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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2015 7:50:43 GMT -5
There is no proof or evidence of a continuous unbroken line; however, there was a reestablishment / revival by William Irvine and his band of followers based on the model/pattern Jesus established. IMO.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2015 8:45:49 GMT -5
There is no proof or evidence of a continuous unbroken line; however, there was a reestablishment / revival by William Irvine and his band of followers based on the model Jesus established. IMO. Possibly. There have been many times in the Bible when God's people had fallen away, and He sent his messengers to stir them up and bring them back into fellowship. In the days of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Nehemiah and many others, the people had got pretty far away from God. At one time Elijah thought he was the only one left until God told him there were still seven thousand left who hadn't bowed to the enemy. We don't know what God has done on the earth since the new testament was written, but I don't believe He has been idle. There have been many people down through the ages who have been instrumental in pointing people to the scriptures but that doesn't mean they 'started the way'.
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Post by CherieKropp on May 5, 2015 8:58:11 GMT -5
Felicity are you aware of William Irvine & Edward Cooney ? Yes. I believe that the ministry as I know it today was established on earth by Jesus, and there is absolutely nothing you can tell me about William Irvine, Edward Cooney, John Long or anyone else that will convince me differently. I am aware that there are many who do not share this belief, and I'm sure it's been argued on this forum before, so it's pointless to go there again. How do you view the actions of the three men you named above? What was their role in relationship to the friends and workers fellowship?
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2015 9:12:50 GMT -5
There is no proof or evidence of a continuous unbroken line; however, there was a reestablishment / revival by William Irvine and his band of followers based on the model Jesus established. IMO. Possibly. There have been many times in the Bible when God's people had fallen away, and He sent his messengers to stir them up and bring them back into fellowship. In the days of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Nehemiah and many others, the people had got pretty far away from God. At one time Elijah thought he was the only one left until God told him there were still seven thousand left who hadn't bowed to the enemy. We don't know what God has done on the earth since the new testament was written, but I don't believe He has been idle. There have been many people down through the ages who have been instrumental in pointing people to the scriptures but that doesn't mean they 'started the way'. I thought the discussion was about the start of the fellowship, not the start of the way. there is no confusion about the way and who started it.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2015 9:19:51 GMT -5
Possibly. There have been many times in the Bible when God's people had fallen away, and He sent his messengers to stir them up and bring them back into fellowship. In the days of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Nehemiah and many others, the people had got pretty far away from God. At one time Elijah thought he was the only one left until God told him there were still seven thousand left who hadn't bowed to the enemy. We don't know what God has done on the earth since the new testament was written, but I don't believe He has been idle. There have been many people down through the ages who have been instrumental in pointing people to the scriptures but that doesn't mean they 'started the way'. I thought the discussion was about the start of the fellowship, not the start of the way. there is no confusion about the way and who started it. You can change my last sentence to "that doesn't mean they 'started the fellowship' " if that makes you feel better
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2015 9:40:29 GMT -5
I thought the discussion was about the start of the fellowship, not the start of the way. there is no confusion about the way and who started it. You can change my last sentence to "that doesn't mean they 'started the fellowship' " if that makes you feel better Yes it makes me feel better based on my experience on here, probably would stop some jumping on you for not making that clear.
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Post by rational on May 5, 2015 11:22:40 GMT -5
Yes Felicity, the are people in our meeting who were RC and they were told not to read the Bible also. They just read the catacism but i don't know what that is. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a summary of the religious doctrine of the church. If you read it you will know their beliefs.
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Post by Greg on May 5, 2015 18:22:07 GMT -5
There is no proof or evidence of a continuous unbroken line; however, there was a reestablishment / revival by William Irvine and his band of followers based on the model/pattern Jesus established. IMO. Certain degrees of variance exist. IMO.
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Post by Roselyn T on May 5, 2015 19:48:05 GMT -5
So where is the line in history from Jesus to William Irvine ? Who were the workers before Irvine? The workers before William Irvine were the Faith Mission workers.... And who were the workers before the Faith Mission workers.... the Vaudois/Waldenses..... Who were the workers before Vaudois/Waldenses.... Paul and his fellow-workers were workers II Cor. 6:1Interestingly, in this book there is a picture of all the Faith Mission pilgrims as of 1892, standing in four rows like a worker picture, and at their feet is a banner that says "holiness to the Lord". The Holiness Movement is simply the idea that you are redeemed when you are born again in Christ, but you are not sanctified at that point; you are not yet holy. Some denominations within the Holiness Movement speak of a second rebirth when you are sanctified, but I believe that with the friends you spend your life working toward being sanctified. This idea was quite common in Methodist circles of the late 19th century. William Irvine was steeped in it, because he attended Keswick Convention which is seen as a center of the Holiness Movement. Anyway, the pedigree is actually from the Moravian Church which dates back to 1457. John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, but who was actually an Anglican, was the first to spread the Holiness doctrine widely in his sermons and later his book titled "Christian Perfection". "Christian Perfection" is the same idea as Holiness, that you are "born again" once but then become perfected in Christ over time. I have read Wesley's book, but his distinction between perfected Christians who don't sin, but do make mistakes, versus unperfected Christians who aren't quite there yet, is quite a fine line if you ask me. But the essential idea of spiritual progress throughout life is a compelling one, all the same. So, this is from wiki - It was on the voyage to the colonies that the Wesleys first came into contact with Moravian settlers. Wesley was influenced by their deep faith and spirituality rooted in pietism. At one point in the voyage a storm came up and broke the mast off the ship. While the English panicked, the Moravians calmly sang hymns and prayed. This experience led Wesley to believe that the Moravians possessed an inner strength which he lacked.[8] The deeply personal religion that the Moravian pietists practiced heavily influenced Wesley's theology of Methodism.[9] And then the Moravian church was an offshoot of Catholicism, but almost a pre-Reformation one. However, some people believe the Moravian church, I'll quote wiki, "is reputed to have received the Apostolic Succession through the Waldensian Church, but the historicity of this is disputed." I personally doubt that, but most ideas in Christianity, like that of Holiness, have very deep roots. Anyway, potentially the lineage is: Vaudois/Waldensian -> Moravian -> Wesley -> Holiness -> Faith Mission -> Friends & workers I would have voted for 1897 William Irvine founder date UNTIL a) I read John Long's journal and b) learned more on the socio-historical background that informed the decision making of Irvine and the other preachers. That background included information on the Faith Mission, the Awakening in Scotland, various independent preaching movements, as well as the Holiness doctrine. Before that I couldn't see the forest for the trees. Now I see Irvine, Long and the other first workers as having separated from a much larger preaching movement that was going on in Ireland and Scotland in the late 19th century, one which culminated in schism because the main denominations would not accept the Holiness doctrine. The f&w were not the only ones going through this transformation. Here is a list of other Holiness denominations in the UK and America that began during or around that time. As a "late date" fan at the present time, that would certainly make Irvine the first leader/ overseer/ head worker of the movement. Founder? I've just never liked that word in connection with the f&w movement. Nathan's selection of posts in the early part of this thread shed quite a bit of light on the early days of the movement, IMO. Now, for Nathan's benefit, Holiness began with John Wesley's work and preaching on Christian Perfection, and Wesley's ideas in that area were strongly influenced in that area by the Moravian church which is a movement that was influenced by the Waldensians/ Vaudois. Nathan I wonder if felicity agrees with you !
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Post by Roselyn T on May 5, 2015 19:51:50 GMT -5
So where is the line in history from Jesus to William Irvine ? Who were the workers before Irvine? Like I said, it's pointless to go there again. So the workers before Irvine were not recorded anywhere ? The attitude of its pointless to go there again in my opinion is just the typical non-answer of the F&W who don't want to think beyond what the workers have told them. " Just believe don't question ".
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Post by Roselyn T on May 5, 2015 19:54:04 GMT -5
So Felicity do you believe the F&W are the only "Right Way " Can you show me another one? Why are there Hymns in the current hymn book that were written by people from "other churches" if the F&w are the only right way Felicity ? Surely if the are so right and every other church is wrong they can write their own hymns.... why use other churches hymns ?
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 8:03:13 GMT -5
I think the TX issue shows that powerful elders have a sway on certain workers. Heck, if I gave 10 million dollars to say Johns Hopkins university, I could get a building named after me. It is the same with many or most groups and "the truth" is no exception. After all, money is needed to run most things. Conventions are expensive and rich saints who are generous with their money have a lot of influence in the Kingdom.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 8:22:08 GMT -5
I think the TX issue shows that powerful elders have a sway on certain workers. Heck, if I gave 10 million dollars to say Johns Hopkins university, I could get a building named after me. It is the same with many or most groups and "the truth" is no exception. After all, money is needed to run most things. Conventions are expensive and rich saints who are generous with their money have a lot of influence in the Kingdom. That is complete and utter rubbish. It has never been possible to buy your way into heaven, and it never will be. It's not material riches but spiritual riches that count in the kingdom of God. It's completely false to suggest that the people with more money have more influence. They may have more opportunities to be useful, but that doesn't give them influence. The OP has nothing whatsoever to do with money, it's about a man who tried to force his own theories onto people who didn't find them acceptable or in line with the scriptures. Actually, your statement "if I gave 10 million dollars to say Johns Hopkins university, I could get a building named after me" is probably true, I wouldn't know, but the rest is rubbish
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Post by rational on May 6, 2015 8:36:32 GMT -5
Heck, if I gave 10 million dollars to say Johns Hopkins university, I could get a building named after me. You would get a "Thank you" perhaps. Maybe a plaque in some obscure location. If you really want a building you will have to up your game!
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Post by rational on May 6, 2015 8:43:46 GMT -5
That is complete and utter rubbish. It has never been possible to buy your way into heaven, and it never will be. It's not material riches but spiritual riches that count in the kingdom of God. I think he was referring to how the workers viewed/treated the individuals who are able to donate more than the average. I think you might be in erroron this point.Think this through. You are actually explaining how they have nore influence. I agree with this. If a person disagrees with the doctrine of the church they need to start a new church. Follow the lead of the thousands who thought they had a better revelation. Starting a religion is also a way to make a lot of money!
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 9:12:16 GMT -5
That is complete and utter rubbish. It has never been possible to buy your way into heaven, and it never will be. It's not material riches but spiritual riches that count in the kingdom of God. I think he was referring to how the workers viewed/treated the individuals who are able to donate more than the average. I think you might be in erroron this point.Think this through. You are actually explaining how they have nore influence. Ok, it would have been more accurate to say they have "different opportunities to be useful", rather than more. People who share spiritual riches are more likely to be influential than people who share material wealth.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 10:06:47 GMT -5
Can you show me another one? Why are there Hymns in the current hymn book that were written by people from "other churches" if the F&w are the only right way Felicity ? Surely if the are so right and every other church is wrong they can write their own hymns.... why use other churches hymns ? It's possible to get the words right without having the actions right! Jesus even said to do as the Pharisees say, but not as they do - "All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not." There are some lovely hymns in the book that were written by people from other churches. I don't know much about them, or the experiences that prompted them to write those words, so I'm not making any assessment on their lives - just pointing out that there's no reason not to use their words. The majority of hymns in the current book were written by friends and/or workers.
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Post by mdm on May 6, 2015 11:12:30 GMT -5
I think the TX issue shows that powerful elders have a sway on certain workers. Heck, if I gave 10 million dollars to say Johns Hopkins university, I could get a building named after me. It is the same with many or most groups and "the truth" is no exception. After all, money is needed to run most things. Conventions are expensive and rich saints who are generous with their money have a lot of influence in the Kingdom. That is complete and utter rubbish. It has never been possible to buy your way into heaven, and it never will be. It's not material riches but spiritual riches that count in the kingdom of God. It's completely false to suggest that the people with more money have more influence. They may have more opportunities to be useful, but that doesn't give them influence. The OP has nothing whatsoever to do with money, it's about a man who tried to force his own theories onto people who didn't find them acceptable or in line with the scriptures. Actually, your statement "if I gave 10 million dollars to say Johns Hopkins university, I could get a building named after me" is probably true, I wouldn't know, but the rest is rubbish I would have probably agreed with you two years ago - that is while I was not aware of any issues in the fellowship. However, when we brought up the subject of immorality and sexual abuse being covered up and ignored by the ministry, a worker who himself is grieved about it told us that one reason these things are not dealt with is money - some offenders' families contribute large sums of money to the ministry.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 11:39:10 GMT -5
a worker who himself is grieved about it told us that one reason these things are not dealt with is money - some offenders' families contribute large sums of money to the ministry. That was an outrageous thing to say. Either he doesn't know what he's talking about, or there's something badly wrong in his area. It certainly isn't a universal practice.
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Post by mdm on May 6, 2015 11:42:11 GMT -5
Or, one member of this board has told me how she remembers when certain things were not allowed until children of prominent members (wealthy friends, convention owners) started doing them. Or, some friends of ours, very faithful professing people, have told us how soon after they professed a person in their meeting was openly hateful toward them. The workers were aware of it, but didn't do much about it. This was so discouraging to our friends that the husband stopped taking part in meetings and finally they moved away. I don't think that it was a coincidence that the lady who was being hateful toward them was a convention owner. Why else would the workers not have intervened both for the sake of her own soul and for the sake of the newly professed couple?
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Post by mdm on May 6, 2015 11:45:05 GMT -5
a worker who himself is grieved about it told us that one reason these things are not dealt with is money - some offenders' families contribute large sums of money to the ministry. That was an outrageous thing to say. Either he doesn't know what he's talking about, or there's something badly wrong in his area. It certainly isn't a universal practice. No, but he is both informed AND honest. Of course, I understand why you would refuse to believe that something like that is possible.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 11:55:29 GMT -5
That was an outrageous thing to say. Either he doesn't know what he's talking about, or there's something badly wrong in his area. It certainly isn't a universal practice. No, but he is both informed AND honest. Of course, I understand why you would refuse to believe that something like that is possible. No, I'm not refusing to believe something like that is possible, but I know a lot of workers in various countries and I've never met any with an attitude like that. I'm 100% positive, and also very thankful, that it's not the prevailing attitude in the country where I live. There were terrible things going on in Shiloh too, it must have taken great faith for Hannah to leave it in God's hands, and to leave Samuel there, but God dealt with the unfaithful in His own time and way. Like I mentioned to someone else earlier, Judas was a 'rotten apple' too, but it didn't invalidate the work the rest of the disciples were doing. I think it's sad sometimes when people blame the workers as a whole when they find another 'Judas' among them, instead of blaming the real 'worker of iniquity' - the devil.
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Post by mdm on May 6, 2015 11:55:47 GMT -5
Why are there Hymns in the current hymn book that were written by people from "other churches" if the F&w are the only right way Felicity ? Surely if the are so right and every other church is wrong they can write their own hymns.... why use other churches hymns ? It's possible to get the words right without having the actions right! Jesus even said to do as the Pharisees say, but not as they do - "All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not." I agree. Do you think it is important to hold the workers responsible to live what they preach as well? And what are we to conclude when we realize that some do not? Does this invalidate the whole church, or are only other churches invalidated if some of their preachers don't live what they preach? Or do all churches in fact have both good and bad in them to some degree?There are some lovely hymns in the book that were written by people from other churches. I don't know much about them, or the experiences that prompted them to write those words, so I'm not making any assessment on their lives - just pointing out that there's no reason not to use their words. If we can sing their songs, then there is no reason to not listen to sermons of other preachers or read books written by other Christians either, since all of them convey their beliefs, thoughts and feelings. Right?
The majority of hymns in the current book were written by friends and/or workers.
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Post by mdm on May 6, 2015 12:01:12 GMT -5
No, but he is both informed AND honest. Of course, I understand why you would refuse to believe that something like that is possible. No, I'm not refusing to believe something like that is possible, but I know a lot of workers in various countries and I've never met any with an attitude like that. I'm 100% positive, and also very thankful, that it's not the prevailing attitude in the country where I live. There were terrible things going on in Shiloh too, it must have taken great faith for Hannah to leave it in God's hands, and to leave Samuel there, but God dealt with the unfaithful in His own time and way. Like I mentioned to someone else earlier, Judas was a 'rotten apple' too, but it didn't invalidate the work the rest of the disciples were doing. I think it's sad sometimes when people blame the workers as a whole when they find another 'Judas' among them, instead of blaming the real 'worker of iniquity' - the devil. I don't doubt that you have never heard anything like what I am reporting here. I hadn't either until I started asking questions. Of course, those who are informed AND honest have to be careful who they open up to, because they know that open discussion of such things can get them dismissed from the ministry. Much like it happened to Steve Shultz in Australia recently.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 12:15:23 GMT -5
I agree. Do you think it is important to hold the workers responsible to live what they preach as well? And what are we to conclude when we realize that some do not? Does this invalidate the whole church, or are only other churches invalidated if some of their preachers don't live what they preach? Or do all churches in fact have both good and bad in them to some degree?If we can sing their songs, then there is no reason to not listen to sermons of other preachers or read books written by other Christians either, since all of them convey their beliefs, thoughts and feelings. Right?
It's important for workers to hold themselves responsible to live what they preach, just as we are responsible to live up to our own words. We'll always be able to see faults in others, that doesn't in any way invalidate those who are keeping true. The hymns in our book have been carefully selected, and the sentiments expressed are in line with the scriptures. This wouldn't be the case for all hymns that have been written for other churches, and the same would apply to their books, sermons and preachers. Some of their words may be good and acceptable, but that doesn't mean they all are. I was given a book written by a minister of another church which contained some interesting and Biblically accurate material but it also contained a lot of contradictions to the scriptures, so I disposed of it in case my kids would assume they could trust it because it was on a shelf in our home.
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Post by mdm on May 6, 2015 12:34:03 GMT -5
It's important for workers to hold themselves responsible to live what they preach, just as we are responsible to live up to our own words. We'll always be able to see faults in others, that doesn't in any way invalidate those who are keeping true. So it is not important for preachers' actions and lives to line up with what they preach and they are only accountable to themselves? Then why do the workers so often talk about 'false' preachers and how they don't live what they preach? Heard it even at our last convention. Or is it only important when the goal is to discredit other churches, but not when it comes to the workers who don't live what they preach??? Sorry, I just don't get the inconsistency. In fact, I find it 'outrageous.'The hymns in our book have been carefully selected, and the sentiments expressed are in line with the scriptures. This wouldn't be the case for all hymns that have been written for other churches, and the same would apply to their books, sermons and preachers. Some of their words may be good and acceptable, but that doesn't mean they all are. I was given a book by a minister of another church which contained some interesting and Biblically accurate material but it also contained a lot of contradictions to the scriptures, so I disposed of it in case my kids would assume they could trust it because it was on a shelf in our home. The hymns have been carefully selected by the workers, therefore they are 'safe.' But any other written material out there has not been 'carefully selected,' therefore it may not be wholesome. I see. So, even if Satan wrote a hymn, as long as the sentiments line up with the scriptures, the hymn may be sung as long as it's words are carefully examined and selected. It's not who wrote it, but who approved it that's important.
I totally get the need to keep our home clean from anything that may affect our children negatively. Can you imagine how shocked I was that certain 'material' of questionable quality has repeatedly been sent into my home by the ministry - namely workers known to have engaged in immorality and sexual abuse???!!! 'Outrageous.'
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 12:55:32 GMT -5
This man got into a lot of hot water during the 08 campaign. But he directs a meeting hymn!
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 13:06:26 GMT -5
It's important for workers to hold themselves responsible to live what they preach, just as we are responsible to live up to our own words. We'll always be able to see faults in others, that doesn't in any way invalidate those who are keeping true. So it is not important for preachers' actions and lives to line up with what they preach and they are only accountable to themselves? Then why do the workers so often talk about 'false' preachers and how they don't live what they preach? Heard it even at our last convention. Or is it only important when the goal is to discredit other churches, but not when it comes to the workers who don't live what they preach??? Sorry, I just don't get the inconsistency. In fact, I find it 'outrageous.'The hymns in our book have been carefully selected, and the sentiments expressed are in line with the scriptures. This wouldn't be the case for all hymns that have been written for other churches, and the same would apply to their books, sermons and preachers. Some of their words may be good and acceptable, but that doesn't mean they all are. I was given a book by a minister of another church which contained some interesting and Biblically accurate material but it also contained a lot of contradictions to the scriptures, so I disposed of it in case my kids would assume they could trust it because it was on a shelf in our home. The hymns have been carefully selected by the workers, therefore they are 'safe.' But any other written material out there has not been 'carefully selected,' therefore it may not be wholesome. I see. So, even if Satan wrote a hymn, as long as the sentiments line up with the scriptures, the hymn may be sung as long as it's words are carefully examined and selected. It's not who wrote it, but who approved it that's important.
I totally get the need to keep our home clean from anything that may affect our children negatively. Can you imagine how shocked I was that certain 'material' of questionable quality has repeatedly been sent into my home by the ministry - namely workers known to have engaged in immorality and sexual abuse???!!! 'Outrageous.'Of course it's important for preachers' actions and lives to line up with what they preach. I don't know how you could have thought I was saying it wasn't. They are accountable to God first and foremost. We can't judge them all by the actions of a few who have "made shipwreck" and have themselves become false preachers by not meaning what they say. Regarding the selection of the hymns, there was input from the friends as well as the workers. I was not in any way suggesting that any material we read has to be passed through the workers first. We have to be aware of the possibility that anything we're reading or listening to may not be wholesome, but if we have any spiritual wisdom ourselves we should be able to tell whether what we're listening to is 'safe' or not. It's not about the approval of man, but the approval of God. I have never had anyone in my home that is known to have engaged in sexual abuse. I would find that outrageous and unacceptable too.
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