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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 29, 2015 0:50:37 GMT -5
Tell me something nathan, why is it on your website under the thread of homosexuals all you do is post from TMB things that you have said ? Why not post the whole thread ? He can get more attention sharing what others say on the Q.T.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 29, 2015 1:01:17 GMT -5
Tell me something nathan, why is it on your website under the thread of homosexuals all you do is post from TMB things that you have said ? Why not post the whole thread ? Because I am NOT too interested in this subject, yet... I don't feel move to spent too much of my time on this homosexual thread... When the Spirit of God moves and leads me then I will try to a complete study on it.For someone that claims, they are "not too" interested in the subject you sure have plenty to say about it, with claims that Satan created homosexuals ! So has the Spirit of God lead you to tell people about Valiant Thor, hollow earth & Jesus living on Venus ?
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 29, 2015 2:28:22 GMT -5
Fact is that Nathan has been instrumental in having such people squeezed out of fellowship. Take care he doesn't inform the workers in California on you. Can you back it up with your accusation or so call fact, Bob? Can you tell me the names of some these friends squeezed out of the fellowship are?YOU are asking ME ? I don't want you quoting me about anything.
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Post by rational on Nov 29, 2015 10:07:13 GMT -5
Careful. Do you believe that of the tens of thousands of gods that the one you have chosen is the ONLY correct one? Do you believe that of all the religions there have been, that there are, and that there will be that christianity is the ONLY right one? This kind of thinking in regard to your exclusive mindset really baffles me. I believe there is one God I do believe in Christianity. I do understand that you claim to be baffled, I'm just not quite sure I believe it. I guess I am baffled by christians and monotheists who speak out against exclusive beliefs.
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Post by slowtosee on Nov 29, 2015 10:19:35 GMT -5
, Maybe look at it like a person who LOVES animals and living things, truly, but has no problem speaking out against certain animals like mice or living things like mosquitoes or poison ivy ......... Alvin
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Post by jondough on Nov 29, 2015 11:41:25 GMT -5
I guess I am baffled by christians and monotheists who speak out against exclusive beliefs. Amen. The non-exlusive 2x2 believe in the 40,000 plus denominations Christianity but they exclusively choose the 2x2 as the fellowship for them. The non-exclusive 2x2s condemn the exclusive friends for sticking with the 2x2 as their only fellowship. I say the non-exclusive friends are wishy washy in their belief. It's good to see some of the 2x2 friends, who make a clear stand, when they left our fellowship and choose a fellowship/church which are NOT exclusive for them. I am very sad to see them leave but I respect them for making their stand for all to see.Nathan, Why do you post things that are not true? Why can't you just be honest? I JUST explained this to you. Do you really not comprehend? I choose 2X2 for myself. I simply do not condemn and judge others as wrong for choosing something other than what I have chosen. I have never said that I believe in all 40,000 denominations. I don't even know what they are, or what they believe. They could believe Satin is part of your Trinity for all I know. Please quit posting dishonest post. I just explained this to you so I have a hard time believing you didn't know this already.
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Post by jondough on Nov 29, 2015 11:59:27 GMT -5
Nathan,
You might ask yourself,
Why do I think any F&W should leave the fellowship that refuses to condemn all other Christians in this world? Why do I think they should judge them all to be wrong.
Here's another question for you Nathan;
I have seen you call many people that do not go to meetings "Brother" or "Sister". Are you related to these people? If not, why do you call them "Brother" or "Sister"?
"wishy washy"?
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Post by jondough on Nov 29, 2015 12:30:11 GMT -5
Nathan, Why do you post things that are not true? Why can't you just be honest? I JUST explained this to you. Do you really not comprehend? I choose 2X2 for myself. I simply do not condemn and judge others as wrong for choosing something other than what I have chosen. I have never said that I believe in all 40,000 denominations. I don't even know what they are, or what they believe. They could believe Satin is part of your Trinity for all I know. Please quit posting dishonest post. I just explained this to you so I have a hard time believing you didn't know this already. My post wasn't pointing at you so don't get so jumpy... I read and know your non-exclusive belief already. You're not being honest again Nathan. I am a non-exclusive 2X2, and you were responding to Rational's post that was in response to my post. My non-exclusive views are fairly reprentive of the 'non-exlusive friends. I have explained above what those are, and then you post a dishonest post like your repsonse to Rationals.
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Post by jondough on Nov 29, 2015 12:32:37 GMT -5
Nathan, You might ask yourself, Why do I think any F&W should leave the fellowship that refuses to condemn all other Christians in this world? Why do I think they should judge them all to be wrong. Here's another question for you Nathan; I have seen you call many people that do not go to meetings "Brother" or "Sister". Are you related to these people? If not, why do you call them "Brother" or "Sister"? "wishy washy"? Yes, I can sense the spirits of kinship with them so I call them my brothers (Both Ross and others) and sisters (maryH) even we don't always agree.Lets talk about "wishy washy" So is MaryHig and Ross not saved unless they come to meetings and profess through a Worker? Yes or No I trust you wont answer this with a yes or no. wishy washy?
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Post by xna on Nov 29, 2015 12:46:17 GMT -5
It's hard for me to rank imaginations on a believability scale. One person sees a duck, another a rabbit, yet another can see a rabbit or duck at will. Which is more believable; aliens, ghosts, heaven, hell, or spirits? Without evidence it's one mans imagination vs. another.
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Post by jondough on Nov 29, 2015 12:46:55 GMT -5
Lets talk about "wishy washy" So is MaryHig and Ross not saved unless they come to meetings and profess through a Worker? Yes or No I trust you wont answer this with a yes or no. wishy washy? My answer is Yes. No wishy washy there. I believe 98% of workers will agree with me.Thanks for a definite answer. Your thinking that Maryhig is going to Hell (but you're going to Heaven)....well......no more to be said about exlusive thinking.
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Post by Grant on Nov 29, 2015 12:55:39 GMT -5
So clearly Nathan you believe salvation is through the workers. Believing in Jesus as the only way is not enough. It is Jesus plus the workers. Ross and Maryhig believe Jesus alone saves so according to you they are not saved. Finding Jesus versus finding the workers. No Nathan, Jesus only is the way not some man made church started by some men over a hundred years ago. Amazing that anyone reading their Bible could believe that.
Reminds me of a man I was talking to last week saying he was talking to some Mormon men and they said God used Joseph Smith to restore His church. The same excuse the workers use for starting their own church.
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Post by jondough on Nov 29, 2015 12:58:58 GMT -5
Lets talk about "wishy washy" So is MaryHig and Ross not saved unless they come to meetings and profess through a Worker? Yes or No I trust you wont answer this with a yes or no. wishy washy? My answer is Yes. No wishy washy there. I believe 98% of workers will agree with me.Why do you call them "Brother" or "Sister" ? I pretty sure you know the bible quite well, and know whom Jesus referred to as Brothers and Sisters? Can you please answer this?
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Post by xna on Nov 29, 2015 12:59:42 GMT -5
My answer is Yes. No wishy washy there. I believe 98% of workers will agree with me. Thanks for a definite answer. You're thinking that Maryhig is going to Hell....well......no more to be said about exlusive thinking. There was only one true way preached to heaven in my day. You could only be saved by hearing the workers preach the gospel to you. The only ones who had the true message were the ones that were sent & go as in the bible ie the workers. All other ways are false. Only a few will seek, and find that diamond in the field. All the rest are lost to hell. The exclusiveness was the allure. It's how you knew you found the one right way. If the 2x2 loose exclusivity, then I suspect they would soon die out. JMT
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Post by xna on Nov 29, 2015 13:59:01 GMT -5
I am a non-exclusive 2X2, and you were responding to Rational's post that was in response to my post. My non-exclusive views are fairly reprentive of the ' non-exlusive friends. I see exclusiveness as a major division. I wasn't aware there were non exclusive 2x2. They do sound like a kinder and gently variant of the 2x2 I knew. Time to update the website www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/29wmibook.php /----- 2x2 ---\ / \ / \ / \ exclusive 2x2 non exclusive 2x2
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 29, 2015 14:15:16 GMT -5
YOU are asking ME ? I don't want you quoting me about anything. What you are saying is you have no fact to back up your claim, right? If you did you would have posted their names already. So, you just like to say things out of the top of your head with no evidence to support your claim?Drop it, Nathan, while you're still ahead of the game. I know exactly how you settle matters and you don't want that discussed on here. I know all about your perverted concept of truth and loyalty, and you've been let off with enough foolishness already.
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 29, 2015 14:26:54 GMT -5
I am a non-exclusive 2X2, and you were responding to Rational's post that was in response to my post. My non-exclusive views are fairly reprentive of the ' non-exlusive friends. I see exclusiveness as a major division. I wasn't aware there were non exclusive 2x2. They do sound like a kinder and gently variant of the 2x2 I knew. Time to update the website www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/29wmibook.php /----- 2x2 ---\ / \ / \ / \ exclusive 2x2 non exclusive 2x2 I don't believe non-exclusivity is really an accepted concept among the workers -- though they tolerate people who are non-exclusive if they don't talk about it. Just a couple of years ago an overseer told a friend of mine that it mattered not what a person believed or did, if it was not of the workers it is not of God. And unless Dale Schulz has had an enlightenment, his record certainly indicates that worker approval is mandatory.
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Post by slowtosee on Nov 29, 2015 15:26:35 GMT -5
My understanding is also like Bob's, that non-exclusive people are tolerated, and not yet mainstream. It is surprising though, how many members have expressed to us in private that they are non-exclusive. Interestingly I imagine this quiet movement inside the 2x2 will likely manifest itself very openly and suddenly,as movements do and that some day, exclusive people like Nathan will wake up and find themselves being the minority in the group. It is encouraging to observe the changes happening , and the desire of non-exclusivists to relay their acceptance and blessing of other people's spirituality , which they also receive. We enjoyed our time with a Ukranian Christian couple today , who had aquaintances that were 2x2, so had checked them out on the web. They were astonished at what they all read on the net about the 2x2, most of which was negative. We were quite defensive and were happy to inform them that more and more 2x2 are not as exclusive as they had read etc. and pointed out the "failings" etc. in groups that we are and have been part of. Cannot label or brush anybody in any group with the same label. We are individuals within groups, subgroups, sub sub groups etc etc. etc. The couple describe themselves as ex-atheists, with their parents having been indoctrinated from birth , under communism . btw. -he estimated that about 10 percent communists in his "circle" of life were Christian, so again, labels are not altogether accurate, as often communism is equated to atheism as religion is to God as 2x2 is to exclusiveness as science is to truth as ................................................... Alvin
edit- to clarify , not trying to mislead that I know of a great multitude of non-exclusive "friends", and usually in movements of great magnitude within "groups", it comes from within and from a few with a vision that becomes all so apparent to the rest within the group , in a surprising way sometimes. Who knows what history will have to say about the 2x2 group in a hundred years. I think people like Jondough will have a line or two in the archives . Thanks Alvin
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 29, 2015 15:45:35 GMT -5
Exclusivity is going to be a really difficult concept to eradiate, f at all possible. The reason it was adopted in the first place was to bolster the authority of the ministry, and it's been a widely used tool in retaining membership. Before it can happen, the ministry is going to have to compete with so many other influences in today's society that contradict any specific exclusive ideology.
On the other hand, there are always enough people who will follow .. wherever they are led.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2015 16:04:21 GMT -5
I am a non-exclusive 2X2, and you were responding to Rational's post that was in response to my post. My non-exclusive views are fairly reprentive of the ' non-exlusive friends. I see exclusiveness as a major division. I wasn't aware there were non exclusive 2x2. They do sound like a kinder and gently variant of the 2x2 I knew. Time to update the website www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/29wmibook.php /----- 2x2 ---\ / \ / \ / \ exclusive 2x2 non exclusive 2x2 I tend to think of a non exclusive 2x2 in the 2x2 church in the same way I would view a straight man at a gay orgy. I'm happy to accept at face value his claim that he is straight, but I do wonder what on earth he is doing there. Of course, as a straight man, I have no desire to be at a gay orgy, however I'm quite sure I would be tolerated if I did decide to turn up ..... so long as I played along. It's always worth remembering that a gay orgy is still a gay orgy whether there are straight men there or not. Matt10
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Post by xna on Nov 29, 2015 16:31:56 GMT -5
I see exclusiveness as a major division. I wasn't aware there were non exclusive 2x2. They do sound like a kinder and gently variant of the 2x2 I knew. Time to update the website www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/29wmibook.php /----- 2x2 ---\ / \ / \ / \ exclusive 2x2 non exclusive 2x2 I tend to think of a non exclusive 2x2 in the 2x2 church in the same way I would view a straight man at a gay orgy. I'm happy to accept at face value his claim that he is straight, but I do wonder what on earth he is doing there. Of course, as a straight man, I have no desire to be at a gay orgy, however I'm quite sure I would be tolerated if I did decide to turn up ..... so long as I played along. It's always worth remembering that a gay orgy is still a gay orgy whether there are straight men there or not. Matt10 I never thought about it that way. So would non exclusive 2x2 going to a UU church be like a straight man going to bi orgy?
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Post by slowtosee on Nov 29, 2015 16:38:46 GMT -5
What if it was not an orgy, but instead just a "meeting", of "gay" people? No problem. Also a "gay" person showing up at a "meeting" of "straight" people. Should be quite all right. True, I understand your analogy, and makes sense, but the attendance of an event ,straight or gay, orgy or whatever, has it's implications, and subject to people's prejudices etc, but until you know that individual's intent , motives, etc etc. it's difficult to make too big a judgement? Appreciate your post, btw. alvin
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Post by SharonArnold on Nov 29, 2015 16:48:16 GMT -5
I tend to think of a non exclusive 2x2 in the 2x2 church in the same way I would view a straight man at a gay orgy. I'm happy to accept at face value his claim that he is straight, but I do wonder what on earth he is doing there. Of course, as a straight man, I have no desire to be at a gay orgy, however I'm quite sure I would be tolerated if I did decide to turn up ..... so long as I played along. It's always worth remembering that a gay orgy is still a gay orgy whether there are straight men there or not. Matt10 Interesting perspective. And I think there is truth to this – at least for some “non-exclusive” members I know. There are a handful where I would say “Hmmm. Maybe not.” I grew up well-indoctrinated in exclusivity. I can remember looking around my Grade 1 class, thinking everybody there was going to hell. Except me and (maybe) the neighbor boy I liked. I was 13 when I first came across the prayer “Make me an instrument of your peace” (often attributed to St Francis) and my exclusive little soul cracked wide open. How could a Catholic monk (of all people) pen words that touched me so deeply, and (at the same time) make my soul soar? By the time I was 17 – 18 years old, I had done the math, and was quite comfortable with a sort of “I don’t know” kind of exclusivity. By the time I was 25, I had the realization that if I gave “outsiders” the same “benefit of the doubt” that I gave fellow members, then “outsiders” didn’t stack up too badly. It took me another 13 years to leave. I did not leave for exclusivity issues, but for other things that trespassed on my very being. I can point to about a half dozen “moments” – quantum leaps, if you will – where I recognized I no longer belonged in such a system.
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Post by SharonArnold on Nov 29, 2015 17:01:40 GMT -5
My answer is Yes. No wishy washy there. I believe 98% of workers will agree with me. Thanks for a definite answer. Your thinking that Maryhig is going to Hell (but you're going to Heaven)....well......no more to be said about exlusive thinking. I, for one, could not imagine Maryhig going to Hell.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2015 17:09:34 GMT -5
I tend to think of a non exclusive 2x2 in the 2x2 church in the same way I would view a straight man at a gay orgy. I'm happy to accept at face value his claim that he is straight, but I do wonder what on earth he is doing there. Of course, as a straight man, I have no desire to be at a gay orgy, however I'm quite sure I would be tolerated if I did decide to turn up ..... so long as I played along. It's always worth remembering that a gay orgy is still a gay orgy whether there are straight men there or not. Matt10 I never thought about it that way. So would non exclusive 2x2 going to a UU church be like a straight man going to bi orgy? I'd say a non exclusive 2x2 found at a UU event might best be likened to a straight man who'd suddenly realised that the orgy thing wasn't for him. Matt10
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2015 17:46:36 GMT -5
I tend to think of a non exclusive 2x2 in the 2x2 church in the same way I would view a straight man at a gay orgy. I'm happy to accept at face value his claim that he is straight, but I do wonder what on earth he is doing there. Of course, as a straight man, I have no desire to be at a gay orgy, however I'm quite sure I would be tolerated if I did decide to turn up ..... so long as I played along. It's always worth remembering that a gay orgy is still a gay orgy whether there are straight men there or not. Matt10 Interesting perspective. And I think there is truth to this ......... I grew up well-indoctrinated in exclusivity. I can remember looking around my Grade 1 class, thinking everybody there was going to hell. Except me and (maybe) the neighbor boy I liked.......... I did not leave for exclusivity issues, but for other things that trespassed on my very being. I can point to about a half dozen “moments” – quantum leaps, if you will – where I recognized I no longer belonged in such a system. I would hope that there is truth to most of what I write :-) ..... I too grew up well-conditioned (I've ceased using the 'I' word) in exclusivity and am eternally embarrassed to think how niaive I was to buy into such absurdity. Like you, I did not leave for exclusivity issues, but rather because I had come to the sudden realisation that the 2x2 church was a farce. I soon also came to the realisation that the concept of the Christian God was absurd at which point I fully embraced unbelief. Each time I read a post by a strident believer here, my unbelief is increased. Matt10
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Post by xna on Nov 29, 2015 18:00:28 GMT -5
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 29, 2015 18:49:08 GMT -5
Thanks for a definite answer. You're thinking that Maryhig is going to Hell....well......no more to be said about exlusive thinking. There was only one true way preached to heaven in my day. You could only be saved by hearing the workers preach the gospel to you. The only ones who had the true message were the ones that were sent & go as in the bible ie the workers. All other ways are false. Only a few will seek, and find that diamond in the field. All the rest are lost to hell. The exclusiveness was the allure. It's how you knew you found the one right way. If the 2x2 loose exclusivity, then I suspect they would soon die out. JMT Right! That was what was preached in my day as well! You had to hear the gospel through the workers and profess in the one true way which was called the *TRUTH* or *THE WAY* Other churches were " false."
Being "exclusive" was paramount to the belief of the *THE WAY.*
Yes, that idea of being the only true church gave one a feeling of being more important than others is probably the reason all "exclusive" groups, -religious or otherwise, -will cause people to put up with any number of oppressive regulations in order to remain a part of that exclusive group.
No, TV, no movies, no part of the "world" at all, no sports, -for women, no makeup, no short hair etc. Exclusivism is an effective tool to control people.
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