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Post by rational on Jul 6, 2015 11:59:23 GMT -5
The problem is that a culture that does promote "not sparing the rod" tends to be dismissive of actual abuse, and does not have either the resources or the wherewithal to deal with abuse. That is why there are authorities in place to deal with criminal events. It is also why the recommended action is to report abuse to the authorities immediately. If people want to talk about repenting and forgiveness, and what they think god is going to do there is plenty of time once the report has been filed.
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Post by What Hat on Jul 6, 2015 12:12:17 GMT -5
The problem is that a culture that does promote "not sparing the rod" tends to be dismissive of actual abuse, and does not have either the resources or the wherewithal to deal with abuse. That is why there are authorities in place to deal with criminal events. It is also why the recommended action is to report abuse to the authorities immediately. If people want to talk about repenting and forgiveness, and what they think god is going to do there is plenty of time once the report has been filed. What churches can do generally is to increase abuse awareness and provide support for the victims of abuse. The 'Circle of Grace' program is an example of what can be done in terms of child education and prevention. The program was developed originally by the Archdiocese of Omaha (Catholic Church) and now used also by Reformed and Mennonite churches. mcccanada.ca/sites/mcccanada.ca/files/media/common/documents/circleofgracebrochure.pdfHere is the basic concept for children - Imagine: Raising your hands above your head and then bringing your arms slowly down keeping them outstretched. Extending your arms in front of you and then behind you embracing all of the space around you knowing that God is in this space with you. Then slowly reach down to your feet. This is your Circle of Grace. You are in it.
Because this holistic concept includes all senses, it allows children and young people to identify uncomfortable situations long before inappropriate touch may occur. The Circle of Grace program teaches children and young people to seek help from a trusted adult, reinforcing God’s presence in their real life struggles.(from link above) Program contents in later grades - Grade 4 -Internet Safety Grade 5 -Understanding the Influence of the Media on our Circle of Grace Grade 6 - Circle of Grace: Pieces of the Puzzle Safe Relationships: Putting the Puzzle Together Boundaries: Every Piece has its Border Safety PLAAN: When Something Doesn’t Fit Grade 7 - Saying “No” to Disrespect: Honoring Everyone’s Circle of Grace Grade 8 - How to be Morally Responsible in Today’s Culture Grade 9 - “ A Cloud of Witnesses” Mary and Joseph say “Yes” When the Circle is Broken Action PLAAN Grade 10 - Recognizing and Responding to Boundary Violations Grade 11 - Boundaries and Emotional Grooming Grade 12 - Real Love vs. Counterfeit Love
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Post by rational on Jul 6, 2015 14:58:57 GMT -5
That is why there are authorities in place to deal with criminal events. It is also why the recommended action is to report abuse to the authorities immediately. If people want to talk about repenting and forgiveness, and what they think god is going to do there is plenty of time once the report has been filed. What churches can do generally is to increase abuse awareness and provide support for the victims of abuse. The 'Circle of Grace' program is an example of what can be done in terms of child education and prevention. The program was developed originally by the Archdiocese of Omaha (Catholic Church) and now used also by Reformed and Mennonite churches. mcccanada.ca/sites/mcccanada.ca/files/media/common/documents/circleofgracebrochure.pdfHere is the basic concept for children - Imagine: Raising your hands above your head and then bringing your arms slowly down keeping them outstretched. Extending your arms in front of you and then behind you embracing all of the space around you knowing that God is in this space with you. Then slowly reach down to your feet. This is your Circle of Grace. You are in it.
Because this holistic concept includes all senses, it allows children and young people to identify uncomfortable situations long before inappropriate touch may occur. The Circle of Grace program teaches children and young people to seek help from a trusted adult, reinforcing God’s presence in their real life struggles.(from link above) Program contents in later grades - Grade 4 -Internet Safety Grade 5 -Understanding the Influence of the Media on our Circle of Grace Grade 6 - Circle of Grace: Pieces of the Puzzle Safe Relationships: Putting the Puzzle Together Boundaries: Every Piece has its Border Safety PLAAN: When Something Doesn’t Fit Grade 7 - Saying “No” to Disrespect: Honoring Everyone’s Circle of Grace Grade 8 - How to be Morally Responsible in Today’s Culture Grade 9 - “ A Cloud of Witnesses” Mary and Joseph say “Yes” When the Circle is Broken Action PLAAN Grade 10 - Recognizing and Responding to Boundary Violations Grade 11 - Boundaries and Emotional Grooming Grade 12 - Real Love vs. Counterfeit Love
God’s presence and assistance in difficult and confusing situations as an essential component in its K-12 curriculum.
And when god does not provide assistance? Doesn't this lead a child to believe that god is protecting them. And we know that god does not do a good job in protecting children from abuse. Perhaps I am missing something but isn't it a disservice to children to pretend that they are in a circle of grace and they will be protected? Knowing that an all powerful god is in my space would certainly not make me feel more cautious. It would make me feel like someone was protecting me. But this has been shown to be false. If someone begins to abuse a child the first thought would be "God is in my circle of grace so this must be OK because god is allowing it to happen." And there are few child abusers who will not take advantage of that training. Teaching the children from a very early age is great. Education makes the difference. Tell the child to say No! to anyone if they feel uncomfortable/threatened. There seem to be a lot of good points in the program but its goal should be the prevention of a criminal act and should be taught as such.
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Post by What Hat on Jul 6, 2015 15:13:07 GMT -5
What churches can do generally is to increase abuse awareness and provide support for the victims of abuse. The 'Circle of Grace' program is an example of what can be done in terms of child education and prevention. The program was developed originally by the Archdiocese of Omaha (Catholic Church) and now used also by Reformed and Mennonite churches. mcccanada.ca/sites/mcccanada.ca/files/media/common/documents/circleofgracebrochure.pdfHere is the basic concept for children - Imagine: Raising your hands above your head and then bringing your arms slowly down keeping them outstretched. Extending your arms in front of you and then behind you embracing all of the space around you knowing that God is in this space with you. Then slowly reach down to your feet. This is your Circle of Grace. You are in it.
Because this holistic concept includes all senses, it allows children and young people to identify uncomfortable situations long before inappropriate touch may occur. The Circle of Grace program teaches children and young people to seek help from a trusted adult, reinforcing God’s presence in their real life struggles.(from link above) Program contents in later grades - Grade 4 -Internet Safety Grade 5 -Understanding the Influence of the Media on our Circle of Grace Grade 6 - Circle of Grace: Pieces of the Puzzle Safe Relationships: Putting the Puzzle Together Boundaries: Every Piece has its Border Safety PLAAN: When Something Doesn’t Fit Grade 7 - Saying “No” to Disrespect: Honoring Everyone’s Circle of Grace Grade 8 - How to be Morally Responsible in Today’s Culture Grade 9 - “ A Cloud of Witnesses” Mary and Joseph say “Yes” When the Circle is Broken Action PLAAN Grade 10 - Recognizing and Responding to Boundary Violations Grade 11 - Boundaries and Emotional Grooming Grade 12 - Real Love vs. Counterfeit Love
God’s presence and assistance in difficult and confusing situations as an essential component in its K-12 curriculum.
And when god does not provide assistance? Doesn't this lead a child to believe that god is protecting them. And we know that god does not do a good job in protecting children from abuse. Perhaps I am missing something but isn't it a disservice to children to pretend that they are in a circle of grace and they will be protected? Knowing that an all powerful god is in my space would certainly not make me feel more cautious. It would make me feel like someone was protecting me. But this has been shown to be false. If someone begins to abuse a child the first thought would be "God is in my circle of grace so this must be OK because god is allowing it to happen." And there are few child abusers who will not take advantage of that training. Teaching the children from a very early age is great. Education makes the difference. Tell the child to say No! to anyone if they feel uncomfortable/threatened. There seem to be a lot of good points in the program but its goal should be the prevention of a criminal act and should be taught as such. I think the intent is really to show children that their bodies are their own, and they are to be protected in a very practical way using practical measures, AND that God endorses this. If you teach the measures in a Christian context and leave God out of it, that leaves it possible for a corrupt minister to circumvent the safeguards, to put themselves above or outside the measures and gain trust by "using" God, in effect.
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Post by What Hat on Jul 6, 2015 15:22:34 GMT -5
This isn't about the 'Circle of Grace' program, but discusses generally the role of the church in protecting children from abuse and neglect. Jeanette Harder also discusses limitations of the church's role, and the importance of involving police and other agencies. www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3Ig59_Hd68
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Post by rational on Jul 6, 2015 15:40:13 GMT -5
I think the intent is really to show children that their bodies are their own, and they are to be protected in a very practical way using practical measures, AND that God endorses this. If you teach the measures in a Christian context and leave God out of it, that leaves it possible for a corrupt minister to circumvent the safeguards, to put themselves above or outside the measures and gain trust by "using" God, in effect. If you designate some people as safe you have provided a loophole. If you leave god out of it the corrupt minister is just another person who cannot be trusted. As soon as you introduce god and a person who speaks for or speaks to or represents god you have created a hole in the system. This is a criminal matter - not a spiritual matter.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 7, 2015 5:28:37 GMT -5
and what was wrong with that? or is the case you didn't like being told by your parents what to do? Virgo, it has got nothing to do with me not liking being told what to do by my father ! I was not game enough to NOT do what I was told ! Its about the rules that we had to abide by that a lot of other kids in the F&W didn't, therefore I believe I was raised strict ! Virgo does this answer your question ?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 7:10:10 GMT -5
Quote - ". As soon as you introduce god and a person who speaks for or speaks to or represents god you have created a hole in the system."
True, and without God any "system" you make is purely your own opinion and open to challenge or re-interpretation. The whole point of the life of Jesus was to close the "hole" because His life was there for all to emulate - without argument.
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Post by rational on Jul 7, 2015 7:25:03 GMT -5
Quote - ". As soon as you introduce god and a person who speaks for or speaks to or represents god you have created a hole in the system." True, and without God any "system" you make is purely your own opinion and open to challenge or re-interpretation. The whole point of the life of Jesus was to close the "hole" because His life was there for all to emulate - without argument.I see. That is probably why there is such total and complete agreement among theists. God was the entity that was cited, not Jesus in the parts of the program under discussion. And you are correct, it is a criminal act and it is criminal because of the laws put in place by humans. And as it has been shown, CSA is best dealt with as a criminal act by people who care and by authorities that are put in place for that function. Can you give an example where god has stepped in and stopped the sexual abuse of a child? God may advocate stoning disobedient children or killing adulterers but fortunately we live in a society that has pulled itself up from those beliefs.
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Post by What Hat on Jul 7, 2015 9:23:35 GMT -5
I think the intent is really to show children that their bodies are their own, and they are to be protected in a very practical way using practical measures, AND that God endorses this. If you teach the measures in a Christian context and leave God out of it, that leaves it possible for a corrupt minister to circumvent the safeguards, to put themselves above or outside the measures and gain trust by "using" God, in effect. If you designate some people as safe you have provided a loophole. If you leave god out of it the corrupt minister is just another person who cannot be trusted. As soon as you introduce god and a person who speaks for or speaks to or represents god you have created a hole in the system. This is a criminal matter - not a spiritual matter. If you educate people that God is against abuse, and that God wants a "circle of grace" around a child's body, then a minister who says otherwise, or acts otherwise, is clearly in contravention of God's Will. In addition, if you have guidelines endorsed by the church which set boundaries and ensure the protection and safety of children, then parents and children are less vulnerable. In effect, you have put God on the side of the vulnerable, not on the side of the authorities who might misuse their position of trust. No you should not just leave God out of it. It's when people compartmentalize their life between their spiritual life versus their working life and their public life that inconsistencies arise, and they become double minded, and perhaps a bit lazy and negligent. I don't believe that you've actually watched the video or read the material. Give me some quotes on what you disagree with. I don't think you understand the 'safe person' concept, or the role of the church in abuse and neglect scenario's. I know your mantra is take it to the authorities, and while that is necessary it's not generally considered sufficient in a church environment. Take it to the police, and done, case closed. That is just not enough. As the courts increasingly place more vicarious liability upon churches, they are going to have to have prevention programs, criminal checks and other prevention measures in place. But beyond that, there are many things churches can do if they care. The 'Circle of Grace' people and also people like Jeanette Harder are trained professional social workers who have been working on cases of abuse and awareness and prevention for a couple of decades now and their education efforts reach millions of people. So it is worth hearing what they have to say.
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Post by snow on Jul 7, 2015 15:59:47 GMT -5
Quote - ". As soon as you introduce god and a person who speaks for or speaks to or represents god you have created a hole in the system." True, and without God any "system" you make is purely your own opinion and open to challenge or re-interpretation. The whole point of the life of Jesus was to close the "hole" because His life was there for all to emulate - without argument.God or no God the outcome is still the same, it's someone's opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 16:11:36 GMT -5
Virgo, it has got nothing to do with me not liking being told what to do by my father ! I was not game enough to NOT do what I was told ! Its about the rules that we had to abide by that a lot of other kids in the F&W didn't, therefore I believe I was raised strict ! Virgo does this answer your question ? as to what you have written my up bringing was much the same but i never found it restricting, maybe it was because i had brothers and sisters and a very large section to have fun on and didn't need other things to entertain us
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Post by rational on Jul 7, 2015 16:15:38 GMT -5
If you educate people that God is against abuse, and that God wants a "circle of grace" around a child's body, then a minister who says otherwise, or acts otherwise, is clearly in contravention of God's Will. You can educate people regarding god being against abuse but reality presents a different data set. The most positive thing is that people are becoming aware. Whether it actually reduces the number of CSA cases is still not clear. I am not saying people should compartmentalize their lives. I am simply saying that this is a criminal event and does not involve god in any real way. I actually provided a quote in my initial response. And no, I didn't watch the video. It is indeed my mantra and according to research by Finkelhor ( Crimes Against Children Research Center at the University of New Hampshire), one major reason was the increase in cases being reported to authorities (up from 25% in 1992 to 50% in 2008). And with increased education and awareness the rate of reporting continues to increase. Yes there are. Providing support for the victims is certainly a big one. Think about this. If I offered people a pyramid constructed of aged wood from the cedars of Lebanon and said that if children were inside it or imagined they were inside it there would be protection and advice available to protect them and solve problems/questions, would you promote it? God helps us know what does not belong in our Circle of Grace God desires to help us when we are hurt, scared or confused (unsafe). The Holy Spirit prompts (alerts) us that something does not belong in our Circle of Grace by giving us “a funny or uncomfortable feeling” that something is not safe. This feeling is there because God wants us to be safe. I have no problem with others believing in a paranormal being. But there is no evidence that anything in the above paragraph is true. Yet you are suggesting that this is a way to protect children from abuse. The authorities/legal system for criminals and the crimes they commit and the church to take care of spiritual needs. Police departments do not do well with the spiritual side and churches do not do well with the criminal side.
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Post by What Hat on Jul 7, 2015 16:45:04 GMT -5
Hang on, now. Think of a very young child, and now look at the complete scenario and how that might be taught to a young child.
Concept
Through the Circle of Grace program, children and youth are taught to identify and maintain appropriate physical, emotional, spiritual and sexual boundaries; recognize when boundary violations are about to occur; and demonstrate how to take action when boundary violations are threatened or violated. Along with a strong parent component, the program teaches children that God is with them at all times, especially in difficult situations.
Here is a summary of key Circle of Grace concepts:
God gives each of us a Circle of Grace where He is always "Present"
Raise your hands above your head, and then bring your outstretched arms slowly down. Extend your arms in front of you and then behind you. Embrace all of the space around you, knowing that God is in this space with you Slowly reach down to your feet. This is your Circle of Grace; you are in it.
God is "Present" because he desires a relationship with us
God is with us when we are happy and sad. God does not cause bad things to happen to us. He loves us very much. He desires to help us when we are hurt, scared or confused (unsafe). Our faith's greatest promise is not that faith gives us a perfect life, but knowing God is always "present," especially during the difficult times.
God helps us know what belongs in our Circle of Grace
Our feelings help us know about ourselves and the world around us. God helps us know what belongs in our Circle of Grace by experiencing peace, love or contentment when something or someone good comes into our Circle of Grace.
God helps us know what does not belong in our Circle of Grace
God desires to help us when we are hurt, scared or confused (unsafe). The Holy Spirit prompts (alerts) us that something does not belong in our Circle of Grace by giving us “a funny or uncomfortable feeling” that something is not safe. This feeling is there because God wants us to be safe.
God helps us know when to ask for help from someone we trust
God gives us people in our lives to help us. God wants us to talk to trusted grownups about our worries, concerns or “funny/ uncomfortable feelings” so they can help us be safe.
Note the critical final paragraph. Does that address your concern?
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 7, 2015 21:03:04 GMT -5
Virgo does this answer your question ? as to what you have written my up bringing was much the same but i never found it restricting, maybe it was because i had brothers and sisters and a very large section to have fun on and didn't need other things to entertain us So was your upbringing the same as mine as far as domestic violence goes Virgo ?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 22:52:44 GMT -5
as to what you have written my up bringing was much the same but i never found it restricting, maybe it was because i had brothers and sisters and a very large section to have fun on and didn't need other things to entertain us So was your upbringing the same as mine as far as domestic violence goes Virgo ? you jump from one to another like a flee on hot bricks i was answering to this not this
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 8, 2015 1:44:39 GMT -5
Virgo re-read the OP ! I have said so many times I had a strict professing upbringing, that looked all wonderful to the F&W and others looking on, I then went on to say that was only how it appeared & that I witnessed domestic violence as a child with-in my family. The point I was making was the double standard of my father, who ruled with strict rules yet behind the scene abused my mother.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 8, 2015 1:46:27 GMT -5
Wally what does this mean to you : "I had a very strict "professing upbringing" where domestic violence was the norm, as long as it all looked ok on the outside and everyone kept quiet it was ok ! But as a child growing up in this environment it was NOT ok. " What does this mean to you Virgo ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 8, 2015 2:02:34 GMT -5
For Bert:
The Effects of Domestic Violence on Children
How many children witness the abuse of their mothers? Studies show that 3-4 million children between the ages of 3-17 are at risk of exposure to domestic violence each year. U.S. government statistics say that 95% of domestic violence cases involve women victims of male partners. The children of these women often witness the domestic violence.
Witnessing can mean SEEING actual incidents of physical/and or sexual abuse. It can mean HEARING threats or fighting noises from another room. Children may also OBSERVE the aftermath of physical abuse such as blood, bruises, tears, torn clothing, and broken items. Finally children may be AWARE of the tension in the home such as their mother’s fearfulness when the abuser’s car pulls into the driveway.
What are the feelings of children who are exposed to battering? Children who are exposed to battering become fearful and anxious. They are always on guard, watching and waiting for the next event to occur. They never know what will trigger the abuse, and therefore, they never feel safe. They are always worried for themselves, their mother, and their siblings. They may feel worthless and powerless.
Children who grow up with abuse are expected to keep the family secret, sometimes not even talking to each other about the abuse. Children from abusive homes can look fine to the outside world, but inside they are in terrible pain. Their families are chaotic and crazy. They may blame themselves for the abuse thinking if they had not done or said a particular thing, the abuse would not have occurred. They may also become angry at their siblings or their mother for triggering the abuse. They may feel rage, embarrassment, and humiliation.
Children of abuse feel isolated and vulnerable. They are starved for attention, affection and approval. Because mom is struggling to survive, she is often not present for her children. Because dad is so consumed with controlling everyone, he also is not present for his children. These children become physically, emotionally and psychologically abandoned.
What behaviors do children who witness domestic violence exhibit? The emotional responses of children who witness domestic violence may include fear, guilt, shame, sleep disturbances, sadness, depression, and anger (at both the abuser for the violence and at the mother for being unable to prevent the violence).
Physical responses may include stomachaches and/or headaches, bedwetting, and loss of ability to concentrate. Some children may also experience physical or sexual abuse or neglect. Others may be injured while trying to intervene on behalf of their mother or a sibling.
The behavioral responses of children who witness domestic violence may include acting out, withdrawal, or anxiousness to please. The children may exhibit signs of anxiety and have a short attention span which may result in poor school performance and attendance. They may experience developmental delays in speech, motor or cognitive skills. They may also use violence to express themselves displaying increased aggression with peers or mother. They can become self-injuring.
What are the long-term effects on children who witness domestic violence? Whether or not children are physically abused, they often suffer emotional and psychological trauma from living in homes where their fathers abuse their mothers. Children whose mothers are abused are denied the kind of home life that fosters healthy development. Children who grow up observing their mothers being abused, especially by their fathers, grow up with a role model of intimate relationships in which one person uses intimidation and violence over the other person to get their way. Because children have a natural tendency to identify with strength, they may ally themselves with the abuser and lose respect for their seemingly helpless mother. Abusers typically play into this by putting the mother down in front of her children and telling them that their mother is “crazy” or “stupid” and that they do not have to listen to her. Seeing their mothers treated with enormous disrespect, teaches children that they can disrespect women the way their fathers do.
Most experts believe that children who are raised in abusive homes learn that violence is an effective way to resolve conflicts and problems. They may replicate the violence they witnessed as children in their teen and adult relationships and parenting experiences. Boys who witness their mothers’ abuse are more likely to batter their female partners as adults than boys raised in nonviolent homes. For girls, adolescence may result in the belief that threats and violence are the norm in relationships.
Children from violent homes have higher risks of alcohol/drug abuse, post traumatic stress disorder, and juvenile delinquency. Witnessing domestic violence is the single best predictor of juvenile delinquency and adult criminality. It is also the number one reason children run away.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2015 2:07:31 GMT -5
Roselyn, not sure why you are posting this. All this sad stuff is well understood, and readily publicized.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 8, 2015 2:25:55 GMT -5
Roselyn, not sure why you are posting this. All this sad stuff is well understood, and readily publicized. Go back and read your post Bert ! You wanted me to define Domestic Violence. Which I have, this is what I am talking about Bert all this "sad stuff" that some of us witnessed as children. My question was how is this being dealt with today by the F&W ? Is it treated the same as CSA ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 8, 2015 2:26:45 GMT -5
It was asked here what do we do with cases of domestic violence. Firstly, "domestic violence" wasn't defined. Secondly, it is the duty of any person in the church to attend to personal issues they might have with someone deemed to be offending. Your post .
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2015 2:36:01 GMT -5
Quote - "My question was how is this being dealt with today by the F&W ? Is it treated the same as CSA?"
Frankly I don't know because I don't know of any cases of violence. But, like the puppy story, if I knew someone was mistreating someone else in the church, and no-one else had done anything about it, I would feel compelled to do something myself. It's your biblical duty, actually.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 8, 2015 3:13:23 GMT -5
Quote - "My question was how is this being dealt with today by the F&W ? Is it treated the same as CSA?" Frankly I don't know because I don't know of any cases of violence. But, like the puppy story, if I knew someone was mistreating someone else in the church, and no-one else had done anything about it, I would feel compelled to do something myself. It's your biblical duty, actually. Bert are you saying you are not aware/suspect of ANY cases of domestic violence amongst the F&W ? All I can say is I wish you were around 40 years ago Bert ! The thing is its easy to say if I knew about it I would do something, maybe Mr Review can fill us in with his opinion on domestic violence and what he feels the F&W role is in helping abused women ?
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Post by rational on Jul 8, 2015 8:44:06 GMT -5
Hang on, now. Think of a very young child, and now look at the complete scenario and how that might be taught to a young child.
God helps us know when to ask for help from someone we trust
God gives us people in our lives to help us. God wants us to talk to trusted grownups about our worries, concerns or “funny/ uncomfortable feelings” so they can help us be safe.
Note the critical final paragraph. Does that address your concern? Noted. The claim is that god gives children people in their lives to help them. What sign of certification/verification does god provide so the children know which ones have been vetted and found to be OK and which people in their lives are actually child molesters? This teaches and claims that god wants children to talk to trusted adults. Perhaps like a kindly priest that the child has known all their life. Or Uncle Bob that lives in the apartment upstairs and watches the children when Mom and Dad are out. Uncle Bob is Mom's favorite brother. And he brings presents. You are convincing children that god will speak to them and guide them to do the safe thing when zero evidence exists to prove there even is a god and zero evidence that s/he will tell children who they can and cannot trust or guide them to do the safe thing. God does not have a great record of protecting children from any kind of abuse. Teaching children otherwise might fit the needs of the parents to have children believe in a kind and protective god god that will guide them but really, this is a system where, from the child's point of view, people are to be trusted because god is sending child people they can trust. As an atheist, this is a difficult stand to take. I know this can be seen as 'hating' god or trying to convert people to atheism (whatever that might be). But I have strong feelings about teaching children to trust an unproven entity to send them "trusted" people. Parents, priests, ministers, workers, relatives, etc. are 'trusted" and we know that this is often the root of the problem.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2015 9:50:14 GMT -5
No I am not aware of any child abuse by F&W parents. That's not the same as saying I don't believe it is there. I just don't know - never went looking for it.
Most parents and children I know seem to have happy and normal lives. Certainly a lot better, on the whole, than those in secular families where broken homes have become the norm.
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Post by bella on Jul 8, 2015 9:55:07 GMT -5
I wholly concur with Roselyn that domestic violence within the F & W has been largely 'swept under the mat' and most have turned a blind eye. Same as in any other community really. Sad though that in our Christian community we haven't had the tools and leadership to effectively stop the practices and help those who are vulnerable and hurt.
Anecdotally, I have to agree also that those who have had what would seem to be the 'strictest' & 'straightest', of outwardly appearances do seem to have more of these awful incidences of domestic violence.
As an adult I look back with shame at some things I was witness too as a young teenager and wish that i had had the gumption then to speak up !
This is the one that plays on my mind the most ,
* The man who routinely took his beautiful little daughter from the age of approx 10 months out of the Sunday morning fellowship and belted her so hard we would hear her screams from within the meeting room. By the end of the meeting those darling little legs would have the most awful awful bruises ever. ( His wife a few years later turned up on my Mums doorstep fearing for her life, and poured out the shocking violence she had been suffering for years).
Why would it be that my parents or the other adults never said a word about it ? Although there were not very many worker visits to our little part of rural Australia, and I can't remember for sure, there would have been sometimes a worker in our meeting also and they too would have been witness to this.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2015 9:59:44 GMT -5
Now how typical do you think this story is? Exceptions are used on the TMB to attempt to define the whole.
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