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Post by Mary on Sept 2, 2014 17:24:21 GMT -5
Willis Propp clearly spells it out in this - under membership - preachers/apostles (note he calls them apostles) workersect.org/2x205rb.htmlHe stated they do not receive a salary but are guaranteed free board and lodging. Guaranteed is the word, yet they claim unlike other ministers, to be going out by faith. Its hypocrisy!!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2014 17:26:05 GMT -5
Having lived on both sides of the issues here, perhaps none will object to my making a few comments. First of all, in offering for the work, getting food raiment and shelter were never even once a consideration nor motivation for doing so, nor did I know of any other worker, save one who launched out into that work with such a mindset, though I accept there may well be or have been.
Second, in every home I was priveledged to stay, I sought to make myself useful as much as possible. As a younger worker, I pretty much just went where I was told. In the rare occasions when I had responsibility I went where invited.
Now as to tithe, in the old testament it was never a tenth of income as in money, rather a tenth of increase in crops and livestock and then could only be received by a Levites priest. The tithe of the new testament is eve more restrictive, yet applying beyond the limits of physical gain into a time, energy, effort realm. Do I personally believe in giving so lttle as a mere 10 % of gain, time, effort, energy into the service of my Lord? Of course not, for it is a whole lot more.
As to appreciation for anything bestowed upon me, food, raiment, shelter, gifts and even money from then to the very present, I tried then and now to admit my need, and express thankfullness for any supplying anything to that need. I believe most of the workers today would have the same attitude, and I begrudge them not, save for the parsimious hoarding overseers who travel, live lavishly and share with favored cohorts.
Now from the other side of the table, never once have I given grudgenly, nor parsimoniously, offering always what I could sometimes only a few dollars in coins. Hospitality in my home has been just that, the best possible, though meager at times, and sometimes just hamburgers, or hot dogs and beans. In every case we did not spend beyond our means in what was prepared. It is what I knew workers would have wished for me to do and provide, so we did.
And those are the facts from this person's experience on both sides of the current issue in this thread.
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Post by stevnz on Sept 2, 2014 18:18:45 GMT -5
Willis Propp clearly spells it out in this - under membership - preachers/apostles (note he calls them apostles) workersect.org/2x205rb.htmlHe stated they do not receive a salary but are guaranteed free board and lodging. Guaranteed is the word, yet they claim unlike other ministers, to be going out by faith. Its hypocrisy!! Interesting that Willis Propp etc didn't seem to agree with the perspective of Review005: 40. The books, accounts and records of the Secretary and Auditor shall be audited at least once each year by the Society's auditor. A complete and proper standing of the books for the previous year shall be submitted by such auditor at each Annual Meeting of the Society. The fiscal year end of the society in each year shall be November 30.
41. The books and records of the Society may be inspected by any member of the Society at the annual meeting provide for herein or at any time on giving reasonable notice and arranging a time satisfactory to the officer or officers having charge of same. Each member of the Board shall at all times have access to such books and records.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 2, 2014 18:27:03 GMT -5
Something changed along the way.
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Post by reallyandtruly on Sept 2, 2014 19:07:38 GMT -5
isn't it wonderful that we don't complain about that but love to have them grace our table, God loves a cheerful giver but don't think much of complainers. love is a wonderful thing it frees one from all the negative of man But it is different if you are expected to give money though, suddenly that is wrong and evil. Don't you think church members love supporting their ministers in what ever way they can, whether it be giving money, having them around etc. Yes God loves a cheerful giver so why so many complaints when it comes to money. I'm referring to the way professing people look down on those in churches who give. Also they were told not to be a burden on people and the workers place themselves in a position where they are a burden on people. People have to care for them. Your dreaming when you say 'you' don't complain, I heard plenty of complaints from people who had to house the workers and workers visits and this is from well thought of 'saints'. The flowery words in your post gives me a sick feeling of saying one, thing doing another. Kind of rote learning from the cradle. The workers expect free board and keep. It is their expectation when they go into the work that they will live free, hardly living by faith. But if ministers have any expectation they are considered wrong. Double standard to me. They convince people they are going out by faith when they are not. Again deception to outsiders. Someone dares to defend what they believe with a post from the heart and they get slaughtered with a comment like that. Of couldn't you possibly believe that someone could want to give, enjoy having the workers and want to see them more often, but to label someone as hypocritical for being honest is totally judgemental. Unacceptable!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2014 19:37:45 GMT -5
Something changed along the way. Yes, things HAVE changed.
From what I've heard from Sweden a while ago, their church has incorporated, AND has not made any reversals as was done in the Canadian Provence. The hypocrisy of it all is astounding to me. If what I understand is correct, they even lied to the Swedish Government about who was present it it's formation. As close as the Swedish overseer was to the overseer forming the Canadian legal group, personally I see his hand all over the Swedish action, and figure it was a trial run. Now I don't wish to be misunderstood. I accept such a thing may be legally required one day, however,...
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Post by faune on Sept 2, 2014 19:45:12 GMT -5
Yes, I think people forget this. In some instances, you might get a few hours notice, or sometimes less, that they are coming over for a meal. As you say a church minister would never ask themselves over for a meal. With about 2 hours notice one fellow rang up and requested that we take him to a specific restaurant for dinner before the Wed night meeting. Who does that? Fred ~ Somebody with a strong sense of entitlement? Perhaps he didn't like what you had for supper that night, too? Honestly, that's pretty tacky, no doubt about it!
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Post by holdmyhand on Sept 2, 2014 20:19:32 GMT -5
Lets look at what Paul has to say to Corinthians
1 Cor 16 he asks them to set aside money weekly and tells them to choose men to take the proceeds to Jerusalem with a letter of approval he would write, he also said if they thought he should go he would accompany them.
2 Cor The purpose was to help the poor/afflicted in Jerusalem, both God’s people and ALL men To be a blessing and bring honour and praise to God and cause them to thank God The church was to be the conduit donations flowed through to bless the afflicted and bring praises and honour to God, it was done openly and with the knowledge and input of the whole church
2Co 8:18 With Titus we are also sending one of the Lord's followers who is well known in every church for spreading the good news.
2Co 8:19 The churches chose this follower to travel with us while we carry this gift that will bring praise to the Lord and show how much we hope to help.
2Co 8:20 We don't want anyone to find fault with the way we handle your generous gift. 2Co 8:21 But we want to do what pleases the Lord and what people think is right.
2Co 9:1 I don't need to write you about the money you plan to give for God's people.
2Co 9:2 I know how eager you are to give. And I have proudly told the Lord's followers in Macedonia that you people in Achaia have been ready for a whole year. Now your desire to give has made them want to give.
2Co 9:3 That's why I am sending Titus and the two others to you. I want you to be ready, just as I promised. This will prove that we were not wrong to brag about you.
2Co 9:4 Some followers from Macedonia may come with me, and I want them to find that you have the money ready. If you don't, I would be embarrassed for trusting you to do this. But you would be embarrassed even more.
2Co 9:5 So I have decided to ask Titus and the others to spend some time with you before I arrive. This way they can arrange to collect the money you have promised. Then you will have the chance to give because you want to, and not because you feel forced to. 2Co 9:6 Remember this saying, "A few seeds make a small harvest, but a lot of seeds make a big harvest."
2Co 9:7 Each of you must make up your own mind about how much to give. But don't feel sorry that you must give and don't feel that you are forced to give. God loves people who love to give.
2Co 9:8 God can bless you with everything you need, and you will always have more than enough to do all kinds of good things for others.
2Co 9:9 The Scriptures say, "God freely gives his gifts to the poor, and always does right."
2Co 9:10 God gives seed to farmers and provides everyone with food. He will increase what you have, so that you can give even more to those in need.
2Co 9:11 You will be blessed in every way, and you will be able to keep on being generous. Then many people will thank God when we deliver your gift.
2Co 9:12 What you are doing is much more than a service that supplies God's people with what they need. It is something that will make many others thank God.
2Co 9:13 The way in which you have proved yourselves by this service will bring honor and praise to God. You believed the message about Christ, and you obeyed it by sharing generously with God's people and with everyone else. 2Co 9:14 Now they are praying for you and want to see you, because God used you to bless them so very much. 2Co 9:15 Thank God for his gift that is too wonderful for words!
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Post by fixit on Sept 2, 2014 20:35:54 GMT -5
Willis Propp clearly spells it out in this - under membership - preachers/apostles (note he calls them apostles) workersect.org/2x205rb.htmlHe stated they do not receive a salary but are guaranteed free board and lodging. Guaranteed is the word, yet they claim unlike other ministers, to be going out by faith. Its hypocrisy!! Interesting that Willis Propp etc didn't seem to agree with the perspective of Review005: 40. The books, accounts and records of the Secretary and Auditor shall be audited at least once each year by the Society's auditor. A complete and proper standing of the books for the previous year shall be submitted by such auditor at each Annual Meeting of the Society. The fiscal year end of the society in each year shall be November 30.
41. The books and records of the Society may be inspected by any member of the Society at the annual meeting provide for herein or at any time on giving reasonable notice and arranging a time satisfactory to the officer or officers having charge of same. Each member of the Board shall at all times have access to such books and records.The members of the Society were not even told that there was a society or that they were legally members of it. I can't imagine Willis Propp voluntarily opening the books for scrutiny by ordinary members.
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Post by rational on Sept 2, 2014 22:01:28 GMT -5
The members of the Society were not even told that there was a society or that they were legally members of it. I can't imagine Willis Propp voluntarily opening the books for scrutiny by ordinary members. While it was in force it gave the members much more power than they currently have. The requirement that all members be notified of every meeting would have been interesting!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2014 22:55:35 GMT -5
But it is different if you are expected to give money though, suddenly that is wrong and evil. Don't you think church members love supporting their ministers in what ever way they can, whether it be giving money, having them around etc. Yes God loves a cheerful giver so why so many complaints when it comes to money. I'm referring to the way professing people look down on those in churches who give. Also they were told not to be a burden on people and the workers place themselves in a position where they are a burden on people. People have to care for them. Your dreaming when you say 'you' don't complain, I heard plenty of complaints from people who had to house the workers and workers visits and this is from well thought of 'saints'. The flowery words in your post gives me a sick feeling of saying one, thing doing another. Kind of rote learning from the cradle. The workers expect free board and keep. It is their expectation when they go into the work that they will live free, hardly living by faith. But if ministers have any expectation they are considered wrong. Double standard to me. They convince people they are going out by faith when they are not. Again deception to outsiders. Someone dares to defend what they believe with a post from the heart and they get slaughtered with a comment like that. Of couldn't you possibly believe that someone could want to give, enjoy having the workers and want to see them more often, but to label someone as hypocritical for being honest is totally judgemental. Unacceptable! it doesn't really worry me but thanks anyway but it does show what is in the heart of the poster
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Post by fixit on Sept 2, 2014 23:43:10 GMT -5
The members of the Society were not even told that there was a society or that they were legally members of it. I can't imagine Willis Propp voluntarily opening the books for scrutiny by ordinary members. While it was in force it gave the members much more power than they currently have. The requirement that all members be notified of every meeting would have been interesting! Yes. I presume Willis was supposed to notify all members that they were in fact members and there was in fact a registered organization running their church. Come to think of it, Willis considered it a problem when the members discovered they were members, and encouraged them to burn the document:
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Post by faune on Sept 3, 2014 0:25:07 GMT -5
While it was in force it gave the members much more power than they currently have. The requirement that all members be notified of every meeting would have been interesting! Yes. I presume Willis was supposed to notify all members that they were in fact members and there was in fact a registered organization running their church. Come to think of it, Willis considered it a problem when the members discovered they were members, and encouraged them to burn the document:
Fixit ~ That's hilarious as well as ironic! Nothing like destroying the evidence?
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Post by holdmyhand on Sept 3, 2014 1:44:45 GMT -5
Yes. I presume Willis was supposed to notify all members that they were in fact members and there was in fact a registered organization running their church. Come to think of it, Willis considered it a problem when the members discovered they were members, and encouraged them to burn the document:
Fixit ~ That's hilarious as well as ironic! Nothing like destroying the evidence?
Yeah funny but also sad
Sad because they have learnt nothing from all the adverse publicity,
If it was a business the management would be doing everything possible to rebuild trust
We shouldn’t be put in a position where we have to ask for transparency, it should be clearly demonstrated and no one should be rebuked for daring to question the "true servants of God", especially now when so much that was hidden is now in the public domain
Why is it so hard to take Paul’s example, he demonstrated willingness to co-operate with the church and was careful nothing would be done to cause criticism or blame ?
At Auckland Special Meetings June 2014, Alan Richardson
Now just one more thing I want to mention and that’s a wee bit difficult too.
.... Now, about two months ago I and some other senior workers received a joint email letter written by some of our friends, a group of friends and their names will remain unnamed. In it they made several requests. One of the requests they made was this: that the servants of God could be more open or transparent with regard to money matters. Can you imagine it? That the servants of God be more open or transparent with money matters.
Now, when I was a young worker, quite a number of years ago now, we were clearly taught by example and by word also, that there was one matter that should never be mentioned from the platform. No servant of God, no true servant of God, should ever mention from a platform like this the matter of money. But I am going to mention one or two little matters this afternoon and I think it will help you understand where we are coming from on this subject.........
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Post by Mary on Sept 3, 2014 2:15:30 GMT -5
Something changed along the way. Yes, things HAVE changed.
From what I've heard from Sweden a while ago, their church has incorporated, AND has not made any reversals as was done in the Canadian Provence. The hypocrisy of it all is astounding to me. If what I understand is correct, they even lied to the Swedish Government about who was present it it's formation. As close as the Swedish overseer was to the overseer forming the Canadian legal group, personally I see his hand all over the Swedish action, and figure it was a trial run. Now I don't wish to be misunderstood. I accept such a thing may be legally required one day, however,... Is this what you mean Dennis? Organizational Documents Registered with the Government of Sweden by the Two by Two Church workersect.org/sweden.html
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Post by Mary on Sept 3, 2014 2:18:52 GMT -5
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Post by fixit on Sept 3, 2014 2:21:15 GMT -5
Yes, more openness and accountability could have saved the overseer group some embarrassment and certainly would have avoided a lot of disturbance in the church.
Willis signed the friends up to a legal contract that he didn't want them to know about. Can you imagine it?
Even worse - the Swedish document claimed that Edgar Massey was present, and I understand he didn't even know such a meeting took place.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 3:26:52 GMT -5
The ironic part is that they condemn churches who ask for money (I have never heard a minister ask for money for himself) while at the same time the workers ring up and ask to come for a meal. Asking to come to someones place for a meal is not acceptable behavior in any ones books bu then most workers social skills are badly lacking. Wow! Asking to come to someone's place for a meal may not be acceptable to you, Mary, but you just cannot apply that idea universally to every other person ( in any ones books). We are all different. To state that "Most workers social skills are badly lacking is your personal opinion based on a biased value judgement in my opinion. In this posting you come over as very biased and mean- spirited, sorry to say. Pardon me for being so frank.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 5:17:42 GMT -5
Yep, precisely, Mary. Isn't the age of information grand? Hope Cherie has documented it and more...Yes, things HAVE changed.
From what I've heard from Sweden a while ago, their church has incorporated, AND has not made any reversals as was done in the Canadian Provence. The hypocrisy of it all is astounding to me. If what I understand is correct, they even lied to the Swedish Government about who was present it it's formation. As close as the Swedish overseer was to the overseer forming the Canadian legal group, personally I see his hand all over the Swedish action, and figure it was a trial run. Now I don't wish to be misunderstood. I accept such a thing may be legally required one day, however,... Is this what you mean Dennis? Organizational Documents Registered with the Government of Sweden by the Two by Two Church workersect.org/sweden.html
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Post by rational on Sept 3, 2014 9:18:46 GMT -5
Yes. I presume Willis was supposed to notify all members that they were in fact members and there was in fact a registered organization running their church. Come to think of it, Willis considered it a problem when the members discovered they were members, and encouraged them to burn the document:
Fixit ~ That's hilarious as well as ironic! Nothing like destroying the evidence? Reminiscent of the early church destroying/condemning the documents that did not support their views. Acts 19.19 - Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.The writings of Arius and his followers following the Council of Nicaea were burned for heresy because they spoke against the doctrine of the Trinity. In more recent times (1656) Quaker books were burned in Boston. As recently as 2009 The Amazing Grace Baptist Church of Canton, North Carolina, destroyed translations of the bible with which it did not agree. Destroying things with which you do not agree has long been a christian tradition.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 10:19:59 GMT -5
It may be much like that to you, rat, however it is not much like it to me at all. And no, I do not want to get into a debate about it, which seems to me to be your prime reason for posting such a thing. If you can't see a vast difference in the two, then subject closed for me, though as usual here you most likely must have the last word.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 3, 2014 10:58:18 GMT -5
Something changed along the way. Yes, things HAVE changed.
From what I've heard from Sweden a while ago, their church has incorporated, AND has not made any reversals as was done in the Canadian Provence. The hypocrisy of it all is astounding to me. If what I understand is correct, they even lied to the Swedish Government about who was present it it's formation. As close as the Swedish overseer was to the overseer forming the Canadian legal group, personally I see his hand all over the Swedish action, and figure it was a trial run. Now I don't wish to be misunderstood. I accept such a thing may be legally required one day, however,... Dennis, may this not be another sign of the demolition of the 2x2 fellowship as known from the founders Wi, EC, GW, and others? I remember WI said that he had never thought the 2x2 church would last long and I feel that these "changes" are evident that the real 2x2 church of the late 1800's and early 1900's are dying out. When the generation which we belong to which are the sycophants and worker worshippers in a greater number then any other generation of the 2x2, have all passed on...what will be left will not be the real 2x2 church....there will be more incorporating, splitting sheets and blankets, new churches pop up here and there because of different unwritten rules that some don't like but others do, etc It'll all come down to like the Cooneyites who have often been said are a part of the 2x2s or we are a part of the Cooneyites which AFTER EC's firing is not true.....and we see few remaining members now EC and his generation are all about gone. The reason that the workers preach against other churches and their finances etc, is because the workers are not taught what a young worker really should be doing and that is preaching the simple gospel of Christ. The young workers will not get progression in the work unless they become a sycophant of a particular older worker....those young workers who try to keep it as individual as possible often find themselves on the edge of the work if not actually pushed out due to the lack of idolation and adulation of some older worker(s). I've seen younger workers, particularly brother workers, leave the work because they knew that they never could measure up to the idolatry of older workers. That wasn't why they went into the work. The older workers are preaching the work mostly these days because they never had the opportunity to enlarge their pastoral knowledge deeper into the scriptures where they could draw new sermons and give more understanding of the love of God in all of it.....JMO
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 3, 2014 11:05:07 GMT -5
BTW, I noticed Partaker is back with us...thank you for coming on board again Partaker! Long time no hear!
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Post by rational on Sept 3, 2014 13:07:21 GMT -5
It may be much like that to you, rat, however it is not much like it to me at all. I would have to wonder why. Documents that were not to be seen were burned. The letters of incorporation were to be burned.I am guessing that the primary reason you responded was actually to start a debate about it and then short circuit that process by saying the subject is closed to you. If I were to listen to your sage advice it would, in reality provide you with the last word which is probably what you want. But the burning of documents by those in power is a time honored way to to deny information from the rank and file. Had hiding/destroying information in the 1 st century not been so easy things might be very different. Think about what might have been destroyed that we do not yet even know about.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 14:00:55 GMT -5
BTW, I noticed Partaker is back with us...thank you for coming on board again Partaker! Long time no hear! Thank you for your welcoming remarks, I do look in from time to time to see what is going on and I have noticed that quite a few contributors are missing, probably recharging their batteries no doubt. A break is sometimes necessary and welcomed, as this helps us from becoming exhausted and overwhelmed. Partaker
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Post by bubbles on Sept 3, 2014 18:15:40 GMT -5
Rational and Dennis
Burning documents one way to get rid of evidence. Or Hiding it locking it away. Eg ancient scrolls.
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Post by fixit on Sept 3, 2014 18:30:28 GMT -5
Rational and Dennis Burning documents one way to get rid of evidence. Or Hiding it locking it away. Eg ancient scrolls. Wasn't Willis's request for a locked office one of the issues that led to Didsbury changing hands?
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Post by rational on Sept 3, 2014 18:44:46 GMT -5
Rational and Dennis Burning documents one way to get rid of evidence. Or Hiding it locking it away. Eg ancient scrolls. Generally, hiding them away is done by people who wish to preserve them so they will not be destroyed.
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