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Post by blandie on Dec 19, 2015 14:12:05 GMT -5
For a start, Why don't you two tell us how much money you contributed when you were 2x2s? Seriously? Have you really not listened and taken to heart the repetitive ' when thou doest alms let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth'? Probably elizabethcoleman heard that and knew that the teaching was that the friends shouldn't keep a record of the cash and other things given. Some give thousands per year and some give next to nothing and some give the bulk in inheritances and some give to individual workers and some give mostly to overseers and trustees. The standard was the widow's mite and it not being how much you give but to give all you can and place everything at the disposal of the work. Its not accounting for the giving thats been the problem - its accounting of the administration of the huge funds thats been accumulated over the years. Short of the discovery process during a legal action such as CSA theres no way of knowing how the assets are being disposed and no accounting and no way to know when worker funds get misappropriated by trustees or risky investments go sour or when funds get misdirected by overseers to his personal/family interests or when things disappear on the death or change of overseers. Its troubling that some instances of mishandling of the stewardship entrusted to them have come to light and who knows what else. If nothings awry then there should be no problem with providing an account to the church - giving a regular accounting is part of a steward's job description in the bible - and I can't think of any reason not to.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Dec 19, 2015 14:33:21 GMT -5
Thank you Blandie, In reply to Nathan's request though, I would really have no idea how much I gave. Nathan does not get it that it is not the giving that is in question but what happens to the gifts once given. Missappropriation seemed to be the order of the day when I was professing.
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Post by rational on Dec 19, 2015 18:23:30 GMT -5
Thank you Blandie, In reply to Nathan's request though, I would really have no idea how much I gave. Nathan does not get it that it is not the giving that is in question but what happens to the gifts once given. Missappropriation seemed to be the order of the day when I was professing. I assume you did/do not like the system and have stopped giving. Are you looking for a refund?
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Post by joanna on Dec 19, 2015 20:42:42 GMT -5
The "authentic" pastor's less than subtle inference in the below video: 'Now if people would just simply read their bible to discern who are the fraudulent preachers you will know where to send in your money' It requires a finely-honed degree of disconnect for the religious to call out other's of like-mind on any issue including finances. Blatant and extreme cases of financial abuse involves pastors and church leaders misappropriating donations into purchasing real estate, luxury holidays, cars and in some instances, private planes. Forbes Tax Article adds more to this topicA genuine and equitable inquiry into the fiscal status of religious organisation S would motivate a broad critique and would address the tax-exempt status of churches and their lack of financial transparency. Anything less reeks of bigotry. Duping believers into giving money is clearly an easy-task; cite a line of scripture, mention god, personal reward and voila: the plates/bins/coffers are oer'flowin'. Such a neat method to accrue wealth and control. If only those of you who have done the side-shuffle from one religion into another were able to see the bigger picture. John Oliver started a no-less brand of craziness called Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption to demonstrate how easy it is to invent another 'money-making machine' aka church.
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Post by rational on Dec 19, 2015 23:35:54 GMT -5
Thank you Blandie, In reply to Nathan's request though, I would really have no idea how much I gave. Nathan does not get it that it is not the giving that is in question but what happens to the gifts once given. Missappropriation seemed to be the order of the day when I was professing. I trust you understand the meaning of the word 'gift'. Free will giving means once you give the money you really have no say over the use of the funds. The only way you have of controlling the funds is to stop giving and/or change the procedure to 'pay for service'. You give $10 and Worker Bob has to preach 3 hours to 5 people.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Dec 19, 2015 23:53:50 GMT -5
I remember some busker who was truly awful at whatever he was playing so I gave him some money on the condition that he go buy himself a drink immediately and I could have some peace. Perhaps the same would work with workers.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2015 0:17:55 GMT -5
Seriously? Have you really not listened and taken to heart the repetitive ' when thou doest alms let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth'? Probably elizabethcoleman heard that and knew that the teaching was that the friends shouldn't keep a record of the cash and other things given. Some give thousands per year and some give next to nothing and some give the bulk in inheritances and some give to individual workers and some give mostly to overseers and trustees. The standard was the widow's mite and it not being how much you give but to give all you can and place everything at the disposal of the work. Its not accounting for the giving thats been the problem - its accounting of the administration of the huge funds thats been accumulated over the years. Short of the discovery process during a legal action such as CSA theres no way of knowing how the assets are being disposed and no accounting and no way to know when worker funds get misappropriated by trustees or risky investments go sour or when funds get misdirected by overseers to his personal/family interests or when things disappear on the death or change of overseers. Its troubling that some instances of mishandling of the stewardship entrusted to them have come to light and who knows what else. If nothings awry then there should be no problem with providing an account to the church - giving a regular accounting is part of a steward's job description in the bible - and I can't think of any reason not to. What you are saying is true.. Jesus said, " When thou does alms let NOT thy left hand know what thy right hand does...." Then why the exes want to know how much money so and so friends give to the overseer/trust fund? why? because they are sticky beaks we in the fellowship should be the ones who would want to know if anybody, but we don't because the Holy Spirit that is within us confirms to us that all is alright
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Post by blandie on Dec 20, 2015 0:36:44 GMT -5
Yeah thats just the sort of thing I recall those seeking to be seen as hearty and unquestioning and currying favor with the workers saying. Then they'd turn around and fret and tsk-tsk over the problems and never step up to support any reform and just put it to gods doing and the way being 'perfect' even if it was a people problem and a church problem. Condoning evil and abetting those who've done wrong and resisting anything that would put things on a right footing in the name of the spirit - well one wonders what sort of spirit that would be - its not what we see in the bible where the church openly dealt with such.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2015 0:47:04 GMT -5
Yeah thats just the sort of thing I recall those seeking to be seen as hearty and unquestioning and currying favor with the workers saying. Then they'd turn around and fret and tsk-tsk over the problems and never step up to support any reform and just put it to gods doing and the way being 'perfect' even if it was a people problem and a church problem. Condoning evil and abetting those who've done wrong and resisting anything that would put things on a right footing in the name of the spirit - well one wonders what sort of spirit that would be - its not what we see in the bible where the church openly dealt with such. what has it to do with you?
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Post by Roselyn T on Dec 20, 2015 0:49:41 GMT -5
Great post blandie the same as they do when there are issues with CSA.
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Post by faune on Dec 20, 2015 0:54:15 GMT -5
For a start, Why don't you two tell us how much money you contributed when you were 2x2s? Seriously? Have you really not listened and taken to heart the repetitive ' when thou doest alms let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth'? Probably elizabethcoleman heard that and knew that the teaching was that the friends shouldn't keep a record of the cash and other things given. Some give thousands per year and some give next to nothing and some give the bulk in inheritances and some give to individual workers and some give mostly to overseers and trustees. The standard was the widow's mite and it not being how much you give but to give all you can and place everything at the disposal of the work. Its not accounting for the giving thats been the problem - its accounting of the administration of the huge funds thats been accumulated over the years. Short of the discovery process during a legal action such as CSA theres no way of knowing how the assets are being disposed and no accounting and no way to know when worker funds get misappropriated by trustees or risky investments go sour or when funds get misdirected by overseers to his personal/family interests or when things disappear on the death or change of overseers. Its troubling that some instances of mishandling of the stewardship entrusted to them have come to light and who knows what else. If nothings awry then there should be no problem with providing an account to the church - giving a regular accounting is part of a steward's job description in the bible - and I can't think of any reason not to.Perhaps this posting regarding how Eldon Tenniswood and Jack Carroll used these trust fund accounts needs to be taken into consideration here along with the emptying of some trust fund accounts in Colorado after Leslie White was removed from the work?
For more information on overseers' trust fund accounts, check out this thread for more details.
professing.proboards.com/thread/17920/amazed?page=8 I Am So Amazed
professing.proboards.com/thread/19367/new-leslie-white-thread?page=12 New Leslie White Thread
Also, let's not forget Leslie White, who was overseer in Colorado until he was removed for inappropriate behavior. Perhaps the missing trust fund monies was a greater concern to the 2x2 hierarchy than his sexual misbehavior over the years?
www.thelyingtruth.info/?f=archive&id=index&article=lesliewhite Leslie White - Former overseer removed from "the work"
Allegations finally catch up with disgraced overseer — removed for inappropriate behavior
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Post by Roselyn T on Dec 20, 2015 0:58:40 GMT -5
@virgo is it "alright" for the money given to the F&W for the Gospel, be used to help workers who sexually abuse children get out of jail? You seem to think everything is "alright" yet we only have to see what happened in Victoria with EB to see that is not the case ! I wonder if the Holy Spirit, that you "claim" is within the F&W led them to spend money given for the gospel on a man who sexually abused children ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Dec 22, 2015 6:31:42 GMT -5
What no response @virgo !!!
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Post by jondough on Dec 22, 2015 9:24:30 GMT -5
What you are saying is true.. Jesus said, " When thou does alms let NOT thy left hand know what thy right hand does...." Then why the exes want to know how much money so and so friends give to the overseer/trust fund? why? because they are sticky beaks we in the fellowship should be the ones who would want to know if anybody, but we don't because the Holy Spirit that is within us confirms to us that all is alright Or at least our eyes show evidence that the Workers are not living the highlife. Maybe the Holy Spirit sticks with things of more importance, and let's us do what we can do on our own...such as use common sense.
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Post by blandie on Dec 22, 2015 14:24:38 GMT -5
Warren Buffett still lives in a small ranch house in a middle-class neighborhood and drives a Subaru. Sam Walton drove a beat-up old pickup truck to work until he retired and by outward appearances didn't live the highlife either. I knew a multi-billionaire who was similar and was a humble-looking and talking and very accessible regular joe that you'd regularly pass on the street without a clue. Judging by outward appearances is meaningless. To some people money is a tool to get and maintain power or security or whatever and 'living the highlife' is not a goal. But some workers DO live rather high even if flaunting is a no-no - and even if there are also people who haven't seen or noticed it or people who prefer to ignore things in favor of relying on faith that this or that doesn't happen or people who know but are fearful of disturbing the 'spirit' of outward appearance. Its the same denial problem as with the history.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2015 15:18:00 GMT -5
why? because they are sticky beaks we in the fellowship should be the ones who would want to know if anybody, but we don't because the Holy Spirit that is within us confirms to us that all is alright Or at least our eyes show evidence that the Workers are not living the highlife. Maybe the Holy Spirit sticks with things of more importance, and let's us do what we can do on our own...such as use common sense. Isaiah 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. i wonder if He is talking about our common sense also
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Post by rational on Dec 22, 2015 15:33:52 GMT -5
Or at least our eyes show evidence that the Workers are not living the highlife. Maybe the Holy Spirit sticks with things of more importance, and let's us do what we can do on our own...such as use common sense. Isaiah 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. i wonder if He is talking about our common sense also It seems to be a paragraph thrown in for the believer to use when confronted by direct questions that cannot be answered using common logic.
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Post by blandie on Dec 22, 2015 15:38:09 GMT -5
I don't BTW think that most folks go into the work for money - and thats no different than those who go into ministry with mainline churches because its a long row to hoe before one gets enough supporters to build a base to make a secure cushion or more even possible unless one has the personal magnetism and skills to rise more quickly thru the ranks. That doesn't mean that theres no security in taking up the ministry tho. I'm not so old as not to be able to recall my peers being drawn to the work and surmising that it was the 'spirit' leading when it was really the path of least resistance and that they were at a place in life with no marriage prospects and no particular career paths and no particular interests that had developed or been fostered in their upbringings. Some weren't at all drawn to any aspect of being a worker - didn't like to speak in public and weren't sure about anything docrinally except to submit to the workers and didn't like the prospect of being unmarried and such - but they thought it must be the spirit because they didn't see a compelling alternative and it was a path that would bring peoples approval and there were always those 'fields white for harvest' sermons intended to move people and plant the suggestion. If money was the motive and with the right sales and persuasion skills there'd be a quicker path to money by breaking off and starting a new religion or such.
But once one begins climbing the ladder and starts getting support and those envelopes in the mail then choices widen. In a mainline church that can take more time than in 2x2-ism but similar to it the real money is with those people who are at the top of the food chain. Whats done with those funds is not constrained in 2x2-ism which IS unlike the situation in mainline churches. In neither is it the giver or those who sign-on to be ministers or even whats done with the money - its with oversight and transparency and not lying about things.
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