is the poured out life! Christ's life poured out for us and into us. And we must live it as Jesus did! Our blood is replaced with that of Christ's and we live it out! We must deny ourselves and turn away from the world just as Jesus did! By his life we are saved! Thanks for posting this, some if these quotes are spot on. And if this is the way the friends believe. Then I'm right there with them! In some Bible study today, I came across some helpful verses and thoughts about the blood of Jesus that I thought I'd share. Our sin has always separated us from a holy God, and a sacrifice has always been needed to atone for that sin. In the Old Testament, it was the sacrifice of an animal. Blood was poured out on the altar. Why was blood necessary to atone for sin? Leviticus 17:11 - "For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life." And as Hebrews 9:22 also says this: "In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." So yes, the blood is the poured out life...that is why the blood is necessary. That is why the blood of Christ is necessary. The animal sacrificial system was only temporary, and was meant to point us to the death of Christ as the once-for-all sacrifice for sin. Hebrews 10:10 "...we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.". Hebrews 9 talks a lot about that old sacrificial system...the priest entering the Holiest of Holies once a year, with blood that he offered for sin. I highly recommend reading that chapter. Here is an excerpt: vs 12-14 "He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!" vs 16-18 "In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood." Jesus lived a perfect life...one reason for that was certainly to teach us, to show us how we should be also. But just as there was no hope in the Old Testament law (its purpose was to show that we are sinners, unable to live up to God's perfect standard), there is also no hope for us in simply striving to be like Jesus. I'm not saying it's not something we should desire, something we should be aiming for...but obviously we will fail, so salvation can't be attained in that way. The primary reason for His perfect life was so He would be a worthy sacrifice for sin. The sacrificial system always required the animal offered to be without spot or blemish...they couldn't just go find some sick animal that was otherwise useless to them to sacrifice. It had to be the best of the best. That is why Jesus is a worthy sacrifice for all sin...because He was perfect. 1 Peter 1: 18-19 "For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect." Colossians 1:19 and 20 tell us Jesus made peace for us, through His blood shed on the cross. Acts 20:28 tells us He bought the church with His own blood. 1 John 1:17 tells us we are purified from all sin by His blood. Revelation 7:14 tells us our robes are washed white in the blood of the Lamb. The night before Jesus died on the cross, He said "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you” (Luke 22:20). You can't just substitute the word "life" in place for the word "blood" in these verses. When these verses say blood, they mean blood...literal blood. Blood has always been necessary as an atonement for sin. And Jesus, the perfect Lamb, shed His blood for us on the cross. It is in that, and only that, that we have any hope of salvation...that is the only answer for our sin. Hiya baf86 Firstly thank you for taking the time to write all that. But I have to go with what's right in my heart as you do in yours One problem I see with the old testament sacrifices and Jesus' death on the cross is the people who made sacrifices in the old testament were Gods holy priests. Jesus' death was committed by people who were under the influence of Satan. I can't see this as being done by the will of a holy loving God. To close his eyes and forsake Jesus when he needed him most, Jesus who had never sinned, God said he would never leave us or forsake us, I can never ever see him forsake Jesus when he needed him most, i don't believe that God did this, he was strengthening Jesus as he does with us when we need him most. What loving father would do such a thing? Even Jesus himself said it was wrong to kill him in John 7 and John 8. There is nothing holy about it, except for Jesus himself, who endured to the end fulfilling all prophecies and denying Satan until his last breath. Showing love, mercy and compassion saying father forgive them for they know not what they do. Even for Jesus to say this shows it was sinful and wrong as he's asking God to forgive them. And Peter didn't say Jesus died on the cross to save us. He said if they had on known, they would not have killed the prince of life. If Peter said that, then it was wrong to kill Jesus. I know Jesus had to go through everything Satan threw at him, even the death on the cross. But, I don't believe it's 'that which saved us, I believe he had to go through everything Satan threw at him and overcome him showing love and mercy. I believe it as it said in the bible, we are reconciled by his death, but saved by his life. Also, he didn't come into the world to be crucified as many say, he came to bring the truth. In Jesus' own words John 18 To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. As I said, we must go with what's right in our own hearts before God. And I truly believe in my heart that Jesus came to live, show us the way and the truth and he is the life. And this was the purpose in his coming, and if we believe on him and follow him, then we are saved daily as we die daily by the spirit. And we must endure to the end and take whatever Satan throws at us and keep our faith showing love and compassion. And we can overcome, because Christ who is in us, is stronger than Satan and Christ has overcome the world and he will help us to do so also.
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Post by maryhig on Jan 12, 2016 19:49:02 GMT -5
Maryhig - what God has written, said and done is far more important to believe than what we think is right or wrong in our own heart. Jesus had to die to redeem us by His blood. It was the Father's will that this occurred. Romans 5 and zillions of other places in the Scripture show that Jesus took the full force of God's wrath at Calvary. He took the judgement that we deserve and it's the most loving thing that God has ever done for you and me. It means as we trust in Jesus we will never have to bear the full force of God's wrath as we continue to trust in and follow Him. That is amazing love and grace - never seen before in the world and never required after Christ's victory over sin and death had been won. Thanks, but I see those verses differently to you. And there's no point me going over it all again here, I don't want it to look like I'm arguing with you, and if you met me in real life, you would see that I'm not like that. I know you fervently believe this. And you have to go with what's right for you. But for me, it isn't right. God knows me, and he knows my heart. And I have to go with what I feel and believe is right before him.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2016 23:46:56 GMT -5
In some Bible study today, I came across some helpful verses and thoughts about the blood of Jesus that I thought I'd share. Our sin has always separated us from a holy God, and a sacrifice has always been needed to atone for that sin. In the Old Testament, it was the sacrifice of an animal. Blood was poured out on the altar. Why was blood necessary to atone for sin? Leviticus 17:11 - "For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life." And as Hebrews 9:22 also says this: "In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." So yes, the blood is the poured out life...that is why the blood is necessary. That is why the blood of Christ is necessary. The animal sacrificial system was only temporary, and was meant to point us to the death of Christ as the once-for-all sacrifice for sin. Hebrews 10:10 "...we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.". Hebrews 9 talks a lot about that old sacrificial system...the priest entering the Holiest of Holies once a year, with blood that he offered for sin. I highly recommend reading that chapter. Here is an excerpt: vs 12-14 "He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!" vs 16-18 "In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood." Jesus lived a perfect life...one reason for that was certainly to teach us, to show us how we should be also. But just as there was no hope in the Old Testament law (its purpose was to show that we are sinners, unable to live up to God's perfect standard), there is also no hope for us in simply striving to be like Jesus. I'm not saying it's not something we should desire, something we should be aiming for...but obviously we will fail, so salvation can't be attained in that way. The primary reason for His perfect life was so He would be a worthy sacrifice for sin. The sacrificial system always required the animal offered to be without spot or blemish...they couldn't just go find some sick animal that was otherwise useless to them to sacrifice. It had to be the best of the best. That is why Jesus is a worthy sacrifice for all sin...because He was perfect. 1 Peter 1: 18-19 "For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect." Colossians 1:19 and 20 tell us Jesus made peace for us, through His blood shed on the cross. Acts 20:28 tells us He bought the church with His own blood. 1 John 1:17 tells us we are purified from all sin by His blood. Revelation 7:14 tells us our robes are washed white in the blood of the Lamb. The night before Jesus died on the cross, He said "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you” (Luke 22:20). You can't just substitute the word "life" in place for the word "blood" in these verses. When these verses say blood, they mean blood...literal blood. Blood has always been necessary as an atonement for sin. And Jesus, the perfect Lamb, shed His blood for us on the cross. It is in the cross, and only the cross, that we have any hope of salvation...Jesus' shed blood is the only answer for our sin. ***1 Corinthians 1:18 puts it pretty plainly: "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." (KJV) Beth - great post and really a joy to read. It's a confronting verse but I love Galatians 3:13 for what it means to me and all of us who trust in Jesus as the source of eternal life. "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us"...and Romans 5:9 "Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!" It's often said (and is very true) that it's hard to really appreciate and understand something unless we've been through it ourselves. But we never want to experience the full force of the judgement or wrath of God - we never want to go through that. Isn't it wonderful that we don't have to because Jesus Has satisfied God's wrath IN FULL whilst on the cross at Calvary. We're studying the book of Revelation in BSF this year...tonight was chapters 8 and 9. So it's very fresh in my mind that the wrath and judgment of God is a very real and terrible thing that I wouldn't wish on anyone. Definitely gives you a sense of urgency, and drives away any complacency! As well as definitely giving you an appreciation for God's grace and mercy!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2016 1:01:12 GMT -5
In some Bible study today, I came across some helpful verses and thoughts about the blood of Jesus that I thought I'd share. Our sin has always separated us from a holy God, and a sacrifice has always been needed to atone for that sin. In the Old Testament, it was the sacrifice of an animal. Blood was poured out on the altar. Why was blood necessary to atone for sin? Leviticus 17:11 - "For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life." And as Hebrews 9:22 also says this: "In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." So yes, the blood is the poured out life...that is why the blood is necessary. That is why the blood of Christ is necessary. The animal sacrificial system was only temporary, and was meant to point us to the death of Christ as the once-for-all sacrifice for sin. Hebrews 10:10 "...we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.". Hebrews 9 talks a lot about that old sacrificial system...the priest entering the Holiest of Holies once a year, with blood that he offered for sin. I highly recommend reading that chapter. Here is an excerpt: vs 12-14 "He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!" vs 16-18 "In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood." Jesus lived a perfect life...one reason for that was certainly to teach us, to show us how we should be also. But just as there was no hope in the Old Testament law (its purpose was to show that we are sinners, unable to live up to God's perfect standard), there is also no hope for us in simply striving to be like Jesus. I'm not saying it's not something we should desire, something we should be aiming for...but obviously we will fail, so salvation can't be attained in that way. The primary reason for His perfect life was so He would be a worthy sacrifice for sin. The sacrificial system always required the animal offered to be without spot or blemish...they couldn't just go find some sick animal that was otherwise useless to them to sacrifice. It had to be the best of the best. That is why Jesus is a worthy sacrifice for all sin...because He was perfect. 1 Peter 1: 18-19 "For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect." Colossians 1:19 and 20 tell us Jesus made peace for us, through His blood shed on the cross. Acts 20:28 tells us He bought the church with His own blood. 1 John 1:17 tells us we are purified from all sin by His blood. Revelation 7:14 tells us our robes are washed white in the blood of the Lamb. The night before Jesus died on the cross, He said "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you” (Luke 22:20). You can't just substitute the word "life" in place for the word "blood" in these verses. When these verses say blood, they mean blood...literal blood. Blood has always been necessary as an atonement for sin. And Jesus, the perfect Lamb, shed His blood for us on the cross. It is in that, and only that, that we have any hope of salvation...that is the only answer for our sin. Hiya baf86 Firstly thank you for taking the time to write all that. But I have to go with what's right in my heart as you do in yours One problem I see with the old testament sacrifices and Jesus' death on the cross is the people who made sacrifices in the old testament were Gods holy priests. Jesus' death was committed by people who were under the influence of Satan. I can't see this as being done by the will of a holy loving God. To close his eyes and forsake Jesus when he needed him most, Jesus who had never sinned, God said he would never leave us or forsake us, I can never ever see him forsake Jesus when he needed him most, i don't believe that God did this, he was strengthening Jesus as he does with us when we need him most. What loving father would do such a thing? Even Jesus himself said it was wrong to kill him in John 7 and John 8. There is nothing holy about it, except for Jesus himself, who endured to the end fulfilling all prophecies and denying Satan until his last breath. Showing love, mercy and compassion saying father forgive them for they know not what they do. Even for Jesus to say this shows it was sinful and wrong as he's asking God to forgive them. And Peter didn't say Jesus died on the cross to save us. He said if they had on known, they would not have killed the prince of life. If Peter said that, then it was wrong to kill Jesus. I know Jesus had to go through everything Satan threw at him, even the death on the cross. But, I don't believe it's 'that which saved us, I believe he had to go through everything Satan threw at him and overcome him showing love and mercy. I believe it as it said in the bible, we are reconciled by his death, but saved by his life. Also, he didn't come into the world to be crucified as many say, he came to bring the truth. In Jesus' own words John 18 To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. As I said, we must go with what's right in our own hearts before God. And I truly believe in my heart that Jesus came to live, show us the way and the truth and he is the life. And this was the purpose in his coming, and if we believe on him and follow him, then we are saved daily as we die daily by the spirit. And we must endure to the end and take whatever Satan throws at us and keep our faith showing love and compassion. And we can overcome, because Christ who is in us, is stronger than Satan and Christ has overcome the world and he will help us to do so also. Hi maryhig! Thanks for responding! Like Ross said, I wouldn't go by what you believe "in your heart"...and certainly not when it contradicts scripture! Scripture tells us the heart is deceitfully wicked above all things! How much better to go by what the Word of God tells us is true! Jesus' death on the cross was absolutely carried about by evil men. That does not mean that God's hand was not in it. Do you not trust in God's sovereignty? That even though there is evil in the world, God is still ultimately in control, working all things for our good and His glory? Jesus' death on the cross was clearly prophesied throughout scripture...it was most certainly a part of God's plan! He fulfilled over 300 prophecies! Re: the Old Testament priests...they would enter the Holiest of Holies once a year, and never without blood to offer as a sacrifice for sin. The Bible refers to Jesus as our Great High Priest, and Him symbolically entering the Holiest of Holies with His own blood as our atonement for sin, once for all. Hebrews 9:11-12 makes this clear: "But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption." As far as God forsaking Jesus...Jesus words "My God, why have you forsaken me" were also prophesied in Psalms 22:1. Clearly God always approved of Jesus, always loved Jesus. Jesus was innocent and perfect...He'd never done anything to forfeit God's favor. So in that sense He didn't "forsake" Him. But scripture makes it clear that Jesus took our sin upon Him, He BECAME sin for us, upon the cross. Isaiah 53:4-5, Galatians 3:13 and 2 Corinthians 5:21 illustrate that point. Jesus became sin for us, and sin creates a division between the sinner and God. So He felt the loneliness and abandonment that sin produces. It wasn't His sin, it was ours. God did glorify His son in raising Him from the dead, He did not turn His back on Him (1 Peter 1:21). Like you said, we sin but God does not forsake us! I'm curious: if you don't believe the cross had any part in God's plan for our salvation, how do you interpret these verses? At what point did Jesus become sin for us? At what point did He take our sin upon Himself so that we no longer bear it? At what point did He take God's wrath for our sin so that we don't have to experience it? It does no good to question how a loving Father could do such a thing. That was part of God's plan from the beginning...it is clearly prophesied in the Old Testament. We are not God, we don't think the way He does or see all that He sees. It's certainly not our job to question why He does things...it comes down to do you believe God is a loving Father or not? You can focus on what you see as evidence that He is not (and many do), or you can choose to believe what the Bible says: that He IS a God of love, even when we don't understand from our (limited and flawed) human reasoning. He is also a holy and just God, and He cannot tolerate sin. The wages of sin is death. This is why we need a sacrifice...which was accomplished for us in Jesus shedding His blood for us on the cross. The verse you semi-quoted, John 14:6, does not say anything about Jesus "showing" us the way...it actually says that He IS the way. He is the literal path from earth to heaven...our mediator, our only access to a holy God. If you believe there is nothing holy in the cross, and you don't believe it has anything to do with your salvation, how do you reconcile verses like 1 Corinthians 1:18 "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."? What do you think the "message of the cross" is if it doesn't have any part in the Gospel message, no part in our salvation? And Colossians 1:19 and 20 "For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross."? Scripture says that what you see as incomprehensible for a loving God to do, and what you see as the unholy work of satan, the Bible says is the power of God for those who are saved, and that His blood on the cross made peace!!! That's pretty significant, wouldn't you say? I didn't start this conversation, nor am I continuing it, with the purpose of being argumentative or with the desire to debate. I respect you, and you sharing your beliefs here! But the scripture is very clear that Jesus death on the cross is very significant in our salvation - our sins are washed away in the blood of Christ, our dirty rags are washed white. Out of love, I have to tell you this...without the shed blood of Jesus on the cross, there is no forgiveness for sins. That is not what I believe in my own heart to be right, it is what the Bible says...and says very clearly: Hebrews 9:22 "In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." Matthew 26:28 and Ephesians 1:7 also mention this fact! Like Ross, I too am curious as where these beliefs originated from! Do you have ministers or preachers who currently teach this way? Or are these thoughts/ideas that are shared by members of your church in your meetings? They certainly are beliefs that are completely contradictory to what the vast majority of Christians have believed for centuries, which is why I'm curious.
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Post by maryhig on Jan 13, 2016 2:40:25 GMT -5
Hiya baf86 Firstly thank you for taking the time to write all that. But I have to go with what's right in my heart as you do in yours One problem I see with the old testament sacrifices and Jesus' death on the cross is the people who made sacrifices in the old testament were Gods holy priests. Jesus' death was committed by people who were under the influence of Satan. I can't see this as being done by the will of a holy loving God. To close his eyes and forsake Jesus when he needed him most, Jesus who had never sinned, God said he would never leave us or forsake us, I can never ever see him forsake Jesus when he needed him most, i don't believe that God did this, he was strengthening Jesus as he does with us when we need him most. What loving father would do such a thing? Even Jesus himself said it was wrong to kill him in John 7 and John 8. There is nothing holy about it, except for Jesus himself, who endured to the end fulfilling all prophecies and denying Satan until his last breath. Showing love, mercy and compassion saying father forgive them for they know not what they do. Even for Jesus to say this shows it was sinful and wrong as he's asking God to forgive them. And Peter didn't say Jesus died on the cross to save us. He said if they had on known, they would not have killed the prince of life. If Peter said that, then it was wrong to kill Jesus. I know Jesus had to go through everything Satan threw at him, even the death on the cross. But, I don't believe it's 'that which saved us, I believe he had to go through everything Satan threw at him and overcome him showing love and mercy. I believe it as it said in the bible, we are reconciled by his death, but saved by his life. Also, he didn't come into the world to be crucified as many say, he came to bring the truth. In Jesus' own words John 18 To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. As I said, we must go with what's right in our own hearts before God. And I truly believe in my heart that Jesus came to live, show us the way and the truth and he is the life. And this was the purpose in his coming, and if we believe on him and follow him, then we are saved daily as we die daily by the spirit. And we must endure to the end and take whatever Satan throws at us and keep our faith showing love and compassion. And we can overcome, because Christ who is in us, is stronger than Satan and Christ has overcome the world and he will help us to do so also. Hi maryhig! Thanks for responding! Like Ross said, I wouldn't go by what you believe "in your heart"...and certainly not when it contradicts scripture! Scripture tells us the heart is deceitfully wicked above all things! How much better to go by what the Word of God tells us is true! Jesus' death on the cross was absolutely carried about by evil men. That does not mean that God's hand was not in it. Do you not trust in God's sovereignty? That even though there is evil in the world, God is still ultimately in control, working all things for our good and His glory? Jesus' death on the cross was clearly prophesied throughout scripture...it was most certainly a part of God's plan! He fulfilled over 300 prophecies! Re: the Old Testament priests...they would enter the Holiest of Holies once a year, and never without blood to offer as a sacrifice for sin. The Bible refers to Jesus as our Great High Priest, and Him symbolically entering the Holiest of Holies with His own blood as our atonement for sin, once for all. Hebrews 9:11-12 makes this clear: "But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption." As far as God forsaking Jesus...Jesus words "My God, why have you forsaken me" were also prophesied in Psalms 22:1. Clearly God always approved of Jesus, always loved Jesus. Jesus was innocent and perfect...He'd never done anything to forfeit God's favor. So in that sense He didn't "forsake" Him. But scripture makes it clear that Jesus took our sin upon Him, He BECAME sin for us, upon the cross. Isaiah 53:4-5, Galatians 3:13 and 2 Corinthians 5:21 illustrate that point. Jesus became sin for us, and sin creates a division between the sinner and God. So He felt the loneliness and abandonment that sin produces. It wasn't His sin, it was ours. God did glorify His son in raising Him from the dead, He did not turn His back on Him (1 Peter 1:21). Like you said, we sin but God does not forsake us! I'm curious: if you don't believe the cross had any part in God's plan for our salvation, how do you interpret these verses? At what point did Jesus become sin for us? At what point did He take our sin upon Himself so that we no longer bear it? At what point did He take God's wrath for our sin so that we don't have to experience it? It does no good to question how a loving Father could do such a thing. That was part of God's plan from the beginning...it is clearly prophesied in the Old Testament. We are not God, we don't think the way He does or see all that He sees. It's certainly not our job to question why He does things...it comes down to do you believe God is a loving Father or not? You can focus on what you see as evidence that He is not (and many do), or you can choose to believe what the Bible says: that He IS a God of love, even when we don't understand from our (limited and flawed) human reasoning. He is also a holy and just God, and He cannot tolerate sin. The wages of sin is death. This is why we need a sacrifice...which was accomplished for us in Jesus shedding His blood for us on the cross. The verse you semi-quoted, John 14:6, does not say anything about Jesus "showing" us the way...it actually says that He IS the way. He is the literal path from earth to heaven...our mediator, our only access to a holy God. If you believe there is nothing holy in the cross, and you don't believe it has anything to do with your salvation, how do you reconcile verses like 1 Corinthians 1:18 "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."? What do you think the "message of the cross" is if it doesn't have any part in the Gospel message, no part in our salvation? And Colossians 1:19 and 20 "For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross."? Scripture says that what you see as incomprehensible for a loving God to do, and what you see as the unholy work of satan, the Bible says is the power of God for those who are saved, and that His blood on the cross made peace!!! That's pretty significant, wouldn't you say? I didn't start this conversation, nor am I continuing it, with the purpose of being argumentative or with the desire to debate. I respect you, and you sharing your beliefs here! But the scripture is very clear that Jesus death on the cross is very significant in our salvation - our sins are washed away in the blood of Christ, our dirty rags are washed white. Out of love, I have to tell you this...without the shed blood of Jesus on the cross, there is no forgiveness for sins. That is not what I believe in my own heart to be right, it is what the Bible says...and says very clearly: Hebrews 9:22 "In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." Matthew 26:28 and Ephesians 1:7 also mention this fact! Like Ross, I too am curious as where these beliefs originated from! Do you have ministers or preachers who currently teach this way? Or are these thoughts/ideas that are shared by members of your church in your meetings? They certainly are beliefs that are completely contradictory to what the vast majority of Christians have believed for centuries, which is why I'm curious. I could go through your post and answer every question and say yet again why I believe the way I do, but there is no point in me going over this again here. I've gone into depth about it and we agree very differently. No matter what I say, it will make no difference. You believe what you see as right. As do I. My faith doesn't centre around the crucifixion of Jesus. It centres round his life, it seems to me that to most Christians the crucifixion is the centre of there doctrine and faith. To me and all our meeting, it's his life. This is why i say i am a Christian in that i follow Jesus, but I'm not a Christian who's faith has the crucifixion as it's central belief for salvation. I have seen it been said many times here that Jesus came to be crucified on the cross to save us. Yet Jesus himself said that he came to bring the truth in John 18. Yes it was prophesied, because God knew what Satan would do to Jesus when he was here. And he fulfilled those prophesies and endured to the end, keeping his faith and not sinning. But that doesn't mean that the crucifixion saves us. It said clearly in the bible that it is by his life we are saved. (Romans 5) I am not making that up. After I spoke on here last night, I was pondering and I went to God, I read my bible randomly and opened up at luke 4. Here I read this. And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. The eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. Also in verse 43 and the people sought him, and came unto him, and stayed him, that he should not depart from them. And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent. And he preached in the synagogues of Galilee. These things are the reason Jesus came and it said in verse 43 that to preach the gospel is what Jesus was sent for, not to be crucified to save us. He came to be a witness of the truth, to preach the gospel, to heal the broken hearted, give sight to the blind, set liberty those that are bruised. He came to show us the love of God fully through him. And yes he is the way. And those who believe on him shall be saved, cleansed of there past sins and shall be forgiven them and they shall be saved from them. Because if we hadn't have believed and had carried on, then those sins would still be upon us. I also believe that we must endure to the end to be eternally saved. As it says in the bible. I don't just go along believing whatever I think right. What I say, is also in the scriptures. And as long as I am receiving revelation from God, I know he's with me. When I stop receiving revelation, then I will know I've gone wrong. As I have said before, we also must take up our cross and follow Jesus. So the cross that Jesus bore, is also the cross that we must bare. Which isn't a wooden one, Paul also said he was crucified with Christ. He wasn't literally crucified. His flesh was put to death. And he suffered like Jesus suffered. But Christ strengthened him. You must believe what you will. I believe Jesus came as an example to show us the way. And he is the only way. The only truth and the only life. I won't go into the crucifixion anymore with you. Because I'm not going to argue over it. If you feel I'm wrong, then so be it. But I must go with what I believe to be right to me. Not to you, or anyone else.
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Post by blandie on Jan 13, 2016 5:37:15 GMT -5
My faith doesn't centre around the crucifixion of Jesus. It centres round his life, it seems to me that to most Christians the crucifixion is the centre of there doctrine and faith. To me and all our meeting, it's his life. This is why i say i am a Christian in that i follow Jesus, but I'm not a Christian who's faith has the crucifixion as it's central belief for salvation. I have seen it been said many times here that Jesus came to be crucified on the cross to save us. Yet Jesus himself said that he came to bring the truth in John 18. Yes it was prophesied, because God knew what Satan would do to Jesus when he was here. And he fulfilled those prophesies and endured to the end, keeping his faith and not sinning. But that doesn't mean that the crucifixion saves us. It said clearly in the bible that it is by his life we are saved. (Romans 5) I am not making that up. You are wrong that other christians do not also emphasize his life - but not because we can become worthy thru our efforts but because our justification comes from his righteous life and not ours - ' therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him but for us also to whom it shall be imputed if we believe on him that raised up jesus our lord from the dead - who was delivered for our offences and was raised again for our justification.' The thing that strikes me about the works based belief is that it assumes that we can earn worthiness and work our way into being just like christ. It comes across like those hedge fund magnates who look at everyone who doesn't have 100 million in the bank as lazy and/or lacking in smarts or otherwise deficient. Its a form of arrogance and legalistic distraction into self-merit that demeans christ along the way so its very convenient to lower him to our level and make his substitutionary life and death ' of none effect.' It also fits right in with only-wayism - we're the ones with the truth and staying faithful to the right pattern and following the only true way and keeping on that track only will perfect us and our efforts to toe that line will make us worthy. And it also makes it easier to demean others. Instead of seeing them all as fellow sinners who are just as deserving of death as we - whether they are full of good efforts or not. None of us is ever righteous from our own works and none of us will ever achieve worthiness through self-efforts and none of us will ever deserve salvation. Nor can any of our works earn righteousness or salvation or worthiness - and throwing away the gift of his righteous life and unmerited salvation thru his propitiary sacrifice in preference to showing our own worthiness and self-sacrifice is a sad road doomed to failure. He did indeed come as a sacrifice on the cross for sin just as the prophets said of him - and he said ' for this cause came I unto this hour' and he also came as a sacrifice for our sin and not to show us how to be perfect - ' he is the propitiation for our sins - and not for ours only - but also for the sins of the whole world.' Denying his cross and his righteous life in preference to relying on a cross of our own bearing and working to establish our own righteousness is not what the bible teaches - were it possible thru works to become worthy of salvation then he need not have come because men are no more able to become worthy than ever they were. Depending on self-effort and self-worthiness is not the same as depending on jesus. Will I-ism runs deep.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2016 9:22:18 GMT -5
Hi maryhig! Thanks for responding! Like Ross said, I wouldn't go by what you believe "in your heart"...and certainly not when it contradicts scripture! Scripture tells us the heart is deceitfully wicked above all things! How much better to go by what the Word of God tells us is true! Jesus' death on the cross was absolutely carried about by evil men. That does not mean that God's hand was not in it. Do you not trust in God's sovereignty? That even though there is evil in the world, God is still ultimately in control, working all things for our good and His glory? Jesus' death on the cross was clearly prophesied throughout scripture...it was most certainly a part of God's plan! He fulfilled over 300 prophecies! Re: the Old Testament priests...they would enter the Holiest of Holies once a year, and never without blood to offer as a sacrifice for sin. The Bible refers to Jesus as our Great High Priest, and Him symbolically entering the Holiest of Holies with His own blood as our atonement for sin, once for all. Hebrews 9:11-12 makes this clear: "But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption." As far as God forsaking Jesus...Jesus words "My God, why have you forsaken me" were also prophesied in Psalms 22:1. Clearly God always approved of Jesus, always loved Jesus. Jesus was innocent and perfect...He'd never done anything to forfeit God's favor. So in that sense He didn't "forsake" Him. But scripture makes it clear that Jesus took our sin upon Him, He BECAME sin for us, upon the cross. Isaiah 53:4-5, Galatians 3:13 and 2 Corinthians 5:21 illustrate that point. Jesus became sin for us, and sin creates a division between the sinner and God. So He felt the loneliness and abandonment that sin produces. It wasn't His sin, it was ours. God did glorify His son in raising Him from the dead, He did not turn His back on Him (1 Peter 1:21). Like you said, we sin but God does not forsake us! I'm curious: if you don't believe the cross had any part in God's plan for our salvation, how do you interpret these verses? At what point did Jesus become sin for us? At what point did He take our sin upon Himself so that we no longer bear it? At what point did He take God's wrath for our sin so that we don't have to experience it? It does no good to question how a loving Father could do such a thing. That was part of God's plan from the beginning...it is clearly prophesied in the Old Testament. We are not God, we don't think the way He does or see all that He sees. It's certainly not our job to question why He does things...it comes down to do you believe God is a loving Father or not? You can focus on what you see as evidence that He is not (and many do), or you can choose to believe what the Bible says: that He IS a God of love, even when we don't understand from our (limited and flawed) human reasoning. He is also a holy and just God, and He cannot tolerate sin. The wages of sin is death. This is why we need a sacrifice...which was accomplished for us in Jesus shedding His blood for us on the cross. The verse you semi-quoted, John 14:6, does not say anything about Jesus "showing" us the way...it actually says that He IS the way. He is the literal path from earth to heaven...our mediator, our only access to a holy God. If you believe there is nothing holy in the cross, and you don't believe it has anything to do with your salvation, how do you reconcile verses like 1 Corinthians 1:18 "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."? What do you think the "message of the cross" is if it doesn't have any part in the Gospel message, no part in our salvation? And Colossians 1:19 and 20 "For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross."? Scripture says that what you see as incomprehensible for a loving God to do, and what you see as the unholy work of satan, the Bible says is the power of God for those who are saved, and that His blood on the cross made peace!!! That's pretty significant, wouldn't you say? I didn't start this conversation, nor am I continuing it, with the purpose of being argumentative or with the desire to debate. I respect you, and you sharing your beliefs here! But the scripture is very clear that Jesus death on the cross is very significant in our salvation - our sins are washed away in the blood of Christ, our dirty rags are washed white. Out of love, I have to tell you this...without the shed blood of Jesus on the cross, there is no forgiveness for sins. That is not what I believe in my own heart to be right, it is what the Bible says...and says very clearly: Hebrews 9:22 "In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." Matthew 26:28 and Ephesians 1:7 also mention this fact! Like Ross, I too am curious as where these beliefs originated from! Do you have ministers or preachers who currently teach this way? Or are these thoughts/ideas that are shared by members of your church in your meetings? They certainly are beliefs that are completely contradictory to what the vast majority of Christians have believed for centuries, which is why I'm curious. I could go through your post and answer every question and say yet again why I believe the way I do, but there is no point in me going over this again here. I've gone into depth about it and we agree very differently. No matter what I say, it will make no difference. You believe what you see as right. As do I. My faith doesn't centre around the crucifixion of Jesus. It centres round his life, it seems to me that to most Christians the crucifixion is the centre of there doctrine and faith. To me and all our meeting, it's his life. This is why i say i am a Christian in that i follow Jesus, but I'm not a Christian who's faith has the crucifixion as it's central belief for salvation. I have seen it been said many times here that Jesus came to be crucified on the cross to save us. Yet Jesus himself said that he came to bring the truth in John 18. Yes it was prophesied, because God knew what Satan would do to Jesus when he was here. And he fulfilled those prophesies and endured to the end, keeping his faith and not sinning. But that doesn't mean that the crucifixion saves us. It said clearly in the bible that it is by his life we are saved. (Romans 5) I am not making that up. After I spoke on here last night, I was pondering and I went to God, I read my bible randomly and opened up at luke 4. Here I read this. And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. The eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. Also in verse 43 and the people sought him, and came unto him, and stayed him, that he should not depart from them. And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent. And he preached in the synagogues of Galilee. These things are the reason Jesus came and it said in verse 43 that to preach the gospel is what Jesus was sent for, not to be crucified to save us. He came to be a witness of the truth, to preach the gospel, to heal the broken hearted, give sight to the blind, set liberty those that are bruised. He came to show us the love of God fully through him. And yes he is the way. And those who believe on him shall be saved, cleansed of there past sins and shall be forgiven them and they shall be saved from them. Because if we hadn't have believed and had carried on, then those sins would still be upon us. I also believe that we must endure to the end to be eternally saved. As it says in the bible. I don't just go along believing whatever I think right. What I say, is also in the scriptures. And as long as I am receiving revelation from God, I know he's with me. When I stop receiving revelation, then I will know I've gone wrong. As I have said before, we also must take up our cross and follow Jesus. So the cross that Jesus bore, is also the cross that we must bare. Which isn't a wooden one, Paul also said he was crucified with Christ. He wasn't literally crucified. His flesh was put to death. And he suffered like Jesus suffered. But Christ strengthened him. You must believe what you will. I believe Jesus came as an example to show us the way. And he is the only way. The only truth and the only life. I won't go into the crucifixion anymore with you. Because I'm not going to argue over it. If you feel I'm wrong, then so be it. But I must go with what I believe to be right to me. Not to you, or anyone else. I wish you would have answered my questions...at least addressed the scripture I shared that speaks of the cross bringing peace and being the power of God to those who are saved. Those are pretty powerful verses...and pretty clear! I'm very curious on your thoughts on those verses! I'm familiar with the verses you shared in Romans 5...vs 6-11 "You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation." I don't see those as being a contradiction at all to the Christian concept of the cross of Christ bringing forgiveness of sins...in fact, those verses support it! It talks about Christ dying for us, and us being justified by His blood, saved from God's wrath because of Him! The only way we could be reconciled to God was through the death of His Son! When it talks of being saved by His life, I take that to mean His resurrection...He conquered sin for us by shedding His blood on the cross, and He conquered death for us by rising again. His blood reconciled us back to God...He was the sacrifice for our sins so that we could attain forgiveness. So sin no longer has dominion over us. And in rising again, He showed that death also has no grip on us...we are saved from sin and death because He died and rose again! God won't ever reveal anything to anyone that contradicts His Word in scripture! He will certainly reveal to us a clearer understanding of Himself through scripture, but there are no new revelations that we are given that contain new information from what is in scripture. I'm sorry you feel this is an argument...I certainly don't feel that way! More of a healthy discussion! There is a very important reason that the crucifixion is one of the central themes of Christianity, why it is an essential doctrine. Because without the shed blood of Jesus, there is NO forgiveness of sins!!! It has ALWAYS been that way, all throughout the Old Testament you can read of all the animals sacrificed...the blood spread on the altar for the atonement of sin. That was symbolically pointing us to the sacrificial death of Jesus. It has nothing to do with how I "feel" about anything, or what I believe to be right in my own understanding...it is the truth of God's Word, it is clearly and plainly stated in scripture.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2016 12:43:55 GMT -5
Maryhig is absolutely right in that it is our life that God requires. To follow the life of Christ in his way, truth and life in order to come to the Father.
We could follow Christ to the end, but without atonement for our sins, we would still be unacceptable to God.
1 Jock 1 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 b] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.[/b]
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
[/i]
I am not aware of any scriptural reference in which the blood of Christ doesn't actually mean his blood. As I see it, living the life of Christ is essential for salvation. If we do this, his blood sacrifice will atone for our unrighteousness.
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Post by blandie on Jan 13, 2016 13:13:04 GMT -5
Yes its literally christ's blood. We also read in the same book that 'whosoever is born of god sinneth not' - he even says it twice for emphasis. Yet 'if we say that we have not sinned we make him a liar.' Sinlessness isn't something we can produce by our efforts. It would be a contradiction except for god's doing and god's provision - not that we achieve perfection but that he forgave and provided both the righteous life and covering sacrifice in our steads even 'while we were yet enemies' and before we committed sin and living a sinless life like he did was NOT a condition - 'if any man sin we have an advocate with the father - jesus christ the righteous - and he is the propitiation for our sins - and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.' Its not our working to become worthy but a result of his provision - 'after you have suffered for a little while the god of all grace who called you to his eternal glory in christ will himself perfect confirm strengthen and establish you.'
Self-worthiness doesn't work any better for anyone now than it did for the scribes and pharisees or anyone else - 'for they being ignorant of god's righteousness and going about to establish their own righteousness have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of god.'
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2016 14:39:38 GMT -5
Maryhig is absolutely right in that it is our life that God requires. To follow the life of Christ in his way, truth and life in order to come to the Father. We could follow Christ to the end, but without atonement for our sins, we would still be unacceptable to God. 1 Jock 1 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 b] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.[/b] 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. [/i] I am not aware of any scriptural reference in which the blood of Christ doesn't actually mean his blood. As I see it, living the life of Christ is essential for salvation. If we do this, his blood sacrifice will atone for our unrighteousness. [/quote] So how good at living the Christ life do we have to be before His blood covers us? Like at least half the time we have to act like Jesus? More? Less? If we're not acting like Christ in a particular moment, and our unrighteousness isn't covered, if Jesus comes back right then its to hell for us? If it depends on me and my ability to live the life of Christ, I'm hopelessly lost. As is the case for all of us here... Oh, and again...the verse does not say Jesus HAS a way...it says He IS the way. That's a very important distinction......
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2016 18:26:31 GMT -5
Maryhig is absolutely right in that it is our life that God requires. To follow the life of Christ in his way, truth and life in order to come to the Father. We could follow Christ to the end, but without atonement for our sins, we would still be unacceptable to God. 1 Jock 1 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 b] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.[/b] 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. [/i] I am not aware of any scriptural reference in which the blood of Christ doesn't actually mean his blood. As I see it, living the life of Christ is essential for salvation. If we do this, his blood sacrifice will atone for our unrighteousness. [/quote] So how good at living the Christ life do we have to be before His blood covers us? Like at least half the time we have to act like Jesus? More? Less? If we're not acting like Christ in a particular moment, and our unrighteousness isn't covered, if Jesus comes back right then its to hell for us? If it depends on me and my ability to live the life of Christ, I'm hopelessly lost. As is the case for all of us here... Oh, and again...the verse does not say Jesus HAS a way...it says He IS the way. That's a very important distinction...... [/quote] Beth, clearly you have NOT been following my posts, or you misunderstand me. It is my belief that Jesus' sacrificial death on the cross made "provision" for the atonement of the sins of the whole world, so that "everyone" who believed in Jesus Christ could be saved and not perish. If we believe in Jesus and follow him in his way, truth and life we come to the Father. We will fail along the way, but Jesus has made "provision" through his blood sacrifice to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, those who follow him. Yes, most certainly Jesus is the way. No one said "Has a way." He shows us the way, truth and life which pleases God. We are to walk in the light as he is in the light. Seeking to follow the example of Jesus avails us of his provision for the cleansing of our sins.
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Post by maryhig on Jan 13, 2016 19:11:39 GMT -5
I have decided through pondering and listening to my conscience not to post anymore regarding the crucifixion of Christ. I have faith in God and I leave it all in his hands. I truly believe that the way I believe is true. And will carry on in my faith and my beliefs, unless God shows me differently.
Anyway. I was in my mums earlier and I was washing her dishes, the water from the tap was running and as I emptied the bowl of dirty water, a bit of dirty water was left behind in the bowl but as the clean water ran into it, it started to clear. And I saw that whatever we believe, if we have the spirit within us, and the word of God constantly refreshing our hearts, then anything that we understand in the wrong way (especially myself) God will put right and it will become clear to us with patience. As long as we love him, always live by his will, and not our own will and obey his word and follow Jesus.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2016 15:22:37 GMT -5
I came across this article today and thought it was spot on...figured it would fit in well with this conversation, so I'll share it. The article is called What's the Difference Between Holiness and Legalism? Here is the link to it...I'll post a couple paragraphs from it below, but it's definitely worth reading the whole thing. It's not very long! www.charismanews.com/opinion/38702-whats-the-difference-between-holiness-and-legalism"Legalism is rules without relationship, emphasizing standards more than the Savior, and laws more than love. It is a system based on fear and characterized by joyless judgmentalism, producing futility instead of freedom. To an unsaved person, the legalist preaches justification by works, saying, “You’re a wicked sinner and you need to get rid of all your filthy habits if you want the Lord to accept you.” There is no grace in this message; no exalting of the life-changing, sin-cleansing power of the blood of Jesus; no clear proclamation of mercy. The declaration of God’s love expressed through the cross is muffled, if it is even heard at all. Consequently, the proof of the new birth is seen almost entirely in what someone no longer does, and this continues to be the pattern for believers within the church: They are judged almost entirely by a few external standards (which, in many cases, are not even expressly mentioned in the Word) and they are monitored by conformity to the particular group’s code of conduct. The result is external conformity rather than inward transformation—and that means either self-righteousness or self-condemnation (or both!). In contrast, true, scriptural holiness begins with the heart and flows from an encounter with God and His Word. It calls for repentance in response to the Lord’s gracious offer of salvation and it offers a way to be holy — the blood of Jesus and the Spirit of God. Biblical holiness is free, although it requires discipline and perseverance. For the legalist, nothing is free. Everything must be earned! That’s why legalism leads to bondage and holiness leads to liberty. As Dr. Kent Hughes expressed in his book Disciplines of a Godly Man, “There is a universe of difference between the motivations behind legalism and discipline. Legalism says, ‘I will do this thing to gain merit with God,’ while discipline says, ‘I will do this because I love God and want to please him.’ Legalism is man-centered; discipline is God-centered.” Flee from legalism, stay far away from license, and run to holiness. Reject humanly birthed, external religion. Give no place to false teaching that excuses carnality, and instead, embrace new covenant, heart transformation—and in the power of the Spirit, supernaturally enabled by God’s grace, deal ruthlessly with sin in your life. That is the path to freedom!"
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Post by sunshine on Jan 24, 2016 20:23:56 GMT -5
We heard in meeting this morning about Christ being sent in the form of a man to fulfill God's OT prophesies of a savior coming to redeem mankind once and for all, through his shed blood, from sin forever. He had to be born as a human so he could bring truth, and also to physically die. God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit cannot die. Jesus was his human name,as fully human, but he was also fully divine, that is why his death could cleanse the whole world from sin. No other human can die and redeem the world. Also, He bore so much sin(past, present, and future) in those last hours on the cross that God had to turn away and forsake him as he experienced the results of sin. God hates sin.But then it was finished.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2016 21:12:51 GMT -5
Sunshine, was that spoken by a Washington State "worker?" If so, it would kind of support what I have expressed about our Lord, and what at least some of us have believed, wouldn't it?
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Post by sunshine on Jan 24, 2016 21:57:26 GMT -5
Sunshine, was that spoken by a Washington State "worker?" If so, it would kind of support what I have expressed about our Lord, and what at least some of us have believed, wouldn't it? Dennis, sorry it wasn't a worker, but one of the friends who really had their thoughts together. I kind of wish the workers would say things like that, though.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2016 22:09:48 GMT -5
Thank you, Sunshine. Agreed.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2016 4:12:09 GMT -5
Sunshine, was that spoken by a Washington State "worker?" If so, it would kind of support what I have expressed about our Lord, and what at least some of us have believed, wouldn't it? Dennis, sorry it wasn't a worker, but one of the friends who really had their thoughts together. I kind of wish the workers would say things like that, though. I am very glad that workers don't speak like that. This is just my opinion but I think there are a number of details in your earlier post which are erroneous.
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Post by sunshine on Jan 26, 2016 12:39:05 GMT -5
Dennis, sorry it wasn't a worker, but one of the friends who really had their thoughts together. I kind of wish the workers would say things like that, though. I am very glad that workers don't speak like that. This is just my opinion but I think there are a number of details in your earlier post which are erroneous. OK, what details do you feel are erroneous.....just curious and trying to learn what's truth and what is isn't ...This was actually a pretty unusual testimony for meeting....although I thought it made a lot of sense
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2016 14:35:10 GMT -5
I am very glad that workers don't speak like that. This is just my opinion but I think there are a number of details in your earlier post which are erroneous. OK, what details do you feel are erroneous.....just curious and trying to learn what's truth and what is isn't ...This was actually a pretty unusual testimony for meeting....although I thought it made a lot of sense Sunshine wrote: He had to be born as a human so he could bring truth, and also to physically die. God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit cannot die. Jesus was his human name,as fully human, but he was also fully divine, that is why his death could cleanse the whole world from sin. No other human can die and redeem the world.Sunshine, I will give you my belief. I have expressed it a lot more fully on other recent threads. It seems to me from what you write that the person who spoke in your meeting was influenced by trinitarian or similar type beliefs? I firmly believe that God is the Father and the Holy Spirit is his power or force. Jesus himself tells us that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the "Father." I believe Jesus to be the "human being" Son of God who came into being at his conception in Mary's womb. He pre-existed in the mind and plan of God from before time began. Before the World began, Jesus was a reality with God. God created all things through the reality of Jesus, by his Holy Spirit (power/force). Nowhere in scripture does it mention that Jesus was fully divine. That is a concoction of man. Throughout scripture God reveals his characteristics. His predominant characteristic is "Holiness" which is mentioned countless times. Nowhere does God describe himself as "divine." He never identifies with this term. Nowhere does God describe Jesus as being divine. Nowhere does Jesus or the NT writers describe either God or Jesus a being divine. The term divine is used very rarely in scripture and is used in a different context to that applied by theologians. The truth of all matters is contained in God's word. Jesus testified himself that he was an ordinary human being. He clearly stated that of himself he could do nothing, except by the Father. It was God working through him that the word of God and the deeds of God were expressed. In everything Jesus pointed to the Father. God raised up a perfect human being whom he sustained with his spirit and through whom he (God) spoke and worked. Jesus tells us that it was the Father's words he spoke and it was the Father who did the deeds. The terms "divine" and "divinity" are/were terms often used to describe the pagan or heathen gods, NOT the only true God of the Bible. The gross over-use and misuse of these terms to describe the one true, living God, is a ploy of Satan to cast both God and Jesus amongst the false gods and thus deceive the vast bulk of Christendom. Although I have much to say against some of the beliefs and the practices of the workers, fairness and need compels me to support them in their identity of whom God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are, for they are amongst the few remaining (imo), to portray them truthfully, with the caveat that I disagree that Jesus actually pre-existed in Heaven before his birth, except as a reality in the mind and plan of God. It is helpful to remember that "time" was created by God and therefore exists within "him" and not the other way around. Time is subject to God. He is not subject to time. By the way, Christ "did" die. Also, I challenge anyone to provide a passage from the Bible which states that Jesus was fully divine. Always trust in God rather than have confidence in man AND that includes me, all the more particularly so since I have challenged your post. Take the matter up sincerely with God, make yourself approved of him and carry out a study of these things and in time God will provide you with a beautiful sure revelation on these matter! PS The devil makes a lot of sense. It is one of his great tools of deception. He made a lot of sense to Adam and Eve and does exactly the same today, causing people to doubt or look outside of God's word. Learn to "abide" in the word of God and what he says. In this day and age and with modern understanding, the devil can actually appear more Christian than Christ!
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Post by slowtosee on Jan 26, 2016 23:12:31 GMT -5
Jesus self description -"Before Abraham was, I AM". "Lord, liar, or lunatic" Alvin
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2016 23:28:56 GMT -5
OK, what details do you feel are erroneous.....just curious and trying to learn what's truth and what is isn't ...This was actually a pretty unusual testimony for meeting....although I thought it made a lot of sense Sunshine wrote: He had to be born as a human so he could bring truth, and also to physically die. God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit cannot die. Jesus was his human name,as fully human, but he was also fully divine, that is why his death could cleanse the whole world from sin. No other human can die and redeem the world.Sunshine, I will give you my belief. I have expressed it a lot more fully on other recent threads. It seems to me from what you write that the person who spoke in your meeting was influenced by trinitarian or similar type beliefs? I firmly believe that God is the Father and the Holy Spirit is his power or force. Jesus himself tells us that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the "Father." I believe Jesus to be the "human being" Son of God who came into being at his conception in Mary's womb. He pre-existed in the mind and plan of God from before time began. Before the World began, Jesus was a reality with God. God created all things through the reality of Jesus, by his Holy Spirit (power/force). Nowhere in scripture does it mention that Jesus was fully divine. That is a concoction of man. Throughout scripture God reveals his characteristics. His predominant characteristic is "Holiness" which is mentioned countless times. Nowhere does God describe himself as "divine." He never identifies with this term. Nowhere does God describe Jesus as being divine. Nowhere does Jesus or the NT writers describe either God or Jesus a being divine. The term divine is used very rarely in scripture and is used in a different context to that applied by theologians. The truth of all matters is contained in God's word. Jesus testified himself that he was an ordinary human being. He clearly stated that of himself he could do nothing, except by the Father. It was God working through him that the word of God and the deeds of God were expressed. In everything Jesus pointed to the Father. God raised up a perfect human being whom he sustained with his spirit and through whom he (God) spoke and worked. Jesus tells us that it was the Father's words he spoke and it was the Father who did the deeds. The terms "divine" and "divinity" are/were terms often used to describe the pagan or heathen gods, NOT the only true God of the Bible. The gross over-use and misuse of these terms to describe the one true, living God, is a ploy of Satan to cast both God and Jesus amongst the false gods and thus deceive the vast bulk of Christendom. Although I have much to say against some of the beliefs and the practices of the workers, fairness and need compels me to support them in their identity of whom God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are, for they are amongst the few remaining (imo), to portray them truthfully, with the caveat that I disagree that Jesus actually pre-existed in Heaven before his birth, except as a reality in the mind and plan of God. It is helpful to remember that "time" was created by God and therefore exists within "him" and not the other way around. Time is subject to God. He is not subject to time. By the way, Christ "did" die. Also, I challenge anyone to provide a passage from the Bible which states that Jesus was fully divine. Always trust in God rather than have confidence in man AND that includes me, all the more particularly so since I have challenged your post. Take the matter up sincerely with God, make yourself approved of him and carry out a study of these things and in time God will provide you with a beautiful sure revelation on these matter! PS The devil makes a lot of sense. It is one of his great tools of deception. He made a lot of sense to Adam and Eve and does exactly the same today, causing people to doubt or look outside of God's word. Learn to "abide" in the word of God and what he says. In this day and age and with modern understanding, the devil can actually appear more Christian than Christ! 2Pe_1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
here it states he had divine power how can a being have divine power if they are not divine? how in this verse does divine allege pagan roots?
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Post by maryhig on Jan 27, 2016 4:10:11 GMT -5
Divine means from God, Jesus had a divine nature because he came from God. Not because he is God. Anyone with the holy spirit in the heart are partakers in the divine nature. But that does not make us God. There is one God, one mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus and one holy spirit who when we hear and believe and start to follow Jesus we become at one with Christ and the father. This is how we are at one and partakers of the divine nature. Because anything that proceeds from the mouth of God is holy and full of love, and Jesus was in the express image of God, thus showing the pure love of God through his life by denying his self will, being dead to the flesh so he could live for his father doing not his own fleshly will, but living by the will of God, the one and only holy living God. Who, for when we lay down our lives will pour his holy spirit into our hearts so that we are revived in the spirit being raised up with Christ and not dead in the flesh anymore, but alive in God and following Jesus living not by the will of man, but by the will of God!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2016 4:11:30 GMT -5
Wally scribed:
2Pe_1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
here it states he had divine power how can a being have divine power if they are not divine? how in this verse does divine allege pagan roots?
In other recent threads I've already covered this passage with its two references to "divine" along with the only other reference to "divine" which is mentioned in Hebrews. It is a term very rarely used throughout the scriptures and both God and Jesus AND the Apostles NEVER use it to describe the character of God or Jesus. It is a huge red herring of Christendom and has been introduced from paganism.
The term "divinity" like "trinity" is never mentioned in the Bible. The term "divine" derives from "divination" which is seriously condemned in the Bible. Where the term divine is used in Peter and Hebrews we have to understand its correct context and that is best seen in the original meaning of the word. Think of "water divining?" Searching out the hidden source of water using diving sticks or rods, etc. Divination in a spiritual context is searching out the hidden or unknown things in the spiritual world. This is a common practice with false deities and is loathed by God. He does NOT identify with this sort of thing. "Divine" does not mean some kind of supreme being in a true Godly sense, though the theologians have made it so, even to the point it had found its way into our dictionaries. "Divine" in a truly Godly sense is a reference to the hidden power or knowledge of God which God wants us to seek out for ourselves. God loves those who love him, those who seek him out. (paraphrased)
It would have been better if you had quoted the surrounding verses to the passage you quoted and you will see the term in its correct context!
2 Peter 1King James Version (KJV)
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
We can share in the "divine" power and nature (hidden) through seeking out God and acquiring it for ourselves. The theologian will tell you that only God is divine. However, we clearly see that in the only passages in the Bible where it mentions the term. we too can be divine through being partakers of the divine nature. The above passages clearly link "divine" in a Godly sense with (hidden) knowledge which comes by seeking it out.
Try using the term "divine" in the same context and percentage of usage it appears in the Bible. The theologians have made a false god out of "divinity." The only true God is an "Holy" God. Now that is a different matter entirely!
As an interesting aside, in your fellowship meeting circles, just listen to often the term "divinity" and "divine" are used amongst them. Compare this to the mainstream Christian world/theologians etc. I will let you draw your own conclusions on the results!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2016 4:24:02 GMT -5
Divine means from God, Jesus had a divine nature because he came from God. Not because he is God. Anyone with the holy spirit in the heart are partakers in the divine nature. But that does not make us God. There is one God, one mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus and one holy spirit who when we hear and believe and start to follow Jesus we become at one with Christ and the father. This is how we are at one and partakers of the divine nature. Because anything that proceeds from the mouth of God is holy and full of love, and Jesus was in the express image of God, thus showing the pure love of God through his life by denying his self will, being dead to the flesh so he could live for his father doing not his own fleshly will, but living by the will of God, the one and only holy living God. Who, for when we lay down our lives will pour his holy spirit into our hearts so that we are revived in the spirit being raised up with Christ and not dead in the flesh anymore, but alive in God and following Jesus living not by the will of man, but by the will of God! I agree with this, but with the caveat that the term "divine" does not apply "solely" to God. Yes God is the source of the hidden things of God that must be divinely sought out. However, as I mentioned in my reference to water divining, the source of the water is a "divine" source since it too must be sought out by divine methods (diving rods etc). Also the false spirits are a divine source of evil, which likewise can be sought out. A practice condemned in the Bible. People can and do get "divine" evil knowledge and power by seeking it out. That is the divination that is seriously condemned in the Bible. Understanding this, we can understand just why God never identifies "divinity" as part of his character. That term belongs to the false deities of paganism. God is an Holy God, not a divine one as understood and promoted by the Bible colleges and theologians.
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Post by maryhig on Jan 27, 2016 4:29:31 GMT -5
OK, what details do you feel are erroneous.....just curious and trying to learn what's truth and what is isn't ...This was actually a pretty unusual testimony for meeting....although I thought it made a lot of sense Sunshine wrote: He had to be born as a human so he could bring truth, and also to physically die. God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit cannot die. Jesus was his human name,as fully human, but he was also fully divine, that is why his death could cleanse the whole world from sin. No other human can die and redeem the world.Sunshine, I will give you my belief. I have expressed it a lot more fully on other recent threads. It seems to me from what you write that the person who spoke in your meeting was influenced by trinitarian or similar type beliefs? I firmly believe that God is the Father and the Holy Spirit is his power or force. Jesus himself tells us that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the "Father." I believe Jesus to be the "human being" Son of God who came into being at his conception in Mary's womb. He pre-existed in the mind and plan of God from before time began. Before the World began, Jesus was a reality with God. God created all things through the reality of Jesus, by his Holy Spirit (power/force). Nowhere in scripture does it mention that Jesus was fully divine. That is a concoction of man. Throughout scripture God reveals his characteristics. His predominant characteristic is "Holiness" which is mentioned countless times. Nowhere does God describe himself as "divine." He never identifies with this term. Nowhere does God describe Jesus as being divine. Nowhere does Jesus or the NT writers describe either God or Jesus a being divine. The term divine is used very rarely in scripture and is used in a different context to that applied by theologians. The truth of all matters is contained in God's word. Jesus testified himself that he was an ordinary human being. He clearly stated that of himself he could do nothing, except by the Father. It was God working through him that the word of God and the deeds of God were expressed. In everything Jesus pointed to the Father. God raised up a perfect human being whom he sustained with his spirit and through whom he (God) spoke and worked. Jesus tells us that it was the Father's words he spoke and it was the Father who did the deeds. The terms "divine" and "divinity" are/were terms often used to describe the pagan or heathen gods, NOT the only true God of the Bible. The gross over-use and misuse of these terms to describe the one true, living God, is a ploy of Satan to cast both God and Jesus amongst the false gods and thus deceive the vast bulk of Christendom. Although I have much to say against some of the beliefs and the practices of the workers, fairness and need compels me to support them in their identity of whom God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are, for they are amongst the few remaining (imo), to portray them truthfully, with the caveat that I disagree that Jesus actually pre-existed in Heaven before his birth, except as a reality in the mind and plan of God. It is helpful to remember that "time" was created by God and therefore exists within "him" and not the other way around. Time is subject to God. He is not subject to time. By the way, Christ "did" die. Also, I challenge anyone to provide a passage from the Bible which states that Jesus was fully divine. Always trust in God rather than have confidence in man AND that includes me, all the more particularly so since I have challenged your post. Take the matter up sincerely with God, make yourself approved of him and carry out a study of these things and in time God will provide you with a beautiful sure revelation on these matter! PS The devil makes a lot of sense. It is one of his great tools of deception. He made a lot of sense to Adam and Eve and does exactly the same today, causing people to doubt or look outside of God's word. Learn to "abide" in the word of God and what he says. In this day and age and with modern understanding, the devil can actually appear more Christian than Christ! Ram, I agree with many things you have said there. But can I ask you a question please. You seem to believe that Jesus wasn't with God before he came to earth. Do you mean the fleshly Jesus wasn't with God, but Christ was? Or that Christ wasn't with God? Thanks
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Post by maryhig on Jan 27, 2016 4:37:03 GMT -5
Divine means from God, Jesus had a divine nature because he came from God. Not because he is God. Anyone with the holy spirit in the heart are partakers in the divine nature. But that does not make us God. There is one God, one mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus and one holy spirit who when we hear and believe and start to follow Jesus we become at one with Christ and the father. This is how we are at one and partakers of the divine nature. Because anything that proceeds from the mouth of God is holy and full of love, and Jesus was in the express image of God, thus showing the pure love of God through his life by denying his self will, being dead to the flesh so he could live for his father doing not his own fleshly will, but living by the will of God, the one and only holy living God. Who, for when we lay down our lives will pour his holy spirit into our hearts so that we are revived in the spirit being raised up with Christ and not dead in the flesh anymore, but alive in God and following Jesus living not by the will of man, but by the will of God! I agree with this, but with the caveat that the term "divine" does not apply "solely" to God. Yes God is the source of the hidden things of God that must be divinely sought out. However, as I mentioned in my reference to water divining, the source of the water is a "divine" source since it too must be sought out by divine methods (diving rods etc). Also the false spirits are a divine source of evil, which likewise can be sought out. A practice condemned in the Bible. People can and do get "divine" evil knowledge and power by seeking it out. That is the divination that is seriously condemned in the Bible. Understanding this, we can understand just why God never identifies "divinity" as part of his character. That term belongs to the false deities of paganism. God is an Holy God, not a divine one as understood and promoted by the Bible colleges and theologians. I never ever use the word divine as relating to God, we never use the word in our meeting either. I am saying what I believe is the only way I see the word divine can be interpreted in the scriptures. As from a dictionary, to mean to come from God, and Jesus came from God but he isn't God. To me God is our holy father and the only true living God, Jesus who is the Christ is his son and the holy ghost has power that comes from God. Everything comes from God and he is over everything and everyone including Christ who is also subject to him.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2016 4:44:37 GMT -5
Sunshine wrote: He had to be born as a human so he could bring truth, and also to physically die. God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit cannot die. Jesus was his human name,as fully human, but he was also fully divine, that is why his death could cleanse the whole world from sin. No other human can die and redeem the world.Sunshine, I will give you my belief. I have expressed it a lot more fully on other recent threads. It seems to me from what you write that the person who spoke in your meeting was influenced by trinitarian or similar type beliefs? I firmly believe that God is the Father and the Holy Spirit is his power or force. Jesus himself tells us that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the "Father." I believe Jesus to be the "human being" Son of God who came into being at his conception in Mary's womb. He pre-existed in the mind and plan of God from before time began. Before the World began, Jesus was a reality with God. God created all things through the reality of Jesus, by his Holy Spirit (power/force). Nowhere in scripture does it mention that Jesus was fully divine. That is a concoction of man. Throughout scripture God reveals his characteristics. His predominant characteristic is "Holiness" which is mentioned countless times. Nowhere does God describe himself as "divine." He never identifies with this term. Nowhere does God describe Jesus as being divine. Nowhere does Jesus or the NT writers describe either God or Jesus a being divine. The term divine is used very rarely in scripture and is used in a different context to that applied by theologians. The truth of all matters is contained in God's word. Jesus testified himself that he was an ordinary human being. He clearly stated that of himself he could do nothing, except by the Father. It was God working through him that the word of God and the deeds of God were expressed. In everything Jesus pointed to the Father. God raised up a perfect human being whom he sustained with his spirit and through whom he (God) spoke and worked. Jesus tells us that it was the Father's words he spoke and it was the Father who did the deeds. The terms "divine" and "divinity" are/were terms often used to describe the pagan or heathen gods, NOT the only true God of the Bible. The gross over-use and misuse of these terms to describe the one true, living God, is a ploy of Satan to cast both God and Jesus amongst the false gods and thus deceive the vast bulk of Christendom. Although I have much to say against some of the beliefs and the practices of the workers, fairness and need compels me to support them in their identity of whom God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are, for they are amongst the few remaining (imo), to portray them truthfully, with the caveat that I disagree that Jesus actually pre-existed in Heaven before his birth, except as a reality in the mind and plan of God. It is helpful to remember that "time" was created by God and therefore exists within "him" and not the other way around. Time is subject to God. He is not subject to time. By the way, Christ "did" die. Also, I challenge anyone to provide a passage from the Bible which states that Jesus was fully divine. Always trust in God rather than have confidence in man AND that includes me, all the more particularly so since I have challenged your post. Take the matter up sincerely with God, make yourself approved of him and carry out a study of these things and in time God will provide you with a beautiful sure revelation on these matter! PS The devil makes a lot of sense. It is one of his great tools of deception. He made a lot of sense to Adam and Eve and does exactly the same today, causing people to doubt or look outside of God's word. Learn to "abide" in the word of God and what he says. In this day and age and with modern understanding, the devil can actually appear more Christian than Christ! Ram, I agree with many things you have said there. But can I ask you a question please. You seem to believe that Jesus wasn't with God before he can't to earth. Do you mean the fleshly Jesus wasn't with God, but Christ was? Or that Christ wasn't with God? Thanks My belief is that Jesus first came into actual being when he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of Mary. IMO Jesus was, is and always will be a human being, but now rules over the universe on his Father's behalf in his "glorified" human body and this human being will one day (soon?) return in this manner, the full expression of the glory of God, to receive his elect. Jesus existed in the "mind" and "plan" of God before the world or time began. When God plans something it is already a reality in his mind. It will come to pass in God's time. All things were created by God who is the Father, through Jesus Christ according to the mind and plan of God, by God's power, i.e. the Holy Spirit. God is not subject to time. He created time. Time operates within God, not the other way around. When God plans something, or speaks, it is a sure thing, it is a reality. God's words go out and do NOT return to him void. It returns to him having accomplished its purpose in HIS time and according to his plan. Some of his words spoken as a reality many centuries ago have still to return to him having accomplished their purpose. The state of the world nowadays suggests these words will be returning to God soon! To give you an example. I will paraphrase (at best). When Jesus prayed the night before he was crucified, for God to glorify him with the glory that he had with the Father before the world began, God had already glorified Jesus in his mind and plan, but Jesus had not yet received it. He was about to. This SAME glory Jesus then passes on to his disciples there and then, yet they would not receive it until they too entered life everlasting. It was the same glory and in the same context.
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