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Post by withlove on Dec 18, 2015 0:43:45 GMT -5
Of all the needy people and situations that money could go too...
I'd feel sick if I realized I unknowingly helped finance Frandle's court costs, or that LW is living on what I expected to go to needs of the workers and the kingdom.
Medical and missionary costs and helping poor friends and victims and disabled or elderly and convention and travel costs....no one knows if their money is going to that or to support the insupportable.
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Post by rational on Dec 18, 2015 1:43:03 GMT -5
Someone asked not long ago whatever happened to Leslie White, the overseer from Colorado. Well, here's the latest update I could find on this subject. Any comments? If LW had access why would there be a question of laws broken? Sounds like an ethical consideration.
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Post by faune on Dec 18, 2015 2:40:15 GMT -5
If LW had access why would there be a question of laws broken? Sounds like an ethical consideration. Rational ~ That was a quote from an article located on Ilylo's TLT information site. It may be an ethical consideration, but if the friends willed the money to to be used as he saw fit, that could include anything he deemed necessary ~ including his own retirement fund, IMHO?
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Post by fixit on Dec 18, 2015 18:17:31 GMT -5
Some overseers have kept some of the friends trust fund for themselves after they left the work, to buy a home for themselves and start a business. That's a very serious allegation Nathan. What proof do you have?
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Post by faune on Dec 18, 2015 22:39:40 GMT -5
That's a very serious allegation Nathan. What proof do you have? There was an overseer named John B... I believe, it was mentioned here on TMB.... Another worker from Greece also. Maybe, Faune can put her gift/talent of bringing back those old posts for us. I don't know how to bring back the old posts. Nathan ~ Perhaps you can check with Done4now (aka ckirkham) who reported on TMB in 2012 about Howard Mooney legal efforts to keep his name out of the Guinness Book of Records for being the beneficiary in 1200 trust funds from people unrelated to him? He said he personally saw the expensive lawyer's bill for his services, too. Perhaps his relatives were among the "inner circle" of accountants who served the overseer and manage their money accounts, including personal investments (real estate & stock market) for them? No doubt these trust funds go into the millions from reports in the past? Perhaps you should check out the Money Thread on TMB for additional information? Not exactly the poor and homeless ministry that workers make claims to in gospel meetings, eh? You might start with these two threads? professing.proboards.com/thread/19204/workers-little-interest-days?page=21&scrollTo=677689 professing.proboards.com/thread/22327/money-matters-challenge-overseers-workers Money Matters ~ Challenge to Overseers and Workers
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Post by faune on Dec 18, 2015 23:07:41 GMT -5
Someone asked not long ago whatever happened to Leslie White, the overseer from Colorado. Well, here's the latest update I could find on this subject. Any comments? [/strong][/quote]I think sometimes that Head Workers wonder why anyone would make such a comment as the statement quoted by Faune above. They shouldn't wonder when there is zero transparency and accountability around money.
Evan Jones is the only Head Worker to provide transparency around it in his affidavit. And at least in Victoria they have a registered charity about which more details will be revealed in due course. If the group was transparent and accountable about money and put in some structures around it then there would be fewer comments like the above.
As it stands it's as easy as anything for a Head Worker to leave, encourage his friendly trustees to provide him with balance in the account and use money, faithfully given by others, to do what he wants. (I'm not saying this occurred with LW as I simply don't know).
Change will only come when those who supply the money demand some transparency and accountability around it. [/quote] Ross ~ I agree with your statement above! I was just quoting what I read recently on another 2x2 information site, The Lying Truth, owned by Ilylo. (The link to this article is provided again below.)
However, the lack of financial accountability among the overseers seemingly has been a concern for many years, perhaps going back to Wm. Irvine, who collected and managed the funds for the workers under him? Personally, I doubt Ilylo would report this unless it had become a concern recently within the 2x2 camp due to trust fund monies disappearing after was "dethroned" from his overseer position in Colorado due to his reported inappropriate sexual behavior.
[/strong] P.S. If these funds were willed to the overseer for the benefit of the ministry, technically it would appear the overseer would have the final say regarding for what they were used ~ even as a retirement account for himself, if he deemed necessary?
[/p]
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Post by faune on Dec 19, 2015 1:03:36 GMT -5
Nathan ~ Perhaps you can check with Done4now (aka ckirkham) who reported on TMB in 2012 about Howard Mooney legal efforts to keep his name out of the Guinness Book of Records for being the beneficiary in 1200 trust funds from people unrelated to him? He said he personally saw the expensive lawyer's bill for his services, too. Perhaps his relatives were among the "inner circle" of accountants who served the overseer and manage their money accounts, including personal investments (real estate & stock market) for them? No doubt these trust funds go into the millions from reports in the past? Perhaps you should check out the Money Thread on TMB for additional information? Not exactly the poor and homeless ministry that workers make claims to in gospel meetings, eh? You might start with these two threads? professing.proboards.com/thread/19204/workers-little-interest-days?page=21&scrollTo=677689 Workers Are Getting Little Interest These Days
professing.proboards.com/thread/22327/money-matters-challenge-overseers-workers Money Matters ~ Challenge to Overseers and Workers The friends in Oregon, Montana, S. Idaho, and Wy. states Love and respect Uncle Howard's loving, kind and compassionate ministry as the Overseer. So, I am NOT too surprised many of them wanted to leave their wills/inheritance for the furtherance of the gospel under his care/responsibility. The overseer is in charge of the friends trust fund.
I can understand to those who don't know how it works can twist the facts, he has deceived/conned these people/friends to give their money to him unwillingly.... When the overseer has stepped down as an overseer, or leave the work, he doesn't take a dime of the friend trust fund with him. The Overseer is just a person has been selected to look after the friends trust fund, it's NOT for him to keep any of the money for himself, or for his retirement money. When the overseer steps down he entrusts the friends trust fund over to the next overseer to look after.
I was on Howard Mooney's staff from 1986-94. He was one in a million Overseer! The staff loved him dearly for his compassionate, kind, considerate, and he treated all his staff equally with respect. The friends and workers prospered under his administration. Nathan ~ I have no doubt Howard Mooney was well liked in his area. However, we were not talking about him, but about ; It appears that he had oversight of some trust fund accounts that were emptied out and came into question after his departure as overseer from Colorado? Since the overseer has the final say over these trust funds accounts, I feel some explanation probably is in order here as a result. Don't you agree?
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Post by faune on Dec 19, 2015 1:10:01 GMT -5
The friends in Oregon, Montana, S. Idaho, and Wy. states Love and respect Uncle Howard's loving, kind and compassionate ministry as the Overseer. So, I am NOT too surprised many of them wanted to leave their wills/inheritance for the furtherance of the gospel under his care/responsibility. The overseer is in charge of the friends trust fund.
I can understand to those who don't know how it works can twist the facts, he has deceived/conned these people/friends to give their money to him unwillingly.... When the overseer has stepped down as an overseer, or leave the work, he doesn't take a dime of the friend trust fund with him. The Overseer is just a person has been selected to look after the friends trust fund, it's NOT for him to keep any of the money for himself, or for his retirement money. When the overseer steps down he entrusts the friends trust fund over to the next overseer to look after.
I was on Howard Mooney's staff from 1986-94. He was one in a million Overseer! The staff loved him dearly for his compassionate, kind, considerate, and he treated all his staff equally with respect. The friends and workers prospered under his administration. Nathan ~ I have no doubt Howard Mooney was well liked in his area. However, we were not talking about him, but about . [/strong] It appears that he had oversight of some trust fund accounts that were emptied out and came into question after his departure as overseer from Colorado? Since the overseer has the final say over these trust funds accounts, I feel some explanation probably is in order here as a result. Don't you agree? [/quote] P.S. ~ Perhaps it was the Cookie Monster who emptied the cookie jar above?
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Post by faune on Dec 19, 2015 1:15:52 GMT -5
Nathan ~ I have no doubt Howard Mooney was well liked in his area. However, we were not talking about him, but about ; It appears that he had oversight of some trust fund accounts that were emptied out and came into question after his departure as overseer from Colorado? Since the overseer has the final say over these trust funds accounts, I feel some explanation probably is in order here as a result. Don't you agree? Nathan ~ I'm sure you are right above that if emptied the trust fund accounts, he wouldn't have been the first overseer who helped himself to the "kitty." I remember reading in the past that Jack Carroll invested the friends monies in real estate investments and that George Walker did the same with the stock market certificates and Eldon T. in financial get rich schemes. Obviously, some of the overseers have no problem with investing the friends' monies, even in the millions, in whatever pursuits that please them, including a personal retreat for himself and sister worker/mistress in Jack Carroll's case (see quote below). News Flash ~ Nathan ~ Not all the overseers have scruples ~ power corrupts ~ especially at the top of the totem pole! Here's that quote for your information from the thread entitled, Workers Are Getting Little Interest These Days, re-quoted by me on Page 12.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 19, 2015 1:32:07 GMT -5
Nathan ~ I'm sure you are right above that if emptied the trust fund accounts, he wouldn't have been the first overseer who helped himself to the "kitty." I remember reading in the past that Jack Jackson invested the friends monies in real estate investments and that George Walker did the same with the stock market certificates. Obviously, some of the overseers have no problem with investing the friends' monies in what ever pursuits that please them, including a personal retreat for himself in Jack Carroll's case? The church elders must have two trusted friends approval when the overseer wants to take out money for whatever reasons, without their approval the overseer can't have the money. That is one of the reasons Jesus has saved most of the worker with the Love of money for NOT having much money during the year. Some overseers can't control their love for money at their disposal or finger tips.... The LOVE of Money allowed Satan entered into Judas' heart weakness and lead him to betray Jesus. Nathan, How do you come by this knowledge? You state that:
"The church elders must have two trusted friends approve when the overseer wants to take out money for whatever reasons, without their approval the overseer can't have the money. That is one of the reasons Jesus has saved most of the worker with the Love of money for NOT having much money. Some overseers can't control their love for money at their disposal or finger tips."
How do YOU know this when many of the rest of us lowly 2x2's or ex's have never been privy to that fact?
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Post by faune on Dec 19, 2015 2:02:35 GMT -5
Some overseers have kept some of the friends trust fund for themselves after they left the work, to buy a home for themselves and start a business. That's a very serious allegation Nathan. What proof do you have? Fixit ~ Would you accept this quote on this very same page regarding the above? Also, if you research this out further, you will discover that George Walker invested a lot of the friends monies given him in trust in stock market certificates back in time. I read this on a thread on TMB in the past regarding overseers Wills and Trust Fund Accounts. George Walker seemingly pioneered the investment business when it came to the money given him by the friends and did well at it. Willis Propp also left a paper trail in this area, which also caught up to him back in 1999 when the friends discovered the financial deals he had been hiding from them.
Like it says in Ecclesiastes ~ "There's nothing new under the sun!" HISTORY does repeat itself over and over again and POWER corrupts the holder.
Also, I mentioned myself on this thread below (scroll down to the bottom of Page 2) about George Walker and Jack Carroll and the money they accrued while overseers from investments. Both were good businessmen in their day. Please note that this information came from another short thread about workers/overseers and their handling of wills and trust funds left to them by the friends.
professing.proboards.com/thread/17985?page=2
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Post by faune on Dec 19, 2015 10:57:01 GMT -5
Nathan, How do you come by this knowledge? You state that:
"The church elders must have two trusted friends approve when the overseer wants to take out money for whatever reasons, without their approval the overseer can't have the money. That is one of the reasons Jesus has saved most of the worker with the Love of money for NOT having much money. Some overseers can't control their love for money at their disposal or finger tips."
How do YOU know this when many of the rest of us lowly 2x2's or ex's have never been privy to that fact? hahaha... It was my suggestion... I think the trusted funds friends or whoever in charge of the money, must have a better system in place to prevent overseer like to put his hands in the cookie jar to be repeated again with another overseer somewhere down the road. They should and MUST hire an attorney draw up agreement so the overseer or whoever in charge of the friends trust fund can't STEAL the money for themselves. Nathan ~ It seems some overseers do take liberties with their hands in the cookie jar, because they have the final say regarding these Trusts accounts. As a result, they tell their "trusted friends" in charge of the money to shell out and they do so without question. As far as integrity goes and ethics, that's another topic altogether. In addition, let's not forget Willis Propp and what the friends learned about his financial deals involving wills in Alberta, Canada, which were pretty unsavory for an overseer. In addition, check out his testimony under oath regarding these trust funds and accrued funds within the 2x2 organization. Also, check out this quote below from the old thread in 2011 entitled, "I Am So Amazed."
www.thelibertyconnection.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=305:propp-willis-testimony-dorey-hearing&catid=21:history&Itemid=32 Willis Propp's Testimony under Oath (regarding 2x2 Finances)
professing.proboards.com/thread/17920/amazed?page=8 I Am So Amazed
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Post by emy on Dec 19, 2015 20:27:06 GMT -5
AS long as we are speculating, could it be that when LW was moved out of CO the friends in charge of the trust account chose not to have that responsibility so the funds were moved to another account??
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Post by jondough on Dec 19, 2015 21:40:55 GMT -5
For what it all means, I still go back to the fact that I don't see any workers living the highlife.
I'm good with this.
Our good ol Dick Middleton wouldn't even wear a clothes bought from anything other than a second hand store. He was a good man. Rob seems right down that same line.
Don't get me wrong, there are always the bad apple in every crowd. But for the most part, I'm comfortable with our finances.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2015 4:58:02 GMT -5
For what it all means, I still go back to the fact that I don't see any workers living the highlife. I'm good with this. Our good ol Dick Middleton wouldn't even wear a clothes bought from anything other than a second hand store. He was a good man. Rob seems right down that same line. Don't get me wrong, there are always the bad apple in every crowd. But for the most part, I'm comfortable with our finances. I never knew enough to know whether I was comfortable or uncomfortable! A very painful split occurred in Victoria, Australia some years ago which, amongst other things, involved money and ownership of assets. JD, I'm interested in whether you know the financial arrangements in your state - who are the trustees, what funds are accumulated - in order to have the level of comfort you have? I ASSume in my state its the overseer mark huddle that administers the trust who helps him I don't know or care to know. nor do I care to know how much is collected either its really none of my business even though i donate to them. in the bible Jesus doesn't really seem to care who had the money bag or how much was accumulated or how it was spent. can I do any differenet? leave it in Gods hands where there is true justice.
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Post by jondough on Dec 21, 2015 8:56:26 GMT -5
For what it all means, I still go back to the fact that I don't see any workers living the highlife. I'm good with this. Our good ol Dick Middleton wouldn't even wear a clothes bought from anything other than a second hand store. He was a good man. Rob seems right down that same line. Don't get me wrong, there are always the bad apple in every crowd. But for the most part, I'm comfortable with our finances. I never knew enough to know whether I was comfortable or uncomfortable! A very painful split occurred in Victoria, Australia some years ago which, amongst other things, involved money and ownership of assets. JD, I'm interested in whether you know the financial arrangements in your state - who are the trustees, what funds are accumulated - in order to have the level of comfort you have? In our state the account is handled by more than one party. The first is a very trust worthy business man that is very successful on his own. Does a ton for the workers. There is another VERY trust worthy family that the Mr, is his accountant, that also watches over the account. His wife - VERY trust worthy, does all the travel arrangements for all the workers including all over the world - which is where most of this money goes to. So then when the account is used, it's not just the overseer that has control, but there are several senior workers as well that instruct her on travel and other things. It's not one person in control of everything. I have never looked at the books, but I can guarantee you that these people keep VERY accurate and detailed records as to where every penny has gone. All parties are VERY VERY trust worthy. On top of it all, no one person could do anything shady. It would have to be a conspiracy - which would be about as great a chance as there being a a gigantic hallow space underneath the ground where people live.
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Post by hberry on Dec 21, 2015 10:29:16 GMT -5
For what it all means, I still go back to the fact that I don't see any workers living the highlife. I'm good with this. Our good ol Dick Middleton wouldn't even wear a clothes bought from anything other than a second hand store. He was a good man. Rob seems right down that same line. Don't get me wrong, there are always the bad apple in every crowd. But for the most part, I'm comfortable with our finances. I never knew enough to know whether I was comfortable or uncomfortable! A very painful split occurred in Victoria, Australia some years ago which, amongst other things, involved money and ownership of assets. JD, I'm interested in whether you know the financial arrangements in your state - who are the trustees, what funds are accumulated - in order to have the level of comfort you have? Like you, I never knew enough to know whether I was comfortable with the arrangements or not, nor even how I'd go about determining if I were comfortable or not as the financial aspect of the fellowship is not an "encouraged" topic. Nonetheless, I never thought much about it until I started attending another church. It was a breath of fresh air to experience financial transparency for the first time.
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Post by xna on Dec 21, 2015 10:47:39 GMT -5
In our state the account is handled by more than one party. The first is a very trust worthy business man that is very successful on his own. Does a ton for the workers. There is another VERY trust worthy family that the Mr, is his accountant, that also watches over the account. His wife - VERY trust worthy, does all the travel arrangements for all the workers including all over the world - which is where most of this money goes to. So then when the account is used, it's not just the overseer that has control, but there are several senior workers as well that instruct her on travel and other things. It's not one person in control of everything. I have never looked at the books, but I can guarantee you that these people keep VERY accurate and detailed records as to where every penny has gone. All parties are VERY VERY trust worthy. On top of it all, no one person could do anything shady. It would have to be a conspiracy - which would be about as great a chance as there being a a gigantic hallow space underneath the ground where people live. It sounds like in your area, they have taken the money very seriously and given it a high priority. To me, if the giver is happy it's not a problem. I wonder then why they haven't taken this same approach to tidying up basic beliefs like; exclusive / non-exclusive, trinity / no trinity, divorce & remarriage, etc.
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Post by rational on Dec 21, 2015 11:03:40 GMT -5
In our state the account is handled by more than one party. The first is a very trust worthy business man that is very successful on his own. Does a ton for the workers. There is another VERY trust worthy family that the Mr, is his accountant, that also watches over the account. His wife - VERY trust worthy, does all the travel arrangements for all the workers including all over the world - which is where most of this money goes to. So then when the account is used, it's not just the overseer that has control, but there are several senior workers as well that instruct her on travel and other things. It's not one person in control of everything. I have never looked at the books, but I can guarantee you that these people keep VERY accurate and detailed records as to where every penny has gone. All parties are VERY VERY trust worthy. On top of it all, no one person could do anything shady. It would have to be a conspiracy - which would be about as great a chance as there being a a gigantic hallow space underneath the ground where people live. Bernie Madoff and Charles Ponzi were considered VERY VERY trust worthy. (For the non-US readers, Bernie Madoff committed what is considered to be the largest financial fraud in U.S. history. Everyone trusted him!)
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Post by jondough on Dec 21, 2015 11:16:08 GMT -5
In our state the account is handled by more than one party. The first is a very trust worthy business man that is very successful on his own. Does a ton for the workers. There is another VERY trust worthy family that the Mr, is his accountant, that also watches over the account. His wife - VERY trust worthy, does all the travel arrangements for all the workers including all over the world - which is where most of this money goes to. So then when the account is used, it's not just the overseer that has control, but there are several senior workers as well that instruct her on travel and other things. It's not one person in control of everything. I have never looked at the books, but I can guarantee you that these people keep VERY accurate and detailed records as to where every penny has gone. All parties are VERY VERY trust worthy. On top of it all, no one person could do anything shady. It would have to be a conspiracy - which would be about as great a chance as there being a a gigantic hallow space underneath the ground where people live. It sounds like in your area, they have taken the money very seriously and given it a high priority. To me, if the giver is happy it's not a problem. I wonder then why they haven't taken this same approach to tidying up basic beliefs like; exclusive / non-exclusive, trinity / no trinity, divorce & remarriage, etc. They pretty much have; Exclusive/non-exclusive: Every worker will preach as well as tell you that we are “the one true way” Trinity: Every worker will preach as well as tell you that the Trinity is false doctrine. Divorce & remarriage: In all areas it is discouraged, and considered wrong. Some areas are more tolerable than others, and understand that in certain circumstances, there is no other option. Different areas handle it differently when it does happen. Our area “takes your part away”. No taking part in meetings, no taking part in the emblems. That is, until your spouse dies. The good part about this philosophy is, you can then murder your ex spouse, get forgiveness for the murder and get your part back. Of course, you might be taking part from prison. That would be the downside .
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Post by jondough on Dec 21, 2015 11:18:14 GMT -5
In our state the account is handled by more than one party. The first is a very trust worthy business man that is very successful on his own. Does a ton for the workers. There is another VERY trust worthy family that the Mr, is his accountant, that also watches over the account. His wife - VERY trust worthy, does all the travel arrangements for all the workers including all over the world - which is where most of this money goes to. So then when the account is used, it's not just the overseer that has control, but there are several senior workers as well that instruct her on travel and other things. It's not one person in control of everything. I have never looked at the books, but I can guarantee you that these people keep VERY accurate and detailed records as to where every penny has gone. All parties are VERY VERY trust worthy. On top of it all, no one person could do anything shady. It would have to be a conspiracy - which would be about as great a chance as there being a a gigantic hallow space underneath the ground where people live. Bernie Madoff and Charles Ponzi were considered VERY VERY trust worthy. (For the non-US readers, Bernie Madoff committed what is considered to be the largest financial fraud in U.S. history. Everyone trusted him!)By whom? I would venture to guess that most people that gave his company their money to invest didn't know Bernie.
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Post by blandie on Dec 21, 2015 15:55:31 GMT -5
By whom? I would venture to guess that most people that gave his company their money to invest didn't know Bernie. You'd guess wrong - lots of folks testified how he gave his clients lots of personal attention and came across as very interested in protecting their savings and very trustworthy and not flamboyant but very honest. They just trusted him personally and because everyone else seemed to have the same opinion nobody asked questions. He got money mostly from fellow jews - even family - who trusted him because they thought he was one of them and from charities doing work that he volunteered to promote. He never gave detailed accounting of what their money was doing just said they were getting great returns and it turned out there was nothing behind those claims and the assets were draining away - some to bad investments and some to spending on self and family in the background and some to expenses to keep up the front. Same sort of thing thats been exploited by others who've mishandled money entrusted to them over the years before and since - grooming people with good reputations and playing on peoples unquestioning trust and exploiting that the tendency in people is to automatically assume someone is trustworthy just because other people they know trusts him or her. There was an interesting article in forbes about how that works that I remember thinking it wasn't so very different than the Jimmie J. fiasco under Eldon and like with Madoff his big investor - ET - may have got his initial fund back but others lost everything and things looked rosy until it broke that the bubble had already burst.
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Post by jondough on Dec 21, 2015 16:42:43 GMT -5
By whom? I would venture to guess that most people that gave his company their money to invest didn't know Bernie. You'd guess wrong - lots of folks testified how he gave his clients lots of personal attention and came across as very interested in protecting their savings and very trustworthy and not flamboyant but very honest. They just trusted him personally and because everyone else seemed to have the same opinion nobody asked questions. He got money mostly from fellow jews - even family - who trusted him because they thought he was one of them and from charities doing work that he volunteered to promote. He never gave detailed accounting of what their money was doing just said they were getting great returns and it turned out there was nothing behind those claims and the assets were draining away - some to bad investments and some to spending on self and family in the background and some to expenses to keep up the front. Same sort of thing thats been exploited by others who've mishandled money entrusted to them over the years before and since - grooming people with good reputations and playing on peoples unquestioning trust and exploiting that the tendency in people is to automatically assume someone is trustworthy just because other people they know trusts him or her. There was an interesting article in forbes about how that works that I remember thinking it wasn't so very different than the Jimmie J. fiasco under Eldon and like with Madoff his big investor - ET - may have got his initial fund back but others lost everything and things looked rosy until it broke that the bubble had already burst. Sorry to say you are wrong. Although there may have been several individual investors, the majority of the money invested into Bernie Madock's company were other investment banks & funds. Those funds were made up of individual investors that would never have met Madock. In regards to JJ, do you know the particulars as to how it went down? People/media many times and on this particular case don't always know the whole story, or at least don't like to tell the whole story. Sometimes a partially true story makes a more interesting story.
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Post by rational on Dec 21, 2015 20:42:40 GMT -5
Bernie Madoff and Charles Ponzi were considered VERY VERY trust worthy. (For the non-US readers, Bernie Madoff committed what is considered to be the largest financial fraud in U.S. history. Everyone trusted him!)By whom? I would venture to guess that most people that gave his company their money to invest didn't know Bernie. I think many who gave him money to invest knew him personally. Just to pick one case that was in the news: Shapiro considered Madoff to be like a son. Shapiro is said to have invested with Madoff going back to the 1960s. He and his foundation reportedly lost some $550 million. Madoff received $250 million around December 1, 2008 from Shapiro, who was one of Madoff's oldest friends and one of his biggest financial backers. Shapiro expressed his sadness and disappointment at his friend’s dishonest dealings.Personal connection is required get people to invest hundreds of millions without some solid reason other than the word of a friend.
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Post by rational on Dec 21, 2015 20:55:40 GMT -5
Sorry to say you are wrong. Although there may have been several individual investors, the majority of the money invested into Bernie Madock's company were other investment banks & funds. Those funds were made up of individual investors that would never have met Madock. So your contention is that fund managers do not rely on person connections when they invest their funds? The biggest question following the crash was "Why did people put so much trust in Madoff? Why did they not see the warning signs?"
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Post by jondough on Dec 21, 2015 22:53:45 GMT -5
Many of those investment scams work on the same principle. A promised (unrealistic) return on investment. When they come through over and over, friends hear about it, the people invested, invest more. It grows exponentially. Investors are given official looking documentation. They're happy as can be. They don't question. The company looks official with prestigious offices. Most of the employees are not even aware of what is going on.
Check out the guys that sold the same pay phones over and over to many different investors. Same thing. It's not trust in a person, but trust in a company that is coming through month in, month out. Even when people decide to withdraw their money, it's there when they ask for it...Other people's money that is.
Much different than knowing someone since childhood. Knowing their integrity. Knowing what they stand for. Knowing their family. Being friends with many of their friends and family. Going to church with them on a weekly basis. Knowing these people would probably die before they would steal from anyone. A trust built on nothing but being themselves without anything to gain materially.
Much much different scenario.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 22, 2015 3:43:19 GMT -5
I never knew enough to know whether I was comfortable or uncomfortable! A very painful split occurred in Victoria, Australia some years ago which, amongst other things, involved money and ownership of assets. JD, I'm interested in whether you know the financial arrangements in your state - who are the trustees, what funds are accumulated - in order to have the level of comfort you have? In our state the account is handled by more than one party. The first is a very trust worthy business man that is very successful on his own. Does a ton for the workers. There is another VERY trust worthy family that the Mr, is his accountant, that also watches over the account. His wife - VERY trust worthy, does all the travel arrangements for all the workers including all over the world - which is where most of this money goes to. So then when the account is used, it's not just the overseer that has control, but there are several senior workers as well that instruct her on travel and other things. It's not one person in control of everything. I have never looked at the books, but I can guarantee you that these people keep VERY accurate and detailed records as to where every penny has gone. All parties are VERY VERY trust worthy. On top of it all, no one person could do anything shady. It would have to be a conspiracy - which would be about as great a chance as there being a a gigantic hallow space underneath the ground where people live. I appreciate your answer, and I don't have a problem with the arrangement. I'm just thinking here -- well, two observations. (1) How come the friends don't know about this arrangement. It's been obvious to me for a long time that some few people know about this, but why is it kept so secretive. I know workers have even told people that it's none of their business what the workers do with their money, but I for one want to give true answers when people ask questions. I've had strangers laugh in my face for saying that "the money just shows up where needed." Is it simply the same old "don't ask the wrong question" syndrome, or is it something else? (2) It's obvious that the workers have seen the need to safeguard their money in this way. But then, doesn't that make it a bit silly of one of the friends to say that they have no worry what is done with the money given to the workers? Or maybe better put, why make a faith claim that the money will be appropriately accounted for if such safeguards are in place to prevent the "trusted godly persons" from embezzlement? It seems to me that the only reason this whole matter becomes so peculiar to the workers is because they cannot represent themselves as any kind of legitimate organization. What will happen when someone brings suit against the ministry? In the end it's the government's currency, and it's only worth what the government permits it to be worth in these modern times.
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Post by withlove on Dec 22, 2015 4:22:38 GMT -5
In our state the account is handled by more than one party. The first is a very trust worthy business man that is very successful on his own. Does a ton for the workers. There is another VERY trust worthy family that the Mr, is his accountant, that also watches over the account. His wife - VERY trust worthy, does all the travel arrangements for all the workers including all over the world - which is where most of this money goes to. So then when the account is used, it's not just the overseer that has control, but there are several senior workers as well that instruct her on travel and other things. It's not one person in control of everything. I have never looked at the books, but I can guarantee you that these people keep VERY accurate and detailed records as to where every penny has gone. All parties are VERY VERY trust worthy. On top of it all, no one person could do anything shady. It would have to be a conspiracy - which would be about as great a chance as there being a a gigantic hallow space underneath the ground where people live. I appreciate your answer, and I don't have a problem with the arrangement. I'm just thinking here -- well, two observations. (1) How come the friends don't know about this arrangement. It's been obvious to me for a long time that some few people know about this, but why is it kept so secretive. I know workers have even told people that it's none of their business what the workers do with their money, but I for one want to give true answers when people ask questions. I've had strangers laugh in my face for saying that "the money just shows up where needed." Is it simply the same old "don't ask the wrong question" syndrome, or is it something else? (2) It's obvious that the workers have seen the need to safeguard their money in this way. But then, doesn't that make it a bit silly of one of the friends to say that they have no worry what is done with the money given to the workers? Or maybe better put, why make a faith claim that the money will be appropriately accounted for if such safeguards are in place to prevent the "trusted godly persons" from embezzlement? It seems to me that the only reason this whole matter becomes so peculiar to the workers is because they cannot represent themselves as any kind of legitimate organization. What will happen when someone brings suit against the ministry? In the end it's the government's currency, and it's only worth what the government permits it to be worth in these modern times. They may borrow from Frandle's strategy and say the ministry doesn't exist. Kind of like how Scientology says there is no Church of Scientology when it serves them to do so in lawsuits. It's beneficial to be a ministry or a church in some situations, and even the only one that counts, and sometimes it's easier to not be.
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