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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 2, 2015 21:55:06 GMT -5
From another thread: ***** . Post by Bert on Jun 29, 2015 at 6:14pm
Roselyn, you say you suffered 'domestic violence' in your 'professing upbringing.' I seriously doubt 'domestic violence' is the norm in my church. You are suggesting that in fact it IS the norm. That's the first problem. The second one is the definition of 'domestic violence', some feminists suggest this could even be a man yelling at a woman. Some here might think it's denying children the things most other children enjoy."
Just to clarify, I did not say domestic violence is the norm in the F&W Church, what I did say was domestic violence was the norm in my home as a child. But is domestic violence that does happen in the F&W looked at the same as CSA by the workers ? Is it something that has been brushed under the mat ?
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Post by Lee on Jul 2, 2015 22:05:56 GMT -5
Sure it has.
Everyone knows the 2x2 church is the only church that doesn't have problems and that's why the spirit of presumption is the same everywhere.
In defense of Bert though, I don't think its his position, nor do I think anything he's said anything recently could be accurately construed to say he believes DV doesn't occur in the sect or that it should be overlooked or that it doesn't matter.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 2, 2015 22:15:00 GMT -5
Lee, I think the last part of Bert's comment speaks for itself, seeing as I had said that I grew up in a home where domestic violence was the norm, then I went on to say I seen things as a child that no child should see.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2015 22:25:37 GMT -5
this is your post he referenced and I could see where he mis-understood what you were saying
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 2, 2015 22:34:52 GMT -5
Wally what does this mean to you : "I had a very strict "professing upbringing" where domestic violence was the norm, as long as it all looked ok on the outside and everyone kept quiet it was ok ! But as a child growing up in this environment it was NOT ok. "
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2015 22:43:48 GMT -5
Wally what does this mean to you : "I had a very strict "professing upbringing" where domestic violence was the norm, as long as it all looked ok on the outside and everyone kept quiet it was ok ! But as a child growing up in this environment it was NOT ok. " yeah but then you went into a general statement about the friends:
just because a family goes to meetings, missions, conventions and everything looks wonderful on the outside does NOT mean the children have a wonderful childhood.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 2, 2015 22:55:38 GMT -5
Wally that was in reference to Bert stating that he could tell where a child had the best childhood. Which still doesn't answer my question of "How is domestic violence dealt with amongst the F&W " ?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2015 22:59:45 GMT -5
Wally that was in reference to Bert stating that he could tell where a child had the best childhood. Which still doesn't answer my question of "How is domestic violence dealt with amongst the F&W " ? I don't think there is much public knowledge on how its dealt with. I know in the case of my mother it was handled with care and consideration they didn't give my mother any flack...
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 2, 2015 23:00:27 GMT -5
Roselyn T Avatar
Jun 28, 2015 at 2:05pm Roselyn T said: Bert are you trying to say if children profess young they are not going to commit sexual acts ? Or if they profess young it is going to stop adults abusing them ? Bit of a stretch don't you think !
No, I had the above quote put here because Admin moved another quote from a thread as not being relevent to the topic of young children professing. The point isn't about an individual case, but a generalized statement about a community's culture. Another way to put it is to ask - what child is more likely to be abused, someone from an Amish background or someone born to a single hip hop parent from the slums of Detroit? Exceptions don't prove the rule.
Well Bert, I don't think you or I can answer that question.
Post by Bert on Jun 28, 2015 at 6:58pm
I can answer it - some people are more like to do X,Y or Z if their culture is more accepting of that behavior, or if their culture is more likely to trigger that response.
So as a child I would prefer the Amish background to the single parent ghetto situation in Detroit. I might have a loving mother in the ghetto, and I might have an abusive mother in an Amish community - but I know where my best chances for a happy child
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2015 23:11:08 GMT -5
Roselyn T Avatar Jun 28, 2015 at 2:05pm Roselyn T said: Bert are you trying to say if children profess young they are not going to commit sexual acts ? Or if they profess young it is going to stop adults abusing them ? Bit of a stretch don't you think ! No, I had the above quote put here because Admin moved another quote from a thread as not being relevent to the topic of young children professing. The point isn't about an individual case, but a generalized statement about a community's culture. Another way to put it is to ask - what child is more likely to be abused, someone from an Amish background or someone born to a single hip hop parent from the slums of Detroit? Exceptions don't prove the rule. Well Bert, I don't think you or I can answer that question. Post by Bert on Jun 28, 2015 at 6:58pm I can answer it - some people are more like to do X,Y or Z if their culture is more accepting of that behavior, or if their culture is more likely to trigger that response. So as a child I would prefer the Amish background to the single parent ghetto situation in Detroit. I might have a loving mother in the ghetto, and I might have an abusive mother in an Amish community - but I know where my best chances for a happy child I don't know the statistic but I do know a little about the amish as my grandpa was amish and I would say your odds would be better with an amish family than a ghetto family
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 2, 2015 23:22:44 GMT -5
Wally, do you know what its like to live with an abusive parent or domestic violence ? I don't care if they are Amish, Christian, Catholic or atheist ! The issue is if they are abusive it affects the child !
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Post by withlove on Jul 2, 2015 23:33:26 GMT -5
It might be easier to get out of the ghetto than some Amish communities. But that's kind of off-topic.
I'm sorry, Ros and Wally for your experiences. And that Ros wasn't given the same good treatment that Wally's mother was.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 3, 2015 0:59:37 GMT -5
It might be easier to get out of the ghetto than some Amish communities. But that's kind of off-topic. I'm sorry, Ros and Wally for your experiences. And that Ros wasn't given the same good treatment that Wally's mother was. Thank you withlove For too long Domestic Violence has been brushed aside the same as CSA its time it was talked about !
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Post by Lee on Jul 3, 2015 10:03:08 GMT -5
Lee, I think the last part of Bert's comment speaks for itself, seeing as I had said that I grew up in a home where domestic violence was the norm, then I went on to say I seen things as a child that no child should see. Do you mean this: Bert wrote: "The second one is the definition of 'domestic violence', some feminists suggest this could even be a man yelling at a woman. Some here might think it's denying children the things most other children enjoy." Context and motivation determines whether this behavior is abusive or not.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2015 12:15:08 GMT -5
Wally, do you know what its like to live with an abusive parent or domestic violence ? I don't care if they are Amish, Christian, Catholic or atheist ! The issue is if they are abusive it affects the child ! yes I do I seen it first hand and experienced it first hand...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2015 14:04:02 GMT -5
Rose, I have never thanked you publicly for all the support you have given me in this forum. I do so now!
Also, please just consider the source when anyone attacks you for a perfectly innocent comment you have made here. I wish now with everything within me that is what I had done. It was wrong of/for me to have done anything otherwise, and I grieve over not having done so. It is the course I intend to take in the future!
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Post by rational on Jul 3, 2015 14:19:12 GMT -5
Wally what does this mean to you : "I had a very strict "professing upbringing" where domestic violence was the norm, as long as it all looked ok on the outside and everyone kept quiet it was ok ! But as a child growing up in this environment it was NOT ok. " What it means to me is that you grew up in a somewhat dysfunctional home where members of the family belonged to the F&W organization. As with many families in crisis the members will grasp at anything to support and justify their dysfunctional behavior. In your case it might have been the strictness of the rules that was used to justify the abnormal behavior. It would be difficult to place the blame on the F&W organization (not that I think you were doing that)when there are families that belong that do not exhibit the behaviors to which you eluded. I am sorry you experienced that. No child should. There is such hyper-focus on child sexual abuse that the majority of child abuse gets overlooked.
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Post by rational on Jul 3, 2015 14:25:45 GMT -5
Wally, do you know what its like to live with an abusive parent or domestic violence ? I don't care if they are Amish, Christian, Catholic or atheist ! The issue is if they are abusive it affects the child ! Wait a minute. Atheists? Never. It would be against The Atheist Code of Acceptable Behavior (Vol. 32.7-h). Dealing with child abuse has many difficulties. Even determining the root cause can be a daunting task if there is not some degree of cooperation from some responsible person. And then the role of drugs, alcohol, and high stress levels only make a bad situation worse.
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Post by rational on Jul 3, 2015 14:49:38 GMT -5
Do you mean this: Bert wrote: "The second one is the definition of 'domestic violence', some feminists suggest this could even be a man yelling at a woman. Some here might think it's denying children the things most other children enjoy." Some here might think it's denying children the necessary things most other children enjoy. A safe caring environment, protection from harm, love, shelter, food, respect, guidance, trust, etc. I am many can add to this list.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 3, 2015 19:45:46 GMT -5
Wally what does this mean to you : "I had a very strict "professing upbringing" where domestic violence was the norm, as long as it all looked ok on the outside and everyone kept quiet it was ok ! But as a child growing up in this environment it was NOT ok. " What it means to me is that you grew up in a somewhat dysfunctional home where members of the family belonged to the F&W organization. As with many families in crisis the members will grasp at anything to support and justify their dysfunctional behavior. In your case it might have been the strictness of the rules that was used to justify the abnormal behavior. It would be difficult to place the blame on the F&W organization (not that I think you were doing that)when there are families that belong that do not exhibit the behaviors to which you eluded. I am sorry you experienced that. No child should. There is such hyper-focus on child sexual abuse that the majority of child abuse gets overlooked. Thank you Rat, that is exactly what I meant !
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2015 0:50:25 GMT -5
Wally what does this mean to you : "I had a very strict "professing upbringing" where domestic violence was the norm, as long as it all looked ok on the outside and everyone kept quiet it was ok ! But as a child growing up in this environment it was NOT ok. " i can't see how it could be termed as a strict "professing upbringing", anyone who loves Christ would deal that same love on their families. Jesus gave so many examples of how we should treat others let alone how we should treat our families i would have to say for any who use violence in the family or one anyone is driven by human nature and is not professing as it should be i am sorry for any who know such in their lives, i am fortunate that i have not experienced in my life by my parents nor have i used such on my family
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 4, 2015 3:32:08 GMT -5
Hey Virgo, I didn't realise that you lived my childhood !
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Post by whyisitso on Jul 4, 2015 4:18:15 GMT -5
Wally what does this mean to you : "I had a very strict "professing upbringing" where domestic violence was the norm, as long as it all looked ok on the outside and everyone kept quiet it was ok ! But as a child growing up in this environment it was NOT ok. " i can't see how it could be termed as a strict "professing upbringing", anyone who loves Christ would deal that same love on their families. Jesus gave so many examples of how we should treat others let alone how we should treat our families i would have to say for any who use violence in the family or one anyone is driven by human nature and is not professing as it should be i am sorry for any who know such in their lives, i am fortunate that i have not experienced in my life by my parents nor have i used such on my family There's plenty of 'professing' people who hide behind the 'professing' tag and do illegal things Virgo.
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Post by snow on Jul 4, 2015 12:39:57 GMT -5
Wally what does this mean to you : "I had a very strict "professing upbringing" where domestic violence was the norm, as long as it all looked ok on the outside and everyone kept quiet it was ok ! But as a child growing up in this environment it was NOT ok. " i can't see how it could be termed as a strict "professing upbringing", anyone who loves Christ would deal that same love on their families. Jesus gave so many examples of how we should treat others let alone how we should treat our families i would have to say for any who use violence in the family or one anyone is driven by human nature and is not professing as it should be i am sorry for any who know such in their lives, i am fortunate that i have not experienced in my life by my parents nor have i used such on my family The bible does say you shouldn't spare the rod doesn't it? In any case many verses in the bible have been used to justify the disciplining of children to extremes. What I couldn't understand was no one said anything and didn't stand for the child they knew was being abused.
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Post by rational on Jul 4, 2015 13:39:01 GMT -5
The bible does say you shouldn't spare the rod doesn't it? In any case many verses in the bible have been used to justify the disciplining of children to extremes. What I couldn't understand was no one said anything and didn't stand for the child they knew was being abused. The reasons why the reports are not made and complex and interesting. How many people have seen a child being severely punished in a store but have just 'walked away'? I did confront a woman once and tried to point out that the object of her anger was just a child. She did offer me some kind advice, some of which involved doing things with my body that I though to be not possible. (I did refrain from asking her to explain!)So I told her that I was a mandated reporter and said she had a choice - curtail her behavior towards the child or I was required to call CPS. She bought the lie, paid for the groceries, and left. I probably should have reported her. It was a lie because in states where everyone is not required to report abuse, a mandated reporter is only required to report abuse when discovered while working at their profession. Shopping was not, at the time, my profession! Reporting is almost always the way to go but I always think about what it will do to the family and even though Mom or Dad may go a bit off the deep edge from time to time, it is still the child's parent and seeing the police take them ito custory, if it comes to that, is not something to which children should be exposed. It is a difficult line to walk.
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Post by snow on Jul 4, 2015 15:04:11 GMT -5
The bible does say you shouldn't spare the rod doesn't it? In any case many verses in the bible have been used to justify the disciplining of children to extremes. What I couldn't understand was no one said anything and didn't stand for the child they knew was being abused. The reasons why the reports are not made and complex and interesting. How many people have seen a child being severely punished in a store but have just 'walked away'? I did confront a woman once and tried to point out that the object of her anger was just a child. She did offer me some kind advice, some of which involved doing things with my body that I though to be not possible. (I did refrain from asking her to explain!)So I told her that I was a mandated reporter and said she had a choice - curtail her behavior towards the child or I was required to call CPS. She bought the lie, paid for the groceries, and left. I probably should have reported her. It was a lie because in states where everyone is not required to report abuse, a mandated reporter is only required to report abuse when discovered while working at their profession. Shopping was not, at the time, my profession! Reporting is almost always the way to go but I always think about what it will do to the family and even though Mom or Dad may go a bit off the deep edge from time to time, it is still the child's parent and seeing the police take them ito custory, if it comes to that, is not something to which children should be exposed. It is a difficult line to walk. That is true, it is a difficult decision sometimes. But in the case of some children that you know are exposed all the time to that kind of 'off the deep edge' then I think you definitely need to do something. The only thing I know of is to report it. In a small sub community like the meetings people do know more about the severity and frequency of the behavior. But possibly because the group is so tightly knit they don't want to make waves because they have to live with these people in their lives on a more consistent basis than most church members do?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 0:26:25 GMT -5
Quote - "But is domestic violence that does happen in the F&W looked at the same as CSA by the workers ? Is it something that has been brushed under the mat ?" On the farm a little boy brought home a puppy. His father, the elder of that church, dispatched it to the hereafter with a shovel. I heard someone else in the church had a few words with that man - more for the sake of the boy than the dog!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2015 1:02:58 GMT -5
Hey Virgo, I didn't realise that you lived my childhood ! what do you mean?
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