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Post by maryhig on Aug 12, 2015 0:30:43 GMT -5
I kind of wish we did it here. It would be a very special experience to break bread like that on Sunday morning at convention. We get pretty stuck on our traditions for sure. Not sure how the tradition became different there, but thats ok. Its nice here that just about every Sunday morning convention meeting, the Elder Worker, and usually the others as well speak about Christ, and his life and sacrifice for us. Its definitely a very special meeting because of this. JD - I think that's pretty common the world over - that Sunday morning meeting is focused on death/resurrection of Christ. It's just that now I'm used to it being mentioned every sermon because God's plan, past, present and future points to that pinnacle event. Our Sunday meeting focuses on God, and sharing the whole gospel, which is the life of Jesus and his resurrection. It's not all focused on the crucifixion!
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 12, 2015 0:33:58 GMT -5
Ros tell us plainly and clearly and honestly your motive and reason for asking the question please You have had so much to say about the NT Apostolic Church and how the F&W are following this, you don't mind having a dig at @ross about the Anglican Church and how wrong they are. Its suppose to be the unchanging way, the spirit is suppose to be the same the world over, so why the difference with something as important as the bread & wine? Did you miss this @review005
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 12, 2015 0:35:39 GMT -5
Thanks - everyone knows what I'm saying and believe except one person. Last time I checked I was a man. Ros can't get her question answered and I seem to get all the love - it must a male/female thing? I have grave doubts about Ros' motive and reason for asking. She won't state them, so I guess she's not too bothered about getting an answer or not.
It feels a bit like I'm back at school - when I post on Scripture Review005 marks it and gives the teacher's comments. If what you write is scriptural and true doctrine you will pass with flying colours, in fact I won't even need to be making comments!
But while you continue sly digs and cracks at the church your mother and other family members belong to.
While you try to uphold a ministry that doesn't agree with what Jesus taught in the NT.
While you give assent to infant baptism etc etc. Well....I guess you'll continue to receive low marks!
I am however very happy that you acknowledge that someone can be saved and then lose their salvation.
It would be great if you would come outright and state that!
@review005 I have stated them ! Maybe you feel @virgo's response was more appropriate ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 12, 2015 0:40:03 GMT -5
It would be great if you would come outright and state that you don't have an answer to the question @review005 !
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 12, 2015 0:58:30 GMT -5
Did you miss this @review005 Great! so your motive is that you don't like me posting when he makes posts that don't line up with Scripture So you want to have a crack back by asking why they have bread and wine in Aust
Pathetic! then you wonder why I mostly ignore you? Smarten up and post something meaningful like Mary hig or exes like What hat and I'll start reading your posts again.[/quote @review005 maybe you need to go back through a few posts, I believe I asked you the question at least 2 or 3 days ago, when nathan first questioned @ross about Conventions in Oz not being tested on Saturday nights ! I was raised to believe that the bread & wine was a serious thing, it sure seems to be the minute a person marries an outsider or is divorced. If you cannot answer the question why not just say so ! As I said maybe you agree more with replies like @virgo's ! By the way pathetic would be what I would call a person who blames a child of Domestic Violence for not reporting their father, especially when the person is suppose to be a worker !
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Post by whyisitso on Aug 12, 2015 0:58:47 GMT -5
Ross does that mean that you're from the 'once saved always saved' analogy? So long as you commit your life to Christ, doesn't matter if you slip up now and again and become an axe murderer, just so long as its not all the time! I think its mentioned a few times of striving.....and that word terrible.....has it altered in meaning slightly? Mmmmmm.....not sure, but I prefer to be careful and prayerful. I heard it a lot in the 2x2 church as a sign of false churches....but I've never heard it preached since changing churches. I do know that once God saves us, he will continue to save us as long as we continue to trust Him and don't reject or turn our back on Him. That's clear from the Bible. I also know that the Children of Israel didn't enter the promised land because of their righteousness (Deut 9) and neither will we. I can't earn God's favour by my performance so I don't get caught up in that kind of human thinking. I do know that in response to God saving me by His grace that he wants me to love Him, trust Him and obey Him today and for the future. I try to do that as best I can, albeit very imperfectly. Is this what you're 'looking' for review?
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 12, 2015 0:59:24 GMT -5
You didn't answer the question @review005, so here it is again ! Why is Australia the only place that has the bread & wine at Convention ? coz it is hot there and they get thirsty and it's always nice to nibble when having wine
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 12, 2015 1:07:37 GMT -5
I suppose we could ask if the F&W follow the Apostolic Church of the New Testament as @review005 seems to think, shouldn't it be the same the world over ? here it is @review005 ! Note the date !
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 12, 2015 1:27:17 GMT -5
[/quote @review005 maybe you need to go back through a few posts, I believe I asked you the question at least 2 or 3 days ago, when nathan first questioned @ross about Conventions in Oz not being tested on Saturday nights ! I was raised to believe that the bread & wine was a serious thing, it sure seems to be the minute a person marries an outsider or is divorced. If you cannot answer the question why not just say so ! As I said maybe you agree more with replies like @virgo's ! By the way pathetic would be what I would call a person who blames a child of Domestic Violence for not reporting their father, especially when the person is suppose to be a worker !
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Post by maryhig on Aug 12, 2015 1:37:40 GMT -5
Thanks - I don't know how many times I have to say it! Yuup I guess that is as good as it is going to get. I assume it means the same as a plain 'A person can get saved and then because of their actions/attitudes become unsaved and lost again' I am sincerely appreciative that we do have this common ground! Thanks! Review I, like you, believe that anyone who turns back can lose God through their own lusts The bible tells you that clearly Even the parable of the talents tells you that. The one that buried his talent and didn't use it wisely had it removed and given the the one who was doing the work. And so it is with Gods spirit and his kingdom. Also 2 Peter 2 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2015 2:09:47 GMT -5
coz it is hot there and they get thirsty and it's always nice to nibble when having wine Wow @virgo, is that what the bread & wine mean to you ? do you seriously believe that? you'er giving your country a bad name
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Post by Mary on Aug 12, 2015 2:13:35 GMT -5
And my question also has not been answered by review005 so i am left with the understanding that he does believe he is an apostle. If this is not correct your might like to correct it. Mind you i am yet to hear of any miracles of healing he has perform like the apostles did.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2015 2:15:25 GMT -5
And my question also has not been answered by review005 so i am left with the understanding that he does believe he is an apostle. If this is not correct your might like to correct it. and is your question important?
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Post by Mary on Aug 12, 2015 2:17:30 GMT -5
Yep as important as reviews or anyone elses questions. I added some to my post after which did not come up in your quote.
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 12, 2015 2:38:15 GMT -5
Wow @virgo, is that what the bread & wine mean to you ? do you seriously believe that? you'er giving your country a bad name Mmmm well you are sure giving your country a great name @virgo, making statements like that. I don't think the bread & wine is something that should be joked about, but then that might just be how I was raised !
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2015 2:43:20 GMT -5
do you seriously believe that? you'er giving your country a bad name Mmmm well you are sure giving your country a great name @virgo, making statements like that. I don't think the bread & wine is something that should be joked about, but then that might just be how I was raised ! yawn
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 12, 2015 2:48:27 GMT -5
Wow Virgo nice language there What has it got to do with us .... well because we were B&R and have a lot of family that still go to meetings why wouldn't it have anything to do with us ? You don't seem to understand @virgo that after 5 generations there are a lot of things you don't just forget overnight ! and i say again so b-l-o-o-d-y what? ?? frankly i don't really if care you were B&R and have a lot of family that still go to meetings, i don't really care that after 5 generations there are a lot of things you don't just forget overnight ! all you seem to want to do is tear us down
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 12, 2015 3:13:55 GMT -5
Mmmm well you are sure giving your country a great name @virgo, making statements like that. I don't think the bread & wine is something that should be joked about, but then that might just be how I was raised ! yawn @virgo I think you need convocation, wasn't that the word ! The word convention came from apparently !
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Post by jondough on Aug 12, 2015 8:56:25 GMT -5
Review I, like you, believe that anyone who turns back can lose God through their own lusts The bible tells you that clearly Even the parable of the talents tells you that. The one that buried his talent and didn't use it wisely had it removed and given the the one who was doing the work. And so it is with Gods spirit and his kingdom. Also 2 Peter 2 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. I think every Christian agrees with you! The key difference between what you and I brlieve (apart from what Jesus did while on the cross) is that you appear to believe that your efforts and performance will determine whether you are saved. I don't. Happy to be corrected but that's how it appears. Ross, I'm not so sure that your belief is so different in this as well (what we can/must do). Lets just think about the "adoption" process. When a parent adopts a child, the child becomes a part of their family. Takes on the family name, and enjoys everything that everyone else that is a part of the family enjoys, including being loved as much as everyone. You are right, there is nothing that the child has done to deserve this. But, there are certain things expected of the child; 1. That the child would love the family would be the very most important thing. Of course if there is true love, then the love would result in many other things that the child would do because of their love that would come automatic. 2. Obedience to his/her parents Those would be the two main ones. I'm sure there are many more, but you get the point. Although its not BECAUSE of items 1, 2, they are necessary in order to enjoy being a part of the family. I'm pretty sure we all believe that the same goes for our adoption into our spiritual family.
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Post by blandie on Aug 12, 2015 12:42:56 GMT -5
Works do not save us they are evidence that we are saved. You may want to look again at the verse you quoted because it says that works are evidence of our own faith and not evidence of our salvation or telling that we need to work for our salvation. We don't even have to work to have faith because even the faith that produces salvation isn't worked for or produced from ourselves - it is a free gift out God's grace just as salvation is - Eph 2:8. The best we can produce are 'filthy rags' not righteousness - Isaiah 64:6 - and the righteous life we are required to lead isn't our own but is christ's righteousness imputed to us - Rom 5:10,18. Going too far by selectively reading the scriptures by the lights of man-centered interpretation to support a requirement is wresting the scriptures. The bible doesn't say that our works have anything to do with salvation - full stop. The bible doesn't say that some sort of standard of works by us are a requirement - full stop. The 'good news' is that he did it all - once for all - providing both propitiation and forgiveness for all sin and clothing us in his righteousness as a free gift and all while we were yet sinners and not based upon our striving.
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Post by Mary on Aug 12, 2015 13:33:12 GMT -5
What are these good works you talk about, review? Can you name some?
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Post by fixit on Aug 12, 2015 14:25:41 GMT -5
Wow Virgo nice language there What has it got to do with us .... well because we were B&R and have a lot of family that still go to meetings why wouldn't it have anything to do with us ? You don't seem to understand @virgo that after 5 generations there are a lot of things you don't just forget overnight ! and i say again so b-l-o-o-d-y what? ?? frankly i don't really if care you were B&R and have a lot of family that still go to meetings, i don't really care that after 5 generations there are a lot of things you don't just forget overnight ! all you seem to want to do is tear us down You tear yourself down Virgo.
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Post by Mary on Aug 12, 2015 15:31:52 GMT -5
I hear stories like this often where people change their lives after believing. Not to say non Christians dont also get convicted of things and change.
I wonder why there's always a comparison between churches vs you guys rather than non Christian coming to Christ. Would be good to hear of non believers accepting Christ. It's always about how people left their churches not about non believers coming to Christ.
I know of examples where professing people were ripping others off.
Customers saying the man's milk was so much better? Must be an old story as it has been many years since people have sold their milk to customers.
Im not really asking for one story that you once heard which had been going around for years although it's a good start. What good works do you see around you. I can think of those who help the homeless run soup kitchens etc without any reward in it for them other than show kindness to others. Also helping the widows and fatherless. Out there in the big world helping others. Good works will follow those who believe without any hope of a reward from others.
These kind of good works were often mocked by people in meetings. A woman putting her hair up was considered a sign of works but they are not good works.
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Post by SharonArnold on Aug 12, 2015 15:51:29 GMT -5
I hear stories like this often where people change their lives after believing. Not to say non Christians dont also get convicted of things and change. I wonder why there's always a comparison between churches vs you guys rather than non Christian coming to Christ. Would be good to hear of non believers accepting Christ. It's always about how people left their churches not about non believers coming to Christ. I know of examples where professing people were ripping others off. Customers saying the man's milk was so much better? Must be an old story as it has been many years since people have sold their milk to customers. Im not really asking for one story that you once heard which had been going around for years although it's a good start. What good works do you see around you. I can think of those who help the homeless run soup kitchens etc without any reward in it for them other than show kindness to others. Also helping the widows and fatherless. Out there in the big world helping others. Good works will follow those who believe without any hope of a reward from others. These kind of good works were often mocked by people in meetings. A woman putting her hair up was considered a sign of works but they are not good works. I don't think you have to go as far as soup kitchens. Or widows and the fatherless. I heard a quote the other day that has stayed with me: "Listening is an act of love". How much do you listen - truly listen - to those you are closest to, and those you encounter in an ordinary day? I think sometimes it is easy to get caught up in verbiage, in terminology, and it is so easy to dismiss the simple things that are truly 'real'.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 12, 2015 16:23:52 GMT -5
Mary, I hesitated to answer your question because my experience of dialogue with you have been unpleasant; I have been unable to have any meaningful or helpful dialogue with you. But I thought I will give it one last try. I shouldn't have bothered; I won't do that again. I enjoy dialogue with non members like Mary Hig, ex members like What hat. It's really hard to have a conversation with someone you think is constantly playing a game of gotcha. Maybe that isn't what is intended but it is what is perceived. Every question is a gotcha question - so you aren't inclined to answer. Some say perception is reality - it is for those on the receiving end of gotcha questions. The gotcha question perception is not entirely the fault of the person perceiving it - it's definitely a two way street. What can people with genuine questions do to remove the gotcha flavor? Anyone have any ideas? Maybe show a sincere desire to actually listen to what the answers are like SharonArnold mentioned? How do we show genuine sincerity and not add the gotcha flavor to the question?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2015 16:32:38 GMT -5
What are these good works you talk about, review? Can you name some? When a person is saved they receive the Spirit of Christ. It works within them convicting them and prompting them and giving them power to do many things that they never did before. I know one man who was brought up in a Christian family that went to church. He had some cows and his living was from selling the milk. He used to add water to the milk before selling it. After he listened to the Gospel through two sister workers he was born again and received the Spirit of Christ. It convicted him of the dishonesty he was involved in. So he stopped adding water to the milk. He didn't say anything to anyone. However his customers started saying to him Mr .... your milk is so much better these days. So he would tell them that he had attended the meetings of two of God's servants and had received salvation and a new spiritual life that he never got while he went to church and that God has convicted him of his dishonest practice. Happily because of his testimony a number of others also started listening and got salvation and new life that going to local church had not given them. That is one example that comes to mind. Here's another example. It's worth remembering that the Christian God does not have a monopoly on changing lives. Indeed one could argue that the milk watering change is much less remarkable than this life changing experience. Matt10 Angel, a former Christian, narrates her story about her conversion to Islam.I always believed in one God. My entire life during hardship, I asked God for help even as a child. I remember crying on my knees in the kitchen, screaming and crying all around me; praying to God to make it stop. Religion on the other hand never did make sense. The older I got, the less it really made sense to me. People thinking they were the negotiator between you and God also made no sense to me. I felt the same about Jesus, (may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him). How does it work that this man would save us all from our sins? Why do we have the right to sin just because of him? I refused the Bible in all of its versions; believing, something translated and rewritten so many times could not to be the real words of God. Around the age of 15, I had given up on the idea of finding God. Growing up, my family was the average American family. Everyone I knew had similar problems growing up. My dad was a hardworking blue collar alcoholic. As time progressed his condition worsened, and so did his perversion. Sexual abuse, physical abuse, and fear made an imprint on my childhood that would reflect the rest of my life. He passed away when I was in the sixth grade. My parents had divorced by then. I was the youngest of eight children. My mother would go to work to support us, and I was home alone a lot. Here I was, one of those kids who pull from society, who scare people when they walk into a room. I began wearing black clothing and the dark makeup. I listened to the gothic music and fantasized about death. Death seemed to be less of fear and more of solution to this growing problem. I felt alone all time, even around friends. I tried to fill the gap with cigarettes, then alcohol, sex, drugs and then anything that would take me from my own thoughts. I tried to kill myself at least 15 times. No matter how much I tried, this pain inside me never seemed to quiet down. I was in college when I became pregnant. I feared for my son’s health and worked endlessly for him. Squeezing all my pain and anger, I changed my life, while trusting no one. Three years later, I started to date again and got engaged. As with past experiences, my world came crashing down. I was 25 and pregnant with my daughter and ended the relationship with my fiancé after he repeatedly cheated and physically hurt me. I had no idea what was next. During this time I was working for a Pakistani guy who was Muslim. I never watched the news or even cared really what was going on. Being Muslim to me was no different than any other religion. As time moved on, I became friends with several Muslim men. I began to notice something dramatically different. They had these unquestionable morals. A devotion to God in a way that required them to pray five times a day. Let alone the fact that they did not drink or used drugs. For my generation these were old school morals, maybe your grandparents might have followed. When my daughter was born, you can’t imagine my surprise when one of these guys came in and brought gifts. I was shocked stupid he held her and spoke to her. I had never seen men behave this way over a baby. The kindness only increased with time over the next four months. I can’t express the love that was shown to us. Slowly my interest in their religion grew. I was curious as to what kind of religion could instill these kinds of values into people. I was sharing a home with seven people when one night I decided to borrow my roommate’s computer. I was too afraid to offend my friends by asking them questions, so I turned to the Internet. The first site I opened was www.islam-brief-guide.org. I was dumbfounded. It was as if a black cloth had been lifted from my body, and I swear that I had never felt so close to God. Within 24 hours, I took my Shahadah. To this day the majority of my time is spent on research. For the first time in my life something had stopped the anger, and the agonizing pain. I truly felt the love and fear of God. God had replaced the pain inside me with His light, and faith in Him. Since then, God has truly blessed me. He gave me the strength to quit smoking, drinking and have not used drugs since almost two years. I am married to a wonderful Muslim man. He has taken my children and made them ours. I have something that I always wanted — a family, (all praise is due to God). www.arabnews.com/how-islam-changed-ex-christian’s-life
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Post by hberry on Aug 12, 2015 16:44:27 GMT -5
What are these good works you talk about, review? Can you name some? When a person is saved they receive the Spirit of Christ. It works within them convicting them and prompting them and giving them power to do many things that they never did before. I know one man who was brought up in a Christian family that went to church. He had some cows and his living was from selling the milk. He used to add water to the milk before selling it. After he listened to the Gospel through two sister workers he was born again and received the Spirit of Christ. It convicted him of the dishonesty he was involved in. So he stopped adding water to the milk. He didn't say anything to anyone. However his customers started saying to him Mr .... your milk is so much better these days. So he would tell them that he had attended the meetings of two of God's servants and had received salvation and a new spiritual life that he never got while he went to church and that God has convicted him of his dishonest practice. Happily because of his testimony a number of others also started listening and got salvation and new life that going to local church had not given them. That is one example that comes to mind. In looking at your example, I think this would fall under the category of honesty, a principle of God's law. So, am I right that I could extrapolate from this example the principle that the indwelling Spirit of Christ will enable us to love and seek to keep the law (I believe Paul would approve)--which you are here referring to as "good works"? I am not in any way, shape, or form criticizing the thought, just wanting to clarify that to you, honesty (in this case not cheating someone) falls under the category of "good works." (To quote from JesseL above, this is not 'a gotcha' question.) I usually think of "good works" as acts of charity (not that I'm any expert on "good works,") but these too would also come under the category of keeping the law from the heart. When the gospel gripped my heart a few years ago, I became convicted of a variety of things relating to my interactions with others and I noticed that I was being changed--being transformed by the renewing of my mind as Paul would say--and the principles of God's law came alive for me. I'm thankful to God for that continuing heart change, and always glad to see and hear of the same transformation happening to others. It is encouraging.
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Post by maryhig on Aug 12, 2015 17:05:25 GMT -5
Review I, like you, believe that anyone who turns back can lose God through their own lusts The bible tells you that clearly Even the parable of the talents tells you that. The one that buried his talent and didn't use it wisely had it removed and given the the one who was doing the work. And so it is with Gods spirit and his kingdom. Also 2 Peter 2 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. I think every Christian agrees with you! The key difference between what you and I brlieve (apart from what Jesus did while on the cross) is that you appear to believe that your efforts and performance will determine whether you are saved. I don't. Happy to be corrected but that's how it appears. Ross. I don't know if you've read my posts, but I have clearly said many times that it's not my works but Christ by the spirit cleaning my heart. I have said, I'm nothing, I'm dust. I can't clean my heart out, but I can deny my sin, the spirit in my heart and through others is showing me my sins. Sins I never realised I had. And I have to deny them. The the more I deny them. The stronger the spirit becomes in me. And Christ is guiding me and cleaning my heart, through his righteousness. If he wasn't with me then I would be dead in my sins. Because I would think I'm ok and I'm good. I would be blind to many of my faults. Licking myself clean. But Christ has shone a light into my heart, and with that light, he has not only shown me God. But he has also showed me my sins. And if I keep my faith and love for God. He will gradually help me overcome them You can continually post that I appear to think I'm saved by my own efforts, even though I continually tell you that it's Christ that is saving me. And without him and the holy spirit I'm nothing. I don't know how many times I have to say this? The works I have to do is, love God with all my heart, have faith, let Christ clean my heart. And live out what the spirit within my heart is teaching me. And deny my sins that are being shown to me and follow Jesus. But I can't do any of this without God, and Christ by the spirit saves me daily, if I die daily. If I didn't have the spirit in my heart, i would fall at the first hurdle, because Satan is too strong for me. And I need Christ to help me overcome!
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