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Post by Roselyn T on May 4, 2015 7:15:36 GMT -5
Sydney Holt God has planned a person must hear through one sent by God who is living Truth as well as speaking Truth. We are God's chosen people. Our main objectives are to serve the workers, attend gospel meetings and conventions and honor The Truth. [Los Angeles CA Special Meeting, 3/10/85] REF #158 So do you agree with this Review ? Just recently we have seen how incomplete notes muddied the waters on this forum. I am quite unable to make meaningful comments on what you have posted. I don't trust them as accurate full and complete! Post full notes that can be verified as accurate and I'll try. How typical ! Rather than answer with a yes or no you skirt around the issue ! So after all that Review what is the doctrine of Jesus ?
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Post by Roselyn T on May 4, 2015 7:18:04 GMT -5
I am somewhat surprised by Lyle's stance in this. Of course, most of us don't know all the details. But I would like to think that our Fellowship is inclusive with the love and grace shown by Christ, to embrace all who profess belief in Christ. Who knows, in time Brandon may come to value the practical benefits of our form of worship (in the home) and ministry. And in the process, Brandon may stimulate some others to think and search scripture, so as to discover their safety is in Christ alone, not in simply belonging to any church, group or creed. May God's wisdom overrule, admin From the information given on this thread, I can't see what else he could have done. It reminds me of the story of a mother watching her son marching in a parade - her comment was "They're all out of step except my Johnny". One man is clearly marching to a different tune to the rest, and whichever side you believe to be in the right, the overall effect wasn't bringing harmony. Anyone who would bring a recording device into a convention meeting, for the purpose of recording his own testimony, was obviously fully aware that he was planning to say something that wasn't in line with the beliefs of the rest of the congregation, and was expecting to be challenged about it afterwards. I'd be interested to know what you mean by the term "all who profess belief in Christ"? - People who say they believe, or people who are actually living as Jesus taught? I've met lots of people who profess to believe in Christ, but I've never met any other group of people who is actively trying to follow all the teachings of Jesus. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him". Thank you Felicity you have just confirmed with your statement "I've met lots of people who profess to believe in Christ, but I've never met any other group of people who is actively trying to follow all the teachings of Jesus. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him". [/quote] exactly what dmmg was saying !
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 7:22:27 GMT -5
Quote - "One must elevate their Master above their group."
According to this logic you would be perfectly fine with the Mormons? They believe that Jesus gave up the New Testament as a dead loss (like most churches do) and began preaching the Old Testament in the Americas - and a ten percent tithe for his troubles. This seems like the worship of a lie. How DO people "worship" violently different gods?
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 7:32:51 GMT -5
Seems like it is much easier to be kicked out for wrong doctrine than it is for CSA until the CSA has been reported to authorities!
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 7:42:10 GMT -5
I know of one woman, brought up Buddhist, felt a hunger and thirst for righteousness and began searching for that in Christianity. As a teenager she went amongst many churches. Didn't know or hardly knew what she was looking for and had many disappointments. Finally someone took her to a Gospel meeting. She knew she had found it! It was no Christ plus a 2x2 ministry! It was Christ and Christ alone! Much later she came to understand of the ministry and how it operated ***** People also have been disappointed in the meetings. And people have found Christ in the fellowship meetings also. One must elevate their Master above their group. A very interesting thought, it is all about Jesus- All for Jesus. All our springs arise in Jesus. Jesus now and Jesus ever. Can Jesus be found in every church gathering, if they gather in His name?
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 8:03:23 GMT -5
I'd be interested to know what you mean by the term "all who profess belief in Christ"? - People who say they believe, or people who are actually living as Jesus taught? I've met lots of people who profess to believe in Christ, but I've never met any other group of people who is actively trying to follow all the teachings of Jesus. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him". Thank you Felicity you have just confirmed with your statement "I've met lots of people who profess to believe in Christ, but I've never met any other group of people who is actively trying to follow all the teachings of Jesus. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him". I didn't say they don't exist, I just said I've never met anyone like that. My experience covers a very small geographical area. That's why I asked the question, I was wondering what Admin's experience is.
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Post by rational on May 4, 2015 8:51:40 GMT -5
...Is there any precedent for this? I can't remember. I had heard the black stocking change came when a sister worker refused to wear them. She had been to a city - New York City perhaps - and seen prostitutes wearing them. She refused to be attired the same as them in that manner. Others followed her decision. Grass roots movements? Change from the bottom up is always more effective than change from the top down.
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Post by rational on May 4, 2015 8:55:04 GMT -5
Mary said: God lead me out to be more correct.The only way to God, is to follow Jesus and his teachings. I find it interesting that god and Jesus generally lead people into situations where they are more comfortable or where they would rather be.
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Post by mdm on May 4, 2015 11:20:33 GMT -5
While I think that workers and elders had no choice but to ask Brandon to not take part, Brandon's correspondence and conversation with them can serve as a record of essential doctrines of the fellowship. Why do you think that workers and elders had no choice but to ask Brandon to not take part? Because it seems that in his meeting testimonies he was actively and repeatedly speaking against one of the essential doctrines of the fellowship. No public speaker in any church could get away with this. I don't think that just sharing his experience of attending a Passover dinner was the reason - an established member of our meeting shared the exact same thing one Sunday morning. Or that just speaking on truth vs. tradition was the reason either - I've done that myself plenty of times and I think I've heard others speak along those lines as well. It was the cumulative effect of speaking both directly and indirectly against the essential doctrine of the church (that all true sheep will be brought into the fold - the meetings). Personally, I would prefer if people were asked to not take part for reasons of immorality, sexual abuse and CSA and not for speaking against exclusivity. But that is ultimately determined by what the church holds as important and essential.
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Post by mdm on May 4, 2015 11:51:19 GMT -5
I am somewhat surprised by Lyle's stance in this. Of course, most of us don't know all the details. But I would like to think that our Fellowship is inclusive with the love and grace shown by Christ, to embrace all who profess belief in Christ. Who knows, in time Brandon may come to value the practical benefits of our form of worship (in the home) and ministry. And in the process, Brandon may stimulate some others to think and search scripture, so as to discover their safety is in Christ alone, not in simply belonging to any church, group or creed. May God's wisdom overrule, admin From the information given on this thread, I can't see what else he could have done. It reminds me of the story of a mother watching her son marching in a parade - her comment was "They're all out of step except my Johnny". One man is clearly marching to a different tune to the rest, and whichever side you believe to be in the right, the overall effect wasn't bringing harmony. Anyone who would bring a recording device into a convention meeting, for the purpose of recording his own testimony, was obviously fully aware that he was planning to say something that wasn't in line with the beliefs of the rest of the congregation, and was expecting to be challenged about it afterwards. I'd be interested to know what you mean by the term "all who profess belief in Christ"? - People who say they believe, or people who are actually living as Jesus taught? I've met lots of people who profess to believe in Christ, but I've never met any other group of people who is actively trying to follow all the teachings of Jesus. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him". It is obvious that Brandon was "preaching" to the folks in his meeting and at the convention. I think he did it sincerely and out of best intentions. And I doubt that he was surprised at what transpired (he did have a recording device ready when the elders came for a visit as well). It was a win-win situation: Brandon got to move on to a church where he could fit in (I hear from a friend who is in touch with him that he is happy in his new church), and his meeting was freed of discomfort provoked by his testimonies. You say that you've never met any other group who is actively trying to follow all the teachings of Jesus. Are you saying that f&w actively try to follow ALL the teachings of Jesus, while other groups you are aware of pick and chose which teachings they try to follow?
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Post by mdm on May 4, 2015 11:54:15 GMT -5
Seems like it is much easier to be kicked out for wrong doctrine than it is for CSA until the CSA has been reported to authorities! Even those who have been reported for CSA are usually not kicked out, right? I would rephrase that as: it is much easier to be kicked out for wrong doctrine than it is for CSA (period).
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Post by maryhig on May 4, 2015 12:12:28 GMT -5
Mary said: God lead me out to be more correct.The only way to God, is to follow Jesus and his teachings. I find it interesting that god and Jesus generally lead people into situations where they are more comfortable or where they would rather be. More comfortable! Are you kidding? Fighting myself is the hardest fight of my life! If I wanted it easy I'd join a religion that's more accommodating! How is denying yourself easy? It's not! But the peace in my heart is worth the sacrifice any day!
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Post by SharonArnold on May 4, 2015 12:16:59 GMT -5
I had heard the black stocking change came when a sister worker refused to wear them. She had been to a city - New York City perhaps - and seen prostitutes wearing them. She refused to be attired the same as them in that manner. Others followed her decision. Grass roots movements? Change from the bottom up is always more effective than change from the top down. I suppose this might be one of the lessons from Yertle the Turtle. (I've always said that everything I've ever needed to know about life, I learned from Dr Suess.) This is probably true when talking about change across society, with many people from diverse backgrounds. However, when it comes to organizational change (particularly where work processes are concerned), I am not sure that I agree. I've had many a work project, where adoption has been left to the user base. Sometimes it's like "pushing string", or worse yet, "herding cats". However, I have had projects where there has been a champion at the top of the organization, and adoption has been swift and sure. (It particularly helps when said champion has legislative powers.) In the end, if any organization is serious about real change, there is no "top-down" or "bottom-up" kind of assessments. EVERYONE simply does whatever is in their power to do. I've been disappointed that 2X2ism has not done this with CSA/other sexual misconduct - because I think they could make real change very quickly if they chose to.
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Post by bubbles on May 4, 2015 13:02:29 GMT -5
I am somewhat surprised by Lyle's stance in this. Of course, most of us don't know all the details. But I would like to think that our Fellowship is inclusive with the love and grace shown by Christ, to embrace all who profess belief in Christ. Who knows, in time Brandon may come to value the practical benefits of our form of worship (in the home) and ministry. And in the process, Brandon may stimulate some others to think and search scripture, so as to discover their safety is in Christ alone, not in simply belonging to any church, group or creed. May God's wisdom overrule, admin From the information given on this thread, I can't see what else he could have done. It reminds me of the story of a mother watching her son marching in a parade - her comment was "They're all out of step except my Johnny". One man is clearly marching to a different tune to the rest, and whichever side you believe to be in the right, the overall effect wasn't bringing harmony. Anyone who would bring a recording device into a convention meeting, for the purpose of recording his own testimony, was obviously fully aware that he was planning to say something that wasn't in line with the beliefs of the rest of the congregation, and was expecting to be challenged about it afterwards. I'd be interested to know what you mean by the term "all who profess belief in Christ"? - People who say they believe, or people who are actually living as Jesus taught? I've met lots of people who profess to believe in Christ, but I've never met any other group of people who is actively trying to follow all the teachings of Jesus. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him". Felicity With all due respect your comment is astonishing. I know many people like you describe who do not know anything about the existance of meetings. The earth is large. As for body of christ only the lord knows who they are individually. We need to be careful what we say.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 13:31:35 GMT -5
I'd be interested to know what you mean by the term "all who profess belief in Christ"? - People who say they believe, or people who are actually living as Jesus taught? I've met lots of people who profess to believe in Christ, but I've never met any other group of people who is actively trying to follow all the teachings of Jesus. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him". You say that you've never met any other group who is actively trying to follow all the teachings of Jesus. Are you saying that f&w actively try to follow ALL the teachings of Jesus, while other groups you are aware of pick and chose which teachings they try to follow? I can't speak for all f&w, but the people we meet with are actively trying to follow all the teachings of Jesus, and I personally have never met anyone outside the f&w who shared the same beliefs. There are several Christian denominations in this part of the world, but I've never come across any whose doctrine is in line with the Bible. That's why I asked about Admin's experience.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 4, 2015 13:41:59 GMT -5
Typical denial review. It does not fool me. Letters such as those by Lyle are enough proof. Are you sure you attend the same church as Lyle? After all you are supposed to be the same the world over. "Are you sure you attend the same church as Lyle?" That is a great point you make, Mary!
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Post by dmmichgood on May 4, 2015 13:57:42 GMT -5
Mary, Your writings come across to me as reasonably typical of a disgruntled /disaffected ex member. I guess in your normal fashion you'll now post of how incorrect my expression of my own impression and thoughts are? I am unable to find much common ground with you I'm afraid. ad hominem fallacy: "attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument."
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Post by dmmichgood on May 4, 2015 14:40:49 GMT -5
I am somewhat surprised by Lyle's stance in this. Of course, most of us don't know all the details. But I would like to think "that our Fellowship is inclusive with the love and grace shown by Christ, to embrace all who profess belief in Christ."
Who knows, in time Brandon may come to value the practical benefits of our form of worship (in the home) and ministry. And in the process, Brandon may stimulate some others to think and search scripture, so as to discover their safety is in Christ alone, not in simply belonging to any church, group or creed. May God's wisdom overrule, admin Admin., -You might like to think "that our Fellowship is inclusive with the love and grace shown by Christ, to embrace all who profess belief in Christ," however, -you know that isn't the way it is, nor has it ever been that way. All along the TRUTH, THE WAY, THE FRIENDS & WORKERS; whatever you want to call it; has ALWAYS been that people must hear through a worker in order to be "saved."
That belief has been THE bedrock of the TRUTH!
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Post by dmmichgood on May 4, 2015 15:03:52 GMT -5
The only way to God, is to follow Jesus and his teachings. People can say they believe all they want! That's the easy part! Taking up your cross, denying your flesh and the sins of the heart is a whole different ball game! We can't do it without him. We have to let Christ into our hearts! We can say we are from any religion, but if we are not doing these things then we are not following him! This is what his apostles, and all deciples did! They gave up the world! One thing I've been shocked at since I've been in here is the picking about religion! It's the heart that counts! And having the love of God within it! You'll know of someone is following Christ by their life! Because if he's in your heart, you won't want the world, you'll want to be closer to God! That's true religion! Maryhig, suppose you met someone who had given up "worldly" ambitions & devoted their lives to helping others.
You could see by their life that they were truly loved others as themselves.
Never-the less, they weren't religious in any way.
Indeed were an atheist.
Would you still say that they can't do it without Christ into our hearts?
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Post by dmmichgood on May 4, 2015 15:19:35 GMT -5
Felicity, how about this teaching? James 1: 27 King James Bible "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction,"
I never saw much, if any, of this being done when I was professing. Do you see any of that actively being done now?
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Post by dmmichgood on May 4, 2015 15:27:18 GMT -5
Not disgruntled Review005. I chose to leave on my own free will. God lead me out to be more correct. The opposite to disgruntled is in fact true for most of us on here who have left. I am pleased that I left and am happy to talk to ex members on this board and of course present members who remind us of our reasons for leaving. Not disgruntled? , re read your last 50 posts and see if someone could be forgiven for having used that adjective. ad hominem fallacy: "attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument."
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Post by dmmichgood on May 4, 2015 15:29:23 GMT -5
Sydney Holt God has planned a person must hear through one sent by God who is living Truth as well as speaking Truth. We are God's chosen people. Our main objectives are to serve the workers, attend gospel meetings and conventions and honor The Truth. [Los Angeles CA Special Meeting, 3/10/85] REF #158 So do you agree with this Review ? Just recently we have seen how incomplete notes muddied the waters on this forum. I am quite unable to make meaningful comments on what you have posted. I don't trust them as accurate full and complete! Post full notes that can be verified as accurate and I'll try. ad hominem fallacy: "attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument."
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Post by dmmichgood on May 4, 2015 15:31:30 GMT -5
Mary I don't recognise what you write. But I think you once belonged to the same church? I guess the difference must be your mindset and mine? ad hominem fallacy: "attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument."
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 15:32:20 GMT -5
felicity said: I've met lots of people who profess to believe in Christ, but I've never met any other group of people who is actively trying to follow all the teachings of Jesus. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him". Felicity, how about this teaching? James 1: 27 King James Bible "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction,"
I never saw much, if any, of this being done when I was professing. Do you see any of that actively being done now?
Yes, that is certainly still being done today, and there are still people fulfilling the second part of that verse too. A lot goes on behind the scenes.
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Post by fixit on May 4, 2015 15:36:49 GMT -5
I am somewhat surprised by Lyle's stance in this. Of course, most of us don't know all the details. But I would like to think that our Fellowship is inclusive with the love and grace shown by Christ, to embrace all who profess belief in Christ. Who knows, in time Brandon may come to value the practical benefits of our form of worship (in the home) and ministry. And in the process, Brandon may stimulate some others to think and search scripture, so as to discover their safety is in Christ alone, not in simply belonging to any church, group or creed. May God's wisdom overrule, admin From the information given on this thread, I can't see what else he could have done. It reminds me of the story of a mother watching her son marching in a parade - her comment was " They're all out of step except my Johnny". One man is clearly marching to a different tune to the rest, and whichever side you believe to be in the right, the overall effect wasn't bringing harmony. Joseph in the OT was clearly out of step with his brethren. Joshua and Caleb were clearly out of step with the other leaders of the tribes. Jesus was clearly out of step with the Children of Israel.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 15:40:52 GMT -5
From the information given on this thread, I can't see what else he could have done. It reminds me of the story of a mother watching her son marching in a parade - her comment was " They're all out of step except my Johnny". One man is clearly marching to a different tune to the rest, and whichever side you believe to be in the right, the overall effect wasn't bringing harmony. Joseph in the OT was clearly out of step with his brethren. Joshua and Caleb were clearly out of step with the other leaders of the tribes. Jesus was clearly out of step with the Children of Israel. Yes, that's true. In all those cases it brought separation. Cain was out of step and it brought death to his brother and separation for himself. Achan was out of step when he hid the spoils of Babylon in his tent, and it brought separation and death. Gehazi was out of step and it brought separation for him. I'm sure you can think of lots more examples
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Post by maryhig on May 4, 2015 15:42:31 GMT -5
The only way to God, is to follow Jesus and his teachings. People can say they believe all they want! That's the easy part! Taking up your cross, denying your flesh and the sins of the heart is a whole different ball game! We can't do it without him. We have to let Christ into our hearts! We can say we are from any religion, but if we are not doing these things then we are not following him! This is what his apostles, and all deciples did! They gave up the world! One thing I've been shocked at since I've been in here is the picking about religion! It's the heart that counts! And having the love of God within it! You'll know of someone is following Christ by their life! Because if he's in your heart, you won't want the world, you'll want to be closer to God! That's true religion! Maryhig, suppose you met someone who had given up "worldly" ambitions & devoted their lives to helping others.
You could see by their life that they were truly loved others as themselves.
Never-the less, they weren't religious in any way.
Indeed were an atheist.
Would you still say that they can't do it without Christ into our hearts?
Good comes from God, so any good in anyone's heart comes from him! If a person is living like that, then they are living how Jesus taught us to live. And there are a whole lot that say they believe in God and don't live it. Now I'm not God. But my heart tells me that he would show mercy on them! Also there's the parable of the good Samaritan, Jesus is clearly saying he had the better heart than the priest and the Levite in the Jewish religion that went past and Jesus then told lawyer who was questioning him to do likewise as the Samaritan did. So he's saying that the Samaritan who is against the Jew's had a better heart than the Jew's that walked past. God looks at and judges the heart, and I believe that if someone is a pure clean gentle caring heart, he will see it!
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Post by fixit on May 4, 2015 15:47:52 GMT -5
Jesus spoke of one being out of step with ninety nine.
Actually, I find the whole of Matthew 18 quite helpful with respect to how to relate to others.
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