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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 9, 2015 23:02:21 GMT -5
So Virgo, do you now understand where I am coming from ? I am still waiting for Mr Reviews thoughts on this issue, but I think I will be waiting awhile
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 9, 2015 23:54:19 GMT -5
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 10, 2015 0:01:37 GMT -5
The church must confront domestic abuse
Opinion
By Natasha Moore and John Dickson Updated 12 Mar 2015, 6:42am
Church Photo: How will the Church respond to criticisms around domestic violence? (ABC Local Radio: Margaret Burin)
Conservative evangelical institutions should urgently consider commissioning a study into both the prevalence of domestic violence in our churches and clergy responses to it, write Natasha Moore and John Dickson.
Stories have been proliferating in the last few weeks about the scourge of domestic violence in Australian society - from very personal stories of "intimate partner terrorism" to state and federal government moves to tackle the problem.
This is an issue that affects every community, and one subset of these stories has focused on the role that the church may be playing in perpetuating this kind of abuse - not simply by overlooking it, but also by upholding doctrines, practices or attitudes that allow it to persist.
Debate has focused on the conservative evangelical tradition within Protestant denominations (Anglican, Baptist, Presbyterian, and so on), which emphasises biblical ideas about male headship and female submission.
Julia Baird has led the way in asking: do such ideas serve as an enabling mechanism for men who want to control and abuse their wives?
It is a horrifying thought for believers. Baird has rightly noted that violence and abuse are "the antithesis of the love that is the core of the gospel" - as well as the antithesis of the teaching about the role of husbands within marriage, which properly understood is to entail service and selflessness.
"But," continues Baird, "there is mounting evidence that it has been allowed in places it should be absent from."
In this discussion, which should deeply concern all those - especially church leaders - who have a role in caring for the vulnerable, a number of things are not in question.
There is no question that domestic violence happens in church communities and in "Christian" marriages. As has been made so abundantly and devastatingly clear in the ongoing work of the Royal Commission, the church is by no means immune from problems affecting the rest of society. Especially when we consider that domestic violence tends to be a "hidden" problem, taking place behind closed doors and feeding on silence and shame, it would be naïve for pastors or church members to think that this is not happening in the church. More and more stories from victims are emerging in the wake of Baird's articles that confirm this is a real and pressing problem.
There is no question that some biblical teachings have the potential to be abused by controlling and violent people, even if those teachings under normal circumstances are beautiful and positive. Think of the Bible's exhortation to forgiveness, the sacredness of marriage, love of enemies, or even humility (a virtue closely related to the Bible's notion of submission). All of these could be misused in relationships; the beauty of the ideas is not invalidated by the ways in which they can be exploited or abused.
There is no question that all forms of emotional, psychological, verbal or physical abuse are utterly irreconcilable with a right understanding of Christian teaching. To forgive does not mean to stay in an abusive relationship. To "submit" cannot mean to stay in an abusive relationship. There are varying interpretations among Christians of the biblical passages relating to submission and headship, but not all are valid: to equate submission with control flies in the face of both the letter and the spirit of such passages. In word and deed, Jesus radically revised conventional models of power.
"Whoever wants to be great among you must be your servant," he told his disciples, "and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all." The husband is commissioned, as it were, not with power or authority over his wife, but with a special responsibility toward her to practise self-sacrificial love, just as Jesus did in laying down his life for others: "Husbands, love your wives just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her."
Here's what is in question.
How will the church as a whole respond to these charges?
Let us hope that it takes its cue from Isabella Young (not her real name), whose harrowing account in the Sydney Morning Herald last week of her marriage to an abusive, supposedly Christian man, concludes:
I think we should all be glad that Julia wrote her original article, regardless of our theological position. A defensive rebuttal of her article is of no use to me or to any of the damaged women I know ... Nothing much will improve until every denomination in Australia has a strategy to deal with domestic abuse that is informed by experts and rigorously implemented in each local church.
We believe conservative evangelical institutions should urgently consider commissioning an independent study into both the prevalence of domestic violence in our churches and clergy responses to it.
Nobody should be more horrified by emerging stories of abuse and of grossly damaging advice from pastors than the church itself, and an honest assessment of the situation - regardless of what it uncovers, good news and bad - is crucial to finding a way forward.
Sandy Grant of St Michael's Anglican Cathedral in Wollongong argued (successfully) in 2013 for Anglican training institutions to increase and improve training for clergy in responding to domestic violence in their congregations. We need more work in this direction.
Historically, criticisms like those of recent weeks have been of great benefit to the church - illuminating areas that have become blind spots for those on the inside. The criticisms of environmentalists, for example, forced Christians to go back to their Bibles and rediscover the mandate to care for God's good earth.
Criticisms that mainline denominations are too "white-Anglo-middleclass" have helped churches in recent decades to revive one of the most basic insights of Scripture: God is the "God of all nations". And, of course, the child abuse scandal stands as a monumental, shameful example of how institutions have been too slow to respond, or have responded with defensiveness, denial and an instinct to protect the institution instead of the victims.
In all of these cases, Christians have the insights of those outside the church to thank for forcing them to look in the mirror and observe how far they've departed from the way of Jesus Christ.
Discussions like this can help the church to be a better version of itself, in service to the wider community. May the recent criticisms by Baird and others be one of those times!
Dr Natasha Moore is a Research Fellow at the Centre for Public Christianity. She has a PhD in English Literature from the University of Cambridge. Dr John Dickson is an author and historian specialising in early Jewish and Christian history. He is Founding Director of the Centre for Public Christianity and Honorary Fellow of the Department of Ancient History, Macquarie University
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Post by jondough on Jul 10, 2015 10:08:20 GMT -5
I think most to all people TODAY would consider how I was raised - domestic violence, and child abuse. I was spanked, belted, hit, wooden spoon, paddle, etc....A hand spanking was like no spanking at all.
Was I damaged by it? Not at all. That was the way back then...not just in the fellowship, but society in general.
Society has come a long ways.
Do I think I grew up with domestic violence? no. Like I said, things were different then. I know my perents love(d) me, and were doing what they knew. Today they are the most wonderful parents and grandparents anyone could possibly ask for.
What would I think if I saw someone doing to thier kid what I received? I would be appallled! I would stop them immediately, and let them know that I WILL call the authoritites.
Do I spank my own kids? My first one got some swats with our hands on his rump. After that, we have learned that there are much betteer ways to disipline than spankings, and in the end, are more effective.
So much goes for many things discussed on this board. We hear about things that some went through years ago. Many things have changed....such as the major control thing by workers & such. The Workers in my area are loving, not assuming, and don't try to control people at all. Encourage - yes. Control - no.
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Post by rational on Jul 10, 2015 11:40:05 GMT -5
I think most to all people TODAY would consider how I was raised - domestic violence, and child abuse. I was spanked, belted, hit, wooden spoon, paddle, etc....A hand spanking was like no spanking at all. Was I damaged by it? Not at all. This is known as 'self reporting' and is not always 100% accurate. I agree. You cannot apply the today's norms of society to what was happening decades ago. Another problem is that we are dealing with humans and all people react differently. Some workers assume they have power and use it to lord over people. And then there are people who give those workers their power and allow them to lord over them. When things don't go well it is difficult to get that power back. You can see that some people are the same as those appointed "Hall Monitor" in school and assumed that was the same as being king!
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 10, 2015 18:28:48 GMT -5
From another thread: ***** . Post by Bert on Jun 29, 2015 at 6:14pm Roselyn, you say you suffered 'domestic violence' in your 'professing upbringing.' I seriously doubt 'domestic violence' is the norm in my church. You are suggesting that in fact it IS the norm. That's the first problem. The second one is the definition of 'domestic violence', some feminists suggest this could even be a man yelling at a woman. Some here might think it's denying children the things most other children enjoy." Just to clarify, I did not say domestic violence is the norm in the F&W Church, what I did say was domestic violence was the norm in my home as a child. But is domestic violence that does happen in the F&W looked at the same as CSA by the workers ? Is it something that has been brushed under the mat ? Domestic violence and CSA according to the definition in law statutes are criminal offences. Criminal matters need to be dealt with by the law. Where I work workers advise friends who are victims of crime to report the crime to law authorities. Review, this is my question, if you as a worker knew/suspected that a woman who was part of the F&W Church was being abused by her husband what would you do ? Would you personally go and speak to the family/man involved ? Would you go & speak to the woman involved ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 10, 2015 18:56:33 GMT -5
I think most to all people TODAY would consider how I was raised - domestic violence, and child abuse. I was spanked, belted, hit, wooden spoon, paddle, etc....A hand spanking was like no spanking at all. Was I damaged by it? Not at all. That was the way back then...not just in the fellowship, but society in general. Society has come a long ways. Do I think I grew up with domestic violence? no. Like I said, things were different then. I know my perents love(d) me, and were doing what they knew. Today they are the most wonderful parents and grandparents anyone could possibly ask for. What would I think if I saw someone doing to thier kid what I received? I would be appallled! I would stop them immediately, and let them know that I WILL call the authoritites. Do I spank my own kids? My first one got some swats with our hands on his rump. After that, we have learned that there are much betteer ways to disipline than spankings, and in the end, are more effective. So much goes for many things discussed on this board. We hear about things that some went through years ago. Many things have changed....such as the major control thing by workers & such. The Workers in my area are loving, not assuming, and don't try to control people at all. Encourage - yes. Control - no. Jondough, there is a big difference between being spanked as a child and witnessing domestic violence as a child ! Yes things were different back in the 60's & 70's and earlier, people are more aware now of abuse and the effect it has long term. If you didn't live in a home where you witnessed domestic violence you don't understand.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 10, 2015 18:58:40 GMT -5
I would do nothing until I was approached by one of the parties. Do you understand that it is not always an option for a women who is being abused to be able to approach a worker about what is happening ? Is a man that is abusing his wife going to go to a worker & say "Hey I am bashing my wife" ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 10, 2015 19:32:20 GMT -5
Review, seeing as you think I don't understand boundaries and appropriate conduct of a minister in domestic matters, can you please explain them. That is what I have been asking all along.
Another question I have is if you knew/suspected a man was abusing his wife would he be "stood down" in the meeting from taking part of the emblems?
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Post by jondough on Jul 10, 2015 19:42:01 GMT -5
I think most to all people TODAY would consider how I was raised - domestic violence, and child abuse. I was spanked, belted, hit, wooden spoon, paddle, etc....A hand spanking was like no spanking at all. Was I damaged by it? Not at all. That was the way back then...not just in the fellowship, but society in general. Society has come a long ways. Do I think I grew up with domestic violence? no. Like I said, things were different then. I know my perents love(d) me, and were doing what they knew. Today they are the most wonderful parents and grandparents anyone could possibly ask for. What would I think if I saw someone doing to thier kid what I received? I would be appallled! I would stop them immediately, and let them know that I WILL call the authoritites. Do I spank my own kids? My first one got some swats with our hands on his rump. After that, we have learned that there are much betteer ways to disipline than spankings, and in the end, are more effective. So much goes for many things discussed on this board. We hear about things that some went through years ago. Many things have changed....such as the major control thing by workers & such. The Workers in my area are loving, not assuming, and don't try to control people at all. Encourage - yes. Control - no. Jondough, there is a big difference between being spanked as a child and witnessing domestic violence as a child ! Yes things were different back in the 60's & 70's and earlier, people are more aware now of abuse and the effect it has long term. If you didn't live in a home where you witnessed domestic violence you don't understand. I understand Roslyn, and completely agree. I wasn't trying to compare the two. My dad was raised in that type of envireoment and ended up raising his own siblings at his Grandparents house in order to get away from the abuse. Although he was a very tough disiplinarian on me as explained earlier, fortuntely he did't bring the abuse into our home. Ironically, he only spanked my sister once in her entire life. My main point was that things have changed emensly from the past. Society in general have come a long ways. I was not trying to deminish what you have witnessed. That was most likely not acceptable now or back then.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 10, 2015 19:55:16 GMT -5
It is wrong for a Minister to get involved in a domestic dispute/matter unless he is approached by one of the parties. Regarding your 2nd question. I feel no need to answer that question; you are not a member of our church. If/when you do become a member again ask your local workers about it. So if you suspect a women is being abused by her husband you would not approach her and ask the question ? As a Minister what do you feel your duty/responsibility is to those who are being abused ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 10, 2015 19:55:36 GMT -5
Jondough, there is a big difference between being spanked as a child and witnessing domestic violence as a child ! Yes things were different back in the 60's & 70's and earlier, people are more aware now of abuse and the effect it has long term. If you didn't live in a home where you witnessed domestic violence you don't understand. I understand Roslyn, and completely agree. I wasn't trying to compare the two. My dad was raised in that type of envireoment and ended up raising his own siblings at his Grandparents house in order to get away from the abuse. Although he was a very tough disiplinarian on me as explained earlier, fortuntely he did't bring the abuse into our home. Ironically, he only spanked my sister once in her entire life. My main point was that things have changed emensly from the past. Society in general have come a long ways. I was not trying to deminish what you have witnessed. That was most likely not acceptable now or back then. Thank you JD
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 10, 2015 19:58:28 GMT -5
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Post by jondough on Jul 10, 2015 20:06:19 GMT -5
Just butting in, but I would think in regard to domestic matters, the fact that you're a Worker, Elder, Saint, or what have you.....it doesn't really matter. We all have the same responsibility for reporting suspected abuse. But this can be a VERY delicate thing. It would be horible to report something that wasn't actually happening. Basically would be seen as a false acusation. This is where the ones close to this person would (privately) throw in the suble "so & so......is everything all right?".......
Then take it from there.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 10, 2015 20:16:14 GMT -5
I agree JD it is a very delicate matter, my concern is some workers are very quick to interfere in some family matters like if a person is marrying an "outsider" but with things like domestic violence sometimes they don't want to know. Also interesting when you read how other churches deal with domestic violence and how Minister are taught what their responsibilities are.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 10, 2015 20:19:59 GMT -5
"Pastorally caring for women traumatised by domestic violence There are three pastoral principles which arise from Jesus’ encounter with haemorrhaging women: that you make the effort to 1) stop, 2) listen and 3) believe those who come with critical pastoral issues. The next section provides you with specific advice on how to apply these principles for women experiencing domestic violence. Some major initial observations Domestic violence (see page 6) has been described as a pattern of controlling and abusive behaviour used by an intimate partner during a relationship or after separation. The abuse or violence takes many forms including physical, psychological, sexual, social, economic, legal and spiritual. It is also a misuse of male power. Consequently, women who have been disempowered are suffering from grief, trauma, a major loss of self-love and a difficulty in relating to the world. The key tasks of a pastoral carer (or Minister) are addressed in the following questions: • How can I empower this woman? • How can I assist this woman to journey towards healing? It is important to address these two questions in every dimension of the pastoral session. It is important for the pastoral carer (or Minister): • To provide a safe environment, a centre of hospitality, in which the woman is free Jesus said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace.” Luke 8:43-48 Pastoral Theology - Jesus stops, turns and sees her For reflection…. As we pray with and ponder on this Gospel story, let us reflect on the pattern of behaviour that seems to be present. How are we to respond to those who are suffering from violence? The woman is living on the very edge of society – she is ‘invisible’ or ‘untouchable’ to those around her. She has been ostracised by the community and she feels diminished and almost defeated by her circumstances. The story tells of both her pain and her hope. The crowds are surrounding Jesus – pushing in on him, calling on him and jostling for a place alongside him. Jesus is in the centre of the crowd, feeling himself being pushed in various directions and struggling to move forward. In spite of the pressure around him, he is aware of the presence of the woman: he knows that someone is trying to reach him. The crowd discourages him and behaves as if to say ‘it’s your imagination’; ‘there’s nothing there’; ‘ignore it’. Deadlines to meet. Places to go. But Jesus is not deterred in his response to the woman: he stops, he turns and he sees her. And in that moment, the woman becomes ‘visible’ and at peace; her full dignity as a human being has been restored. 32 Domesticomestic Violenceiolence HANDBOOK FOR CLERGY AND PASTORAL WORKERS to share her story in whatever way she chooses, and to disclose or not disclose aspects of her experience. (Cf. Jesus at the well with the Samaritan woman) • To be empathetic, compassionate (i.e. sharing and understanding her pain) and non-judgmental. • To remember that the woman will not only have difficulty sharing her story with him/ her, but also in articulating it aloud to herself. • After listening intently to the story to assist the woman to embrace her strengths, including the ability to survive and, often, an ability to hope for a better life. • To assist this woman to understand abuse from the perspective of losses to personhood (which are enormous), and the many ways this abuse has damaged her ability to relate to the world. • To share insights you’ve gained from her story, and from grief literature, that assist her to expand her understanding of grief. It is particularly important to help her to begin to discern the difference between love (the nurturing of a person) and control (taking away a person’s autonomy and integrity); love and violence; and love (building up self-worth) and intimidation (destruction of self-worth). It is vitally important to help the woman realise that she is not responsible for her partner ’s behaviour . • To find ways together for her to strengthen her damaged personhood and explore ways to re-engage with the world. • To assist the woman with ways of ensuring her children are safe. Sometimes the partner has used fear and intimidation to turn the children against her, which adds further pain to her grief, and complicates it even more. • To confront injustice (noting that abuse has physical, psychological, sexual, social, economic, legal and spiritual dimensions, and is a misuse of male power) • To assist her in understanding that domestic violence is not simply an individual issue or a relational issue but also a social, national and world issue. • To assist her to slowly journey through her grief and trauma towards healing, by sharing encouragement, empathy, hope and wisdom. • To remember once again that every dimension of the pastoral session should seek to empower this traumatised woman to journey towards healing and wholeness. • To decide honestly when to refer the woman to skilled practitioners in this specialised area of counselling. • Women can receive help by phoning the Domestic Violence Crisis Service on 1300 782 200. This service can arrange emergency accommodation as well as referrals for outreach support services. (They have the contact details for all the South Australian services, so can refer women/workers to their appropriate local service). Providing options is another way of empowering women traumatised by domestic violence."
From page 31 of the above handbook
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Post by jondough on Jul 10, 2015 20:31:37 GMT -5
Since our Workers don't receive any formal training, I would say that how its handled really depends on what workers may be in the area at the time.
I can say though that most of the Workers today really stay out of peoples personal business. I know several professing people that have married "outside" in the last 10 years. None of them were talked to, or even looked down on. Most of the spouses are either professing now, or at least coming regularly to meeting. Like I stated in an earlier post, they are not trying to so much control peoples lives anymore, but are there more to encourage and teach in whatever way they feel they can. Many feel very inadequate.
Because of this, as stated above, I wouldn't separate them from elder, saint, babe, or whomever in their response to something they may suspect.
disclaimer: I can only speak for what I witness in our area, and others that I have lots of contacts (most of the US)
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 11, 2015 3:26:22 GMT -5
Since our Workers don't receive any formal training, I would say that how its handled really depends on what workers may be in the area at the time. I can say though that most of the Workers today really stay out of peoples personal business. I know several professing people that have married "outside" in the last 10 years. None of them were talked to, or even looked down on. Most of the spouses are either professing now, or at least coming regularly to meeting. Like I stated in an earlier post, they are not trying to so much control peoples lives anymore, but are there more to encourage and teach in whatever way they feel they can. Many feel very inadequate. Because of this, as stated above, I wouldn't separate them from elder, saint, babe, or whomever in their response to something they may suspect. disclaimer: I can only speak for what I witness in our area, and others that I have lots of contacts (most of the US) JD I would have to agree that how this issue is handled depends on the individual worker, which sometimes is NOT a good thing. Maybe whyisitso can give her perspective of how some workers in Australia (QLD) handle the issue of outsiders. A Queensland worker was quick to tell me my sons would be better off with their alcoholic father than us divorcing, yet with domestic violence they seem to be very quiet !
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 11, 2015 3:46:56 GMT -5
It is wrong for a Minister to get involved in a domestic dispute/matter unless he is approached by one of the parties. Regarding your 2nd question. I feel no need to answer that question; you are not a member of our church. If/when you do become a member again ask your local workers about it. Thank you for replying to my questions Review.
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Post by fred on Jul 11, 2015 4:59:29 GMT -5
Review, seeing as you think I don't understand boundaries and appropriate conduct of a minister in domestic matters, can you please explain them. That is what I have been asking all along. Another question I have is if you knew/suspected a man was abusing his wife would he be "stood down" in the meeting from taking part of the emblems? There is a problem in your question Roselyn. Domestic violence (in particular spouse abuse), is mostly a hidden problem. Even close friends do not know it is happening, so who can do anything about it? If it spills out into public view then people have a moral responsibility to act, even a minister such as 'review'. Women who are being abused feel trapped and helpless and so endure, in some cases losing their lives.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 11, 2015 19:34:17 GMT -5
It is wrong for a Minister to get involved in a domestic dispute/matter unless he is approached by one of the parties. Regarding your 2nd question. I feel no need to answer that question; you are not a member of our church. If/when you do become a member again ask your local workers about it. Oh! Clever! Another welching out of an answer! I give you a very large A+!! You are learning very fast
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Post by LouiseKeating on Jul 11, 2015 21:59:50 GMT -5
hi dmmichgood have you ever hit a child? even once?
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 11, 2015 22:23:26 GMT -5
hi dmmichgood have you ever hit a child? even once? Hi, louisekeating. Why do you ask?
Have you ever hit a child? even once?
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Post by fred on Jul 11, 2015 22:38:29 GMT -5
hi dmmichgood have you ever hit a child? even once? Hi, louisekeating. Why do you ask?
Have you ever hit a child? even once?
Welching ...?
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 11, 2015 22:54:31 GMT -5
Review, seeing as you think I don't understand boundaries and appropriate conduct of a minister in domestic matters, can you please explain them. That is what I have been asking all along. Another question I have is if you knew/suspected a man was abusing his wife would he be "stood down" in the meeting from taking part of the emblems? There is a problem in your question Roselyn. Domestic violence (in particular spouse abuse), is mostly a hidden problem. Even close friends do not know it is happening, so who can do anything about it? If it spills out into public view then people have a moral responsibility to act, even a minister such as 'review'. Women who are being abused feel trapped and helpless and so endure, in some cases losing their lives. Fred I understand what you are saying, and I know how it is hidden. The question is at what point does the church have a responsibility to the person being abused ? Also if a women did approach a worker about abuse what would they do ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 11, 2015 23:01:06 GMT -5
It is wrong for a Minister to get involved in a domestic dispute/matter unless he is approached by one of the parties. Regarding your 2nd question. I feel no need to answer that question; you are not a member of our church. If/when you do become a member again ask your local workers about it. Oh! Clever! Another welching out of an answer! I give you a very large A+!! You are learning very fast
Dmmg, it is the typical non answer of workers ! But they are quick to have an opinion & voice it if they even suspect a person who is divorced has a 'friend" ! They will even make a special visit to find out what is happening ! Meanwhile a man can be abusing his wife & appear to be a good "professing man" and nothing will be said to him !
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 11, 2015 23:10:31 GMT -5
Roselyn A question for you; you ask questions of others so you won't mind this being asked of you Since you are not a member of this church why are you asking so much what about what responsibility the church towards a person who may be abused? The reason I am asking Review is because my mother who is 75 years old has only just now been able to talk about the abuse she suffered from my father for the whole of their married life ( 25 years). As a child I witnessed my mother being bashed black & blue, I still have not dealt with all the things I seen as they have been buried for so long. My grandmother who is 101 years old still professing knew what was happening, but no one did anything to stop it. As I have said I had a "strict professing upbringing" everything had to look right but meanwhile my mother was suffering. I may no longer be a member of the F&W, but that is what I was raised in. I still have a lot of family who are part of the F&W, and being the 5th generation of 6 that have been part of the F&W I believe I have as much right to ask these questions as anyone else !
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2015 23:11:57 GMT -5
Quote - "typical non answer of workers" Exes often default to the "non-answer" on the TMB, is that wrong?
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