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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 29, 2015 18:53:00 GMT -5
Drop it, Nathan, while you're still ahead of the game. I know exactly how you settle matters and you don't want that discussed on here. I know all about your perverted concept of truth and loyalty, and you've been let off with enough foolishness already. Come on, Bob.... you made the claim and when I asked for fact to back it up, then you said drop it. So, remember next time don't make anymore claims when you can't back it up with evidences to show forth. Nathan, surely you know that posting people's full names on TMB without their consent is against the rules concerning privacy! You should know better than to even ask for that as any kind of proof!
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 29, 2015 19:05:56 GMT -5
I see exclusiveness as a major division. I wasn't aware there were non exclusive 2x2. They do sound like a kinder and gently variant of the 2x2 I knew. Time to update the website www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/29wmibook.php /----- 2x2 ---\ / \ / \ / \ exclusive 2x2 non exclusive 2x2 I tend to think of a non exclusive 2x2 in the 2x2 church in the same way I would view a straight man at a gay orgy. I'm happy to accept at face value his claim that he is straight, but I do wonder what on earth he is doing there. Of course, as a straight man, I have no desire to be at a gay orgy, however I'm quite sure I would be tolerated if I did decide to turn up ..... so long as I played along. It's always worth remembering that a gay orgy is still a gay orgy whether there are straight men there or not. Matt10 OK. You have a point, -however could you use a different analogy than calling it a straight man at a gay orgy? How about using the term a gay man at a "heterosexual couple-swapping orgy?"
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Post by jondough on Nov 29, 2015 19:29:19 GMT -5
Now you are starting to sound Non-exclusive. Be careful, you may have to leave the fellowship.
When did what the Workers believe start concerning you? Less than 1% - to none believe in your Trinity thinking, or any of your Thor, and Hollow earth stuff.
Now you just cancelled out what you said above. "Only God knows what is in their heart.....BUT.......If their heart is right, they will profess" So if They don't find a Worker and profess, their heart must be wrong....Here we go again. Judging them wrong if they don't eventually profess.
Does this passage mean anything to you?
38John said to Him, "Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us." 39But Jesus said, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me. 40"For he who is not against us is for us.…
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Post by jondough on Nov 29, 2015 19:56:30 GMT -5
Thanks for a definite answer. You're thinking that Maryhig is going to Hell....well......no more to be said about exlusive thinking. There was only one true way preached to heaven in my day. You could only be saved by hearing the workers preach the gospel to you. The only ones who had the true message were the ones that were sent & go as in the bible ie the workers. All other ways are false. Only a few will seek, and find that diamond in the field. All the rest are lost to hell. The exclusiveness was the allure. It's how you knew you found the one right way. If the 2x2 loose exclusivity, then I suspect they would soon die out. JMT As the younger generation comes of age, our fellowship will get more and more non-exclusive. There is just too much information out there to continue believing this. There is no reason for the fellowship to fade due to non-exclusivity. Many of the other old traditions will also fade with it. The result will be more focus on Christ and the weightier things that really matter.
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Post by jondough on Nov 29, 2015 19:58:55 GMT -5
Thanks for a definite answer. Your thinking that Maryhig is going to Hell (but you're going to Heaven)....well......no more to be said about exlusive thinking. I, for one, could not imagine Maryhig going to Hell. Neither can anyone else with one exception. Its a ridiculous notion.
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Post by jondough on Nov 29, 2015 20:33:38 GMT -5
1)Now you are starting to sound Non-exclusive. Be careful, you may have to leave the fellowship. haha, I don't think so. Jesus SAVES! the workers can't give anyone Salvation, they can only lead and point people Jesus, who can grant people forgiveness and SAVE them from their sins.2) When did what the Workers believe start concerning you? Less than 1% - to none believe in your Trinity thinking, or any of your Thor, and Hollow earth stuff. ~~ The workers and friends preach and worship the Trinity= Father, the Son and Holy Ghost every Sunday morning in our fellowship meetings around the world... so I wouldn't say 1%. They just don't like to use the Term Trinity or understand teaching/concipt of it that all, but they are Trinity worshipers.3) Now you just cancelled out what you said above. "Only God knows what is in their heart.....BUT.......If their heart is right, they will profess" So if They don't find a Worker and profess, their heart must be wrong....Here we go again. Judging them wrong if they don't eventually profess. Jesus said in John 10:27,26 " My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they shall follow me." I call them brothers and sisters but whether God accepts them as His sheep, it is all up to Him.4) Does this passage mean anything to you? John said to Him, "Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us." But Jesus said, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me. For he who is not against us is for us. Someone meant a disciple/saint/the friend... he was NOT following (Active in the ministry) like us.
The above verse meant the disciples/saints/the friends were NOT apostles active in the ministry/work but God has allow them/her the same authority/power to cast out demons. For he is NOT against us but for us. Read in the book of Acts there were disciples/followers such as Ananias who healed Paul. Philip Evangelist, preached, baptized, and performed miracles just like the apostles did..... "Do NOT hinder him, for there is no one will perform a miracle in my name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of me, for he is NOT against us but for us."
Most of outsiders converts came through the friends ministry words of mouth or their testimonies. Very few workers have gotten anyone comes to their gospel invitations. Many of people professed in the workers meetings are through the friends children. The friends word of mouth ministry have gotten most of the converts for the workers... Do NOT hinder the friends effective, powerful word of mouth/testimonies ministry!
Nathan, maybe you should re-read your TMB conversations with Review in regard to the Trinity. This may jog your memory on how the F&W feel about it. They simply view it as false doctrine. And that is exactly what they call it. The ironic thing is I remember you using Review as an example of a Worker that believes in the Trinity. That was, until you had a conversation with him about it. You talk about "wishy washy": Think about what you are posting Nathan. You state that you take a strong stance that you are exclusive. You state that you believe that a person must find the Workers and profess through them in order to be saved. This is what exclusive means. Then you post as you do above and state that you leave it up to God to decide. As if you don't know if they are saved or not. This is "wishy washy" at its best. Quote: " Do NOT hinder the friends effective, powerful word of mouth/testimonies ministry" Are you talking to me as if I would hinder them? I really hope not. Please tell me you are not insinuating that I would do this.
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Post by jondough on Nov 29, 2015 21:56:32 GMT -5
Nathan, maybe you should re-read your TMB conversations with Review in regard to the Trinity. This may jog your memory on how the F&W feel about it. They simply view it as false doctrine. And that is exactly what they call it. The ironic thing is I remember you using Review as an example of a Worker that believes in the Trinity. That was, until you had a conversation with him about it. I showed Review/Noel, that William Irvine, and many of the early workers and some of the current workers names believe in the Trinity... and I said most of the current workers do NOT... Thanks, goodness Review/senior worker proved my point he doesn't believe in the Trinity. However, there are workers who preach and teach the Trinity are still in the work today.You talk about "wishy washy": Think about what you are posting Nathan. You state that you take a strong stance that you are exclusive. You state that you believe that a person must find the Workers and profess through them in order to be saved. Then you post as you do above and state that you leave it up to God to decide. As if you don't know if they are saved or not. This is "wishy washy" at its best. Yes, a person must find the workers or the friends in order for them to welcome to the fellowship/saved... Jesus said, He that receive the you/workers receive me/Jesus... He that reject/despise you/workers, they are despising me/Jesus, and Him that sent me/My heavenly Father. (Matt 10:40; Luke 10:16) That is a NO wishy washy there! Quote: " Do NOT hinder the friends effective, powerful word of mouth/testimonies ministry" Are you talking to me as if I would hinder them? I really hope not. Please tell me you are not insinuating that I would do this. Man, you sure get too jumpy... I meant the workers should NOT hinder the friends from teachings, sharing the gospel with people. The friends word of mouth ministry, are part of the Great commission in Matthew 28.OK then, so NOW you are saying that people like Maryhig are going to Hell unless they find a Worker and profess through them. Is this correct? Quote: "there are workers who preach and teach the Trinity are still in the work today" Please name some that are preaching the Trinity TODAY....emphasis on TODAY. Quote: "Man, you sure get too jumpy... I meant the workers should NOT hinder the friends from teachings, sharing the gospel with people. The friends word of mouth ministry, are part of the Great commission in Matthew 28." Yes, I am defensive when it comes to people insinuating something other than what I said or believe, or insinuate that I would do something that I have never given an indication that I would do. You can argue with the hundreds of other exclusive denominations on whom Jesus's ministry is that in a continuation from the Apostles. Why don't you start with the Catholics that think that Peter was the first Pope.
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 29, 2015 22:29:32 GMT -5
Nathan, surely you know that posting people's full names on TMB without their consent is against the rules concerning privacy! You should know better than to even ask for that as any kind of proof!
Bob, can post their first names and their last name initials... or he can PM of their real names also. I will wait and see if Bob will reveal their names to me in Private message. And I will let you know whether he is telling the truth or NOT.Since you insist -- I don't need to use last names. Let's start with someone called "Nathan".
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Post by emy on Nov 29, 2015 22:34:00 GMT -5
I, for one, could not imagine Maryhig going to Hell. Neither can anyone else with one exception. Its a ridiculous notion. Even though she does not believe that Jesus' blood was shed to save us? PLEASE BE AWARE I AM NOT SAYING SHE IS UNSAVED! But most Christians would find that non-belief hard to accept.
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Post by openingact34 on Nov 29, 2015 23:08:33 GMT -5
I am a non-exclusive 2X2, and you were responding to Rational's post that was in response to my post. My non-exclusive views are fairly reprentive of the ' non-exlusive friends. I see exclusiveness as a major division. I wasn't aware there were non exclusive 2x2. They do sound like a kinder and gently variant of the 2x2 I knew. Time to update the website www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/29wmibook.php /----- 2x2 ---\ / \ / \ / \ exclusive 2x2 non exclusive 2x2 Division in thought maybe, but they don't seem to be rocking the boat to a significant degree. It sounds odd, but I discovered recently that there is apparently a belief in current 2x2 eschatology that literally one-half of the professing people at the time of Jesus' return will be saved. If the senior leadership truly believes that the end is imminent (as they claim) maybe their growing tolerance for all sorts of things is actually an attempt to pad the numbers with "prophecy-fulfilling cannon fodder"
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hberry
Senior Member
Posts: 743
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Post by hberry on Nov 29, 2015 23:36:59 GMT -5
Neither can anyone else with one exception. Its a ridiculous notion. Even though she does not believe that Jesus' blood was shed to save us? PLEASE BE AWARE I AM NOT SAYING SHE IS UNSAVED! But most Christians would find that non-belief hard to accept. Yes, they would.
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Post by jondough on Nov 30, 2015 0:08:15 GMT -5
Neither can anyone else with one exception. Its a ridiculous notion. Even though she does not believe that Jesus' blood was shed to save us? PLEASE BE AWARE I AM NOT SAYING SHE IS UNSAVED! But most Christians would find that non-belief hard to accept. She doesn't believe Jesus blood was shed to save us? I guess Maryhig would be the best one to explain this. I thought this was basic core Christianity.
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Post by rational on Nov 30, 2015 1:08:45 GMT -5
My answer is Yes. No wishy washy there. I believe 98% of workers will agree with me. Thanks for a definite answer. Your thinking that Maryhig is going to Hell (but you're going to Heaven)....well......no more to be said about exlusive thinking. And what about your exclusive belief in your god? Or christianity? How is that exclusive belief different?
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 30, 2015 2:18:16 GMT -5
Drop it, Nathan, while you're still ahead of the game. I know exactly how you settle matters and you don't want that discussed on here. I know all about your perverted concept of truth and loyalty, and you've been let off with enough foolishness already. Come on, Bob.... you made the claim and when I asked for fact to back it up, then you said drop it. So, remember next time don't make anymore claims when you can't back it up with evidences to show forth. nathan I suggest you take your own advise in regard to what you post on your website as fact ! Start with what you have said about the Henderson children.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 30, 2015 2:39:10 GMT -5
Nathan, maybe you should re-read your TMB conversations with Review in regard to the Trinity. This may jog your memory on how the F&W feel about it. They simply view it as false doctrine. And that is exactly what they call it. The ironic thing is I remember you using Review as an example of a Worker that believes in the Trinity. That was, until you had a conversation with him about it. I showed Review/Noel, that William Irvine, and many of the early workers and some of the current workers names believe in the Trinity... and I said most of the current workers do NOT... Thanks, goodness Review/senior worker proved my point he doesn't believe in the Trinity. However, there are workers who preach and teach the Trinity are still in the work today.You talk about "wishy washy": Think about what you are posting Nathan. You state that you take a strong stance that you are exclusive. You state that you believe that a person must find the Workers and profess through them in order to be saved. Then you post as you do above and state that you leave it up to God to decide. As if you don't know if they are saved or not. This is "wishy washy" at its best. Yes, a person must find the workers or the friends in order for them to welcome to the fellowship/saved... Jesus said, He that receive the you/workers receive me/Jesus... He that reject/despise you/workers, they are despising me/Jesus, and Him that sent me/My heavenly Father. (Matt 10:40; Luke 10:16) That is a NO wishy washy there! Quote: " Do NOT hinder the friends effective, powerful word of mouth/testimonies ministry" Are you talking to me as if I would hinder them? I really hope not. Please tell me you are not insinuating that I would do this. Man, you sure get too jumpy... I meant the workers should NOT hinder the friends from teachings, sharing the gospel with people. The friends word of mouth ministry, are part of the Great commission in Matthew 28.Nathan said ""]Yes, a person must find the workers or the friends in order for them to welcome to the fellowship/saved... Jesus said, He that receive the you/workers receive me/Jesus... He that reject/despise you/workers, they are despising me/Jesus, and Him that sent me/My heavenly Father. (Matt 10:40; Luke 10:16) That is a NO wishy washy there! [/font] nathan as I have asked you before if what you have stated above is right, what happens to all the people who lived & died before the workers came to their country ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 30, 2015 2:41:44 GMT -5
Nathan, maybe you should re-read your TMB conversations with Review in regard to the Trinity. This may jog your memory on how the F&W feel about it. They simply view it as false doctrine. And that is exactly what they call it. The ironic thing is I remember you using Review as an example of a Worker that believes in the Trinity. That was, until you had a conversation with him about it. You talk about "wishy washy": Think about what you are posting Nathan. You state that you take a strong stance that you are exclusive. You state that you believe that a person must find the Workers and profess through them in order to be saved. This is what exclusive means. Then you post as you do above and state that you leave it up to God to decide. As if you don't know if they are saved or not. This is "wishy washy" at its best. Quote: " Do NOT hinder the friends effective, powerful word of mouth/testimonies ministry" Are you talking to me as if I would hinder them? I really hope not. Please tell me you are not insinuating that I would do this. Great idea jondough, I think nathan needs to re-read some of the posts by others (Review) when the Trinity issue comes up !
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Post by maryhig on Nov 30, 2015 3:36:02 GMT -5
Neither can anyone else with one exception. Its a ridiculous notion. Even though she does not believe that Jesus' blood was shed to save us? PLEASE BE AWARE I AM NOT SAYING SHE IS UNSAVED! But most Christians would find that non-belief hard to accept. Hi emy, well I'm sure glad you're not deciding whether I'm unsaved or not. But really, that's only Gods desision to make. And I'll find out when I die. Not anyone here can decide that! And so the debate rages on with people deciding whether I go to hell or not, by human beings that are also sinners! As for Jesus' blood being shed to save us, I do believe that, only not as you do. Jesus himself said it was wrong to kill him, in John 7 and John 8. So did the apostles. Jesus even said they were doing the works of their father the devil! (John 8:44) saying that the devil was a murderer from the beginning, so they listened to the devil and did his works and murdered Jesus! A sacrifice in the old testament was done by Gods people with a clean cut to the throat. Murdering Jesus was done at the hands of Satan and his children, and they beat him, mocked him, and crucified him. This is not of God! He said in John 7:19. Did Moses not give you the law? And yet none of you keep the law why do you go about to kill me? He's saying the law clearly says thou shalt not kill. So why aren't they keeping the law? When he said that, the people said thou hast a devil. Who go about to kill you? They said Jesus had a devil! Because he quoted the law of Moses telling them it was wrong to kill. Including killing him! Just like some of you seem seem to think of me by judging me as unsaved or going to hell. Even though I have told you that I love God with all my heart, and we've spoken the scriptures together and i have opened my heart with you. But all as you can see, is that I believe it was wrong to kill Gods holy son and because of that I'm a sinner and unsaved? Back to Jesus' blood being shed to save us, yes I do believe the that. Only I don't believe his blood was shed on the wooden cross to save us. I believe Jesus poured out his blood, which is his life to save us. He took up his his cross and died to self, he lived out the way and brought us the truth and he is the life, by following him in death to self we become alive in God! And Christ can live through us because we are dead to the world and flesh, the more we die to self, the stronger we become in God and we are being saved! And Jesus never sinned so he had the full strength of God in him. And because he never sinned, he was in the express image of God, he was Emmanuel (God with us) and with the strength of God, he endured to the end through whatever Satan threw at him showing love and mercy and he overcame Satan. He put satan to death in his flesh. He came and showed us how to do it, showed us the way back to God, and now we have no excuse, because we know the way. He reconciled us through his death, but saved us by his life! (Romans 5:10) and he will help us to overcome Satan when we give our hearts to God. Because we can't do it without God, as we are sinners! And Jesus is the only way. He is the only saviour. And we are saved by believing him and the gospel and by following him. First by repentance, then taking up our cross and denying ourselves, giving our hearts over to God to do the works within, then we live those works outwardly, showing Christ through us to others and being guided by the spirit we have the hope of bringing those around us home to God through Christ. I couldn't in my heart call another person unsaved. Or that anyone is going to hell. That's for God to judge. So when some of you make that desision about people in your hearts, please be careful. Because Jesus said we shouldn't judge Luke 6 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. It's the word of God that judges, not the flesh! And he judges each heart individually and we will find out when we die and stand before him whether we are saved or not.
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 30, 2015 3:42:49 GMT -5
Even though she does not believe that Jesus' blood was shed to save us? PLEASE BE AWARE I AM NOT SAYING SHE IS UNSAVED! But most Christians would find that non-belief hard to accept. She doesn't believe Jesus blood was shed to save us? I guess Maryhig would be the best one to explain this. I thought this was basic core Christianity. To phrase it another way, it was William Irvine's teaching that we were not saved by Jesus shed blood, if I'm not mistaken.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 30, 2015 4:41:15 GMT -5
I see exclusiveness as a major division. I wasn't aware there were non exclusive 2x2. They do sound like a kinder and gently variant of the 2x2 I knew. Time to update the website www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/29wmibook.php /----- 2x2 ---\ / \ / \ / \ exclusive 2x2 non exclusive 2x2 Division in thought maybe, but they don't seem to be rocking the boat to a significant degree. It sounds odd, but I discovered recently that there is apparently a belief in current 2x2 eschatology that literally one-half of the professing people at the time of Jesus' return will be saved. If the senior leadership truly believes that the end is imminent (as they claim) maybe their growing tolerance for all sorts of things is actually an attempt to pad the numbers with "prophecy-fulfilling cannon fodder" I'm more of the opinion that any growing tolerance for less constricting rules than they once had is more apt to be done to keep the bleeding out of the fellowship that has almost become hemorrhagic.
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Post by jondough on Nov 30, 2015 9:12:02 GMT -5
Thanks for a definite answer. Your thinking that Maryhig is going to Hell (but you're going to Heaven)....well......no more to be said about exlusive thinking. And what about your exclusive belief in your god? Or christianity? How is that exclusive belief different? Its different in that both Nathan and I supposedly have the same belief. That is, Christianity. Belief in Christ. Yet he somehow judges (against Christ command) the majority of all Christians to Hell. He calls them "Brother" and "Sister" yet does not consider them a "brother" or "sister". He believes I should leave our fellowship because I refuse to judge these people. He calls this "wishy washy". He adds words to the bible and conditions to Jesus words that are not there, yet we both believe in the same bible. He believes much differently than most F&W in his Trinity thinking (considered false doctrine by the Workers and most Friends), Thor, hollow earth, etc, yet thinks I should leave the fellowship simply for refusing to judge all other Christians, but his belief system that is so different is ok, and he should stay. Much different situation.
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Post by jondough on Nov 30, 2015 9:44:32 GMT -5
Even though she does not believe that Jesus' blood was shed to save us? PLEASE BE AWARE I AM NOT SAYING SHE IS UNSAVED! But most Christians would find that non-belief hard to accept. Hi emy, well I'm sure glad you're not deciding whether I'm unsaved or not. But really, that's only Gods desision to make. And I'll find out when I die. Not anyone here can decide that! And so the debate rages on with people deciding whether I go to hell or not, by human beings that are also sinners! As for Jesus' blood being shed to save us, I do believe that, only not as you do. Jesus himself said it was wrong to kill him, in John 7 and John 8. So did the apostles. Jesus even said they were doing the works of their father the devil! (John 8:44) saying that the devil was a murderer from the beginning, so they listened to the devil and did his works and murdered Jesus! A sacrifice in the old testament was done by Gods people with a clean cut to the throat. Murdering Jesus was done at the hands of Satan and his children, and they beat him, mocked him, and crucified him. This is not of God! He said in John 7:19. Did Moses not give you the law? And yet none of you keep the law why do you go about to kill me? He's saying the law clearly says thou shalt not kill. So why aren't they keeping the law? When he said that, the people said thou hast a devil. Who go about to kill you? They said Jesus had a devil! Because he quoted the law of Moses telling them it was wrong to kill. Including killing him! Just like some of you seem seem to think of me by judging me as unsaved or going to hell. Even though I have told you that I love God with all my heart, and we've spoken the scriptures together and i have opened my heart with you. But all as you can see, is that I believe it was wrong to kill Gods holy son and because of that I'm a sinner and unsaved? Back to Jesus' blood being shed to save us, yes I do believe the that. Only I don't believe his blood was shed on the wooden cross to save us. I believe Jesus poured out his blood, which is his life to save us. He took up his his cross and died to self, he lived out the way and brought us the truth and he is the life, by following him in death to self we become alive in God! And Christ can live through us because we are dead to the world and flesh, the more we die to self, the stronger we become in God and we are being saved! And Jesus never sinned so he had the full strength of God in him. And because he never sinned, he was in the express image of God, he was Emmanuel (God with us) and with the strength of God, he endured to the end through whatever Satan threw at him showing love and mercy and he overcame Satan. He put satan to death in his flesh. He came and showed us how to do it, showed us the way back to God, and now we have no excuse, because we know the way. He reconciled us through his death, but saved us by his life! (Romans 5:10) and he will help us to overcome Satan when we give our hearts to God. Because we can't do it without God, as we are sinners! And Jesus is the only way. He is the only saviour. And we are saved by believing him and the gospel and by following him. First by repentance, then taking up our cross and denying ourselves, giving our hearts over to God to do the works within, then we live those works outwardly, showing Christ through us to others and being guided by the spirit we have the hope of bringing those around us home to God through Christ. I couldn't in my heart call another person unsaved. Or that anyone is going to hell. That's for God to judge. So when some of you make that desision about people in your hearts, please be careful. Because Jesus said we shouldn't judge Luke 6 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. It's the word of God that judges, not the flesh! And he judges each heart individually and we will find out when we die and stand before him whether we are saved or not. Thanks for this Mary. Mary, does your fellowship partake of the emblems? Do you break bread and drink of the cup as Jesus asked us to do in remembrance of him?
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Post by rational on Nov 30, 2015 10:24:45 GMT -5
And what about your exclusive belief in your god? Or christianity? How is that exclusive belief different? Its different in that both Nathan and I supposedly have the same belief. That is, Christianity. Belief in Christ. Yet he somehow judges (against Christ command) the majority of all Christians to Hell. He calls them "Brother" and "Sister" yet does not consider them a "brother" or "sister". He believes I should leave our fellowship because I refuse to judge these people. He calls this "wishy washy". He adds words to the bible and conditions to Jesus words that are not there, yet we both believe in the same bible. He believes much differently than most F&W in his Trinity thinking (considered false doctrine by the Workers and most Friends), Thor, hollow earth, etc, yet thinks I should leave the fellowship simply for refusing to judge all other Christians, but his belief system that is so different is ok, and he should stay. Much different situation. You are concerned because NathanB believes that many christians are going to hell but your own belief (assuming a christian belief) condemns the majority of humans to hell. Not sure that either of these exclusive beliefs is something to champion.
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Post by jondough on Nov 30, 2015 10:42:20 GMT -5
Its different in that both Nathan and I supposedly have the same belief. That is, Christianity. Belief in Christ. Yet he somehow judges (against Christ command) the majority of all Christians to Hell. He calls them "Brother" and "Sister" yet does not consider them a "brother" or "sister". He believes I should leave our fellowship because I refuse to judge these people. He calls this "wishy washy". He adds words to the bible and conditions to Jesus words that are not there, yet we both believe in the same bible. He believes much differently than most F&W in his Trinity thinking (considered false doctrine by the Workers and most Friends), Thor, hollow earth, etc, yet thinks I should leave the fellowship simply for refusing to judge all other Christians, but his belief system that is so different is ok, and he should stay. Much different situation. You are concerned because NathanB believes that many christians are going to hell but your own belief (assuming a christian belief) condemns the majority of humans to hell. Not sure that either of these exclusive beliefs is something to champion. I have stated in the past that I don't even know that I understand what "Hell" is....so how can I condemn someone there? It really doesn't concern me.
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Post by rational on Nov 30, 2015 11:26:52 GMT -5
You are concerned because NathanB believes that many christians are going to hell but your own belief (assuming a christian belief) condemns the majority of humans to hell. Not sure that either of these exclusive beliefs is something to champion. I have stated in the past that I don't even know that I understand what "Hell" is....so how can I condemn someone there? I guess I thought when you posted: That is, Christianity. Belief in Christ. Yet he somehow judges (against Christ command) the majority of all Christians to Hell. that you probably had some concept in mind that you thought would be unpleasant. The exact definition of hell is not the issue but the fact that there will be a division, the good on one side and the not good on the other, is why exclusivity causes tension among people holding different beliefs regarding the hereafter. I guess it doesn't. You are not making the decision and how you treat people while you are alive is probably the important factor. But there still must be the thought "I believe in the one true god so I will be gathered with the 'good people'. This is reflected in your posts when you mention your brothers and sisters in christianity, concerned that NathanB believes they will be going to hell. While the current terrorism has little to do with religious beliefs, religion is the 'glue' that binds people together and the belief in a greater power is the motivation that drives people to don a suicide vest and detonate it in the middle a crowd of people they consider infidels.
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Post by jondough on Nov 30, 2015 11:41:25 GMT -5
I have stated in the past that I don't even know that I understand what "Hell" is....so how can I condemn someone there? I guess I thought when you posted: That is, Christianity. Belief in Christ. Yet he somehow judges (against Christ command) the majority of all Christians to Hell. that you probably had some concept in mind that you thought would be unpleasant. The exact definition of hell is not the issue but the fact that there will be a division, the good on one side and the not good on the other, is why exclusivity causes tension among people holding different beliefs regarding the hereafter. I guess it doesn't. You are not making the decision and how you treat people while you are alive is probably the important factor. But there still must be the thought "I believe in the one true god so I will be gathered with the 'good people'. This is reflected in your posts when you mention your brothers and sisters in christianity, concerned that NathanB believes they will be going to hell. While the current terrorism has little to do with religious beliefs, religion is the 'glue' that binds people together and the belief in a greater power is the motivation that drives people to don a suicide vest and detonate it in the middle a crowd of people they consider infidels. There are many things that bind people together. Similar interest. Having the same parents. Having similar beliefs are examples of the countless things that may bind people together. Some people just connect for unknown reasons other than the fact that their personalities mesh well. I guess I now focus more on what I believe was the very simple basic message of Christ. That is Love. I believe that everything else stems from it. I really don’t focus on who will be separated with or from whom. I connect well with most people. I don’t ask them their beliefs before I decide how much I want to connect with them. I don’t think this was Christ message. I am willing to share my beliefs with anyone who may ask.
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 30, 2015 13:36:29 GMT -5
To phrase it another way, it was William Irvine's teaching that we were not saved by Jesus shed blood, if I'm not mistaken. Can you show us in any sermon of William Irvine, where he taught we were NOT save by Jesus shed blood, Bob?
No. They were told to. Jesus didn't say that. [/font] [/quote] Jesus didn't write that hymn.
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Post by blandie on Nov 30, 2015 15:16:10 GMT -5
I think irvine did preach about the blood of christ but like so much else it came with a caveat and it wasn't the main thing that got one salvation and didn't save anyone but was instead shed to cleanse those who had come into contact with and were following the ministry. That was part of the living witness condition that got added to the scripture in 2x2-ism and irvine put it this way - 'If men don't get his nature by hearing living witness by the spirit and obeying it there is no blood to cover their sins' and thats the attitude thats been around for a long time - jesus+ - so the blood of christ isn't enough to save and is of no use except for the faithful friends already following along in the 2x2-ism system.
Theres a 1910 article thats describing irvine that also made the observation - 'Another remarkable feature of doctrine is the preaching of the blood (of christ), the death (of christ) and that the cross of christ must not be offered to the ungodly - only to those who are supposed saints who have supposed spiritual life by receiving the supposed preacher' and theres probably other notes out there that make similar conditions right up to today that the blood wasn't shed to save sinners but to cleanse those in the way who continue to be faithful to it and strive to be worthy enough.
Its a big difference between saying that the blood saves and saying that the blood only cleanses.
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Post by rational on Nov 30, 2015 16:41:36 GMT -5
Its a big difference between saying that the blood saves and saying that the blood only cleanses. But isn't a clean soul the one that will have access to eternal life?
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