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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2015 22:22:20 GMT -5
I lean towards Jesus is the way... So are you exclusive ? not entirely there are a couple verses in the bible that lead me to believe others will be saved besides 2x2...
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Post by jondough on Nov 27, 2015 23:47:40 GMT -5
Nathan, Here is what realy baffles me in regard to your exlusive mindset; You believe that of the 40,000 denominations, that the F&W are the ONLY right one, yet they/we believe so much differently than you on so many things. Some, very important. Careful. Do you believe that of the tens of thousands of gods that the one you have chosen is the ONLY correct one? Do you believe that of all the religions there have been, that there are, and that there will be that christianity is the ONLY right one? This kind of thinking in regard to your exclusive mindset really baffles me. I believe there is one God I do believe in Christianity. I do understand that you claim to be baffled, I'm just not quite sure I believe it.
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Post by jondough on Nov 28, 2015 0:12:35 GMT -5
I don't believe Nathan runs the risk of an excom, at least at this stage. Most of us have a somewhat dotty old aunt in our extended family and she is tolerated because she is family, but no one really takes much notice of her. It's a shame for Nathan as on some biblical topics he has some interesting thoughts, but folks won't be taking much notice to them. You are corredt about this. Nathan would be considered by most, somewhat of an outsider who shows up once in a while, and if they know his claims on Thor, etc....would not even take him seriously. Nathan also understands that he can't speak of these things in Sunday morning meeting. I'm not sure how much he speaks about the Trinity in meeting, but considering he is not taken seriously, it wouldn't be much of a threat. I believe he misses many, if not most meetings due to his work. A Worker however would not be ignored if he were to speak of these things. He would be asked never to speak of them again. If they continued, they would be removed immediately.
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Post by jondough on Nov 28, 2015 0:30:18 GMT -5
You are corredt about this. Nathan would be considered by most, somewhat of an outsider who shows up once in a while, and if they know his claims on Thor, etc....would not even take him seriously. Nathan also understands that he can't speak of these things in Sunday morning meeting. I'm not sure how much he speaks about the Trinity in meeting, but considering he is not taken seriously, it wouldn't be much of a threat. I believe he misses many, if not most meetings due to his work. A Worker however would not be ignored if he were to speak of these things. He would be asked never to speak of them again. If they continued, they would be removed immediately. JD, you speak things you do NOT know.... What do you mean show up what once in awhile? I have gone to every Sunday and Union meetings for a year now.. and attend most of the gospel meetings, conventions... And you call me an outsider? You need to be careful on what you say about people whom you have NOT met, known or know first hand. You need to STOP writing untrue things about me, JD. You have expressed things which you have no truth to back it up with! You just express your own opinion.
So.... Please, refrain from saying/writing things which are NOT true about me from now on. You're bearing false witness about me.Sorry Nathan, I just remember you saying that you could not go to most meetings at one time. So maybe that has changed now. When someone misses most meetings, they are considered somewhat on the outside. If that has changed, I apologize. Glad you can be there now. Do you talk about the Trinity, and God the Son in Sunday morning meeting? Do you talk about Thor and Hollow earth in any meeting?
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 28, 2015 1:34:21 GMT -5
You are corredt about this. Nathan would be considered by most, somewhat of an outsider who shows up once in a while, and if they know his claims on Thor, etc....would not even take him seriously. Nathan also understands that he can't speak of these things in Sunday morning meeting. I'm not sure how much he speaks about the Trinity in meeting, but considering he is not taken seriously, it wouldn't be much of a threat. I believe he misses many, if not most meetings due to his work. A Worker however would not be ignored if he were to speak of these things. He would be asked never to speak of them again. If they continued, they would be removed immediately. JD, you speak things you do NOT know.... What do you mean show up what once in awhile? I have gone to every Sunday and Union meetings for a year now.. and attend most of the gospel meetings, conventions... And you call me an outsider? You need to be careful on what you say about people whom you have NOT met, known or know first hand. You need to STOP writing untrue things about me, JD. You have expressed things which you have no truth to back it up with! You just express your own opinion.
So.... Please, refrain from saying/writing things which are NOT true about me from now on. You're bearing false witness about me. nathan, maybe you too should refrain from writing things on your website which are NOT true. Do you ever stop and think how the Henderson children's mother or father would feel if they were to read what you wrote about their daughter worshipping satan on your website ? It is only your opinion, you have NO facts to back it up.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 28, 2015 1:35:48 GMT -5
nathan, gay people back up their right to be gay with their own testimonies as well, but plenty of people ( like yourself) don't want to listen, instead you use the Bible when it suits you to back-up your opinions. But I notice you don't use the Bible to back-up your theory of Thor or UFO's ! Or you take verses out of context to suit your belief.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 28, 2015 2:00:49 GMT -5
nathan, maybe you too should refrain from writing things on your website which are NOT true. Do you ever stop and think how the Henderson children's mother or father would feel if they were to read what you wrote about their daughter worshipping satan on your website ? It is only your opinion, you have NO facts to back it up. If it wasn't true I wouldn't have posted.
Narelle had written in a note, mentioning Kurt Cobain (killed himself in 1993) had influence, the weeks before she killed herself in 1994. She wrote " Satan, I need help, I want to SERVE you, and be a Devil worshipper, God is DEAD and no one cares. I am planning to Kill myself Tuesday. When I die, let me be a devil, or a demon and Destroy everyone who hurts me. I might have a séance and try to communicate with Kurt Corbain. I Love him. When I die, can I meet him, please. I need to. Let me be a devil or demon, please Satan. I love you." The high school student, Narelle wrote on her arm "Kurt Corbain is a legend." 2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com/thread/204/2x2-teenagers-committed nathan, you DO NOT know if it was true ! You don't like it when JD wrote something about you, so maybe you should think about how Narelle's parents feel. As I have said in the past what you have said on your website about this should NOT be there. "Here are some of the reasons Narelle (14) and Stephen (12) committed suicide according to the newspaper in Australia" All you have to go on is what was in the newspaper !
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Post by withlove on Nov 28, 2015 2:38:27 GMT -5
Can you clarify a couple things, please, Nate?
Hollow earth is hades...but not yet a lake of fire? Just a place where the garden of Eden is...who lives there again? Will the lake of fire be created there?
Since you say Jesus lives on Venus, are you meaning that Venus is heaven, with the mansions and streets of gold, etc? Will saved humans go to Venus to live?
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 28, 2015 2:52:23 GMT -5
nathan, you DO NOT know if it was true ! You don't like it when JD wrote something about you, so maybe you should think about how Narelle's parents feel. As I have said in the past what you have said on your website about this should NOT be there. "Here are some of the reasons Narelle (14) and Stephen (12) committed suicide according to the newspaper in Australia" All you have to go on is what was in the newspaper ! Well, it is right there.... Narrel's own words....And you have seen the note Narelle wrote nathan ?
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Post by jondough on Nov 28, 2015 10:18:19 GMT -5
Wow,
Talk about adding to the words of the bible.
This in my opinion is of man. Man trying to understand it all with their limited, carnal understanding. We cannot understand or comprehend it all. Its impossible. This is what you get if you try. We cannot even comprehend the spiritual realm. Its a completely different physical state of being that we cannot begin to understand. How can we understand even something simple like the voice from Heaven that spoke the words "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased"?. Or dead bodies being raised some day. Bodies that are decayed. Or what happened on the Mount of transfiguration. And many more things that have, and will happen. Some day it will all be revealed.
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 28, 2015 18:22:39 GMT -5
nathan, maybe you too should refrain from writing things on your website which are NOT true. Do you ever stop and think how the Henderson children's mother or father would feel if they were to read what you wrote about their daughter worshipping satan on your website ? It is only your opinion, you have NO facts to back it up. If it wasn't true I wouldn't have posted.
www.votisalive.com/print/3173
Narelle had written in a note, mentioning Kurt Cobain (killed himself in 1993) had influence, the weeks before she killed herself in 1994. She wrote " Satan, I need help, I want to SERVE you, and be a Devil worshipper, God is DEAD and no one cares. I am planning to Kill myself Tuesday. When I die, let me be a devil, or a demon and Destroy everyone who hurts me. I might have a séance and try to communicate with Kurt Corbain. I Love him. When I die, can I meet him, please. I need to. Let me be a devil or demon, please Satan. I love you." The high school student, Narelle wrote on her arm "Kurt Corbain is a legend." 2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com/thread/204/2x2-teenagers-committedIf UFOs and Valiant Thor weren't TRUE or I didn't have any evidences to BACK them up, I wouldn't have posted on my website.Not so, Nathan. I've checked at least one of your sources and you quoted the exact opposite.
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 28, 2015 18:28:59 GMT -5
Well, it is right there.... Narrel's own words.... And you have seen the note Narelle wrote nathan ? It wouldn't matter to me whether Nathan saw the note or not. It would always mean to him exactly what he wanted it to mean.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 28, 2015 19:03:37 GMT -5
Wow, Talk about adding to the words of the bible. This in my opinion is of man. Man trying to understand it all with their limited, carnal understanding. We cannot understand or comprehend it all. Its impossible. This is what you get if you try. We cannot even comprehend the spiritual realm. Its a completely different physical state of being that we cannot begin to understand. How can we understand even something simple like the voice from Heaven that spoke the words "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased"?. Or dead bodies being raised some day. Bodies that are decayed. Or what happened on the Mount of transfiguration. And many more things that have, and will happen Some day it will all be revealed. No, we can't understand everything.
And Yes, that is what happens when we can't be satisfied in NOT knowing but want desperately to understand. We tend to build up a scenario & make ourselves believe it in order to alleviate our anxiety.
All the god/gods PRESENT and past are created by HUMANS for the same reason, -trying to understand why things happens. The "Scripture" (bible) isn't any more important than The Vedas or any other "Holy" script when it comes to people trying to make sense of their world.
There is no "spiritual realm." -We built that idea & all it's associated stories for the same reason, because we don't know why certain things happen but insist that there must be a reason even if we have to create a reason!
Humankind has always created reasons for what was happening to them & their environment. That is the cause of the various religions.
The way that we understand passages in the "scripture" such as a "voice from Heaven that spoke the words "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased," or bodies that are decayed but being raised again, or the "transfiguration" is to understand that the gospels were not even meant to be written as happening the way they actually did!
The Gospels were neither biographies nor objective historical account. They weren't meant to be such by their writers nor understood to be such by their readers at that time.
Here is a quote from L. Michael White: Professor of Classics and Director of the Religious Studies Program University of Texas at Austin
GOSPELS ARE NOT BIOGRAPHIES
"The gospels are not biographies in the modern sense of the word. Rather, they are stories told in such a way as to evoke a certain image of Jesus for a particular audience. They're trying to convey a message about Jesus, about his significance to the audience and thus we we have to think of them as a kind of preaching, as well as story telling. That's what the gospel, The Good News, is really all about."
So, it isn't any wonder that people today are unable to understand them!
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Post by joanna on Nov 28, 2015 19:51:48 GMT -5
dmmichgood I was skimming over this thread and thinking along the same lines as you have written "All the god/gods PRESENT and past are created by HUMANS for the same reason, -trying to understand why things happens. The "Scripture" (bible) isn't any more important than The Vedas or any other "Holy" script when it comes to people trying to make sense of their world"NathanB is being singled out because he holds a minority view and he is eager to elaborate on this. All who believe in any account of miracles and supernatural beings are no different to Nathan; they too plug their gaps of knowledge with imaginings, or the weaving of elaborate tales. Nathan provides a great opportunity for us to consider that if we are willing to believe in that which cannot be proven, then anything goes. Just as there is no evidence for the hollow earth, neither is there evidence for: the ability to communicate/pray with god(s); donkeys speaking a human language; the parting of seas; the walking on sea; exorcising demons and rising from the dead etc. Hans Christian Anderson's books also contain many imaginative tales but most people tend not to believe that his elves, faeries and goblins are real. It is therefore ironic that his tale of the "The Emporer's New Clothes" comprises an allegory for religion; the masses having been deceived by unsubstantiated and false claims.
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 28, 2015 20:19:58 GMT -5
dmmichgood I was skimming over this thread and thinking along the same lines as you have written "All the god/gods PRESENT and past are created by HUMANS for the same reason, -trying to understand why things happens. The "Scripture" (bible) isn't any more important than The Vedas or any other "Holy" script when it comes to people trying to make sense of their world"NathanB is being singled out because he holds a minority view and he is eager to elaborate on this. All who believe in any account of miracles and supernatural beings are no different to Nathan; they too plug their gaps of knowledge with imaginings, or the weaving of elaborate tales. Nathan provides a great opportunity for us to consider that if we are willing to believe in that which cannot be proven, then anything goes. Just as there is no evidence for the hollow earth, neither is there evidence for: the ability to communicate/pray with god(s); donkeys speaking a human language; the parting of seas; the walking on sea; exorcising demons and rising from the dead etc. Hans Christian Anderson's books also contain many imaginative tales but most people tend not to believe that his elves, faeries and goblins are real. It is therefore ironic that his tale of the "The Emporer's New Clothes" comprises an allegory for religion; the masses having been deceived by unsubstantiated and false claims. Yes - dmmichgood is exactly right. And Nathan, if he were not presenting himself as a 2x2, could gather himself a profitable following if he went out on his own. There are people willing to believe -- anything.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 28, 2015 21:14:16 GMT -5
And you have seen the note Narelle wrote nathan ? It wouldn't matter to me whether Nathan saw the note or not. It would always mean to him exactly what he wanted it to mean. You are right BobWilliston , if he believes the earth is hollow & that Jesus lives on Venus, and that Satan created people who have down syndrome, he will believe anything !
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Post by jondough on Nov 28, 2015 21:16:24 GMT -5
I guess that is also my main contension that I mentioned ealier as well. Nathan is an exlusive 2X2, and goes as far tas to say that if I express my non-exlusive opinions, that I could be ex-communicated (maybe a warning, maybe a threat, maybe both). He also said that all other non-exclusive 2X2 that has come on this board eventually leaves.
Then he goes on to express all these very "non 2X2 beliefs".
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 28, 2015 21:21:28 GMT -5
Exactly jondough ! If nathan is being "singled out" it is because he is so exclusive 2x2, we all know what would happen if he expressed his ideas in a Sunday Morning meeting.
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Post by slowtosee on Nov 28, 2015 21:23:01 GMT -5
I notice we often interchange the words ,evidence and proof. They are quite different. We can gather MUCH evidence , but that does not prove what we believe. There are few things able to be PROVEN absolutely ,perhaps mathematics, I understand. Many times when we say there is no evidence, we simply mean there is no proof. Again, lots of evidence my wife loves me, but I can't prove it, so I am quite content to just believe it. Alvin
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 28, 2015 21:25:28 GMT -5
And you have seen the note Narelle wrote nathan ? Do you believe the Newspaper writers made up and wrote these words themselves and NOT Narelle? ... But I don't think so. Good reporters/writers always try to check VERY carefully of their sources, to make sure they're truthful and correct before they printed in the newspapers.www.votisalive.com/print/3173Narelle had written in a note, mentioning Kurt Cobain (killed himself in 1993) had influence, the weeks before she killed herself in 1994. She wrote " Satan, I need help, I want to SERVE you, and be a Devil worshipper, God is DEAD and no one cares. I am planning to Kill myself Tuesday. When I die, let me be a devil, or a demon and Destroy everyone who hurts me. I might have a séance and try to communicate with Kurt Corbain. I Love him. When I die, can I meet him, please. I need to. Let me be a devil or demon, please Satan. I love you." The high school student, Narelle wrote on her arm "Kurt Corbain is a legend." nathan, you have ASSumed so much ! Then you have stated it as FACT on your website ! There is way more to this story than you know !
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Post by jondough on Nov 28, 2015 21:54:56 GMT -5
I guess that is also my main contension that I mentioned ealier as well. Nathan is an exlusive 2X2, and goes as far tas to say that if I express my non-exlusive opinions, that I could be ex-communicated (maybe a warning, maybe a threat, maybe both). He also said that all other non-exclusive 2X2 that has come on this board eventually leaves. Then he goes on to express all these very "non 2X2 beliefs". You must have read and remember what happened to non-exclusive worker John Long excommunication in 1907 for sending his converts to join the churches of their choice AND 2x2 non-exclusive Brandon Miller from Texas story for expressing his no-exclusive thoughts at convention, in his Sunday morning meetings, and attending his girl friend non-2x2 church. Brandon M. was welcome to attend Sunday morning fellowship, but eventually he left the 2x2 fellowship on his own and join the church of his non-2x2 girl friend who later became his wife.2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com/thread/187/expelled-speaking-worship-meetingsI have been posting on the similar TMB for almost 20 yrs, I have seen non-exclusive 2x2 friends came and posting their thoughts, ideas on here and a few years later they left our 2x2 fellowship and join other churches, and some of them became atheists, agnostics.I think you know that I'm not a Worker sending people off to other churches. I have also told you that I don't go to Sunday morning meeting with an agenda to convert everyone else's thinking. That would be futile and would only take away from the unity of the meeting. There is plenty of other things to talk about that is much more edifying to the meeting. The main difference between you and I in this regard is that I don't condemn the rest of the world. I don't judge them to Hell. Do you really think that this is that bad of a thing? Again tho, not my point Nathan. The point is, you point at my "non-exclusive" point of view as tho its a 2X2 deal breaker, then post all this stuff that is VERY non 2X2. Seems a little hypocritical.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 28, 2015 22:44:38 GMT -5
Do you believe the Newspaper writers made up and wrote these words themselves and NOT Narelle? ... But I don't think so. Good reporters/writers always try to check VERY carefully of their sources, to make sure they're truthful and correct before they printed in the newspapers.www.votisalive.com/print/3173Narelle had written in a note, mentioning Kurt Cobain (killed himself in 1993) had influence, the weeks before she killed herself in 1994. She wrote " Satan, I need help, I want to SERVE you, and be a Devil worshipper, God is DEAD and no one cares. I am planning to Kill myself Tuesday. When I die, let me be a devil, or a demon and Destroy everyone who hurts me. I might have a séance and try to communicate with Kurt Corbain. I Love him. When I die, can I meet him, please. I need to. Let me be a devil or demon, please Satan. I love you." The high school student, Narelle wrote on her arm "Kurt Corbain is a legend." nathan, you have ASSumed so much ! Then you have stated it as FACT on your website ! There is way more to this story than you know !
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Post by jondough on Nov 28, 2015 22:46:21 GMT -5
I think you know that I'm not a Worker sending people off to other churches. I have also told you that I don't go to Sunday morning meeting with an agenda to convert everyone else's thinking. That would be futile and would only take away from the unity of the meeting. There is plenty of other things to talk about that is much more edifying to the meeting. Then why do you keep on asking me if I ever speak about Valiant Thor and Hollow earth in my Sunday morning meetings for? Hollow earth, and Valiant Thor would take away from the unity of the meetings because we are there to worship God the Father, Jesus Christ, and Holy Spirit. I don't want to convert any of the friends and workers in my field to become Valiant Thor and hollow earth believers. I don't mind talking about Valiant Thor, Hollow earth AFTER the meetings, I am NOT afraid to share these things with anyone. TMB is a appropriate place to discuss about all kinds of topics.The main difference between you and I in this regard is that I don't condemn the rest of the world. I don't judge them to Hell. Do you really think that this is that bad of a thing? I don't condemn the world, the teachings of Jesus does that... I am just encouraging, pointing people to pay attention to His teachings and follow it closely. Judging and sending people to HELL is God's job NOT mine. I am just a voice crying in the wilderness preparing the way for the Lord God Christ. I am only a friend of the bridegroom, Jesus is the Bridegroom that people should follow.Again tho, not my point Nathan. The point is, you point at my "non-exclusive" point of view as tho its a 2X2 deal breaker, then post all this stuff that is VERY non 2X2. Seems a little hypocritical. The knowledge the existence of Valiant Thor, Hollow earth has nothing to do with a person's salvation but saying it OK for the friends to attend other churches, they are the same as 2x2 church. I believe there are Christians in the RCC and 40,000 Protestant denominations but they must come out among them and be separated... Many of the friends and some workers had done exactly this.... I was one of them! You are putting words in my mouth. I have never said that all the other churches are the same as 2X2. Many are not, and I do not tell anyone where to go. In fact, if someone were to ask me about Christ, which they have, I would bring them to my church, which I have. I simply do not condemn or judge others as wrong because they fellowship with someone other than whom I fellowship with. When they pray, and are led by the Spirit to whom they fellowship with, who am I to judge them as wrong?
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 28, 2015 22:48:03 GMT -5
You must have read and remember what happened to non-exclusive worker John Long excommunication in 1907 for sending his converts to join the churches of their choice AND 2x2 non-exclusive Brandon Miller from Texas story for expressing his no-exclusive thoughts at convention, in his Sunday morning meetings, and attending his girl friend non-2x2 church. Brandon M. was welcome to attend Sunday morning fellowship, but eventually he left the 2x2 fellowship on his own and join the church of his non-2x2 girl friend who later became his wife.2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com/thread/187/expelled-speaking-worship-meetingsI have been posting on the similar TMB for almost 20 yrs, I have seen non-exclusive 2x2 friends came and posting their thoughts, ideas on here and a few years later they left our 2x2 fellowship and join other churches, and some of them became atheists, agnostics. I think you know that I'm not a Worker sending people off to other churches. I have also told you that I don't go to Sunday morning meeting with an agenda to convert everyone else's thinking. That would be futile and would only take away from the unity of the meeting. There is plenty of other things to talk about that is much more edifying to the meeting. The main difference between you and I in this regard is that I don't condemn the rest of the world. I don't judge them to Hell. Do you really think that this is that bad of a thing? Again tho, not my point Nathan. The point is, you point at my "non-exclusive" point of view as tho its a 2X2 deal breaker, then post all this stuff that is VERY non 2X2. Seems a little hypocritical. nathan are you serious ! You criticise Brandon Miller because he was non-exclusive 2x2 yet you have a website to try & convince people that Valiant Thor exists, that the earth is hollow & Jesus lives on Venus ! Hypocritical much !
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Post by Grant on Nov 28, 2015 22:50:34 GMT -5
Many are coming out of the 2x2s also Nathan. Come out and be ye separate which is exactly what many have and are doing. The 2x2s are just one of the 40,000 denominations. Nothing special about them. Come out from among them.
If you believed the hollow earth stuff then why not speak on it in meeting. Surely if Jesus lived on venus you would talk about it freely in testimony time if it lined up with the Bible. You make the 2x2s seem a laugh. Guess some will swallow anything.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 28, 2015 22:53:37 GMT -5
Tell me something nathan, why is it on your website under the thread of homosexuals all you do is post from TMB things that you have said ? Why not post the whole thread ?
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 29, 2015 0:40:50 GMT -5
I guess that is also my main contension that I mentioned ealier as well. Nathan is an exlusive 2X2, and goes as far tas to say that if I express my non-exlusive opinions, that I could be ex-communicated (maybe a warning, maybe a threat, maybe both). He also said that all other non-exclusive 2X2 that has come on this board eventually leaves. Then he goes on to express all these very "non 2X2 beliefs". Fact is that Nathan has been instrumental in having such people squeezed out of fellowship. Take care he doesn't inform the workers in California on you.
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 29, 2015 0:48:32 GMT -5
You are putting words in my mouth. I have never said that all the other churches are the same as 2X2. Many are not, and I do not tell anyone where to go. In fact, if someone were to ask me about Christ, which they have, I would bring them to my church, which I have. I simply do not condemn or judge others as wrong because they fellowship with someone other than whom I fellowship with. When they pray, and are led by the Spirit to whom they fellowship with, who am I to judge them as wrong? This slippery strategy he learned from Leo Stancliff. He will NEVER EVER have made a mistake.
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