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Post by faune on Aug 11, 2015 0:47:19 GMT -5
Gosh - I would have thought professing folks had the where with all to work it out for themselves. When I was in the 2x2 church I didn't listen to ex-members. What would they know? Ross I'm surprised at the sarcastic manner in which you mock in this post! You have so 'righteously' condemned the use sarcasm in your posts. Is this not classic hypocrisy? Review ~ When you point a finger at another you have "three fingers pointing back at yourself." Have you read your previous postings recently? All I can say in response is "Look who's talking?"
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Post by fred on Aug 11, 2015 0:53:25 GMT -5
Thank you Wally, this is by far the most accurate statement on the matter so far.
If you never got the 'only way' memo you were indeed fortunate and it may have been to do with the workers you were listening to. Without telling others what they believe, I can understand the scepticism about some who say they believe that inclusivity is the teaching.
I all my years in the fellowship here is what I've noticed: The vast majority of folk believe that this is the true way - now put that together with there being only one way and you see what they understand.
Then there is the group who believe that there could be some outside who are saved, but eventually they will be with us as the Lord is seeking to make one fold.
Lastly, there is a small group like Jessse and howitis who believe that there are saved people outside and they continue to be saved to eternal life as they fellowship with another group.
I hope I haven't left anyone off the spectrum - I'm sure you'll speak up.
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Post by fred on Aug 11, 2015 0:56:33 GMT -5
Ross, could you expand on the thinking behind infant baptism? Fred - most of the baptisms at our church are for adults and by full immersion in a swimming pool at one the local homes of the believers. There are still a few infant baptisms though where the parents are Christians. It's very difficult for a parent to come along to our church (who doesn't regularly attend) and request that their infant be baptised. The parent would have to turn to Christ first. It's an evangelical Anglican church - I imagine in non-evangelical Anglican churches that infants are regularly baptised. While I'm not a great fan of infant baptism (for reasons stated below) the Biblical basis is as follows: Acts 2:38-39 ~ "And Peter said to them, 'Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.'" Acts 16:14-15 ~ "One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul. And after she was baptized, and her household as well, she urged us, saying, 'If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.' And she prevailed upon us." Acts 16:29-34 ~ "The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. He then brought them out and asked, 'Sirs, what must I do to be saved?' They replied, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved -- you and your household.' Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized. The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God —- he and his whole family." That is, whole families and households were baptised. Infant baptism is sometimes referred as household baptism and is quite different from an adult believer's baptism. Infant baptism is symbolic by which a claim is placed upon the child's life by God and the church (as opposed to a person making a decision to be baptised as an adult). This claim does not ensure the salvation of the infant (unless you are a Roman Catholic where it does) but is essentially God calling his people to himself, acknowledging that the parents of the infant want the child to grow up in the knowledge of God and ultimately turn to God. Those who support infant baptism, based on the NT Scripture I've mentioned, draw the parallel between circumcision and baptism as both signs and seals of God's covenant of grace. Genesis 17: 9-14 and Romans 4:11 are referenced in this regard. Infant baptism is probably one of the least controversial issues in Christian history. There is no real controversy about it in the early church and Origen, one of the early church fathers, was baptised as an infant, in 180AD, just 80 years after the death of the last Apostle (John). While it is clear in Protestant churches that infants who are baptised are essentially being welcomed into the church and it is a sign or seal or God's grace to the infant, baptism does not save them (Baptism more broadly, whilst something that is to be encouraged, is clearly not essential for salvation). I think where infant baptism can be misused is largely in two ways: 1. The RCC believes that it is a salvific act (as opposed to Protestant churches which do not). 2. Non-believers or nominal Christians want their kids to be baptised for the wrong reasons - ie it is the thing to do whether they believe or not. Given these issues and the fact that it does not save the child I think there are other ways to welcome an infant into the church. However, I've sat through a number of infant baptisms and it's made clear that the act at that time does nothing for the child until they repent and turn to Jesus. I'd say the evangelical churches that have conducted infant baptism are generally moving away from it. Hope this helps. Thanks Ross, appreciate the effort.
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 11, 2015 1:01:00 GMT -5
Hey @review005, I'm still waiting on a response as to why there is no bread and wine at Conventions in America, but there in in Australia ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 11, 2015 1:02:55 GMT -5
Thank you Wally, this is by far the most accurate statement on the matter so far. If you never got the 'only way' memo you were indeed fortunate and it may have been to do with the workers you were listening to. Without telling others what they believe, I can understand the scepticism about some who say they believe that inclusivity is the teaching. I all my years in the fellowship here is what I've noticed: The vast majority of folk believe that this is the true way - now put that together with there being only one way and you see what they understand. Then there is the group who believe that there could be some outside who are saved, but eventually they will be with us as the Lord is seeking to make one fold. Lastly, there is a small group like Jessse and howitis who believe that there are saved people outside and they continue to be saved to eternal life as they fellowship with another group. I hope I haven't left anyone off the spectrum - I'm sure you'll speak up. Thank you fred, you have summed it up well
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Post by howitis on Aug 11, 2015 1:15:03 GMT -5
Thank you Wally, this is by far the most accurate statement on the matter so far. If you never got the 'only way' memo you were indeed fortunate and it may have been to do with the workers you were listening to. Without telling others what they believe, I can understand the scepticism about some who say they believe that inclusivity is the teaching. I all my years in the fellowship here is what I've noticed: The vast majority of folk believe that this is the true way - now put that together with there being only one way and you see what they understand. Then there is the group who believe that there could be some outside who are saved, but eventually they will be with us as the Lord is seeking to make one fold. Lastly, there is a small group like Jessse and howitis who believe that there are saved people outside and they continue to be saved to eternal life as they fellowship with another group. I hope I haven't left anyone off the spectrum - I'm sure you'll speak up. Of course we'll speak up thanks Fred, for me its more like..'....other sheep I have.....them also I must bring....', the sheep are clearly His, that's why I believe as I do.
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 11, 2015 1:27:33 GMT -5
howitis, do you believe those other sheep may never be part of the F&W but will be saved anyway ?
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Post by fred on Aug 11, 2015 1:29:24 GMT -5
Thank you Wally, this is by far the most accurate statement on the matter so far. If you never got the 'only way' memo you were indeed fortunate and it may have been to do with the workers you were listening to. Without telling others what they believe, I can understand the scepticism about some who say they believe that inclusivity is the teaching. I all my years in the fellowship here is what I've noticed: The vast majority of folk believe that this is the true way - now put that together with there being only one way and you see what they understand. Then there is the group who believe that there could be some outside who are saved, but eventually they will be with us as the Lord is seeking to make one fold. Lastly, there is a small group like Jessse and howitis who believe that there are saved people outside and they continue to be saved to eternal life as they fellowship with another group. I hope I haven't left anyone off the spectrum - I'm sure you'll speak up. Of course we'll speak up thanks Fred, for me its more like..'....other sheep I have.....them also I must bring....', the sheep are clearly His, that's why I believe as I do. Oh,I see. Are you trying to sneak into the middle group by the back door?
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Post by maryhig on Aug 11, 2015 1:29:29 GMT -5
I thought this was great! He's right about the religions. Do you think Jesus looked like the pope or a bishop? No he was a lowly humble man. And Judas had to kiss him to point him out. There was no Jesus died to save you and all your your sins are forgiven in every other sentence and no Jesus is God the son. He rightly pointed out that we have to lay down our own lives and take up our cross and follow Jesus, just as Jesus teaches us in the bible. I believe what he says about religions is right. They take the uppermost seats and enjoy the praise of men. Just look at the pope, you can see how far from Jesus he is in his life! And also bishops who sit in on the house of lords and take the uppermost seats in the queens celebrations here in Britain! That's not what Jesus taught. He taught his apostles and deciples to go out among the people and preach the gospel. I don't believe that this man was saying all people from other churches are going to hell. But that the teachings are wrong. And if you look at the leaders of the churches today and Jesus, you can see that he's right! Jesus didn't take the high seats of this world for the praise of men. He took the low seat for the praise of God, and we must follow him. Not building up in this world on the foundations of men. But building up on the foundations of Christ and the prophets, becoming lowly and rejecting the ways of the world and flesh! I believe many religions have gone wrong. And moved away from the basic humble teachings of Jesus. But I don't believe that all the people of those religions are not going to heaven. Only God can decide that. Because only God knows the heart of all men and women! And none of us can say who's going where, because we're not God!
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Post by howitis on Aug 11, 2015 1:47:08 GMT -5
No Fred its not like that I worship with the 2x2 church, but I'm not going to say that others who obey the teaching of Christ are doomed to a lost eternity just because they fellowship differently I believe that's where God wants them and He will lead them and us to make one flock....in His time, not ours.
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Post by maryhig on Aug 11, 2015 1:57:31 GMT -5
No Fred its not like that I worship with the 2x2 church, but I'm not going to say that others who obey the teaching of Christ are doomed to a lost eternity just because they fellowship differently I believe that's where God wants them and He will lead them and us to make one flock....in His time, not ours. Yes I believe this also, we don't know what God has in his plans. And we don't know who's heart God has a hold of.
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Post by fred on Aug 11, 2015 1:57:48 GMT -5
No Fred its not like that I worship with the 2x2 church, but I'm not going to say that others who obey the teaching of Christ are doomed to a lost eternity just because they fellowship differently I believe that's where God wants them and He will lead them and us to make one flock....in His time, not ours. Thanks howitis. How do you envisage this 'one flock'? Is it possible there is 'one flock' on earth today? Thanks for your patience.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2015 3:04:52 GMT -5
Hey @review005, I'm still waiting on a response as to why there is no bread and wine at Conventions in America, but there in in Australia ? none in kiwi land either Aust always behind times
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 11, 2015 3:16:18 GMT -5
Hey @review005, I'm still waiting on a response as to why there is no bread and wine at Conventions in America, but there in in Australia ? none in kiwi land either Aust always behind times Don't you have the Bread & Wine at Convention @virgo ?
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Post by howitis on Aug 11, 2015 3:26:36 GMT -5
Ross does that mean that you're from the 'once saved always saved' analogy? So long as you commit your life to Christ, doesn't matter if you slip up now and again and become an axe murderer, just so long as its not all the time! I think its mentioned a few times of striving.....and that word terrible.....has it altered in meaning slightly? Mmmmmm.....not sure, but I prefer to be careful and prayerful.
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 11, 2015 3:50:27 GMT -5
Wow, I wonder who started it then ? Maybe John Hardie ? Also why the difference ?
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Post by maryhig on Aug 11, 2015 5:03:55 GMT -5
Ross does that mean that you're from the 'once saved always saved' analogy? So long as you commit your life to Christ, doesn't matter if you slip up now and again and become an axe murderer, just so long as its not all the time! I think its mentioned a few times of striving.....and that word terrible.....has it altered in meaning slightly? Mmmmmm.....not sure, but I prefer to be careful and prayerful. I heard it a lot in the 2x2 church as a sign of false churches....but I've never heard it preached since changing churches. I do know that once God saves us, he will continue to save us as long as we continue to trust Him and don't reject or turn our back on Him. That's clear from the Bible. I also know that the Children of Israel didn't enter the promised land because of their righteousness (Deut 9) and neither will we. I can't earn God's favour by my performance so I don't get caught up in that kind of human thinking. I do know that in response to God saving me by His grace that he wants me to love Him, trust Him and obey Him today and for the future. I try to do that as best I can, albeit very imperfectly. Yes that's true, but why was God angry and why did he call them unrighteous? Because when he brought them out of Egypt they looked back. And wanted the Egyptian way again and made a God of Gold in making the golden calf. And they turned from God. And so can we, we can love the world that he's brought us out of more than him. And instead of putting it behind us, were can still be involved and mixed up in it all, longing for the pleasures of this life. God wants his people to turn away from all that. To give their hearts to him and he will be our God and we will be his people. And Jesus came and showed us the way. He lived it. And when we follow him, he sends us the spirit of truth who will show us all things and comforts our hearts. And Christ keeps us alive in God, making us a guide for others. As long as we remain faithful and love God with all our hearts.
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Post by maryhig on Aug 11, 2015 8:15:26 GMT -5
I heard it a lot in the 2x2 church as a sign of false churches....but I've never heard it preached since changing churches. Does your minister think the Roman Catholic church is a true church? Mormons? SDA?
I do know that once God saves us, he will continue to save us as long as we continue to trust Him and don't reject or turn our back on Him. That's clear from the Bible. So you acknowledge we can lose our salvation if don't continue to trust him? If we reject him or turn our back on him? Do you acknowledge that is clear from the Bible?
I also know that the Children of Israel didn't enter the promised land because of their righteousness (Deut 9) and neither will we. correct as our hymn say "Increase our faith when night at hand, death would return our souls to thee. Grant us the faith that understands our only hope is Calvary"I can't earn God's favour by my performance so I don't get caught up in that kind of human thinking. CorrectI do know that in response to God saving me by His grace that he wants me to love Him, trust Him and obey Him today and for the future. correctHi review, so do you believe that you have to endure to the end to be saved? And what are your beliefs on Christ having already saved us? I'm just trying to understand different peoples beliefs. I know Ross and others believe that they are already saved, but I don't believe this, I believe that Christ in our hearts is saving us from Satan daily and by him we are saved. But we have to endure to the end to get to heaven. I hope you don't mind me asking, but I'm asking you because your a teacher of your people and you can explain it to me. That's if you don't mind? I'm just a bit confused by all the different beliefs. But you don't seem to believe quite the same as Ross does in this. I think not anyway? Again, I'm not getting at anyone, I'm just trying to understand Thank you
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Post by snow on Aug 11, 2015 9:15:54 GMT -5
But I think what really bothers exs is when those who are still professing deny the exclusivity of the group. It seems to me that it should be quite clear by now that this is a belief and it does happen and it does have harmful consequences when it does. If it doesn't happen at your house or in your family, great! I applaud you. But negating the experience and denying that it is a belief within the system does not do much for the credibility of those who deny it. Especially when we know it does happen and it happened to us. The same holds true in the opposite sense. Elizabeth acted like howitis was brain dead or blind to not know the absolute truth that "they consider themselves the only true believers." And went further by saying if she didn't believe it now she would in the future. After all we are in a cult and all brainwashed with cult think, Elizabeth wrote a book about that. Obviously some don't fit in Elizabeth's absolute truth statement "they consider themselves the only true believers." So as you said, negating that experience and denying that it is a belief within the system does not do much for the credibility of those who deny it. Obviously some don't fit into that bunch. That's why absolute statements about groups of people generally are not accurate. Each person within that group are individuals (obviously) and are free to hold whatever belief they wish. But some do. Since I no longer have much contact with the group other than a few of the friends I've known since I left and on here, I don't have any idea what percentage of the group still feel this way. My experience happened 47 years ago when I was 12. (yes I'm old lol..) So I have to believe people when they say they don't feel that way and that they don't hear it preached anymore. But I have to question why exes are still experiencing family telling them they are lost out when they leave if it doesn't still occur in some instances? Just because some exes generalize the group doesn't mean that professing folk should generalize the exes. Two wrongs don't make a right. It seems like you are saying; because Elizabeth has generalized the beliefs of all those professing, we can also generalize the experiences of all the exes. Both are not accurate imo and tend to cause a bigger divide as we see on here daily. Calling exes bitter because they are still in reaction mode to what they have been put through, or denying that it happens, just serves to widen the gap. Calling their old church a 'particularly dangerous cult' also serves to widen the gap. Neither are helpful. But what I see is frustration on both sides because they feel the other side is generalizing and not listening or even denying personal beliefs and experiences happen. If you are happy in your group and have not experienced shunning, it's pretty hard to understand I imagine, but not acknowledging that it happens just makes it worse.
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Post by snow on Aug 11, 2015 9:17:03 GMT -5
Perhaps then was it meant to mean if I'm not brain dead now I should get out whilst I can salvage what's left! No, if you are happy, that is where you should be.
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Post by rational on Aug 11, 2015 9:31:24 GMT -5
But I think what really bothers exs is when those who are still professing deny the exclusivity of the group. Why? It is their belief. I am quite sure you do not share their belief. This is true about many things. Why would anyone care of members of another group claimed to be exclusive or not. Why would anyone care if two gay women/men get married? Or what they do in the privacy of their home.
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Post by jondough on Aug 11, 2015 9:33:29 GMT -5
Maryhig,
I think the easiest way to understand this is by one of the greatest natural gifts God has given us in order to be able to understand it. That is, our own natural family. I think you have a daughter - do you not? If you're daughter makes a mistake, or does something wrong, does she risk losing her place in your family? Because she is not perfect, would you even consider renouncing her as your daughter? So long as she loves you, trust you, respects you and obeys you, I'm sure you could never think of renouncing her. Sending her away.
God's love is far greater than our own.
Now I'm not saying that she couldn't do things that would cause her to lose her place. But you have to think of if like the above, and you will find even more joy in having a place. It will be more joy and less fear (not fear for God) but just being afraid all the time that you may be losing your place.
Sorry about butting in, as I'm sure Review will also have a good take on this. When I learned the above, it just helped me appreciate and enjoy my place in this great family even more.
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Post by rational on Aug 11, 2015 9:37:10 GMT -5
Perhaps our science people can help us....you know how we have receptors in our bodies for certain things like pain, maybe that's what happens when we listen to Gods word, we hear and decipher to our iwn way of thinking. I have never seen any data that would indicate that there are "God's Word" receptors. By there has been a lot of research on the way people can look at events and in their mind make the perceived events conform to their way of thinking. It is like that Shakespeare phrase - " Nothing is good or bad but thinking makes it so."
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Post by snow on Aug 11, 2015 9:37:46 GMT -5
Nathan, I'm a skeptic. If a war happened in heaven once, it can happen again. Same God, right? What's to say someone isn't going to get all upset like Satan and one third of all the angels in heaven did and the fight is on, again. What I can't figure out is why an all knowing God didn't see it coming!! So many questions. Something doesn't add up about heaven imo. He is the God of all-knowing... God/Elohim KNEW what Satan had in his heart when he was in heaven... It was Satan's free will and God allowed it to happen... Satan and the fallen angels evil deeds can ONLY HELP and serve/fulfill God's purpose/plan. God is ONE kingdom above Satan. Just like the humans is ONE kingdom higher than the animals kingdom.Actually no where that I am aware of does it say God knew Satan and one third of his angels were going to rebel. That is an assumption on your part because you believe your God knows everything. But there is a lot in the bible that doesn't actually support that premise. God seems to be taken by surprise a lot and then he get's upset and rains down his wrath when things don't go his way.
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Post by snow on Aug 11, 2015 9:41:11 GMT -5
But I think what really bothers exs is when those who are still professing deny the exclusivity of the group. Why? It is their belief. I am quite sure you do not share their belief. This is true about many things. Why would anyone care of members of another group claimed to be exclusive or not. Why would anyone care if two gay women/men get married? Or what they do in the privacy of their home. I agree, but I am only stating what I see on here in the dialogue between the exes and the professing. Do you see exes happy on here when their experience of exclusivity has been denied? I see them getting upset. Personally I couldn't care less. I'm an atheist so all religions are exclusive in my world. And yes, it's okay with me. Doesn't change anything for me or what I believe.
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Post by rational on Aug 11, 2015 9:41:32 GMT -5
He is the God of all-knowing... God/Elohim KNEW what Satan had in his heart when he was in heaven... It was Satan's free will and God allowed it to happen... Satan and the fallen angels evil deeds can ONLY HELP and serve/fulfill God's purpose/plan. God is ONE kingdom above Satan. Just like the humans is ONE kingdom higher than the animals kingdom. Actually no where that I am aware of does it say God knew Satan and one third of his angels were going to rebel. That is an assumption on your part because you believe your God knows everything. But there is a lot in the bible that doesn't actually support that premise. God seems to be taken by surprise a lot and then he get's upset and rains down his wrath when things don't go his way. And from time to time s/he changes her/his mind. That should never happen.
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Aug 11, 2015 9:42:31 GMT -5
It wasn't theirs to judge - just like what is being judged here by people acting like they know better what we think than we do ourselves. I have been wondering if this is a new "party line". I have heard it from several professing sources recently. On the surface, it comes across as "kinder and gentler", but it can easily coexist with a privately held exclusive belief that the 2x2's are the "only way". It also doesn't erase the harshness of the message of 2x2 exclusivity that I and others grew up hearing from leaders among the workers and friends, and I am not yet convinced that this old message is not still intact at some level and in some places. I would need to hear a positive statement of non-exclusivity from a leader of the group. Something more specific than "It is not ours to judge". Matisse, that does seem to be the new party line. Some years ago that answer started popping up among the friends I know (and maybe it was always there and I just didn't hear it), and from the way the folks I know used it, it simply means the message is being hidden in the open. If you weren't judging, when someone asked if those "outside" were saved, you would simply answer "why not?" However, inside the group, among those I know (I can only speak for my circle of acquaintances and not fellowship-wide), they don't use the "we don't judge," they revert to "I'm so sorry so-and-so lost out" if you leave and call other churches "false." The workers just don't preach it as clearly as they used to--at least that is my observation after 6 decades of experience in the fellowship. Personally, it doesn't bother me; it is what it is. Other people's opinion of me doesn't change my relationship with God; although sadly, it does change your relationship with most of your F&W friends, and for some people, their families. And hence, "the fuss."
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Aug 11, 2015 9:48:41 GMT -5
Mostly agree Roselyn, by the same token most F&W agree that the message they received was there is only one way and that is accepting Jesus into our lives, not you must go to convention and Sunday morning meeting, however yes I see that it would seem most exes have been told the 'church' is the one way. I am not trying to negate your experience nor tell you what to do however I've just been told my guile is staggering and to leave my fellowship............really its a bit hard to fathom. I've heard lots of times going to meetings conventions will not "save" us. Heard it again in the meeting I was a visitor at at yesterday. That seems to be something that is pretty universally understood. Yes, I heard that all my life: you might not be saved "in the meetings" but the other side of that message was that you can't be saved outside the meetings. That, at least in my circle of fellowship friends, was clearly understood. However, based on my experience, the last half of that message isn't preached as clearly as it was while I was growing up. (And as Fred said on another post, maybe not at all by some workers.)
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