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Post by What Hat on Jul 8, 2015 11:24:27 GMT -5
Hang on, now. Think of a very young child, and now look at the complete scenario and how that might be taught to a young child.
God helps us know when to ask for help from someone we trust
God gives us people in our lives to help us. God wants us to talk to trusted grownups about our worries, concerns or “funny/ uncomfortable feelings” so they can help us be safe.
Note the critical final paragraph. Does that address your concern? Noted. The claim is that god gives children people in their lives to help them. What sign of certification/verification does god provide so the children know which ones have been vetted and found to be OK and which people in their lives are actually child molesters? This teaches and claims that god wants children to talk to trusted adults. Perhaps like a kindly priest that the child has known all their life. Or Uncle Bob that lives in the apartment upstairs and watches the children when Mom and Dad are out. Uncle Bob is Mom's favorite brother. And he brings presents. You are convincing children that god will speak to them and guide them to do the safe thing when zero evidence exists to prove there even is a god and zero evidence that s/he will tell children who they can and cannot trust or guide them to do the safe thing. God does not have a great record of protecting children from any kind of abuse. Teaching children otherwise might fit the needs of the parents to have children believe in a kind and protective god god that will guide them but really, this is a system where, from the child's point of view, people are to be trusted because god is sending child people they can trust. As an atheist, this is a difficult stand to take. I know this can be seen as 'hating' god or trying to convert people to atheism (whatever that might be). But I have strong feelings about teaching children to trust an unproven entity to send them "trusted" people. Parents, priests, ministers, workers, relatives, etc. are 'trusted" and we know that this is often the root of the problem. In these cases the answer lies mainly in asking the right question. I think you will agree that children do have "worries, concerns or funny/ uncomfortable feelings” about things. I think you would also agree that they should talk to trusted grownups, like their parents, about these feelings. In fact, the grooming strategy of pedophiles involves cultivating secrecy and guilt in their dealings with child victims so you can see the wisdom of this advice. If you agree with that much, then the remaining question is whether "God" also sanctions the above policy, e.g. "God wants us to". That becomes an academic question unrelated to the efficacy of the policy. If someone strongly believes in God, I think you'd agree that the sanction of God is helpful to the policy.
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Post by rational on Jul 8, 2015 14:12:26 GMT -5
In these cases the answer lies mainly in asking the right question. I think you will agree that children do have "worries, concerns or funny/ uncomfortable feelings” about things. I think you would also agree that they should talk to trusted grownups, like their parents, about these feelings. In fact, the grooming strategy of pedophiles involves cultivating secrecy and guilt in their dealings with child victims so you can see the wisdom of this advice. The majority of cases of CSA are by these trusted adults. I agree that the child needs to be told who they can trust and who they cannot trust. I also believe that telling them that god will bring the trusted people into their circle of grace is unsupported by any evidence and in teaching children that this is the case is doing the children a disservice and opening up a loophole for abuse. The people most likely to groom children will be the ones the child trusts, or in about 25% of the reported cases, a child. Saying they are in the circle of grace, approved by god, just increases that level of trust. Believing in something/someone does not help if the entity that they believe in cannot deliver as promised. If there any data at all to support the program's contention that god is actively helping and protecting children? Teaching children about god and teaching them the beliefs of the church is wonderful. Teaching them that god will send them trusted people or that god will tell them when there is abuse or not is not beneficial to the children. It is like saying that wearing a Saint Christopher medal around your neck or placing one in your car will protect you when you travel. Criminals that abuse children are able to do so because they are very good at their craft. They are able to fool the parents, the caregivers, the state, the church members, etc. and gain the trust of the children because they are trusted. Add to that the proclaimed vetting by god and you have the perfect storm.
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Post by What Hat on Jul 8, 2015 14:38:59 GMT -5
In these cases the answer lies mainly in asking the right question. I think you will agree that children do have "worries, concerns or funny/ uncomfortable feelings” about things. I think you would also agree that they should talk to trusted grownups, like their parents, about these feelings. In fact, the grooming strategy of pedophiles involves cultivating secrecy and guilt in their dealings with child victims so you can see the wisdom of this advice. The majority of cases of CSA are by these trusted adults. I agree that the child needs to be told who they can trust and who they cannot trust. I also believe that telling them that god will bring the trusted people into their circle of grace is unsupported by any evidence and in teaching children that this is the case is doing the children a disservice and opening up a loophole for abuse. The people most likely to groom children will be the ones the child trusts, or in about 25% of the reported cases, a child. Saying they are in the circle of grace, approved by god, just increases that level of trust. Believing in something/someone does not help if the entity that they believe in cannot deliver as promised. If there any data at all to support the program's contention that god is actively helping and protecting children? Teaching children about god and teaching them the beliefs of the church is wonderful. Teaching them that god will send them trusted people or that god will tell them when there is abuse or not is not beneficial to the children. It is like saying that wearing a Saint Christopher medal around your neck or placing one in your car will protect you when you travel. Criminals that abuse children are able to do so because they are very good at their craft. They are able to fool the parents, the caregivers, the state, the church members, etc. and gain the trust of the children because they are trusted. Add to that the proclaimed vetting by god and you have the perfect storm. "Trusted grownup" or "trusted adult" isn't any old person the kid trusts, or who is offered up to them by God. The "trusted grownup" is identified through a specific classroom process as follows: www.rescathroch.org/faith-formation/6-10Parent%20pdfs/6th-trusted%20adult.pdfAs I have stated before, the entire Circle of Grace program is a detailed curriculum. Please look at the links and film if you wish to offer a detailed critique. There is still the possibility that the person vetted through the 'trusted adult' process abuses the child. What is your solution to that issue? I don't see one.
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Post by snow on Jul 8, 2015 15:28:21 GMT -5
I wholly concur with Roselyn that domestic violence within the F & W has been largely 'swept under the mat' and most have turned a blind eye. Same as in any other community really. Sad though that in our Christian community we haven't had the tools and leadership to effectively stop the practices and help those who are vulnerable and hurt. Anecdotally, I have to agree also that those who have had what would seem to be the 'strictest' & 'straightest', of outwardly appearances do seem to have more of these awful incidences of domestic violence. As an adult I look back with shame at some things I was witness too as a young teenager and wish that i had had the gumption then to speak up ! This is the one that plays on my mind the most , * The man who routinely took his beautiful little daughter from the age of approx 10 months out of the Sunday morning fellowship and belted her so hard we would hear her screams from within the meeting room. By the end of the meeting those darling little legs would have the most awful awful bruises ever. ( His wife a few years later turned up on my Mums doorstep fearing for her life, and poured out the shocking violence she had been suffering for years). Why would it be that my parents or the other adults never said a word about it ? Although there were not very many worker visits to our little part of rural Australia, and I can't remember for sure, there would have been sometimes a worker in our meeting also and they too would have been witness to this. It wasn't something that people did back then, so you weren't alone. I was like that little girl too, taken from meetings because I couldn't sit still and no one stepped in on my behalf either. To this day when I hear a child being hauled out of a restaurant or other places and that child is screaming 'no Daddy, please Daddy' and they are terrified, I freeze and it takes me right back to when that was me screaming. There is a reason for that terrified tone to a child's screams. The helplessness that is felt is incredible and so is the fear.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 8, 2015 19:05:56 GMT -5
Now how typical do you think this story is? Exceptions are used on the TMB to attempt to define the whole. Bert, this story was very typical back in the 70's & 80's. Not so much today because people are more aware of abuse issues !
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 8, 2015 19:12:29 GMT -5
No I am not aware of any child abuse by F&W parents. That's not the same as saying I don't believe it is there. I just don't know - never went looking for it.
Most parents and children I know seem to have happy and normal lives. Certainly a lot better, on the whole, than those in secular families where broken homes have become the norm. Bert I thought you lived in Victoria ? Don't you know Ernie Barry or Chris Chandler ? What about Noel Harvey ? Broken homes are only the norm amongst secular families are they Bert ?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2015 19:19:34 GMT -5
Broken homes are the exception in my church. They are almost the norm now in the wider community. So where are you safer?
Some old stats I collected:
About 47% of Aust children now belong to single parent "families" One third of all Australian teachers plan on quitting their profession because of stress with students. Homeless children have doubled in the past three years Teenage binge drinking doubled in 6 years One quarter of all girls will be sexually assaulted this year 71% increase in sexual violence against children in 9 years. 30.2% of teenagers have sold, consumed or been offered drugs in the past year 9.5% of students have take cocaine in the past year. 30% increase in children on Care and Protection Orders in six years. 2008 Queensland figures reveal a 2000% (two thousand) rise in the rate of juvenile sex attacks in less than 10 years. Australian sexual assaults have increased by 20% over the past decade. 25% of Australian children under the age of 14 have had sex. 25% of Australian men who sought DNA confirmation in paternity cases discovered they are not the father. 40% rise in wives admitting to cheating on their husbands on 20 years - to 14.7%. Auburn University, Montgomery. 50% increase in shoplifting from 2008 to 2010. Australia Retail Assoc.. 30% increase in sexual activity and drinking for year 12 girls since 2002. (Australian Research Centre for Sex, Health and Society.) 50% of parents polled don’t monitor what their children watch on TV, up from 20% just 15 years earlier. Australian Research Alliance for Children and Youth, Dec 7th 2011 Nearly 1 in 5 American women claim to have been sexually assaulted, and 1 in 7 men. National Institute of Justice and the Department of Defense survey 2010/2011 27% increase in violence in Victorian school in 3 years, with 57% of teachers threatened or faced aggressive language. Galaxy Survey Jan 2012. 40% increase in domestic violence reported in Victoria in 5 years (1996-2012) Victorian Police report Feb 2012. UNH Crimes against Children Research Center (CCRC) 2009. Three out of five children were exposed to violence, abuse or a criminal victimization in the last year, including 46 percent who had been physically assaulted, 10 percent who had been maltreated by a caregiver, 6 percent who had been sexually victimized, and 10 percent who had witnessed an assault within their family. Drug addicted babies tripled in ten years. 2012 Journal American Medical Assoc.. Juvenile male assaults more than doubled in ten years (1527 in 2000-2001 to 3776 in 2009-2010) Vic Children Court stats. 25% increase in assaults against paramedics, police and firefighters in four years. 2012 Victorian Police stats.
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Post by fixit on Jul 8, 2015 20:02:35 GMT -5
I wholly concur with Roselyn that domestic violence within the F & W has been largely 'swept under the mat' and most have turned a blind eye. Same as in any other community really. Sad though that in our Christian community we haven't had the tools and leadership to effectively stop the practices and help those who are vulnerable and hurt. Anecdotally, I have to agree also that those who have had what would seem to be the 'strictest' & 'straightest', of outwardly appearances do seem to have more of these awful incidences of domestic violence. As an adult I look back with shame at some things I was witness too as a young teenager and wish that i had had the gumption then to speak up ! This is the one that plays on my mind the most , * The man who routinely took his beautiful little daughter from the age of approx 10 months out of the Sunday morning fellowship and belted her so hard we would hear her screams from within the meeting room. By the end of the meeting those darling little legs would have the most awful awful bruises ever. ( His wife a few years later turned up on my Mums doorstep fearing for her life, and poured out the shocking violence she had been suffering for years). Why would it be that my parents or the other adults never said a word about it ? Although there were not very many worker visits to our little part of rural Australia, and I can't remember for sure, there would have been sometimes a worker in our meeting also and they too would have been witness to this. We were taught that it's virtuous to discipline children no matter what it took.
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Post by bitterbetty on Jul 8, 2015 20:10:51 GMT -5
Domestic violence. Oh what a vicious thing. What a difficult thing to get away from (safely) for some...
You know, we often think that PTSD applies mainly to war veterans. They used to call it 'shell shock'.
But there are many victims and former victims of domestic violence who suffer from PTSD as a result of the violence off and on for the rest of their lives. I feel for all victims. Children, even in the womb (recent findings) have been shown to suffer from PTSD as a result of violence the mother may have been subjected to while baby was in utero. It breaks my heart.
There is this culture of 'cover-up' associated with it as well. And, sadly, the ones who tend to cover it up from the get go are the victims themselves. Not sure how to get past that one...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2015 20:13:26 GMT -5
Quote - "We were taught that it's virtuous to discipline children no matter what it took."
Fixit and Roselyn - your logic fallacies here are 1 - bias sampling 2 - misrepresentation
I fail to see broken F&W homes like I see outside I have never even heard of anyone disciplining a child "no matter what it took."
"Cover up", "child abuse", "CSA" What would we expect from the TMB, stories of stable and loving homes?
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 8, 2015 20:48:17 GMT -5
No I am not aware of any child abuse by F&W parents. That's not the same as saying I don't believe it is there. I just don't know - never went looking for it.
Most parents and children I know seem to have happy and normal lives. Certainly a lot better, on the whole, than those in secular families where broken homes have become the norm. Bert I thought you lived in Victoria ? Don't you know Ernie Barry or Chris Chandler ? What about Noel Harvey ? Broken homes are only the norm amongst secular families are they Bert ? Bert you didn't answer this question.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 8, 2015 21:02:33 GMT -5
Something for you to read Bert :
Eldon Tenniswood - A Family Counseling Meeting at Santee - June 28, 1977
Love in the homelife is the backbone of the country, the church and it makes for happiness in the home. People are looking for happiness and that comes by having the love of God as the ruling power in our hearts and in our homes. There is no better influence in which to raise your family than having the love of God in the home. Mother told me when I went into the work not to tell people how to raise their children, because many of the ex-workers' children were not obedient, but we in the work have observed a few things which we like to pass on. In Judges 13, it speaks of Manoah, who, when the angel of the Lord came to them and told them they were to have a son, "prayed, 'How shall we order the child?'" The angel returned and told them what the mother was to do and how she should order her life, but nothing was said how to order the child's life. So tonight, I feel the one thing that will help you the most in rearing children is to, have the new nature from God and you can then live the love of God in the home. Love includes correction, guidance and our influence in the home. It is very difficult to have the love of God rule in our lives and home, because we all have a human nature which desires to take its own way. There are two things love always does - sacrifices and serves.
When a wife reverences her husband, she will sacrifice for him and serve him. When the husband loves his wife, he will do the same for her. When people get married, they have a great love for one another and are so willing to do for one another, but after a little while, they feel the other one is not doing his part or her part. The husband sometimes demands service, and sometimes the wife demands service. When they do this, they do not want to sacrifice for one another. If a boy or girl is raised in a home where there is love and the husband is the head of the home, yet makes sacrifices and serves his family, and the mother does likewise, usually the children have a good background when they marry. If the father is cruel, the chances are that the children will take on that trait. If the mother is bossy, the children often take on that trait, especially the girls. There is no better influence under which to train up a child than for the wife to love her husband and the husband to love his wife. Sometimes the ugly things we see in children, they learn from their parents. One Saturday, two little girls about three and foul years old were quarreling in a home. The mother said to the father, "I have them all week, so it's your turn today." He took the little ones and told them about God being a living God and He sees things and hears things. He told them God heard the murmurings of the Children of Israel, and lie hears when you quarrel. He got his point over very well, because one of the little children said to him, "Daddy, does God hear when you and Mama quarrel?"
I don't think my father and mother always agreed, but never did they disagree in our presence. They were quite different from one another, but they agreed to stand by one another and we children never knew there was any difference in their opinions. If we asked something special from our father, and he said "No," then we went to our mother and asked the same thing, we were in serious trouble. I will say to you young married people here, whatever you say to your children, be in agreement and carry it through. If you are wrong, don't be too proud to admit your mistake, other wise you lose ground with your children. My first year in Indiana, we visited a home where they had three children. The little boy was told he wouldn't get his dessert until he cleaned up his plate. However, he pouted and played with his food until it came time to serve the dessert. The mother apparently forgot what she told the boy. She gave him his dessert. My companion spoke up and said, "Why did you lie to your boy?" She said, "What do you mean, lie?" I thought my companion was getting in deep water as the woman was furious. Then my companion said, "You lied. You said he would not get anything else to eat until he cleaned up his plate. He didn't clean up his plate, but you gave him his dessert." What my companion said was very true. He was true in his endeavor to help this young mother. Be careful what you say to your children and carry it through. If you cannot carry through, then apologize. In this way, you teach your children you mean what you say and you are true to your word before God.
John the Baptist's father and mother were chosen for certain office and that was to rear the forerunner of Christ. They were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. It is easy for parents to be influenced by what other people do in the neighborhood or in the church. My father and mother were accused of being very cruel to us children. They only spoke once to us and expected immediate response. We never could say, "Wait a minute." When they spoke, it was necessary for us to obey immediately. I don't remember when this started, but it would be very difficult to start when children are five years old. Parents who have had the most success with obedient children began when the children were in their arms as babies. One father and mother had five boys; the baby was about four months old and when he cried; she took him to the kitchen and when she had examined his clothing to see nothing was hurting him, she brought him back into the meeting. He cried again. She took him out to the kitchen again and when he stopped, she brought him back into the meeting, and that time he squealed with anger. The mother took him out and spanked him. Some of the mothers in the meeting were upset because they knew the little baby didn't know what he was doing. After the meeting, one mother came to are complaining to me about what Olive did to her tiny baby. In the meeting, her four little boys sat very quietly when the parents' eyes were upon them, but if the parents weren't looking, they were just boys. I appreciated the love and discipline they had in the home, so I told the complaining mother, "When you get your child to mind you when you have ahold of her as Olive's children obey her when she looks at them, I will listen to your theory of raising children."
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Post by fixit on Jul 8, 2015 21:03:25 GMT -5
Quote - "We were taught that it's virtuous to discipline children no matter what it took." Fixit and Roselyn - your logic fallacies here are 1 - bias sampling 2 - misrepresentation
I fail to see broken F&W homes like I see outside I have never even heard of anyone disciplining a child "no matter what it took."
"Cover up", "child abuse", "CSA" What would we expect from the TMB, stories of stable and loving homes?
Bert, what I didn't add was that F&W have changed. I haven't heard the beating of children mentioned for a number of years now, and I haven't come across a concerning level of over the top discipline for a number of years. It was taught and practised a generation ago though.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 8, 2015 21:08:06 GMT -5
Quote - "We were taught that it's virtuous to discipline children no matter what it took." Fixit and Roselyn - your logic fallacies here are 1 - bias sampling 2 - misrepresentation
I fail to see broken F&W homes like I see outside I have never even heard of anyone disciplining a child "no matter what it took."
"Cover up", "child abuse", "CSA" What would we expect from the TMB, stories of stable and loving homes?
Bert you are showing your bias by saying "I fail to see broken F&W homes like I see outside" There are some homes where it would be better for everyone if that where a broken home ! As I have asked before is it better for children to live with an alcoholic father than for their parents to divorce ? It would have been better for everyone involved that my family was a broken home years before it happened. You don't seem to understand the effects of domestic violence on children Bert.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 8, 2015 21:09:37 GMT -5
Quote - "We were taught that it's virtuous to discipline children no matter what it took." Fixit and Roselyn - your logic fallacies here are 1 - bias sampling 2 - misrepresentation
I fail to see broken F&W homes like I see outside I have never even heard of anyone disciplining a child "no matter what it took."
"Cover up", "child abuse", "CSA" What would we expect from the TMB, stories of stable and loving homes?
Bert, what I didn't add was that F&W have changed. I haven't heard the beating of children mentioned for a number of years now, and I haven't come across a concerning level of over the top discipline for a number of years. It was taught and practised a generation ago though. That is exactly right Fixit, it did happen a generation ago, not now so much because people have been made aware of the effects of abuse.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2015 21:15:08 GMT -5
How about we have a thread about what children in general do today that they would never have done a scant two generations ago? No, never - it would make it look as if the world was falling apart.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 8, 2015 21:18:11 GMT -5
Domestic violence. Oh what a vicious thing. What a difficult thing to get away from (safely) for some...
You know, we often think that PTSD applies mainly to war veterans. They used to call it 'shell shock'.
But there are many victims and former victims of domestic violence who suffer from PTSD as a result of the violence off and on for the rest of their lives. I feel for all victims. Children, even in the womb (recent findings) have been shown to suffer from PTSD as a result of violence the mother may have been subjected to while baby was in utero. It breaks my heart.
There is this culture of 'cover-up' associated with it as well. And, sadly, the ones who tend to cover it up from the get go are the victims themselves. Not sure how to get past that one...
So true bitterbetty
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 8, 2015 21:19:17 GMT -5
Bert I thought you lived in Victoria ? Don't you know Ernie Barry or Chris Chandler ? What about Noel Harvey ? Broken homes are only the norm amongst secular families are they Bert ? Bert you didn't answer this question.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 8, 2015 21:20:02 GMT -5
How about we have a thread about what children in general do today that they would never have done a scant two generations ago? No, never - it would make it look as if the world was falling apart. Start one Bert !
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2015 22:13:53 GMT -5
Something for you to read Bert : Eldon Tenniswood - A Family Counseling Meeting at Santee - June 28, 1977 Love in the homelife is the backbone of the country, the church and it makes for happiness in the home. People are looking for happiness and that comes by having the love of God as the ruling power in our hearts and in our homes. There is no better influence in which to raise your family than having the love of God in the home. Mother told me when I went into the work not to tell people how to raise their children, because many of the ex-workers' children were not obedient, but we in the work have observed a few things which we like to pass on. In Judges 13, it speaks of Manoah, who, when the angel of the Lord came to them and told them they were to have a son, "prayed, 'How shall we order the child?'" The angel returned and told them what the mother was to do and how she should order her life, but nothing was said how to order the child's life. So tonight, I feel the one thing that will help you the most in rearing children is to, have the new nature from God and you can then live the love of God in the home. Love includes correction, guidance and our influence in the home. It is very difficult to have the love of God rule in our lives and home, because we all have a human nature which desires to take its own way. There are two things love always does - sacrifices and serves. When a wife reverences her husband, she will sacrifice for him and serve him. When the husband loves his wife, he will do the same for her. When people get married, they have a great love for one another and are so willing to do for one another, but after a little while, they feel the other one is not doing his part or her part. The husband sometimes demands service, and sometimes the wife demands service. When they do this, they do not want to sacrifice for one another. If a boy or girl is raised in a home where there is love and the husband is the head of the home, yet makes sacrifices and serves his family, and the mother does likewise, usually the children have a good background when they marry. If the father is cruel, the chances are that the children will take on that trait. If the mother is bossy, the children often take on that trait, especially the girls. There is no better influence under which to train up a child than for the wife to love her husband and the husband to love his wife. Sometimes the ugly things we see in children, they learn from their parents. One Saturday, two little girls about three and foul years old were quarreling in a home. The mother said to the father, "I have them all week, so it's your turn today." He took the little ones and told them about God being a living God and He sees things and hears things. He told them God heard the murmurings of the Children of Israel, and lie hears when you quarrel. He got his point over very well, because one of the little children said to him, "Daddy, does God hear when you and Mama quarrel?" I don't think my father and mother always agreed, but never did they disagree in our presence. They were quite different from one another, but they agreed to stand by one another and we children never knew there was any difference in their opinions. If we asked something special from our father, and he said "No," then we went to our mother and asked the same thing, we were in serious trouble. I will say to you young married people here, whatever you say to your children, be in agreement and carry it through. If you are wrong, don't be too proud to admit your mistake, other wise you lose ground with your children. My first year in Indiana, we visited a home where they had three children. The little boy was told he wouldn't get his dessert until he cleaned up his plate. However, he pouted and played with his food until it came time to serve the dessert. The mother apparently forgot what she told the boy. She gave him his dessert. My companion spoke up and said, "Why did you lie to your boy?" She said, "What do you mean, lie?" I thought my companion was getting in deep water as the woman was furious. Then my companion said, "You lied. You said he would not get anything else to eat until he cleaned up his plate. He didn't clean up his plate, but you gave him his dessert." What my companion said was very true. He was true in his endeavor to help this young mother. Be careful what you say to your children and carry it through. If you cannot carry through, then apologize. In this way, you teach your children you mean what you say and you are true to your word before God. John the Baptist's father and mother were chosen for certain office and that was to rear the forerunner of Christ. They were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. It is easy for parents to be influenced by what other people do in the neighborhood or in the church. My father and mother were accused of being very cruel to us children. They only spoke once to us and expected immediate response. We never could say, "Wait a minute." When they spoke, it was necessary for us to obey immediately. I don't remember when this started, but it would be very difficult to start when children are five years old. Parents who have had the most success with obedient children began when the children were in their arms as babies. One father and mother had five boys; the baby was about four months old and when he cried; she took him to the kitchen and when she had examined his clothing to see nothing was hurting him, she brought him back into the meeting. He cried again. She took him out to the kitchen again and when he stopped, she brought him back into the meeting, and that time he squealed with anger. The mother took him out and spanked him. Some of the mothers in the meeting were upset because they knew the little baby didn't know what he was doing. After the meeting, one mother came to are complaining to me about what Olive did to her tiny baby. In the meeting, her four little boys sat very quietly when the parents' eyes were upon them, but if the parents weren't looking, they were just boys. I appreciated the love and discipline they had in the home, so I told the complaining mother, "When you get your child to mind you when you have ahold of her as Olive's children obey her when she looks at them, I will listen to your theory of raising children." I like that sermon if people truly followed it there would be less trouble I believe in society today....
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Post by withlove on Jul 8, 2015 23:04:32 GMT -5
Broken homes are the exception in my church. They are almost the norm now in the wider community. So where are you safer?
Some old stats I collected:About 47% of Aust children now belong to single parent "families" One third of all Australian teachers plan on quitting their profession because of stress with students. Homeless children have doubled in the past three years Teenage binge drinking doubled in 6 years One quarter of all girls will be sexually assaulted this year 71% increase in sexual violence against children in 9 years. 30.2% of teenagers have sold, consumed or been offered drugs in the past year 9.5% of students have take cocaine in the past year. 30% increase in children on Care and Protection Orders in six years. 2008 Queensland figures reveal a 2000% (two thousand) rise in the rate of juvenile sex attacks in less than 10 years. Australian sexual assaults have increased by 20% over the past decade. 25% of Australian children under the age of 14 have had sex. 25% of Australian men who sought DNA confirmation in paternity cases discovered they are not the father. 40% rise in wives admitting to cheating on their husbands on 20 years - to 14.7%. Auburn University, Montgomery. 50% increase in shoplifting from 2008 to 2010. Australia Retail Assoc.. 30% increase in sexual activity and drinking for year 12 girls since 2002. (Australian Research Centre for Sex, Health and Society.) 50% of parents polled don’t monitor what their children watch on TV, up from 20% just 15 years earlier. Australian Research Alliance for Children and Youth, Dec 7th 2011 Nearly 1 in 5 American women claim to have been sexually assaulted, and 1 in 7 men. National Institute of Justice and the Department of Defense survey 2010/2011 27% increase in violence in Victorian school in 3 years, with 57% of teachers threatened or faced aggressive language. Galaxy Survey Jan 2012. 40% increase in domestic violence reported in Victoria in 5 years (1996-2012) Victorian Police report Feb 2012. UNH Crimes against Children Research Center (CCRC) 2009. Three out of five children were exposed to violence, abuse or a criminal victimization in the last year, including 46 percent who had been physically assaulted, 10 percent who had been maltreated by a caregiver, 6 percent who had been sexually victimized, and 10 percent who had witnessed an assault within their family. Drug addicted babies tripled in ten years. 2012 Journal American Medical Assoc.. Juvenile male assaults more than doubled in ten years (1527 in 2000-2001 to 3776 in 2009-2010) Vic Children Court stats. 25% increase in assaults against paramedics, police and firefighters in four years. 2012 Victorian Police stats. Some of this is really disturbing, but I wonder if the *reporting* of some incidents has increased (a good thing), and not necessarily the numbers of incidents themselves. -- That's 16 years, not five. But even if it was five, 40% increase doesn't shock me because of how much more society is informed about abuse now. I wonder what the age parameters are for "girls." This is a little tricky mental image. Are the numbers on college campuses higher than the numbers of girls 9 and under? Do the stats reflect the differences between now and the 70s or 60s, when drugs and sex were not exactly uncommon? Or are they just showing the difference of a few years? Just something to think about. Sometimes stats look like flimsy things a politician gathered up for campaign agendas.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2015 0:57:20 GMT -5
Quote - "We were taught that it's virtuous to discipline children no matter what it took." Fixit and Roselyn - your logic fallacies here are 1 - bias sampling 2 - misrepresentation
I fail to see broken F&W homes like I see outside I have never even heard of anyone disciplining a child "no matter what it took."
"Cover up", "child abuse", "CSA" What would we expect from the TMB, stories of stable and loving homes?
Bert, what I didn't add was that F&W have changed. I haven't heard the beating of children mentioned for a number of years now, and I haven't come across a concerning level of over the top discipline for a number of years. It was taught and practised a generation ago though. so why on earth are we focussing on and stressing on what happened in the past? all it does is cause hair pulling out frustration
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 9, 2015 1:03:57 GMT -5
Bert, what I didn't add was that F&W have changed. I haven't heard the beating of children mentioned for a number of years now, and I haven't come across a concerning level of over the top discipline for a number of years. It was taught and practised a generation ago though. so why on earth are we focussing on and stressing on what happened in the past? all it does is cause hair pulling out frustration Virgo what don't you get about the effects of abuse ? I asked you before did you see Domestic Violence in your family growing up ? You didn't answer !
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2015 1:31:58 GMT -5
so why on earth are we focussing on and stressing on what happened in the past? all it does is cause hair pulling out frustration Virgo what don't you get about the effects of abuse ? I asked you before did you see Domestic Violence in your family growing up ? You didn't answer ! no i didn't because my father had the guts to change that as he was abused as a child and never mentioned one word about it he learnt that God could take away all hurt from that and to have it put away from his life
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 9, 2015 1:34:14 GMT -5
So you really don't understand what its like for a child to see Domestic Violence or understand the effects it has.
The Effects of Domestic Violence on Children
How many children witness the abuse of their mothers? Studies show that 3-4 million children between the ages of 3-17 are at risk of exposure to domestic violence each year. U.S. government statistics say that 95% of domestic violence cases involve women victims of male partners. The children of these women often witness the domestic violence.
Witnessing can mean SEEING actual incidents of physical/and or sexual abuse. It can mean HEARING threats or fighting noises from another room. Children may also OBSERVE the aftermath of physical abuse such as blood, bruises, tears, torn clothing, and broken items. Finally children may be AWARE of the tension in the home such as their mother’s fearfulness when the abuser’s car pulls into the driveway.
What are the feelings of children who are exposed to battering? Children who are exposed to battering become fearful and anxious. They are always on guard, watching and waiting for the next event to occur. They never know what will trigger the abuse, and therefore, they never feel safe. They are always worried for themselves, their mother, and their siblings. They may feel worthless and powerless.
Children who grow up with abuse are expected to keep the family secret, sometimes not even talking to each other about the abuse. Children from abusive homes can look fine to the outside world, but inside they are in terrible pain. Their families are chaotic and crazy. They may blame themselves for the abuse thinking if they had not done or said a particular thing, the abuse would not have occurred. They may also become angry at their siblings or their mother for triggering the abuse. They may feel rage, embarrassment, and humiliation.
Children of abuse feel isolated and vulnerable. They are starved for attention, affection and approval. Because mom is struggling to survive, she is often not present for her children. Because dad is so consumed with controlling everyone, he also is not present for his children. These children become physically, emotionally and psychologically abandoned.
What behaviors do children who witness domestic violence exhibit? The emotional responses of children who witness domestic violence may include fear, guilt, shame, sleep disturbances, sadness, depression, and anger (at both the abuser for the violence and at the mother for being unable to prevent the violence).
Physical responses may include stomachaches and/or headaches, bedwetting, and loss of ability to concentrate. Some children may also experience physical or sexual abuse or neglect. Others may be injured while trying to intervene on behalf of their mother or a sibling.
The behavioral responses of children who witness domestic violence may include acting out, withdrawal, or anxiousness to please. The children may exhibit signs of anxiety and have a short attention span which may result in poor school performance and attendance. They may experience developmental delays in speech, motor or cognitive skills. They may also use violence to express themselves displaying increased aggression with peers or mother. They can become self-injuring.
What are the long-term effects on children who witness domestic violence? Whether or not children are physically abused, they often suffer emotional and psychological trauma from living in homes where their fathers abuse their mothers. Children whose mothers are abused are denied the kind of home life that fosters healthy development. Children who grow up observing their mothers being abused, especially by their fathers, grow up with a role model of intimate relationships in which one person uses intimidation and violence over the other person to get their way. Because children have a natural tendency to identify with strength, they may ally themselves with the abuser and lose respect for their seemingly helpless mother. Abusers typically play into this by putting the mother down in front of her children and telling them that their mother is “crazy” or “stupid” and that they do not have to listen to her. Seeing their mothers treated with enormous disrespect, teaches children that they can disrespect women the way their fathers do.
Most experts believe that children who are raised in abusive homes learn that violence is an effective way to resolve conflicts and problems. They may replicate the violence they witnessed as children in their teen and adult relationships and parenting experiences. Boys who witness their mothers’ abuse are more likely to batter their female partners as adults than boys raised in nonviolent homes. For girls, adolescence may result in the belief that threats and violence are the norm in relationships.
Children from violent homes have higher risks of alcohol/drug abuse, post traumatic stress disorder, and juvenile delinquency. Witnessing domestic violence is the single best predictor of juvenile delinquency and adult criminality. It is also the number one reason children run away.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2015 1:39:25 GMT -5
So you really don't understand what its like for a child to see Domestic Violence or understand the effects it has. The Effects of Domestic Violence on Children How many children witness the abuse of their mothers? Studies show that 3-4 million children between the ages of 3-17 are at risk of exposure to domestic violence each year. U.S. government statistics say that 95% of domestic violence cases involve women victims of male partners. The children of these women often witness the domestic violence. Witnessing can mean SEEING actual incidents of physical/and or sexual abuse. It can mean HEARING threats or fighting noises from another room. Children may also OBSERVE the aftermath of physical abuse such as blood, bruises, tears, torn clothing, and broken items. Finally children may be AWARE of the tension in the home such as their mother’s fearfulness when the abuser’s car pulls into the driveway. What are the feelings of children who are exposed to battering? Children who are exposed to battering become fearful and anxious. They are always on guard, watching and waiting for the next event to occur. They never know what will trigger the abuse, and therefore, they never feel safe. They are always worried for themselves, their mother, and their siblings. They may feel worthless and powerless. Children who grow up with abuse are expected to keep the family secret, sometimes not even talking to each other about the abuse. Children from abusive homes can look fine to the outside world, but inside they are in terrible pain. Their families are chaotic and crazy. They may blame themselves for the abuse thinking if they had not done or said a particular thing, the abuse would not have occurred. They may also become angry at their siblings or their mother for triggering the abuse. They may feel rage, embarrassment, and humiliation. Children of abuse feel isolated and vulnerable. They are starved for attention, affection and approval. Because mom is struggling to survive, she is often not present for her children. Because dad is so consumed with controlling everyone, he also is not present for his children. These children become physically, emotionally and psychologically abandoned. What behaviors do children who witness domestic violence exhibit? The emotional responses of children who witness domestic violence may include fear, guilt, shame, sleep disturbances, sadness, depression, and anger (at both the abuser for the violence and at the mother for being unable to prevent the violence). Physical responses may include stomachaches and/or headaches, bedwetting, and loss of ability to concentrate. Some children may also experience physical or sexual abuse or neglect. Others may be injured while trying to intervene on behalf of their mother or a sibling. The behavioral responses of children who witness domestic violence may include acting out, withdrawal, or anxiousness to please. The children may exhibit signs of anxiety and have a short attention span which may result in poor school performance and attendance. They may experience developmental delays in speech, motor or cognitive skills. They may also use violence to express themselves displaying increased aggression with peers or mother. They can become self-injuring. What are the long-term effects on children who witness domestic violence? Whether or not children are physically abused, they often suffer emotional and psychological trauma from living in homes where their fathers abuse their mothers. Children whose mothers are abused are denied the kind of home life that fosters healthy development. Children who grow up observing their mothers being abused, especially by their fathers, grow up with a role model of intimate relationships in which one person uses intimidation and violence over the other person to get their way. Because children have a natural tendency to identify with strength, they may ally themselves with the abuser and lose respect for their seemingly helpless mother. Abusers typically play into this by putting the mother down in front of her children and telling them that their mother is “crazy” or “stupid” and that they do not have to listen to her. Seeing their mothers treated with enormous disrespect, teaches children that they can disrespect women the way their fathers do. Most experts believe that children who are raised in abusive homes learn that violence is an effective way to resolve conflicts and problems. They may replicate the violence they witnessed as children in their teen and adult relationships and parenting experiences. Boys who witness their mothers’ abuse are more likely to batter their female partners as adults than boys raised in nonviolent homes. For girls, adolescence may result in the belief that threats and violence are the norm in relationships. Children from violent homes have higher risks of alcohol/drug abuse, post traumatic stress disorder, and juvenile delinquency. Witnessing domestic violence is the single best predictor of juvenile delinquency and adult criminality. It is also the number one reason children run away. so you have all those things or none of those things?
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Post by withlove on Jul 9, 2015 1:44:07 GMT -5
Virgo what don't you get about the effects of abuse ? I asked you before did you see Domestic Violence in your family growing up ? You didn't answer ! no i didn't because my father had the guts to change that as he was abused as a child and never mentioned one word about it he learnt that God could take away all hurt from that and to have it put away from his life It sounds like you are inferring that people who discuss their abuse are weak. Never talking about abuse is not the only, or healthiest path to take. If your dad had talked about it, I'm sure you would have learned valuable lessons from that too.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 9, 2015 1:47:40 GMT -5
I can relate to a lot of those things Virgo, it has been buried so deep for so long, and it is now that my mother is finally able to talk about this that I can admit to myself that I need to deal with it. There are certain situations that I react to.
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