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Post by snow on Aug 11, 2015 9:50:15 GMT -5
Perhaps our science people can help us....you know how we have receptors in our bodies for certain things like pain, maybe that's what happens when we listen to Gods word, we hear and decipher to our iwn way of thinking. I have never seen any data that would indicate that there are "God's Word" receptors. By there has been a lot of research on the way people can look at events and in their mind make the perceived events conform to their way of thinking. It is like that Shakespeare phrase - " Nothing is good or bad but thinking makes it so." I don't know, I'm reading a book called "The God Virus' at the moment. Not quite receptors or is it...? I think you're right about good and bad being what we think it to be.
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Post by snow on Aug 11, 2015 9:52:54 GMT -5
Actually no where that I am aware of does it say God knew Satan and one third of his angels were going to rebel. That is an assumption on your part because you believe your God knows everything. But there is a lot in the bible that doesn't actually support that premise. God seems to be taken by surprise a lot and then he get's upset and rains down his wrath when things don't go his way. And from time to time s/he changes her/his mind. That should never happen. hmm well when Lawrence Krauss confronted William Lang Craig with this same belief Craig told him that because God was the core of all that is, then nothing changes, just gets improved on as his children morally evolve. So as you can see God doesn't change and there is an answer to justify just about anything!
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Post by maryhig on Aug 11, 2015 9:55:52 GMT -5
Maryhig, I am VERY happy to respond and try to answer any questions you ask! I find your spirit and attitude so pleasant and refreshing here on TMB. That verse is Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. So I think we need to read that in the context of the verses before and after it. Jesus spoke it in the context of the troubles of the end times. Having said that I believe a person can lose their salvation. God will never forsake us but if we forsake God, rebel and turn from his then..... The 'one saved always saved' people reason it out this way.... They say once you are saved you are always saved and you can never lose your salvation. So if a person is a Christian and fruits of Christ seen in them and then they turn from God then they say "Oh they were never saved to start with"!!! So really it is a foolish/silly doctrine they have. Two example that quickly come to mind Judas was chosen and an Apostle.....and then? These OSAS people foolishly say he was never saved. The Ephesian church in Rev 2 "therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent".The way they will explain that one away is they will have some theory about removing thy candlestick not being a losing of salvation!!!! you wrote
"I know Ross and others believe that they are already saved, but I don't believe this,"
We do get saved when accept Christ.....but if we choose to later reject him then obviously we lose our salvation! Believe on him, accept him as our Lord =salvation Later if we discontinue to believe on him and accept him as our Lord then we don't need to be a 'rocket scientist' to understand that we lose the salvation we once had!! The way we get saved is the way we keep saved!! Thank you for explaining that to me, I would say that is similar to the way I believe. Because I believe whilst Christ is with me, I'm being saved from Satan daily by the spirit teaching me and giving me strength to overcome. And Christ by the spirit will only be with me if I'm following Jesus. If I turn away, he leaves me. It's my doing, not Gods. But I believe God loves us and if we truly repent he forgives us. But we have to be careful as to not take advantage of his love for us. That's why I can't say I'm eternally saved. Because I am flesh and sin always. I hope and pray that God has mercy on me and stays with me and that Christ gives me strength daily to overcome. So that Satan can't get a hold on me. Like Jesus said about Peter, Satan wants to sift you as wheat, but but I have prayed for you. So if Satan has his eyes on Peter. Then he's definitely got his eyes on me! So I can never say I'm eternally saved. As I am flesh and can turn at anytime. I hope I make sense, it's sometimes hard to explain in writing thanks again!
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Post by maryhig on Aug 11, 2015 10:11:14 GMT -5
Maryhig, I think the easiest way to understand this is by one of the greatest natural gifts God has given us in order to be able to understand it. That is, our own natural family. I think you have a daughter - do you not? If you're daughter makes a mistake, or does something wrong, does she risk losing her place in your family? Because she is not perfect, would you even consider renouncing her as your daughter? So long as she loves you, trust you, respects you and obeys you, I'm sure you could never think of renouncing her. Sending her away. God's love is far greater than our own. Now I'm not saying that she couldn't do things that would cause her to lose her place. But you have to think of if like the above, and you will find even more joy in having a place. It will be more joy and less fear (not fear for God) but just being afraid all the time that you may be losing your place. Sorry about butting in, as I'm sure Review will also have a good take on this. When I learned the above, it just helped me appreciate and enjoy my place in this great family even more. Hiya Yes I understand what you mean but I do believe we can walk away, that's why I believe we can't say that we are eternally saved, and i believe we won't know until we leave our bodies and then God gives us our place. Like the prodigal son, the father desperately wanted him back, but he didn't do the chasing, the son had to return. And if my son said he was going and he was going against my wishes I couldn't stop him. But I'd hope and pray that he would come back to me. That's why I could never say certain people aren't going to heaven or say that this group are and this group aren't. Because we don't know what God thinks of everyone. I just look at myself, and ask God to guide me. And try and fight the sin in my heart with the help of the spirit. But I know that if I keep my faith and love God and hold on. Then he won't leave me. But I have to keep holding on and denying that old fox Satan! And I have complete faith that if I hold on, that Christ will give me the strength to overcome. If I go wrong, I know it's my doing, not Gods. I hope I've explained myself right. I have to write in detail because sometimes people read what I've written in a different way to what I mean! it's me, that's why I explain myself so much
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Post by jondough on Aug 11, 2015 10:50:08 GMT -5
Maryhig, I think the easiest way to understand this is by one of the greatest natural gifts God has given us in order to be able to understand it. That is, our own natural family. I think you have a daughter - do you not? If you're daughter makes a mistake, or does something wrong, does she risk losing her place in your family? Because she is not perfect, would you even consider renouncing her as your daughter? So long as she loves you, trust you, respects you and obeys you, I'm sure you could never think of renouncing her. Sending her away. God's love is far greater than our own. Now I'm not saying that she couldn't do things that would cause her to lose her place. But you have to think of if like the above, and you will find even more joy in having a place. It will be more joy and less fear (not fear for God) but just being afraid all the time that you may be losing your place. Sorry about butting in, as I'm sure Review will also have a good take on this. When I learned the above, it just helped me appreciate and enjoy my place in this great family even more. Hiya Yes I understand what you mean but I do believe we can walk away, that's why I believe we can't say that we are eternally saved, and i believe we won't know until we leave our bodies and then God gives us our place. Like the prodigal son, the father desperately wanted him back, but he didn't do the chasing, the son had to return. And if my son said he was going and he was going against my wishes I couldn't stop him. But I'd hope and pray that he would come back to me. That's why I could never say certain people aren't going to heaven or say that this group are and this group aren't. Because we don't know what God thinks of everyone. I just look at myself, and ask God to guide me. And try and fight the sin in my heart with the help of the spirit. But I know that if I keep my faith and love God and hold on. Then he won't leave me. But I have to keep holding on and denying that old fox Satan! And I have complete faith that if I hold on, that Christ will give me the strength to overcome. If I go wrong, I know it's my doing, not Gods. I hope I've explained myself right. I have to write in detail because sometimes people read what I've written in a different way to what I mean! it's me, that's why I explain myself so much I really think we are all saying pretty much the same thing. I think "once saved always saved" is a bad term to use, and from what I read of everyone's post, I don't think they believe that literally. From what I read, I think all of us know it's possible to turn from God and lose our place. Obedience is necessary. I think the way Review explained it above is how most people believe - even Ross - though the two would have a hard time ever saying they agree with each other . I do remember preaching back in the day, when a Worker said something to the affect of "only 1/2 of the people in this tent are going to make it". About a year ago, I was in a meeting with a 17 year old boy that stood up and repeated these words, and with tears in his eyes said he believed he was on the side that wasn't going to make it. It was really sad that he was living with that type of fear and guilt. He was a really really good kid that probably thought he was going to hell because he had ran a red light. Probably hadn't prayed long enough or something. I don't hear that type of preaching going on anymore, and I don't hear it in what Review is saying either. Review, you can correct me if I'm wrong. But I really do think we all agree on this Mary. Like many of the arguments here, many are over terminology, and communication.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 11, 2015 11:00:38 GMT -5
[Lastly, there is a small group like Jesse and howitis who believe that there are saved people outside and they continue to be saved to eternal life as they fellowship with another group. That's not quite accurate. In my interactions with people the thinking "are they saved or not" doesn't enter my mind. I've erased it from my thinking process. Like I've mentioned before, (you commented on it Fred), I treat everyone I interact with as if they are as saved as I think I am. I think the thinking "are they saved or not" needs to be eliminated to truly live the second commandment "Love your neighbor as yourself" and other things Jesus taught, like moat and beam.
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Post by maryhig on Aug 11, 2015 11:05:33 GMT -5
Maryhig, I am VERY happy to respond and try to answer any questions you ask! I find your spirit and attitude so pleasant and refreshing here on TMB. That verse is Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. So I think we need to read that in the context of the verses before and after it. Jesus spoke it in the context of the troubles of the end times. Having said that I believe a person can lose their salvation. God will never forsake us but if we forsake God, rebel and turn from his then..... The 'one saved always saved' people reason it out this way.... They say once you are saved you are always saved and you can never lose your salvation. So if a person is a Christian and fruits of Christ seen in them and then they turn from God then they say "Oh they were never saved to start with"!!! So really it is a foolish/silly doctrine they have. Two example that quickly come to mind Judas was chosen and an Apostle.....and then? These OSAS people foolishly say he was never saved. The Ephesian church in Rev 2 "therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent".The way they will explain that one away is they will have some theory about removing thy candlestick not being a losing of salvation!!!! you wrote
"I know Ross and others believe that they are already saved, but I don't believe this,"
We do get saved when accept Christ.....but if we choose to later reject him then obviously we lose our salvation! Believe on him, accept him as our Lord =salvation Later if we discontinue to believe on him and accept him as our Lord then we don't need to be a 'rocket scientist' to understand that we lose the salvation we once had!! The way we get saved is the way we keep saved!! I'm probably in the middle, I know that Christ through the spirit is saving me, but I'm flesh so I can turn back. So I can't say I'm eternally saved, I would worry about doing that as only God knows my heart and he knows it a whole lot more than I do! like Peter said to Jesus, I will never deny you, then he did. And the rich man who said he had kept all the commandments but Jesus found his faults. So I never say never. I just put my life in Gods hands and try and follow Jesus as best I can. And leave my eternal salvation with God. Because he knows me, better than I know me!
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 11, 2015 11:17:24 GMT -5
The same holds true in the opposite sense. Elizabeth acted like howitis was brain dead or blind to not know the absolute truth that "they consider themselves the only true believers." And went further by saying if she didn't believe it now she would in the future. After all we are in a cult and all brainwashed with cult think, Elizabeth wrote a book about that. Obviously some don't fit in Elizabeth's absolute truth statement "they consider themselves the only true believers." So as you said, negating that experience and denying that it is a belief within the system does not do much for the credibility of those who deny it. Obviously some don't fit into that bunch. That's why absolute statements about groups of people generally are not accurate. Each person within that group are individuals (obviously) and are free to hold whatever belief they wish. But some do. Since I no longer have much contact with the group other than a few of the friends I've known since I left and on here, I don't have any idea what percentage of the group still feel this way. My experience happened 47 years ago when I was 12. (yes I'm old lol..) So I have to believe people when they say they don't feel that way and that they don't hear it preached anymore. But I have to question why exes are still experiencing family telling them they are lost out when they leave if it doesn't still occur in some instances? Just because some exes generalize the group doesn't mean that professing folk should generalize the exes. Two wrongs don't make a right. It seems like you are saying; because Elizabeth has generalized the beliefs of all those professing, we can also generalize the experiences of all the exes. Both are not accurate imo and tend to cause a bigger divide as we see on here daily. Calling exes bitter because they are still in reaction mode to what they have been put through, or denying that it happens, just serves to widen the gap. Calling their old church a 'particularly dangerous cult' also serves to widen the gap. Neither are helpful. But what I see is frustration on both sides because they feel the other side is generalizing and not listening or even denying personal beliefs and experiences happen. If you are happy in your group and have not experienced shunning, it's pretty hard to understand I imagine, but not acknowledging that it happens just makes it worse. Here's an interesting fact: leaving - especially the way some exes do it with judgmental exit letters, books, and other publications - is an exclusive act. There is really no way around it. We had a thread about it a while back; professing.proboards.com/thread/18748
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Post by snow on Aug 11, 2015 11:33:42 GMT -5
Actually no where that I am aware of does it say God knew Satan and one third of his angels were going to rebel. That is an assumption on your part because you believe your God knows everything. But there is a lot in the bible that doesn't actually support that premise. God seems to be taken by surprise a lot and then he get's upset and rains down his wrath when things don't go his way. I believe MY Godhead- Father, Christ, and Holy spirit They are omnipresent ("present everywhere"):
Psa 139:7-13 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee. For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
They are omnipotent ("all powerful"):
Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Rom 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
They are omniscient ("all knowing"): 1 Cor 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
Yes, I know you do and I do know that's the definition of the Christian God. But there are so many times God seems very surprised and confused as to why his creation isn't doing what it aught to! It also raises a lot of moral questions about him. But that's a different subject.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 11, 2015 11:40:53 GMT -5
Interesting my wife and I were just talking about the freedom we have to think things through for ourselves. That is so obvious in our home meeting and the one we were visitors in hundreds of miles away yesterday morning. That individual freedom makes for very edifying and interesting meetings. Like jondough I love it and wouldn't trade it for anything else. Jesse ~ I have to admit, your experience is surely different from this gal's story over in Ireland! She grew up within the 2x2's and later left and shares her experiences within the group. Reading this accounting today, I didn't get the impression of "individual freedom" to "think things through for ourselves" in what she shared? It was more like workers doing the "thinking" for you and setting the lifestyle standards. Perhaps conditions are much different in her "neck of the woods" compared to where you live today? But, if so, where is the unity in beliefs within the meetings all over the world that you claim exists? Perhaps a better question to ask is "unity in what shared beliefs?" An exclusive mindset perhaps shared by the majority of "old timers" within the group? But what about the young folks? Do they really buy into all the "carried-on traditions" of the past? If so, why are they leaving in large numbers today? dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/two-by-twos-by-someone-who-grew-up-and-out-of-the-movement/#comments Someone Who Grew Up and Out of the Movement A narrative as vituperative and opinionated as that obviously doesn't represent the reality of the fellowship for the vast majority of the people in it. Why do you keep dredging up type III apostate narratives like that as if they represent the whole truth of the fellowship? Like this; Pathetic. Foolish and perfidious generalizations like that don't help too much with the author's credibility. I like how Irvine Grey got told by the moderator he was abusing the site. Spiritual unity doesn't mean united about temporal things - it means united by the Holy Spirit. It is a pretty simple concept. All the petty criticisms: the workers don't break off car antennas any more? oh nooo the way changed... it's supposed to stay the same... that's baaad! The fact is Spiritual unity isn't about those kinds of things. I suppose we could ask if the F&W follow the Apostolic Church of the New Testament as @review005 seems to think, shouldn't it be the same the world over ? The point of unity is not being united about, but united by: United by the Holy Spirit in a one generation family. We don't create and maintain the unity, the Spirit does. John 17. Yesterday I was a visitor in a meeting hundreds of miles a way. I walked into a house I hadn't ever been in before, and met with people I had never met before. It was as amazing as it always is. As I listened to everyone I wondered about the great gulf between what you read here about the fellowship and the reality of a Sunday morning meeting. It's like this board is referencing a fellowship, but it's certainly not the one I'm in. Think about all the participatory fellowship meetings that take place without workers present to keep the participants whipped into automatonic conformation - could the unity be the work of the Spirit? Of course! We are united by the Spirit in those meetings.
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Post by snow on Aug 11, 2015 11:48:57 GMT -5
Obviously some don't fit into that bunch. That's why absolute statements about groups of people generally are not accurate. Each person within that group are individuals (obviously) and are free to hold whatever belief they wish. But some do. Since I no longer have much contact with the group other than a few of the friends I've known since I left and on here, I don't have any idea what percentage of the group still feel this way. My experience happened 47 years ago when I was 12. (yes I'm old lol..) So I have to believe people when they say they don't feel that way and that they don't hear it preached anymore. But I have to question why exes are still experiencing family telling them they are lost out when they leave if it doesn't still occur in some instances? Just because some exes generalize the group doesn't mean that professing folk should generalize the exes. Two wrongs don't make a right. It seems like you are saying; because Elizabeth has generalized the beliefs of all those professing, we can also generalize the experiences of all the exes. Both are not accurate imo and tend to cause a bigger divide as we see on here daily. Calling exes bitter because they are still in reaction mode to what they have been put through, or denying that it happens, just serves to widen the gap. Calling their old church a 'particularly dangerous cult' also serves to widen the gap. Neither are helpful. But what I see is frustration on both sides because they feel the other side is generalizing and not listening or even denying personal beliefs and experiences happen. If you are happy in your group and have not experienced shunning, it's pretty hard to understand I imagine, but not acknowledging that it happens just makes it worse. Here's an interesting fact: leaving - especially the way some exes do it with judgmental exit letters, books, and other publications - is an exclusive act. There is really no way around it. We had a thread about it a while back; professing.proboards.com/thread/18748 I agree that those who have left and continued on in the Christian religion but just in a different version of it, they do tend to be more exclusive. I imagine some of it is a defense mechanism because if you have grown up believing you are in the one true church and that if you leave for a false church you will lose your salvation, there must be some level of angst on their part when they do make that move. I know when I started to question if God even existed, that was a very scary place to be for quite awhile. So it is possible that there is some need to justify the move and for some more than others. For some it may be an unconscious reaction to fear they've made a mistake. Especially at first and especially if they have family that are telling them what a terrible mistake they have made. What you are raised to believe is a pretty major world view to carry with you even when you no longer believe in it. Children raised a certain way never get rid of all the early conditioning completely and that applies to many things, not just religion. There is a lot at stake when you move from a religion that you were told was the only way of getting into heaven. So there is angst at first. If the experience has been particularly unpleasant there is likely a need to write letters etc. I don't know because I never wrote one and really never occurred to me to write one. People all deal with their stress and fears differently. If you have been in the group for a long time and you leave that has to be very traumatic. It was hard enough for me and I did the move, at least mentally, at a very young age. To leave friends and family after many years in a certain lifestyle must be very hard. I know of a couple that can't leave because they have been part of it for more than 70 years and they are just not able to face the possibility that their children and life long friends will not have anything to do with them anymore. So they stay. They lost friends when the Alberta fiasco happened. They were excommunicated and so they were taboo to continue having anything to do with. So they know what happens when you leave because they have nothing to do with those friends anymore. Orders from the workers at that time. So don't be too judgmental of those who write books or exit letters. They are handling their 'trauma' in a way that works for them. I think it can also be guaranteed that the writings are going to be a bit skewed because of high emotions involved. But that does not make their experience any less of the truth because it's how they feel and what they experienced no matter what others might think of it.
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Post by snow on Aug 11, 2015 11:56:17 GMT -5
Yes, I know you do and I do know that's the definition of the Christian God. But there are so many times God seems very surprised and confused as to why his creation isn't doing what it aught to! How can ALL powerful God and ALL knowing God get confused or surprise? If He/They did they wouldn't be ALL knowing or ALL powerful at all, right?It also raises a lot of moral questions about him. But that's a different subject. As humans we can't NEVER understand/comprehend the mind of God or His reasoning completely. Just Trust in Him and believe He knows what is best in ALL things, As the heaven is higher than the earth so God's way/thought is higher than our way/thought.Well that's the thing isn't it. For an all knowing and all powerful being he just doesn't come across in the bible writings are really all knowing or all powerful. I always wonder why people try to justify God's bad behavior. When God does things that most humans wouldn't even think of doing because they are morally repugnant, the justification is always 'we can't understand God's mind because he is so much above us'. I don't buy that at all. Morally repulsive behavior is morally repulsive behavior no matter who you are. Just because you're a god doesn't let you off the hook imo. Especially if you're also supposed to be all merciful and all loving along with all powerful and all knowing!
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Post by blandie on Aug 11, 2015 12:59:23 GMT -5
Maryhig, I think the easiest way to understand this is by one of the greatest natural gifts God has given us in order to be able to understand it. That is, our own natural family. I think you have a daughter - do you not? If you're daughter makes a mistake, or does something wrong, does she risk losing her place in your family? Because she is not perfect, would you even consider renouncing her as your daughter? So long as she loves you, trust you, respects you and obeys you, I'm sure you could never think of renouncing her. Sending her away. God's love is far greater than our own. Now I'm not saying that she couldn't do things that would cause her to lose her place. But you have to think of if like the above, and you will find even more joy in having a place. It will be more joy and less fear (not fear for God) but just being afraid all the time that you may be losing your place. Sorry about butting in, as I'm sure Review will also have a good take on this. When I learned the above, it just helped me appreciate and enjoy my place in this great family even more. I think thats very appropriate too. God not only is a loving father but he has paid the penalty for all with his own blood - Acts 20:28 - once for all - Heb 10:10 - for the ungodly and not those already sinless - Matt 9:13, Rom 5:8 - and the righteousness and obedience of Christ is credited to our accounts - Rom 5:17-21 - not conditional on our own works - Rom 4:5, Eph 2:9. Like a loving parent this is all provided tho theres also nothing to prevent a child from walking away from what a parent has freely provided - and even to self-destruct. It isn't about following some right church or some right way of ministry or some right way of meeting together - never was - because it isn't a church that saves us. That is a terrible corruption of focus and misdirection away from god's truth.
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Post by maryhig on Aug 11, 2015 13:03:59 GMT -5
I really think we are all saying pretty much the same thing. I think "once saved always saved" is a bad term to use, and from what I read of everyone's post, I don't think they believe that literally. From what I read, I think all of us know it's possible to turn from God and lose our place. Obedience is necessary. I think the way Review explained it above is how most people believe - even Ross - though the two would have a hard time ever saying they agree with each other . I do remember preaching back in the day, when a Worker said something to the affect of "only 1/2 of the people in this tent are going to make it". About a year ago, I was in a meeting with a 17 year old boy that stood up and repeated these words, and with tears in his eyes said he believed he was on the side that wasn't going to make it. It was really sad that he was living with that type of fear and guilt. He was a really really good kid that probably thought he was going to hell because he had ran a red light. Probably hadn't prayed long enough or something. I don't hear that type of preaching going on anymore, and I don't hear it in what Review is saying either. Review, you can correct me if I'm wrong. But I really do think we all agree on this Mary. Like many of the arguments here, many are over terminology, and communication. I agree JD that you don't hear much of that kind of preaching any more. I remember that worker's sermon (one is called and one left behind means 50% are saved) well, and others like it. I think the only one coming close to that in these parts is a certain sister worker who preaches that "you have to be so careful because God can so easily take His Spirit from you if you do the wrong things." That is something I used to hear preached more too, but the reason I noticed when she preached it was because I hadn't heard it for some time. LOL: I don't think you are old enough to have heard Harry Meridian (sp?) preach, but he was forever saying "you can't just believe, you have to do something. It's like a key to your car, you can't just believe the car will start, you have to put the key in." What MaryH says often reminds me of that (and no offense intended, MaryH), and I can hear his screeching voice proclaiming his truth. Memories! And yes, it is hard to communicate our convictions as sometimes others have a different take on what certain words mean. Like you, I don't believe it is an easy thing to lose your salvation. Hi! I don't see it in that way i.e....you can't just believe, you have to do something. I see it as, you can't just believe, you have to truly follow Jesus and give your heart to God! It does say in the bible it's not the hearers but the doers who are blessed. Not only does it say the doers but it also said doers of the work. Showing we have to live it out. James 1 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. As for losing of salvation, that also belongs with God, l leave my heart with him and he will do what's right for me, in this life and the next. Anyway no offence at all, I just hope my voice isn't as screechy
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Post by snow on Aug 11, 2015 13:12:09 GMT -5
Well that's the thing isn't it. For an all knowing and all powerful being he just doesn't come across in the bible writings are really all knowing or all powerful. I always wonder why people try to justify God's bad behavior. When God does things that most humans wouldn't even think of doing because they are morally repugnant, the justification is always 'we can't understand God's mind because he is so much above us'. I don't buy that at all. Morally repulsive behavior is morally repulsive behavior no matter who you are. Just because you're a god doesn't let you off the hook imo. Especially if you're also supposed to be all merciful and all loving along with all powerful and all knowing! The Godhead/Elohim- Father, Christ, and Holy Spirit of the Old and New Testament are the same.... They are all merciful, loving, all powerful and all knowing. People don't know or understand the Old Testament situation in the days of Noah and the GREAT world wide flood, and killings of the demigods giants, and their seeds living around the world, and in the promised land, where the Messiah was to be born into the world.... God of the OT is very merciful in wiping/eliminate these hybrid race to take over the earth, destroying the coming seed of the Savior/Jesus. Satan and the fallen angels tried to prevent the Savior seed/person from entering the world so we couldn't receive Eternal Life. Here is my study some of the history... Why God had to cleanse the earth to start from scratch with a world wide flood in the days of Noah. ONLY Noah's family= 8 souls were saved from the flood and to start repopulation of the homo Sapiens.2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com/thread/98/angel-god-talked-eisenhower-1957?page=1Merciful!! Right. So if we have a disaster today and convention grounds like the ones on another thread in Taiwan get destroyed, that's just God ridding the earth of undesirables and their belongings? Or Katrina is just the wrath of God raining down on New Orleans and area because of all the horrible evil sinners in the area? Do you not see how this thinking is skewed?
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hberry
Senior Member
Posts: 743
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Post by hberry on Aug 11, 2015 13:17:25 GMT -5
snip Hi! I don't see it in that way i.e....you can't just believe, you have to do something. I see it as, you can't just believe, you have to truly follow Jesus and give your heart to God! snip Anyway no offence at all, I just hope my voice isn't as screechy See, that's the trouble with words. He meant exactly what you said--that's the "do" part even we who believe we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ believe in. But I can reassure you, your voice doesn't sound the least bit screechy!
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Post by snow on Aug 11, 2015 13:17:42 GMT -5
Maryhig I have a question. You say many times that you don't know that you are going to heaven and you leave that up to God. Doesn't that cause you some fear that you might not make it? For the life of me I can't see why you wouldn't, but it is something I have wondered. How can anyone be sure of their salvation unless you are part of the 'saved by grace' crowd? It seems like such a gamble because as Ross tells us endlessly there is nothing we can do to please God and we only get in by his grace.
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Post by blandie on Aug 11, 2015 13:22:30 GMT -5
I really think we are all saying pretty much the same thing. I think "once saved always saved" is a bad term to use, and from what I read of everyone's post, I don't think they believe that literally. From what I read, I think all of us know it's possible to turn from God and lose our place. Obedience is necessary. I think the way Review explained it above is how most people believe - even Ross - though the two would have a hard time ever saying they agree with each other . I do remember preaching back in the day, when a Worker said something to the affect of "only 1/2 of the people in this tent are going to make it". About a year ago, I was in a meeting with a 17 year old boy that stood up and repeated these words, and with tears in his eyes said he believed he was on the side that wasn't going to make it. It was really sad that he was living with that type of fear and guilt. He was a really really good kid that probably thought he was going to hell because he had ran a red light. Probably hadn't prayed long enough or something. I don't hear that type of preaching going on anymore, and I don't hear it in what Review is saying either. Review, you can correct me if I'm wrong. But I really do think we all agree on this Mary. Like many of the arguments here, many are over terminology, and communication. I don't know that I can agree that you can be saved from hell and yet go to hell - which I think is what everyones talking about. Either you were saved from hell or you weren't. You couldn't earn it the first time so how is it you have to earn to keep it? Does christs blood not cover sin without qualification? Sure you can refuse to get into the life raft and in that sense it is only that act of rejecting the lifeline that drowns you but no one made it conditional that you only could grab hold and get in if you could dog-paddle for an hour and a half before you were worthy to climb aboard and no one looks at the raft as being salvation if they have to stay in the water and be worthy in hope of climbing aboard someday or when the raft finally makes landfall. Once aboard you might start to smell so foul that no one else can stand to sit next to you but your safe seat christ provided for you is still there. You might grumble and refuse to help row to shore and do all sorts of negative things and those might not get you a medal or lose a share in reward money at the end - 2 Tim 2:20 - but you still get to shore and no ones going to take that salvation away or say you didn't do enough and row you back out into the middle of the ocean to dump you in so that you can drown.
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Post by maryhig on Aug 11, 2015 13:32:16 GMT -5
Maryhig I have a question. You say many times that you don't know that you are going to heaven and you leave that up to God. Doesn't that cause you some fear that you might not make it? For the life of me I can't see why you wouldn't, but it is something I have wondered. How can anyone be sure of their salvation unless you are part of the 'saved by grace' crowd? It seems like such a gamble because as Ross tells us endlessly there is nothing we can do to please God and we only get in by his grace. Honestly and truthfully, no I don't worry. I don't know why I don't, but I just don't! I don't even think about myself going to heaven. I just hope that I'm pleasing God now, and I'm more concerned about getting my heart right here and now and showing all around me the right way. I know this may sound strange to some people, but I'm more worried about everyone else than myself. God will put me, where he feels right, when it's my time to leave this world
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Post by faune on Aug 11, 2015 13:51:14 GMT -5
Here's an interesting fact: leaving - especially the way some exes do it with judgmental exit letters, books, and other publications - is an exclusive act. There is really no way around it. We had a thread about it a while back; professing.proboards.com/thread/18748 I agree that those who have left and continued on in the Christian religion but just in a different version of it, they do tend to be more exclusive. I imagine some of it is a defense mechanism because if you have grown up believing you are in the one true church and that if you leave for a false church you will lose your salvation, there must be some level of angst on their part when they do make that move. I know when I started to question if God even existed, that was a very scary place to be for quite awhile. So it is possible that there is some need to justify the move and for some more than others. For some it may be an unconscious reaction to fear they've made a mistake. Especially at first and especially if they have family that are telling them what a terrible mistake they have made. What you are raised to believe is a pretty major world view to carry with you even when you no longer believe in it. Children raised a certain way never get rid of all the early conditioning completely and that applies to many things, not just religion. There is a lot at stake when you move from a religion that you were told was the only way of getting into heaven. So there is angst at first. If the experience has been particularly unpleasant there is likely a need to write letters etc. I don't know because I never wrote one and really never occurred to me to write one. People all deal with their stress and fears differently. If you have been in the group for a long time and you leave that has to be very traumatic. It was hard enough for me and I did the move, at least mentally, at a very young age. To leave friends and family after many years in a certain lifestyle must be very hard. I know of a couple that can't leave because they have been part of it for more than 70 years and they are just not able to face the possibility that their children and life long friends will not have anything to do with them anymore. So they stay. They lost friends when the Alberta fiasco happened. They were excommunicated and so they were taboo to continue having anything to do with. So they know what happens when you leave because they have nothing to do with those friends anymore. Orders from the workers at that time. So don't be too judgmental of those who write books or exit letters. They are handling their 'trauma' in a way that works for them. I think it can also be guaranteed that the writings are going to be a bit skewed because of high emotions involved. But that does not make their experience any less of the truth because it's how they feel and what they experienced no matter what others might think of it. Snow ~ Thank you for "validating a reality" for most folks who leave the 2x2's and have been exposed to the F&W fellowship for most of their lives. Hopefully, some here will take it to heart, because you just spoke the truth for most of us who have been in that place at one time in our lives. Although most of us have moved on, memories still remain of those years as part of life's journey and we need to make sense of them in our own way.
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Post by Mary on Aug 11, 2015 14:26:07 GMT -5
I commonly heard those in meeting say about those who leave meetings were never professing properly in the first place. I have never in my years in churces ever heard that someone who stops being a Christian was never a Christian in the first place. Not saying it doesn't happen but haven't heard it but heard many times it being said about someone who left meetings. That is the only place I have ever heard it.
I also frequently heard that someone who came to meetings and did not profess just didn't get it. i.e. didn't get the revelation that the workers are the only true way etc. Also those who left also get the same thing, they just didn't get it or another one, they were not willing or they wanted the world and God too, gone bitter, gone religious, gone insane. Heard them all in my time. Somehow Christians also have to be saved too.
I have heard when someone claiming to be a Christian does something bad people say they are not a Christian. The same with Muslims, they say with regard to ISIS; 'they are not Muslim.'
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Post by Mary on Aug 11, 2015 16:43:40 GMT -5
This is where I get lost....really lost!!! I know I'm easily distracted and often don't listen too well (and honestly I ask God to help me in this), but where does the idea that the 2x2 church believe they are the only true believers? Ok so I've heard the only way to the Father is through the Son, we must die daily, take up our cross, deny self, love our neighbour as ourselves and so on......and that these things make up the right way. I also understand that to have fellowship its best with likeminded people, but I've never ever heard that the 2x2 is the only right way, I've never interpreted it to mean that, just simply if we want God to rule our lives these things we must do to make us right and have a personal relationship with our Heavenly Father, if we want that.....why all the fuss? Look at the poll where people voted saying that they were taught that meetings were God's only way. It was something that has been preached continually and is obvious by what many professing posters post on this board.
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Post by blandie on Aug 11, 2015 17:03:40 GMT -5
Why do people get so upset about the truth about activist exes? A narrative as vituperative and opinionated as that obviously doesn't represent the reality of the fellowship for the vast majority of the people in it. Why do you keep dredging up type III apostate narratives like that as if they represent the whole truth of the fellowship? Really? I think they more shaking their head and not believing that you're giving the 'whole truth' about 'activist exes' and maybe are more about a diverting from whatever topic and points are on the table for discussion. If its being discussed or been said somewhere by an ex in a way you don't like then its all made up according to you - the history, the CSA problems, the finances, the deception regarding the organization and the secrecy about the teachings and much else. And it might be obvious but lets also just say that there are also certain of the friends and workers who will twist the language and call the thousands of exes apostates and not miss a chance to demean them and rip things out of context to paint a ridiculous picture that exes are all part of some cabal of conspirators who sit around cooking up bunches of lies about the things they experienced - as if exes suddenly have not the slightest idea of what they saw and experienced and heard and read for decade after decade and sometimes over generations right up to the present. Seems some will do just about anything to keep papering over the holes in the false front of unchanging unity and truth and perfection and self-righteous bliss in the so called only true way. Its a cheap way to dig in the heels and distract and dismiss valid concerns instead of moving even an inch toward addressing anything or moving forward or knowledge or understanding - I see the same character asassination tactic used so often in politics these days to avoid topics and turn attention away from weak points onto something else. Yessir some apostates exaggerate and some devotees exaggerate and that doesn't mean that both can't contribute valuable information to a discussion. Odd how those who use misdirection - like trying to make out that because one person never heard or filtered out or didn't see that something didn't happen or isn't true and like those who attack people who ask questions instead of giving upfront answers and like those who kneejerk support the party line no matter how obvious the lie or how indefensible the crime or how wildly inconsistent and unbiblical the teaching or how - publicly confirm some of the worst things I've ever read the supposed conspirator exes to say about the 2x2-ism denomination and makes the friends look like a bunch of unthinking brainwashed fanatics. All 'activist exes' have to do is quote some posts from here if they want examples. I don't think that derailing conversation and questions by attacking individuals and misdirection and irrelevancies convinces anyone or even yourself and probably tars the very people you are supposedly trying to present clothed in white - and that would go for exes as well as hearty devotees.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 11, 2015 17:07:40 GMT -5
Why do people get so upset about the truth about activist exes? If its being discussed by an ex in a way you don't like then its all made up according to you - the history, the CSA problems, the finances, the deception regarding the organization and the secrecy about the teachings and much else. Another misrepresentation. No, I do not think its "made up" - the fatal flaw with so much is it's presented as a universal truth when it in fact is NOT universally true. Be accurate.
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Post by blandie on Aug 11, 2015 17:09:52 GMT -5
Another misrepresentation. No, I do not think its "made up" - the fatal flaw is it's presented as a universal truth. Be accurate. Its not a flaw. Attacking a person instead of addressing the topic is always counterproductive. Its diversion not discussion.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 11, 2015 17:11:26 GMT -5
Why do people get so upset about the truth about activist exes? A narrative as vituperative and opinionated as that obviously doesn't represent the reality of the fellowship for the vast majority of the people in it. Why do you keep dredging up type III apostate narratives like that as if they represent the whole truth of the fellowship? How many workers do you know of that have burst in the back door by surprise trying to catch the friends doing something wrong?
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 11, 2015 17:12:38 GMT -5
Another misrepresentation. No, I do not think its "made up" - the fatal flaw is it's presented as a universal truth. Be accurate. Its not a flaw. Attacking a person instead of addressing the topic is always counterproductive. Its diversion not discussion. Where did I attack a person instead of the topic?
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Post by blandie on Aug 11, 2015 17:42:16 GMT -5
Where did I attack a person instead of the topic? The crying shame is that you don't perceive your dismissal of just about anything an ex has to say as some 'active exes' 'type III apostate' plot or some distortion that you personally claim never to have heard or seen or experienced. You project that your experience is the same as the vast majority of the friends and that all other experience is aberrant and invalid and tainted. Thats not ever addressing the topic whether its the history or the methods or the teachings or whatever. Special treatment does get leveled at ex-F&Ws - and I know this from too many others to think it is one of those fabled 'activist exes' conspiracies. In some cases it does happen that people who you've laughed and cried with and who have eaten your bread and benefited from your liberality turn the other way when they see you approach on the street or in a store. You want to tell your best friend why you aren't in meetings and he won't talk to you. You are told you don't have salvation and need to start over and profess again. If you aren't interested and are happy somewhere else you have to deal with your professing family and friends and children being told in no uncertain language that you've lost out and are headed through the wide gate that leads to hell and that they need to be real careful because your poison and associating with evil. The experiences of exes isn't always going to match up with the experience of satisfied and unquestioning friends but that doesn't make the experiences of exes any less valid and when its not just one person but more than one then it doesn't automatically mean that you should pipe up to dismiss what they say and what they know and what they heard. I don't read any exes here dismissing the experiences of satisfied friends - and most all were that at one point and many didn't even want to leave.
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