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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 11, 2015 18:03:57 GMT -5
Where did I attack a person instead of the topic? The crying shame is that you don't perceive your dismissal of just about anything an ex has to say as some 'active exes' 'type III apostate' plot or some distortion that you personally claim never to have heard or seen or experienced. You project that your experience is the same as the vast majority of the friends and that all other experience is aberrant and invalid and tainted. Thats not ever addressing the topic whether its the history or the methods or the teachings or whatever. Special treatment does get leveled at ex-F&Ws - and I know this from too many others to think it is one of those fabled 'activist exes' conspiracies. In some cases it does happen that people who you've laughed and cried with and who have eaten your bread and benefited from your liberality turn the other way when they see you approach on the street or in a store. You want to tell your best friend why you aren't in meetings and he won't talk to you. You are told you don't have salvation and need to start over and profess again. If you aren't interested and are happy somewhere else you have to deal with your professing family and friends and children being told in no uncertain language that you've lost out and are headed through the wide gate that leads to hell and that they need to be real careful because your poison and associating with evil. The experiences of exes isn't always going to match up with the experience of satisfied and unquestioning friends but that doesn't make the experiences of exes any less valid and when its not just one person but more than one then it doesn't automatically mean that you should pipe up to dismiss what they say and what they know and what they heard. I don't read any exes here dismissing the experiences of satisfied friends - and most all were that at one point and many didn't even want to leave. You said I attacked a person instead of the topic, even said it was divisionary, where did I do that? Post quotes.
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Post by fred on Aug 11, 2015 18:05:18 GMT -5
Jesse, I'm interested in your philosophy concerning these matters, the way you are able to compartmentalise.
You wrote that you have erased any thought of judgement concerning outsiders - I'm wondering if you approach 'outsiders' considering them to be as saved as you are?
As far as separating the temporal from the spiritual, I believe they are intertwined and impact on each other - a poor spirit will lead to poor behaviour, and poor behaviour impacts on spiritual relationships. In your example of the radio antenna I would imagine that if it happened to you there would be a barrier between you and the person responsible.(or maybe you're a better man than I am.)
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Post by snow on Aug 11, 2015 18:30:59 GMT -5
Maryhig I have a question. You say many times that you don't know that you are going to heaven and you leave that up to God. Doesn't that cause you some fear that you might not make it? For the life of me I can't see why you wouldn't, but it is something I have wondered. How can anyone be sure of their salvation unless you are part of the 'saved by grace' crowd? It seems like such a gamble because as Ross tells us endlessly there is nothing we can do to please God and we only get in by his grace. Honestly and truthfully, no I don't worry. I don't know why I don't, but I just don't! I don't even think about myself going to heaven. I just hope that I'm pleasing God now, and I'm more concerned about getting my heart right here and now and showing all around me the right way. I know this may sound strange to some people, but I'm more worried about everyone else than myself. God will put me, where he feels right, when it's my time to leave this world Thanks for the answer. Glad you don't worry about yourself. Worrying about others I suppose isn't very peaceful though. It is something I have often wondered about with those who believe that they have to be 'good enough' or they will go to hell. Not a very peaceful way to live if you have that worry in the back of your mind.
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Post by matisse on Aug 11, 2015 18:34:04 GMT -5
Here's an interesting fact: leaving - especially the way some exes do it with judgmental exit letters, books, and other publications - is an exclusive act. There is really no way around it. We had a thread about it a while back; professing.proboards.com/thread/18748 Declaring that leaving is necessarily an exclusive act makes about as much sense as declaring that a non-exclusive person must attend every religious service in every denomination that is ever scheduled. It seems like you are painting with that broad brush that you have said you so dislike. This may come as a surprise to you, but some of those "judgemental" books and other publications created by ex's that you refer to, helped make it possible for me to reconnect socially and feel at ease again with the F&W that I grew up knowing.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 11, 2015 20:56:43 GMT -5
Jesse, I'm interested in your philosophy concerning these matters, the way you are able to compartmentalise. You wrote that you have erased any thought of judgement concerning outsiders - I'm wondering if you approach 'outsiders' considering them to be as saved as you are? Specifically I've erased thoughts of "are they saved" about all I interact with. It's not in my thought process. So yes that is everyone, "outsiders", atheists, TMB participants. The antenna example is a parody of what spiritual unity is NOT about. I don't think spiritual unity is being united about things, like not having a TV, or taking emblems at some conventions and not others. Spiritual unity is John 17, being united by the Spirit even though there are temporal differences.
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Post by jondough on Aug 11, 2015 21:15:06 GMT -5
JD - nice way of putting it. For some reason some 2x2's are fixated on the once saved, always saved idea. I disagree. Most of our fellowship refuse to be influenced by this false teaching, if you want to describe rejecting false teaching as a fixation, then so be it! I've always thought of this concept from Gods viewpoint - he has saved us when we repented and turned to Him and He will save us eternally ie he will keep His promise to us and never let us down. God will never let us down, you are correct. There are clear examples in Scripture of people who inspite of God's love and promise towards them took themselves out of God hand, promises, love and control.
They were saved and then because of their rebellion lost their salvation. How many dozen Biblical examples would you like?
The 2x2's seem to look at the concept from a human viewpoint - ie I've been saved so I always will be irrespective if whether I turn my back on God ! Everyone knows that is rubbish and is not a concept preached by churches (it may be by RCC I don't know) so not sure why some keep raising it. I can't understand what you are saying you are saying 2x2s feel OSAS!!!!!
You two agree on this believe it or not..... You're saying the same thing. Review,I think Ross wasn't accusing us of believing "once saved always saved", he was stating that this is what we call their belief, and doesn't understand why. Again, I could be wrong.
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Post by blandie on Aug 11, 2015 21:26:48 GMT -5
You said I attacked a person instead of the topic, even said it was divisionary, where did I do that? Post quotes. Like I said the shame is that you can't see it. A narrative as vituperative and opinionated as that obviously doesn't represent the reality of the fellowship for the vast majority of the people in it. Why do you keep dredging up type III apostate narratives like that as if they represent the whole truth of the fellowship? <snip> Pathetic. Foolish and perfidious generalizations like that don't help too much with the author's credibility. <snip> I like how Irvine Grey got told by the moderator he was abusing the site. <snip> Think about all the participatory fellowship meetings that take place without workers present to keep the participants whipped into automatonic conformation - could the unity be the work of the Spirit? Of course! We are united by the Spirit in those meetings. How many workers do you know of that have burst in the back door by surprise trying to catch the friends doing something wrong? Seems to me you just dropped a thin-veiled hint that an ex is a liar and others as 'vituperative' and 'pathetic' and 'foolish' and 'perfidious' and their concerns 'petty' just in the response to Faune and your followup referencing that and its pure character assassination. I google 'Type III apostate narrative' and get only links back to a bunch of your posts here and without the quotes gives only a few more. It took some work but seems you're talking around something a Dr. Bromley wrote that describes a certain type of former cult member who goes on to be a 'professional enemy' with an unverified unwilling imprisonment 'capture and escape' story. Where do you get off slapping that label onto any of the exes or their posts? Who are these professionals and who are the members of this 'oppositional coalition' that 'type iii' pros form? Thats pure fantasy without facts on your part. Not only that but I find it ludicrous that a scholar in any field would encourage dismissing evidence from one vocal side and the Bromley guy doesn't seem to be saying that those stories should just be tossed into the bin at all but is just explaining that those studying should use some discernment about motives just as they would to avoid swallowing whole stories from fanatics who actively promote their groups. Why even bring this up here again and again to slam the accounts of former friends and workers and anyone else who doesn't share your rosy-tinted view of the fellowship? Some of the exes here have had lies spread about them and their reasons for leaving and it seems that some can't resist piling on to put in a few more unwarranted kicks. Yea-yea - never heard it - never seen it - never happened to me - she's just a bitter ex - so its all made up lies. Like I said the shame is that you don't see how you come across or how it makes the fellowship look even worse. Oh yea that unity of that sorts you'll find in any group where people adjust their step when in a peer group and last I checked worker appointed elders are there at every meeting and any concerns get forwarded up the chain so its not exactly unmonitored and the form isn't exactly an autonomous free for all where decisions are taken and change happens.
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Post by rational on Aug 11, 2015 21:31:16 GMT -5
This is where I get lost....really lost!!! I know I'm easily distracted and often don't listen too well (and honestly I ask God to help me in this), but where does the idea that the 2x2 church believe they are the only true believers? They inherited it from the religion to which they belong?
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Post by jondough on Aug 11, 2015 21:57:43 GMT -5
You two agree on this believe it or not..... You're saying the same thing. Review,I think Ross wasn't accusing us of believing "once saved always saved", he was stating that this is what we call their belief, and doesn't understand why. Again, I could be wrong. Ross says "The 2x2's seem to look at the concept from a human viewpoint - ie I've been saved so I always will be irrespective if whether I turn my back on God ! Everyone knows that is rubbish"
I agree that .. "I've been saved so I always will be irrespective if whether I turn my back on God !"is rubbish....but I don't know anyone in our fellowship who believes that! Do sydney anglican evangelists? I'd hardly think so? Maybe it was me who understood him wrong. I think Ross is pretty clear that we don't believe the "once saved always saved" concept. I'll let Ross explain what he meant.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 11, 2015 22:12:11 GMT -5
You said I attacked a person instead of the topic, even said it was divisionary, where did I do that? Post quotes. Like I said the shame is that you can't see it. A narrative as vituperative and opinionated as that obviously doesn't represent the reality of the fellowship for the vast majority of the people in it. Why do you keep dredging up type III apostate narratives like that as if they represent the whole truth of the fellowship? <snip> Pathetic. Foolish and perfidious generalizations like that don't help too much with the author's credibility. <snip> I like how Irvine Grey got told by the moderator he was abusing the site. <snip> Think about all the participatory fellowship meetings that take place without workers present to keep the participants whipped into automatonic conformation - could the unity be the work of the Spirit? Of course! We are united by the Spirit in those meetings. How many workers do you know of that have burst in the back door by surprise trying to catch the friends doing something wrong? Seems to me you just dropped a thin-veiled hint that an ex is a liar and others as 'vituperative' and 'pathetic' and 'foolish' and 'perfidious' and their concerns 'petty' just in the response to Faune and your followup referencing that and its pure character assassination. You are wrong. A "generalization" or "narrative" is a topic, it's content, NOT a person. I asked you specifically how many workers you knew of that burst in back doors trying to catch friends doing something wrong. That is an example of a narrative, a generalization that obviously will call the credibility of its author into question. A lot of active exe narrative is that way. The narrative becomes its own worst enemy. It's got nothing to do with me. So you still haven't provided posts of me attacking a person.
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Post by whyisitso on Aug 11, 2015 22:36:26 GMT -5
You two agree on this believe it or not..... You're saying the same thing. Review,I think Ross wasn't accusing us of believing "once saved always saved", he was stating that this is what we call their belief, and doesn't understand why. Again, I could be wrong. Ross says "The 2x2's seem to look at the concept from a human viewpoint - ie I've been saved so I always will be irrespective if whether I turn my back on God ! Everyone knows that is rubbish"
I agree that .. "I've been saved so I always will be irrespective if whether I turn my back on God !"is rubbish....but I don't know anyone in our fellowship who believes that! Do sydney anglican evangelists? I'd hardly think so? I think you need to have another read of it review… after your morning coffee maybe
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 11, 2015 23:03:05 GMT -5
I don't think Ross will come and state simply and clearly that a person can lose their salvation. But I will be delighted if he will! I have zero desire to disagree with him on matters. But I can not and will not agree to the non Biblical doctrine he has been posting in the last weeks. I'll be very happy if we are agreed that a person can be saved and then lose that because of persistent ungodly actions, rebellion, unbelief etc that they will not desist from. There remaineth no more sacrifice for such sin while the person remains in that rebellious unrepentant state.
If they die in that condition..... ? Well maybe @review005 you could tell us why Australia is the only place there is Bread & Wine at Convention ? Is that Biblical or non Biblical doctrine ?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2015 23:12:50 GMT -5
none in kiwi land either Aust always behind times Don't you have the Bread & Wine at Convention @virgo ? did you not see what i wrote?
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 11, 2015 23:17:52 GMT -5
Ros, 'Once Biblical always Biblical' is the way to go, or have you got mixed up in that false ' once saved away saved' stuff as well? Is it an exes from Aussies weakness? You didn't answer the question @review005, so here it is again ! Why is Australia the only place that has the bread & wine at Convention ?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2015 23:21:27 GMT -5
Ros, 'Once Biblical always Biblical' is the way to go, or have you got mixed up in that false ' once saved away saved' stuff as well? Is it an exes from Aussies weakness? You didn't answer the question @review005, so here it is again ! Why is Australia the only place that has the bread & wine at Convention ? coz it is hot there and they get thirsty and it's always nice to nibble when having wine
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Post by whyisitso on Aug 11, 2015 23:30:41 GMT -5
I don't think Ross will come and state simply and clearly that a person can lose their salvation. But I will be delighted if he will! I have zero desire to disagree with him on matters. But I can not and will not agree to the non Biblical doctrine he has been posting in the last weeks. I'll be very happy if we are agreed that a person can be saved and then lose that because of persistent ungodly actions, rebellion, unbelief etc that they will not desist from. There remaineth no more sacrifice for such sin while the person remains in that rebellious unrepentant state.
If they die in that condition..... ? Ross Said in an earlier post: The 2x2's seem to look at the concept from a human viewpoint - i.e. (Exes/outsiders/those who go to Christian churches seem to think that) I've been saved so I always will be irrespective if whether I turn my back on God ! Everyone knows that is rubbish and is not a concept preached by churches (it may be by RCC I don't know) so not sure why some keep raising it.He's saying the friends say this is what outsiders think….. this is not what he actually thinks…. I can't figure out if you're not quite understanding this or being a smarty pants and twisting the words into what you want to make it sound like Ross has said something else… In any case, what you've written that you said Ross said isn't right. Ross has never said 'once saved always saved' … At least, i've never seen him write that and i don't get the impression that's what he thinks.
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 11, 2015 23:31:50 GMT -5
You didn't answer the question @review005, so here it is again ! Why is Australia the only place that has the bread & wine at Convention ? coz it is hot there and they get thirsty and it's always nice to nibble when having wine Wow @virgo, is that what the bread & wine mean to you ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 11, 2015 23:35:41 GMT -5
An Aussie asking a Kiwi "Why is Australia the only place that has the bread & wine at Convention ?"Sadly I think that reveals where you are at! I nominate it for the dumbest post of the week! I'll give you a little hint!!! If you don't know yourself then ask someone who lives in Australia! Isn't simple yet profound? There will be no charge for the help along the way that I have given you so you can get the answer to this question that is very very very very important to you. Do it now!!! Get some sleep after all these sleepless night you have had worrying about it! Is that the best you can come up with @review005 ! Great way to avoid answering by the way ! So seeing as its the dumbest post of the week can someone else answer the question, seeing as our resident worker either can't or won't ? But he sure is quick to have an opinion about other things that happen in Oz especially when it has to do with the "Unchanging Way" !
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 11, 2015 23:47:25 GMT -5
Ros tell us plainly and clearly and honestly your motive and reason for asking the question please You have had so much to say about the NT Apostolic Church and how the F&W are following this, you don't mind having a dig at @ross about the Anglican Church and how wrong they are. Its suppose to be the unchanging way, the spirit is suppose to be the same the world over, so why the difference with something as important as the bread & wine?
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Post by whyisitso on Aug 11, 2015 23:53:07 GMT -5
An Aussie asking a Kiwi "Why is Australia the only place that has the bread & wine at Convention ?"Sadly I think that reveals where you are at! I nominate it for the dumbest post of the week! I'll give you a little hint!!! If you don't know yourself then ask someone who lives in Australia! Isn't simple yet profound? There will be no charge for the help along the way that I have given you so you can get the answer to this question that is very very very very important to you. Do it now!!! Get some sleep after all these sleepless night you have had worrying about it! p.s. Give a call to Ross and encourage him to step up and be a man State simply and clearly that a person can lose their salvation. ...if that is what he believes or
State simply and clearly that a person cannot lose their salvation ...if that is what he believesHow's that bone you're chewing on? Getting a bit stale?
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 11, 2015 23:55:31 GMT -5
Tell us about the Apostles in your NT like church, the church you say we read of in the Bible. Mary I note you are unable to answer this question. The response post you made made no mention of apostles whatever. I didn't expect it to because you can't!
You know your church has nothing about an apostle about it! Look Mary you are happy with your minister and churches. I am glad for you! Please enjoy them to the full. It is your soul and your life and you are wise to find churches that you like and are happy with. But please don't fool yourself thinking you have ' the church we read of in the Bible' as you falsely claim Amazing you keep up your campaign of negativity... You deride, criticize and mock workers and friends then when I ask you to show you the better thing you have... you make a false statement, claiming you have something that you certainly don't have.
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 12, 2015 0:00:23 GMT -5
How's that bone you're chewing on? Getting a bit stale? Thanks - everyone knows what I'm saying and believe except one person. Last time I checked I was a man. Ros can't get her question answered and I seem to get all the love - it must a male/female thing? Well apparently my question is the "dumbest post of the week" ! So who in Oz got the memo with the answer ?
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Post by jondough on Aug 12, 2015 0:01:49 GMT -5
I personally don't see anything wrong with breaking bread and remembering Christ at convention. We don't do it here, and I see nothing wrong with that either. Its pretty impractical for that many people. I wonder how many people are at an Aussi convention. We would probably have around 400 - 500 people on a Sunday morning.
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 12, 2015 0:03:31 GMT -5
I personally don't see anything wrong with breaking bread and remembering Christ at convention. We don't do it here, and I see nothing wrong with that either. Its pretty impractical for that many people. I wonder how many people are at an Aussi convention. We would probably have around 400 - 500 people on a Sunday morning. Similar amount here.
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Post by jondough on Aug 12, 2015 0:09:52 GMT -5
I personally don't see anything wrong with breaking bread and remembering Christ at convention. We don't do it here, and I see nothing wrong with that either. Its pretty impractical for that many people. I wonder how many people are at an Aussi convention. We would probably have around 400 - 500 people on a Sunday morning. Similar amount here. I kind of wish we did it here. It would be a very special experience to break bread like that on Sunday morning at convention. We get pretty stuck on our traditions for sure. Not sure how the tradition became different there, but thats ok. Its nice here that just about every Sunday morning convention meeting, the Elder Worker, and usually the others as well speak about Christ, and his life and sacrifice for us. Its definitely a very special meeting because of this.
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Post by jondough on Aug 12, 2015 0:16:14 GMT -5
Well apparently my question is the "dumbest post of the week" ! So who in Oz got the memo with the answer ? Ros, don't worry about Review005 getting personal When you get reproved, reprimanded, rebuked (any other r words?) by Review005 you should wear it as a badge of honour. Seriously, I think it was a John Hardie thing and many international workers have tried to change it over the years. One senior US worker was aghast that the emblems were taken outside a sanctified home....but the message from the Aussies was that it was their home away from home that Sunday. As JD said, it's good that they do it differently in different places. The meeting has to start 15 minutes early Sunday morning to fit it in so it works. Makes me want to go to an Aussie convention just to experience it
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 12, 2015 0:17:08 GMT -5
Well apparently my question is the "dumbest post of the week" ! So who in Oz got the memo with the answer ? Ros, don't worry about Review005 getting personal When you get reproved, reprimanded, rebuked (any other r words?) by Review005 you should wear it as a badge of honour. Seriously, I think it was a John Hardie thing and many international workers have tried to change it over the years. One senior US worker was aghast that the emblems were taken outside a sanctified home....but the message from the Aussies was that it was their home away from home that Sunday. As JD said, it's good that they do it differently in different places. The meeting has to start 15 minutes early Sunday morning to fit it in so it works. Thank you Ross, I wondered if it was a JH thing. Yes Sunday morning was always 15 minutes early !
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Post by jondough on Aug 12, 2015 0:20:38 GMT -5
I kind of wish we did it here. It would be a very special experience to break bread like that on Sunday morning at convention. We get pretty stuck on our traditions for sure. Not sure how the tradition became different there, but thats ok. Its nice here that just about every Sunday morning convention meeting, the Elder Worker, and usually the others as well speak about Christ, and his life and sacrifice for us. Its definitely a very special meeting because of this. JD - I think that's pretty common the world over - that Sunday morning meeting is focused on death/resurrection of Christ. It's just that now I'm used to it being mentioned every sermon because God's plan, past, present and future points to that pinnacle event. It can hardly be spoken about too much. I think if we were all sitting around the Body of Christ after this great sacrifice, we would all be in so much reverence tht non of us would be bickering about the things we bicker about. All of us are thankful. It would just be so much more real. Too bad we can't all break bread together and maybe it would have a simular affect.
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